EPTAnd as others have said it has been proven to be the most consistent method at developing top sc pros.
#4: Mvp - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 15
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Moonerz
United States444 Posts
And as others have said it has been proven to be the most consistent method at developing top sc pros. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4906 Posts
On February 26 2024 12:01 Perceivere wrote: Byun and various EU players (hello Joona Goatala), and several modern Korean players have proven that the whole teamhouse thing wasn't all it's made out to be. I myself don't get it. Starcraft was never a team sport to begin with. Perhaps to start getting it you need to consider that in the early 2000s it was very hard to come across replays and there was almost no content online, let alone people explaining the game as content creators. Hell, this forum was created to fill the need of a place to talk about BW mechanics and strategies in what... 2008? (someone maybe could do a recap of tl.net history.. that would be cool). | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3343 Posts
On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote: Form is temporary, class is permanent. Yet MMA is not on the list! MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On February 27 2024 00:22 ejozl wrote: Yet MMA is not on the list! MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it. You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt  | ||
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FFXthebest
75 Posts
“A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL” Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs | ||
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beija-flor
1 Post
2024-Serral would probably beat 2018-Serral. Does that mean his 2018 achievements are worth less than those of 2024? Of course today's skill level is higher. But that is not particularly surprising if you take into account that today's players can build on all the game knowledge and innovations that has been accumulated over the last 14 years (including a variety of figured out strategies, scouting and interpreting scouting information, optimized settings and mechanics, ...). Why would you compare a player with that advantage to player without head-to-head? And that is nothing sc2-specific but holds true for almost all sports or even for life in general. I hope most of us would be wiser, more efficient and just overall better in what they are doing than they were 10 years ago. | ||
Poopi
France12770 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On February 27 2024 00:51 FFXthebest wrote: Like Artosis has mention on many occasions “A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL” Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs Absolutely delusional. Through and through. I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years. And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions. A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10321 Posts
On February 27 2024 00:30 Durnuu wrote: You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10. I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded. On February 27 2024 03:58 Fango wrote: Absolutely delusional. Through and through. I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years. And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions. A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players. I would say mid masters rather than diamond (high diamond could only maybe win in the very first 1-2 seasons with some memory of the meta/builds and doing mostly 1 base builds like 1/1/1 Marine Tank Raven+Banshee push due to their lower mechanics/understanding), but do you really think that having builds in your bag like 1 base triple robo in PvZ is something that actually matters? There were a ton of shitty builds in the first couple seasons that didn't make sense cus players didn't understand the game well. Players would win with just opening up cloak banshee and winning with 1 banshee. The skill level and understand of the game did very quickly improve though in just 8-10 months (like by MLG Anaheim), so IMO you'd need to be either a mid masters player with a memory of the meta/maps and enough builds (either performing them or knowing how to react to enough), or a mid GM winging things to win it. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10321 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On February 27 2024 04:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10. I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded. If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10321 Posts
On February 27 2024 04:14 Durnuu wrote: If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him. I wouldn't hold Innovation's comeback in 2023 against him, or TY or sOs's comeback in 2023-2024, so I wouldn't hold Taeja's against him either. Going to the military and failing to make it back in doesn't say too much, that break in your career messes with things plus you're in a different stage of life after. We've seen lots of evidence of that with other good players like MMA, Stats, MC, Ryung, Bomber, etc. struggling or failing to make it in. (Ryung made it after trying a long time and is now a regular again). And to me MMA and Stats are top 15 GOATs, MC didn't try as many times so i assume he wasn't as serious about it but to me he's also a top 15 GOAT. And I forgot soO too. | ||
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Moonerz
United States444 Posts
On February 27 2024 03:58 Fango wrote: Absolutely delusional. Through and through. I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years. And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions. A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players. Yeah people underestimate what it takes to be a top player. Even destiny who was never anywhere near the level of top GSL players got GM (na) last time he streamed sc. Also yeah through diamond and masters it's still mostly a game of simple math. Mine more make more win more. BoX build orders and mind games would make the average ladder player crumble. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24824 Posts
