On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
I mean aside from the obvious injury, and military service, I don't think it's provable Mvp couldn't do it, not sure why you would think this. Byun was competing when Mvp was around too and wasn't able to see nearly as much success as Mvp did. Even just on Byun's team, Prime, MarineKing was the actual ace of the team. I don't think it's fair to say an immortal Mvp wouldn't have been able to improve as much or keep up.
Polt is another similar player from that era, or Bomber or Taeja a little after. (all 3 of them seeing success after the KeSPA switch, like at the season finals or Blizzcon, and Taeja came back from the military and immediately had a 2-3 to Serral at a Homestory Cup)
It's never easy for an old dog to learn new tricks, but Mvp did learn new tricks with his injury and he reinvented himself.
ByuN didn't hit his prime in WoL, so it's not a particularly useful comparison imo. Same for Maru, who was way too young in WoL, and needed HotS to be at his best level ; ByuN didn't play HotS afaik, he kinda come back in LotV. And it's mostly about mechanics / eye test, you could already see in WoL that Maru would obtain insane mechanics later on, given his gameplay at such a young age (pretty reminiscent of Clem in terms of development)
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
I mean aside from the obvious injury, and military service, I don't think it's provable Mvp couldn't do it, not sure why you would think this. Byun was competing when Mvp was around too and wasn't able to see nearly as much success as Mvp did. Even just on Byun's team, Prime, MarineKing was the actual ace of the team. I don't think it's fair to say an immortal Mvp wouldn't have been able to improve as much or keep up.
Polt is another similar player from that era, or Bomber or Taeja a little after. (all 3 of them seeing success after the KeSPA switch, like at the season finals or Blizzcon, and Taeja came back from the military and immediately had a 2-3 to Serral at a Homestory Cup)
It's never easy for an old dog to learn new tricks, but Mvp did learn new tricks with his injury and he reinvented himself.
ByuN didn't hit his prime in WoL, so it's not a particularly useful comparison imo. Same for Maru, who was way too young in WoL, and needed HotS to be at his best level ; ByuN didn't play HotS afaik, he kinda come back in LotV. And it's mostly about mechanics / eye test, you could already see in WoL that Maru would obtain insane mechanics later on, given his gameplay at such a young age (pretty reminiscent of Clem in terms of development)
ByuN didn't play Hots because he abandoned his team and went radio silent for three years.
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
I mean aside from the obvious injury, and military service, I don't think it's provable Mvp couldn't do it, not sure why you would think this. Byun was competing when Mvp was around too and wasn't able to see nearly as much success as Mvp did. Even just on Byun's team, Prime, MarineKing was the actual ace of the team. I don't think it's fair to say an immortal Mvp wouldn't have been able to improve as much or keep up.
Polt is another similar player from that era, or Bomber or Taeja a little after. (all 3 of them seeing success after the KeSPA switch, like at the season finals or Blizzcon, and Taeja came back from the military and immediately had a 2-3 to Serral at a Homestory Cup)
It's never easy for an old dog to learn new tricks, but Mvp did learn new tricks with his injury and he reinvented himself.
impossible to tell, you'd also expect Leenock and Creator to do well post-WoL but they didn't. Which is one of the reasons why I think longevity is an important factor for measuring a players greatness and it's not as easy as "he was young when he started competing so obviously he got lots of results"
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted. It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven. And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.
I think the major problem (from terran perspective) is that they simply didn't know how to play safe. However, early-mid-2011 it got pretty obvious how terrans were supposed to get safely into macro games. But 2010 terrans didn't know that and aside from Blistering Sands - it imo had nothing to with the map-pool but rather a lack of understanding of the basics.
I think the bigger problem is that terrans back then had the idea that the race was bad late game and was "supposed to cheese/all-in". So that was the entire focus of the race. Plus winning games by doing early allins as opposed to properly learning how to play macro was harder so players were rewarded short-term for not properly learning the game.
That's why MVP stood out so much in open season 2 and season 3 (from the eye test) despite his results not being that great, because he actually wanted to properly play the game.
As an example of terrible terran openers in 2010. 1 base nuke drop. And on map 2 we open Maurauders vs zerg (???). This was a finalist btw.
In contrast here is MVP "inventing bio splitting.
lol at 20:05 Artosis saying burrowed banelings are gonna starting forcing ravens out, we're still waiting 14 years later!
pretty cool game by Mvp, I still like watching those old matches
It'll take another year before burrowed infestors start forcing ravens out, and then maybe in 2026 we'll see serral somehow fit burrowed banelings in ontop of the million other amazing things he already does, and then in 2028 we'll finally see Artosis was right!!
Also good post on the 12 worker start.
I feel Artosis was only wrong because Zergs started to get so good at spreading creep, and the battle between spreading/denying creep became such a huge part of TvZ.
If Terrans are poking or pushing, they’re almost always scanning so the likelihood of dropping a sick landmine trap is just so low versus just haemorrhaging a bunch of banes that do nothing.
They’re a sick play and definitely very high up there if we’re considering things we could maybe see more of throughout SC2’s history. But I guess they’re actually pretty situational, they’re super good in a wonky game that goes lower eco, Bomber versus Scarlett being one such memorable occasion.
About the baneling traps, if the terran doesn't have enough orbitals to properly keep up with it and/or his economy, lurkers are just far better at closing the game out. Burrowed banelings can still be useful in scrappy games, Reynor made decent use of it in some games iirc
I refuse to think Mvp isn't number 1 because he was such a powerhouse even at the notorious BL infestors era.
And he was the reason I switched to terran and made me realise just how open style terran can be, unlike zerg which was more "forced" to be all in or macro.
On February 23 2024 22:14 lolfail9001 wrote: In hindsight, i realise that Mvp would deserve a place on GOAT list just for the sake of being kicked out of GSL by soO. Narrative, guys, narrative!
I asked soO about this as he effectively retired Flash as well as Mvp. He doesn't think it's all that interesting, but the storyteller in me finds it intriguing.
On February 23 2024 22:11 KingzTig wrote: I refuse to think Mvp isn't number 1 because he was such a powerhouse even at the notorious BL infestors era.
And he was the reason I switched to terran and made me realise just how open style terran can be, unlike zerg which was more "forced" to be all in or macro.
Gonna give my boy Taeja another shoutout. I remember him to be the only Terran regularly winning late games against top zergs in the BL/Infestor era. Mvp pioneer the mass ghost late game TvZ and Taeja was the only one really had the mechanics and brain to use it well. Every other Terran was trying to end the game before Zerg gets to that BL/Infestor combo while Taeja often calmly split the map with Zerg and still win with superior ghost control/multitasking in the end.
While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
We'll always have VSL (Back in 2017, Leenock randomly made the Ro4 despite some pretty stiff competition).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
This is quite the dissertation for a shit post.
Wasn't intended as such. Would like to see any well-argued refutation. Edit: lol Okay, I guess I didn't get whose post you meant was the "shit post." Anyway, sick mutas split.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
We'll always have VSL (Back in 2017, Leenock randomly made the Ro4 despite some pretty stiff competition).
EPT
2017 VSL Season 2/Individual League
