• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:00
CEST 13:00
KST 20:00
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Official Replay Pack BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S:Season 2 - RO8 - Group A Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Armies of Exigo - YesYes?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 31707 users

#4: Mvp - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 12

Forum Index > SC2 General
307 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 10 11 12 13 14 16 Next All
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24839 Posts
February 22 2024 08:51 GMT
#221
On February 22 2024 17:24 SharkStarcraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2024 06:53 Kitaen wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted.
It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven.
And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.


I'm also a big fan of this theoretical scenario in which you can travel back in time to the open seasons. I think for one season, my chances might be okay because I could use broken builds in each match that just haven't been discovered yet. Which Zerg or Protoss in S1 would have been able to stop a perfectly executed good old 4-Gate? After a series, you'd have to pick something else, but I do believe there's enough stuff that you could pull through as a high masters/low GM player nowadays.

But you're right, maybe I'm completely delusional. Making it through the qualifiers would definitely already be an incredibly difficult hurdle as the random cheesy sh1t you have to deal with may well throw off some of the most stable players when you have to fight your way through so much of it. So while I agree that the mechanics of the pros then were certainly better than today's random masters players', the build orders and actual strategies you could bring to a format where you have time to prepare may have you pull through. Perhaps you could just 4 Gate your way through the qualifiers, too, I don't know.

I mean even if you look at MKP’s godlike splitting in those days relatively speaking versus now and what even decent GMs are doing, the knowledge gap does manifest mechanically too.

I think back to the 1/1/1 phase and how brutal that was at the time, but it ended up that 1 gate expands had their eco kick in early enough that you could just counter it by having more stuff. Which in turn saw the meta shift away from 3 gate expos/aggression into that being a very stock opener.

Perhaps the maps were too bad different to apply every development that occurred in the next year or so, but you could definitely at least adapt some of these concepts. You could also exploit everything that was broken but unexplored at this time.

Protoss players didn’t really frequently use warp prisms for quite some time, San Zenith was the first guy to really exploit Khaydarin Amulet, and when he did it got almost immediately nerfed. You could probably make hay with that. Or in smaller eco, scrappier games something like dual Immortal in a prism would be a pain in the arse, or a variant of the DT into Archon drop.

Add to that just minor optimisations like rapid fire hotkey setups and the like and you have a veritable fuckton of advantages.

This scenario especially appeals to me because presumably this person returns back to their own time at some stage, so it would be like Byun’s period of absence on steroids! Who was this guy, how was he so ahead of the curve? Where did he go?! And like a decade later he’d just be casually laddering and folks would keep badgering him if he was the same guy that just casually won a GSL and disappeared.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
weyoun
Profile Joined January 2024
4 Posts
February 22 2024 11:26 GMT
#222
On February 22 2024 16:03 EEk1TwEEk wrote:
And now we have Dark, Rogue, Serral and Maru lefy
With all due respect, a player who showed dominant performance for only 3 years +/- shouldn't be in the list


Agree , GOAT has the words All Time in it
that Status is impossible to reach for only playing a handfull Tournaments in just 2 years
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
February 22 2024 12:36 GMT
#223
This was a pleasant surprise. I assumed the metrics favored a long career a little too much for Mvp to be this high up, but I honestly agree with this placement. His career, especially the 2012 GSL run and that WCS match against INnoVation, were inspiring.
On February 22 2024 20:26 weyoun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2024 16:03 EEk1TwEEk wrote:
And now we have Dark, Rogue, Serral and Maru lefy
With all due respect, a player who showed dominant performance for only 3 years +/- shouldn't be in the list


Agree , GOAT has the words All Time in it
that Status is impossible to reach for only playing a handfull Tournaments in just 2 years

Well, that's why three players have passed Mvp in the ten years since his retirement.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
nimdil
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Poland3748 Posts
February 22 2024 13:50 GMT
#224
On February 21 2024 10:57 Fighter wrote:
I wonder if Life is eligible for these lists or if he's too verboten.

He should be but considering we also need to fit Rogue, Maru and Serral, I can't see Life. Unless Serral will be discarded for never properly competing in GSL.
Honestly still am surprised Parting is not in.
SharkStarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
Austria2208 Posts
February 22 2024 16:48 GMT
#225
On February 22 2024 22:50 nimdil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2024 10:57 Fighter wrote:
I wonder if Life is eligible for these lists or if he's too verboten.

