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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10361 Posts
On February 20 2024 15:48 NoGSLnoGOAT wrote: You really can't be even GOAT contender if you haven't won multiple Code S AND premier tournaments outside of Korea. Robbing empty houses doesn't count. Just to be clear, when you say empty houses, do you mean GSLs? ;D | ||
TheOneAboveU
Germany3367 Posts
On February 20 2024 07:36 Waxangel wrote: Dark fan riot starts now I haven't used my pitchfork in so long that it's all rusty. Shaking my fist wildly in the direction of Mize's name on the screen right now! | ||
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youaremysin
119 Posts
On February 20 2024 09:03 HolydaKing wrote: Mvp was the most dominant player in the most competetive era, where everyone was still hyped about the game and finding the best strategies & mastering them. At least as far as korean SC2 goes, the first 3 yeas were more meaningful than the last 6 years of SC2 in my eyes. So I got no problems with Mvp being on the list, I might even agree with him being on the 4th spot thinking about it. I say Rogue gets #3 cause of his achievements. Isn't korean SC2 most competitive era post kespa switch? | ||
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stilt
France2751 Posts
On February 20 2024 16:11 youaremysin wrote: Isn't korean SC2 most competitive era post kespa switch? It was, imo his only truly impressive feat is his gsl final vs life. Otherwise, everyone was pretty shit Ok he has some other good games like the one against innovation during season 1 but I'm really surprised to see a wol player being rank 4. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
But in retrospect i am now really curious how do you fit 4 players into 3 spots and Dark definitely has better resume than TY or Rain even if his unclutchness is there, dare I say. | ||
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Parser
Italy87 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33459 Posts
On February 20 2024 16:41 Parser wrote: For me it is really strange seeing MVP on this list. It feels like "Di Stefano is the GOAT of soccer". Furthermore, thinking that someone among Innovation, Dark, Rogue, Reynor, Maru, Serral (ok, Serral and Maru definitely will be in) won't be on this list just feels odd to me. I mean, you say this about Di Stefano, but would you also apply that to Pele and Maradona? Personally, I very much dislike the culture of many modern sports where narratives arbitrarily decide the cutoff point at where the past stops "mattering." That why I think baseball culture is quite wonderful, because of the major world sports, it makes a true effort to judge players in their own time and respect its past. | ||
Poopi
France12904 Posts
In sc2, the peak popularity / competitiveness was HotS, then it slowly begun to fade, and now it's barely competitive anymore. It makes it pretty difficult to compare across eras | ||
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Kitai
United States876 Posts
Not arguing that he should have made top 10 here, but he definitely had a case in his prime, and I think a lot of other people followed that thought process since he made the Ro8 in the GOAT voting tournament and was only stopped by the eventual popular opinion winner, INno. As far as MVP goes, I had been saying it in previous threads, and I agree with Ret here, I don't think he deserves to be top 4 in the "all time" list. Especially not over INno. But hey, it's not my list, and I respect the effort put in =). Still waiting with baited breath to see how Serral and Maru are placed, though I'm starting to get the sense that Maru is gonna be #1 since he was great in proleague and is the best GSL player ever. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
If we're talking purely about who the best players of all time are, you'd probably have a ranking of pretty much all players currently around. LotV is more challenging mechanically than the previous two games and I think the level in that regard, at least, has gone up significantly. The game is now optimized to a degree it arguably wasn't in the past, there's not a lot left to figure out unless a patch hits (which is almost never - also contributing to the game being figured out), et cetera. But part of the greatness of players like Mvp is precisely that the game wasn't figured out at the time. People were experimenting with all sorts of nonsense, the game was wildly imbalanced, maps were a total mess and hardly anything was streamlined. Players that succeeded then were those that could make the most sense of it and explore ways to consistently abuse broken things. That's a completely different skill, in my view, to inching ever closer to perfection in an already refined game. Personally, a lot of players I consider greats of SC2 are exactly those that gave us something new, explored new ways to play the game, astonished with strategies or playstyles or moments of brilliance that you couldn't have seen coming. It's why Mvp vs Squirtle remains the greatest final in the game's history for me. It certainly wasn't the best, but I've never seen another series with as much tension, a series that developed an internal story so quickly and one where truly nothing was off the table - you simply couldn't predict what would happen next. Mvp ultimately had no right to win that series, but he did anyway. I couldn't tell you how. Squirtle messed up a lot, but so did Mvp. The level of play was certainly nothing near today's, but who cares? Greatness is also about those moments you remember when you look back years later, and Mvp probably gave us more of those than anyone else. | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa286 Posts
But... Dark < Rain, TY, soO is sus as all hell lmao. | ||
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Parser
Italy87 Posts