On February 27 2024 04:14 Durnuu wrote: If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him. I got the feeling Taeja just gave it a crack, see how it goes rather than going super serious comeback trail on it. Hey if I was back from military service, and was formerly one of the world’s best StarCraft 2 players, I’d at least give it a go for a bit. He showed the odd glimpse but alas, wasn’t to be. Also @Yoshi I almost always agree with you or find value in your chat but what are you smoking on the bolded? :p Innovation had one of the most disappointing fading aways in the scene, where he clearly still had that residual skill to occasionally have a decent run, but never really bothered to get properly back in shape for like, actually 2/3 years. As a huge Innovation fan too, that initial rise of HoTS Inno was one of the scariest players relative to the field we’ve seen in the game. But the guy was phoning it in after he won WESG, I believe he’s actually said as such Edit - I actually forgot he was back from military, I was referring to his last couple of years of pre-military SC | ||
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FFXthebest
75 Posts
On February 27 2024 03:58 Fango wrote: Absolutely delusional. Through and through. I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years. And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions. A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players. Ya I’ll take the words of pros and caster who does this for a living rather than some forum poster lol Skill haven’t evolved the last 10 years? Sure buddy keep telling yourself that. The skill was pure laughable back in the days. The games were laughably bad but highly entertaining. Basically a lower level of the AM server ladder clown fiesta | ||
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Moonerz
United States444 Posts
When he was actually forced to practice we would get glimpses of the machine. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On February 27 2024 04:26 WombaT wrote: I got the feeling Taeja just gave it a crack, see how it goes rather than going super serious comeback trail on it. Hey if I was back from military service, and was formerly one of the world’s best StarCraft 2 players, I’d at least give it a go for a bit. He showed the odd glimpse but alas, wasn’t to be. I would agree if Taeja did it like INnoVation in 2023 - one try at GSL and then poof, but he tried and failed for more than a year before calling it quits. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10321 Posts
On February 27 2024 04:26 WombaT wrote: I got the feeling Taeja just gave it a crack, see how it goes rather than going super serious comeback trail on it. Hey if I was back from military service, and was formerly one of the world’s best StarCraft 2 players, I’d at least give it a go for a bit. He showed the odd glimpse but alas, wasn’t to be. Also @Yoshi I almost always agree with you or find value in your chat but what are you smoking on the bolded? :p Innovation had one of the most disappointing fading aways in the scene, where he clearly still had that residual skill to occasionally have a decent run, but never really bothered to get properly back in shape for like, actually 2/3 years. As a huge Innovation fan too, that initial rise of HoTS Inno was one of the scariest players relative to the field we’ve seen in the game. But the guy was phoning it in after he won WESG, I believe he’s actually said as such Edit - I actually forgot he was back from military, I was referring to his last couple of years of pre-military SC I was trying to stick to the perspective of "Inno won a WESG/WC vs 2019 Serral late in his career" mentioned in these articles, I do agree he faded and never saw WESG as that big of an indicator of greatness/bestness. But i also forgot that WESG was 2 years before he retired, always felt like it was right before to me lol. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24824 Posts
On February 27 2024 04:21 Moonerz wrote: Yeah people underestimate what it takes to be a top player. Even destiny who was never anywhere near the level of top GSL players got GM (na) last time he streamed sc. Also yeah through diamond and masters it's still mostly a game of simple math. Mine more make more win more. BoX build orders and mind games would make the average ladder player crumble. Most regular casters are like, decent Masters thru Grandmasters players these days right? With few exceptions that I can think of. Then you go listen to a Harambo (Harstem/Lambo) side-stream cast where they’re free to properly analyse as they want rather than have the expectation to entertain and hype (although they often do the latter hype l). A Serral or a Reynor will be playing at like 350 APM and calling their own game in minute detail at times, largely correctly! This is no diss on our many entertaining casters but they really call more general things, what is happening as it unfolds. Pros will go through like the 5 different possibilities stemming from one different gas timing, or what a chrono on a particular building is likely foreshadowing. It’s a whole different ballgame being a decent progamer versus a solid GM player. I remember Harstem pointing out that my beloved Trap used to religiously gate scout in PvT, with a slightly forward gateway, or as forward as was safe to cut a little rush distance. Then he’d harass an SCV or two with his pesky probe, and chrono an adept straight across the map. In combination this often allowed him to damage an SCV or two sufficiently that his adept could arrive and 2 shot rather than 3 shot SCVs and this consistently was netting him multiple worker kills from a few slight tweaks to his BO. That’s the kind of thinking a pro does routinely, and another pro will pick up on a lot more readily than us mere mortals: | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24824 Posts
On February 27 2024 04:37 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I was trying to stick to the perspective of "Inno won a WESG/WC vs 2019 Serral late in his career" mentioned in these articles, I do agree he faded and never saw WESG as that big of an indicator of greatness/bestness. But i also forgot that WESG was 2 years before he retired, always felt like it was right before to me lol. So did I, this series has both inspired me to revisit some classics, as well as doing some real Liquipedia refreshes. If it weren’t for that I would be similarly discombobulated, that thing you get when you’re older where something you think happened last week was 10 years ago, and vice versa. I mean generally when I come to | ||
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