He should be but considering we also need to fit Rogue, Maru and Serral, I can't see Life. Unless Serral will be discarded for never properly competing in GSL.
Honestly still am surprised Parting is not in.


Mizenhauer has on multiple occasions stated that Life hasn't made the list both due to the scandal and him not fitting the criteria for a top 10 spot anyway.
Cogito, ergo Toss
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1830 Posts
February 22 2024 17:34 GMT
#226
On February 23 2024 01:48 SharkStarcraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2024 22:50 nimdil wrote:
On February 21 2024 10:57 Fighter wrote:
I wonder if Life is eligible for these lists or if he's too verboten.

He should be but considering we also need to fit Rogue, Maru and Serral, I can't see Life. Unless Serral will be discarded for never properly competing in GSL.
Honestly still am surprised Parting is not in.


Mizenhauer has on multiple occasions stated that Life hasn't made the list both due to the scandal and him not fitting the criteria for a top 10 spot anyway.


Thanks for the assist.
┗|∵|┓Second Place in LB 28, Third Place in LB 29 and Destined to Be a Kong
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9366 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-02-22 20:29:40
February 22 2024 20:25 GMT
#227
On February 22 2024 06:34 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2024 06:14 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.

However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.

If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.

WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).

But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.

Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.

I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.

I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!

Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.


Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.

His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.

So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.

I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9366 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-02-22 20:50:48
February 22 2024 20:34 GMT
#228
On February 22 2024 06:53 Kitaen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted.
It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven.
And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.


I think the major problem (from terran perspective) is that they simply didn't know how to play safe. However, early-mid-2011 it got pretty obvious how terrans were supposed to get safely into macro games. But 2010 terrans didn't know that and aside from Blistering Sands - it imo had nothing to with the map-pool but rather a lack of understanding of the basics.

I think the bigger problem is that terrans back then had the idea that the race was bad late game and was "supposed to cheese/all-in". So that was the entire focus of the race. Plus winning games by doing early allins as opposed to properly learning how to play macro was harder so players were rewarded short-term for not properly learning the game.

That's why MVP stood out so much in open season 2 and season 3 (from the eye test) despite his results not being that great, because he actually wanted to properly play the game.

As an example of terrible terran openers in 2010. 1 base nuke drop. And on map 2 we open Maurauders vs zerg (???). This was a finalist btw.



In contrast here is MVP "inventing bio splitting.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24839 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-02-22 22:32:44
February 22 2024 22:30 GMT
#229
On February 23 2024 05:25 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2024 06:34 WombaT wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:14 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.

However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.

If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.

WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).

But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.

Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.

I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.

I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!

Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.


Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.

His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.

So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.

I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.

Idra’s problem was he had a pre-conceived notion of how the game was meant to be ‘correctly’ played. Which was more abstract and theoretical.

Mvp played what he saw or developed ultimately.

Idra was an incredibly talented player, with a crippling psychological flaw (honestly one I 100% share, albeit elsewhere) where he liked certainty, if I do x, y should be the result. Which made him a pretty damn inflexible player.

Idra was in ways actually right to GG to MMA that time, realistically if MMA hadn’t actually killed his CC, which is so unlikely that there’s few comparable examples throughout SC2 history.

I saw an interview catchup recently with him and was quite happy to see he’s doing well, seems way more chilled and in a field (pun intended) that suits him. Happy to see it, I think trying to compete in a brutally competitive game just didn’t dovetail all that well with his personality.

Of all the pros I had any interactions with at Dreamhack Winter 2011, and sharing a smoke break with my all-time favourite HerO of the Liquid variety was nice, the Grack was probably the most engaging, interesting guy to talk to.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Antithesis
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1144 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-02-22 23:32:29
February 22 2024 23:27 GMT
#230
On February 23 2024 07:30 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2024 05:25 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:34 WombaT wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:14 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.

However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.

If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.

WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).

But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.

Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.

I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.

I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!

Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.


Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.

His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.

So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.

I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.

Idra’s problem was he had a pre-conceived notion of how the game was meant to be ‘correctly’ played. Which was more abstract and theoretical.