On February 20 2024 17:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, you say this about Di Stefano, but would you also apply that to Pele and Maradona? Personally, I very much dislike the culture of many modern sports where narratives arbitrarily decide the cutoff point at where the past stops "mattering." That why I think baseball culture is quite wonderful, because of the major world sports, it makes a true effort to judge players in their own time and respect its past. I understand your point of view and I am not able to uncontroversially decide if it is worse than mine. I just feel that sports evolve and with this evolution "older" achievements "fade". It is clear that the difficulty here is on the meaning of "older". I am not an expert of baseball so I am not going to speak about it but regarding soccer the difference between matches seventy years old and nowadays games is so great that no-one would pick a player of those times as goat. Just to try to be clearer for me deciding a goat means finding an inherently subjective way of weighting how much someone wins, how much he is better than people who played at his time and how much the game has evolved since his career (making his achievements fading). I do not think that this can be done in an uncontroversially way: in my opinion wings was so unrefined with respect to lotv that MVP achievements "faded" and I wouldn't put him in SC2 top 10 | ||
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RealityTheGreat
China564 Posts
because still have Maru Dark Rogue Serral Notice me if they do this | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24229 Posts
now the real trickiness begins, because everyone knows Maru Serral Rogue are left, but in which order ? I can't wait to read the Rogue article, and I for sure hope it's the last  (btw, serious question : will you talk about Life and how he would have ranked without the matchfixing scandals in your #15-11 articles ?) | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland25894 Posts
On February 20 2024 16:41 Parser wrote: For me it is really strange seeing MVP on this list. It feels like "Di Stefano is the GOAT of soccer". Furthermore, thinking that someone among Innovation, Dark, Rogue, Reynor, Maru, Serral (ok, Serral and Maru definitely will be in) won't be on this list just feels odd to me. Reynor,? Outrageous, demons begone I cast thee out! I mean Di Stefano is generally considered amongst the GOATs in football. Eras are massively different so I think most reasonable observers go for amongst the best of his era, so somewhere amongst the top 30 all-time. He was also apparently something of a trailblazer and his influence shaped the modern club game, as well as him being quite a modern, versatile player for his time. Some have him second to Cruyff in terms of his wider influence outside the pitch, so think it’s quite a good comparison you’ve made For me placement in the top 10 you can shift some of it around, but him at least being in that cohort is reasonable enough. 1. It’s a strategy game, so I think having a pick (probably 2, along with Rain) where actually fleshing out how a race should be played, being ahead of the curve. Mvp playing a recognisably modern style of Terran quite early in the game’s life, and him being the one ahead of that curve should count for something, although how much weight I’m unsure. But I do like to see a nod to those who laid the groundwork get some kudos and Mvp did more then almost anyone I can think of in this domain. 2. The ‘what-if?’ factor being out of his control. While nothing in If we look at contemporaries who were at least relevant players at some point in WoL who’ve stuck around and still been good players, a Gumiho or a Ryung and where they were relative to Mvp, I’d wager he still had a few good years to give if he’d avoided injury. Even with an adjusted playstyle Mvp was still hanging with the new generation up to early HoTS. That last GSL run of note his scalps included Parting and Rain when they started to get established. Going through Liquipedia and rewatching that 2013 WCS Finals set versus Inno, yeah Mvp lost but contextually to even hang with Innovation full stop, never mind with the adjustments he had to make through injury. This wasn’t Inno on the way up, this may have been relative to the field the scariest version of Innovation. He qualified for this event through the GSL he lost to Soulkey, which was considered an upset because Inno was just dominating players of all races in Proleague at the time, that very cohort who would themselves go on to dominate wider SC2 for years to come. Whereas even in his heyday Innovation was streaky enough year to year, and he was mostly checked out as a contender once he’d won that last WESG. I mean you’re talking cumulative years of Inno’s career ultimately. When this list was last done (or it may have been a big forum debate than a writer’s article) and ignoring how GSL wasn’t standardised, the G5L was on the cards since the trophy was made for Mvp. Inno was within touching distance, and Maru had not just broken the barrier of winning consecutive GSLs, but smashed it and won 4 back-to-back. The one thing Inno was lacking was a big statement Blizzcon/Katowice performance, but it was still enough for him to top the ranking. Since then, despite having years of activity, Innovation added basically nothing to his resume while Maru fleshed out his traditional gap in international weekenders, made multiple Ro4+ placings in WC events, to at least have a case of the most consistent player in those events, and won a bunch more GSLs. A guy like Zest was also quite streaky, but latterly he did make another Code S final and two heroic Katowice runs. For me longevity should be a double-edged sword that can also hurt a claim depending what you do with it otherwise such lists end up full of players with longer careers and a bigger trophy list almost by default. I shall note I’m not saying Mvp > Innovation necessarily, and