Mvp played what he saw or developed ultimately.

Idra was an incredibly talented player, with a crippling psychological flaw (honestly one I 100% share, albeit elsewhere) where he liked certainty, if I do x, y should be the result. Which made him a pretty damn inflexible player.

Idra was in ways actually right to GG to MMA that time, realistically if MMA hadn’t actually killed his CC, which is so unlikely that there’s few comparable examples throughout SC2 history.

I saw an interview catchup recently with him and was quite happy to see he’s doing well, seems way more chilled and in a field (pun intended) that suits him. Happy to see it, I think trying to compete in a brutally competitive game just didn’t dovetail all that well with his personality.

Of all the pros I had any interactions with at Dreamhack Winter 2011, and sharing a smoke break with my all-time favourite HerO of the Liquid variety was nice, the Grack was probably the most engaging, interesting guy to talk to.

Cool, do you remember where you saw that video? I was and still am a bit of a Gracken fanboy.

I agree with your and Hider's analysis of Idra's mindset, though. I also think that he simply was not as good as he thought he was in several areas of the game. For example, his late-game army control was comparatively weak even at the time, and it was clear that he believed that once he had survived until the lategame, he just deserved to win, with him frequently a-moving too bluntly.

But it must be added that the effects of Idra's mindset were exacerbated by the fact that zerg was severely underpowered a good part of the time when he was most active. As Hider has pointed out, the irony of the situation was that terran in the early years of WoL could win in TvZ with a great range of hard-to-scout and deadly cheeses and all-ins, but in actuality terran was also perfectly viable in the lategame, as MVP and others have shown. So zergs were often in the situation of having had to avoid a series of potential insta-losses only to enter into an even fight.
Mutation complete.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24839 Posts
February 22 2024 23:39 GMT
#231
On February 23 2024 08:27 Antithesis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2024 07:30 WombaT wrote:
On February 23 2024 05:25 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:34 WombaT wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:14 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.

However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.

If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.

WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).

But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.

Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.

I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.

I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!

Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.


Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.

His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.

So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.

I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.

Idra’s problem was he had a pre-conceived notion of how the game was meant to be ‘correctly’ played. Which was more abstract and theoretical.

Mvp played what he saw or developed ultimately.

Idra was an incredibly talented player, with a crippling psychological flaw (honestly one I 100% share, albeit elsewhere) where he liked certainty, if I do x, y should be the result. Which made him a pretty damn inflexible player.

Idra was in ways actually right to GG to MMA that time, realistically if MMA hadn’t actually killed his CC, which is so unlikely that there’s few comparable examples throughout SC2 history.

I saw an interview catchup recently with him and was quite happy to see he’s doing well, seems way more chilled and in a field (pun intended) that suits him. Happy to see it, I think trying to compete in a brutally competitive game just didn’t dovetail all that well with his personality.

Of all the pros I had any interactions with at Dreamhack Winter 2011, and sharing a smoke break with my all-time favourite HerO of the Liquid variety was nice, the Grack was probably the most engaging, interesting guy to talk to.

Cool, do you remember where you saw that video? I was and still am a bit of a Gracken fanboy.

I agree with your and Hider's analysis of Idra's mindset, though. I also think that he simply was not as good as he thought he was in several areas of the game. For example, his late-game army control was comparatively weak even at the time, and it was clear that he believed that once he had survived until the lategame, he just deserved to win, with him frequently a-moving too bluntly.

But it must be added that the effects of Idra's mindset were exacerbated by the fact that zerg was severely underpowered a good part of the time when he was most active. As Hider has pointed out, the irony of the situation was that terran in the early years of WoL could win in TvZ with a great range of hard-to-scout and deadly cheeses and all-ins, but in actuality terran was also perfectly viable in the lategame, as MVP and others have shown. So zergs were often in the situation of having had to avoid a series of potential insta-losses only to enter into an even fight.

I can’t recall where I saw it, merely that I know it exists!

There’s a State of the Game where he does make a rather good point. Either Zerg has to have good scouting options, or be able to play relatively blindly and be safe. You don’t need both, but you need 1, and that was a blooming good point. One of those two things has to be true for the reactive/defensive macro race to work properly.

I think a player of Idra’s skill set, ideas about the game etc would have been way more prosperous in later day SC2 than when he was actually playing
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Kitai
Profile Joined June 2012
United States871 Posts
February 23 2024 01:26 GMT
#232
On February 23 2024 07:30 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2024 05:25 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:34 WombaT wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:14 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.

However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.

If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.

WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).

But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.

Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.

I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.

I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!

Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.


Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.

His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.

So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.

I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.

Idra’s problem was he had a pre-conceived notion of how the game was meant to be ‘correctly’ played. Which was more abstract and theoretical.

Mvp played what he saw or developed ultimately.

Idra was an incredibly talented player, with a crippling psychological flaw (honestly one I 100% share, albeit elsewhere) where he liked certainty, if I do x, y should be the result. Which made him a pretty damn inflexible player.

Idra was in ways actually right to GG to MMA that time, realistically if MMA hadn’t actually killed his CC, which is so unlikely that there’s few comparable examples throughout SC2 history.

I saw an interview catchup recently with him and was quite happy to see he’s doing well, seems way more chilled and in a field (pun intended) that suits him. Happy to see it, I think trying to compete in a brutally competitive game just didn’t dovetail all that well with his personality.

Of all the pros I had any interactions with at Dreamhack Winter 2011, and sharing a smoke break with my all-time favourite HerO of the Liquid variety was nice, the Grack was probably the most engaging, interesting guy to talk to.


It's interesting how everyone who knew the gracken said he had a vastly different in-person vs online persona. I can relate, always been really mild-mannered IRL, but man did I used to rage and tilt hard back in the day. I used to rationalize it like it was only because I cared so much, but it wound up being a big hindrance to actual improvement. In hindsight, being an IdrA fan probably reinforced my bad habits.
"You know, I don't care if soO got 100 second places in a row. Anyone who doesn't think that he's going to win blizzcon watching this series is a fool" - Artosis, Blizzcon 2014 soO vs TaeJa
FFXthebest
Profile Joined February 2024
75 Posts
February 23 2024 02:12 GMT
#233
On February 23 2024 05:34 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2024 06:53 Kitaen wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted.
It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven.
And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.


I think the major problem (from terran perspective) is that they simply didn't know how to play safe. However, early-mid-2011 it got pretty obvious how terrans were supposed to get safely into macro games. But 2010 terrans didn't know that and aside from Blistering Sands - it imo had nothing to with the map-pool but rather a lack of understanding of the basics.

I think the bigger problem is that terrans back then had the idea that the race was bad late game and was "supposed to cheese/all-in". So that was the entire focus of the race. Plus winning games by doing early allins as opposed to properly learning how to play macro was harder so players were rewarded short-term for not properly learning the game.

That's why MVP stood out so much in open season 2 and season 3 (from the eye test) despite his results not being that great, because he actually wanted to properly play the game.

As an example of terrible terran openers in 2010. 1 base nuke drop. And on map 2 we open Maurauders vs zerg (???). This was a finalist btw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEI0_x6wYcc&list=PL2SVHep0vjIwtXwWviKHRAICFR_WAQPR6&index=16

In contrast here is MVP "inventing bio splitting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BQXoH4CT0E&list=PL2SVHep0vjIx0OF3huPw7zqInX0i6QvbJ&index=18



Thanks for those videos

Those games were so bad it’s quite entertaining. It’s like watching current platium players playing each other
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1830 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-02-23 02:38:44
February 23 2024 02:35 GMT
#234
On February 23 2024 11:12 FFXthebest wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2024 05:34 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:53 Kitaen wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted.
It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven.
And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.


I think the major problem (from terran perspective) is that they simply didn't know how to play safe. However, early-mid-2011 it got pretty obvious how terrans were supposed to get safely into macro games. But 2010 terrans didn't know that and aside from Blistering Sands - it imo had nothing to with the map-pool but rather a lack of understanding of the basics.

I think the bigger problem is that terrans back then had the idea that the race was bad late game and was "supposed to cheese/all-in". So that was the entire focus of the race. Plus winning games by doing early allins as opposed to properly learning how to play macro was harder so players were rewarded short-term for not properly learning the game.