I love both players but I think the latter’s career is quite illustrative. Mvp had his career cut short by injury pretty much isn’t disputed, to the degree I’d argue both Inno’s period as the terrifying Machine, and periods where he absolutely was not The Machine are both longer than Mvp’s career. As with point 1, I don’t know how much I’d weigh it, but it definitely counts for something. If there’s one player who seems likely to miss out now it seems it’s going to be Dark, but he can count himself unlucky. His whole thing is being a solid contender and consistent placer since the dawn of time itself. But versus his contemporaries of similar spans, often streaky players with high highs and low lows, he’s been more a career of creamy mids. Of the two players who are here for shorter but glorious careers, he doesn’t quite have that period of being the guy going for him. These things are tough to rank! I definitely think Dark’s niche of being a relevant playoff/champ contender for forever feels worthy of placement too, but who would he displace? | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6981 Posts
#3 Dark #2 Rogue #1 Maru and then the addendum Greatest KOREAN players of all time | ||
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Sentikoret
20 Posts
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Luolis
Finland7137 Posts
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/167018772316684289/1209419638828437554/suNU3PD.jpg?ex=65e6dacf&is=65d465cf&hm=9e0dfd4c24d3ca43b47fc556c73b286c59f469a9309ce5c7b97b0fe292c78eac&) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25894 Posts
On February 20 2024 18:34 [PkF] Wire wrote: you made a really good case for Mvp. I still don't get why Dark isn't in the top 10, but I'm all the more eager to read your explanations when you give us your #15-11 - among which he is for sure. now the real trickiness begins, because everyone knows Maru Serral Rogue are left, but in which order ? I can't wait to read the Rogue article, and I for sure hope it's the last (btw, serious question : will you talk about Life and how he would have ranked without the matchfixing scandals in your #15-11 articles ?) I think it can only be: 1st/2nd or 1st/3rd - Maru/Serral - interchangeable on preference/weightings don’t @ me folks! ^_^ 2nd/3rd - Rogue Rogue can win either head-to-head, I don’t see how he can win both. Maru versus Rogue the former has the better career way back from peak Kespa through now. A better Proleague performance, more Starleagues, more deep placements in Starleagues, where they can be directly compared. Rogue has the edge in villainy and in World Champ tier events. Serral versus Rogue they’re honours even in World Champs basically, Serral has the edge in consistency, performance through a year in wider events, and in head-to-head, where they can directly be compared. Rogue has the edge of Starleague honours, where Serral doesn’t play. People may disagree with my calculus, unless you just disqualify Serral outright for not playing Starleagues, which Miz is too sensible to do, I don’t see any weighting of achievements where Rogue places above second. If we weigh Starleagues very highly, he can displace Serral in the pecking order, but if that’s the big qualifier I don’t think anyone here would argue he’s a better Starleague player than Maru and he can’t win that head-to-head. If we rank World Golds really highly he displaces Maru, but Serral’s got him tied there, and I think Serral just has him best in a direct comparison as a tie-breaker. General premier wins and medals? From memory I think Serral just wins this even if you take away all his WCS circuit ones. I’m not sure how Miz is gonna go, I’m yet to get to that Being John Malkovich stage where I have a portal into his head, although by the end of this series and associated threads I may yet get there. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24229 Posts
On February 20 2024 19:03 WombaT wrote: I think it can only be: 1st/2nd or 1st/3rd - Maru/Serral - interchangeable on preference/weightings don’t @ me folks! ^_^ 2nd/3rd - Rogue Rogue can win either head-to-head, I don’t see how he can win both. Maru versus Rogue the former has the better career way back from peak Kespa through now. A better Proleague performance, more Starleagues, more deep placements in Starleagues, where they can be directly compared. Rogue has the edge in villainy and in World Champ tier events. Serral versus Rogue they’re honours even in World Champs basically, Serral has the edge in consistency, performance through a year in wider events, and in head-to-head, where they can directly be compared. Rogue has the edge of Starleague honours, where Serral doesn’t play. People may disagree with my calculus, unless you just disqualify Serral outright for not playing Starleagues, which Miz is too sensible to do, I don’t see any weighting of achievements where Rogue places above second. If we weigh Starleagues very highly, he can displace Serral in the pecking order, but if that’s the big qualifier I don’t think anyone here would argue he’s a better Starleague player than Maru and he can’t win that head-to-head. If we rank World Golds really highly he displaces Maru, but Serral’s got him tied there, and I think Serral just has him best in a direct comparison as a tie-breaker. General premier wins and medals? From memory I think Serral just wins this even if you take away all his WCS circuit ones. I’m not sure how Miz is gonna go, I’m yet to get to that Being John Malkovich stage where I have a portal into his head, although by the end of this series and associated threads I may yet get there. I agree with your points tbf, but the clutchness and "know how to win whatever it takes" factor of Rogue was just something else when he was on top of his game, and that aspect has been valued quite high in that ranking so far, so I don't despair | ||
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