That's why MVP stood out so much in open season 2 and season 3 (from the eye test) despite his results not being that great, because he actually wanted to properly play the game.

As an example of terrible terran openers in 2010. 1 base nuke drop. And on map 2 we open Maurauders vs zerg (???). This was a finalist btw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEI0_x6wYcc&list=PL2SVHep0vjIwtXwWviKHRAICFR_WAQPR6&index=16

In contrast here is MVP "inventing bio splitting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BQXoH4CT0E&list=PL2SVHep0vjIx0OF3huPw7zqInX0i6QvbJ&index=18



Thanks for those videos

Those games were so bad it’s quite entertaining. It’s like watching current platium players playing each other



The one thing I worry about in these theories is that they don't take APM into account. I'm a washed up 280 apm Zerg, but soO can play terran at 400 apm. You'd have a huge strategy advantage and that might be too much to overcome, but I wonder if our present selves would be hindered by people moving their cameras quickly.
┗|∵|┓Second Place in LB 28, Third Place in LB 29 and Destined to Be a Kong
dysenterymd
Profile Joined January 2019
1195 Posts
February 23 2024 02:41 GMT
#235
On February 23 2024 08:39 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2024 08:27 Antithesis wrote:
On February 23 2024 07:30 WombaT wrote:
On February 23 2024 05:25 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:34 WombaT wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:14 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.

However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.

If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.

WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).

But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.

Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.

I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.

I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!

Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.


Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.

His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.

So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.

I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.

Idra’s problem was he had a pre-conceived notion of how the game was meant to be ‘correctly’ played. Which was more abstract and theoretical.

Mvp played what he saw or developed ultimately.

Idra was an incredibly talented player, with a crippling psychological flaw (honestly one I 100% share, albeit elsewhere) where he liked certainty, if I do x, y should be the result. Which made him a pretty damn inflexible player.

Idra was in ways actually right to GG to MMA that time, realistically if MMA hadn’t actually killed his CC, which is so unlikely that there’s few comparable examples throughout SC2 history.

I saw an interview catchup recently with him and was quite happy to see he’s doing well, seems way more chilled and in a field (pun intended) that suits him. Happy to see it, I think trying to compete in a brutally competitive game just didn’t dovetail all that well with his personality.

Of all the pros I had any interactions with at Dreamhack Winter 2011, and sharing a smoke break with my all-time favourite HerO of the Liquid variety was nice, the Grack was probably the most engaging, interesting guy to talk to.

Cool, do you remember where you saw that video? I was and still am a bit of a Gracken fanboy.

I agree with your and Hider's analysis of Idra's mindset, though. I also think that he simply was not as good as he thought he was in several areas of the game. For example, his late-game army control was comparatively weak even at the time, and it was clear that he believed that once he had survived until the lategame, he just deserved to win, with him frequently a-moving too bluntly.

But it must be added that the effects of Idra's mindset were exacerbated by the fact that zerg was severely underpowered a good part of the time when he was most active. As Hider has pointed out, the irony of the situation was that terran in the early years of WoL could win in TvZ with a great range of hard-to-scout and deadly cheeses and all-ins, but in actuality terran was also perfectly viable in the lategame, as MVP and others have shown. So zergs were often in the situation of having had to avoid a series of potential insta-losses only to enter into an even fight.

I can’t recall where I saw it, merely that I know it exists!

There’s a State of the Game where he does make a rather good point. Either Zerg has to have good scouting options, or be able to play relatively blindly and be safe. You don’t need both, but you need 1, and that was a blooming good point. One of those two things has to be true for the reactive/defensive macro race to work properly.

I think a player of Idra’s skill set, ideas about the game etc would have been way more prosperous in later day SC2 than when he was actually playing

With queens and overlord pillars, Zerg basically has had both for years!

I do miss all the weird all-ins of early SC2 (not just early WOL, even in HOTS it felt like there was more room for creative all ins.) Then again, a lot of openings were killed by the 12 worker start, and in retrospect the 6 worker start felt like a waste of time in 90% of games. Also don't want players dying to hard to scout builds all the time... I do feel like the game has become too macro-oriented in most match-ups when neither player messes up (ZvZ and PvP are big exceptions to that trend.) Striking the right balance between short and long games is difficult in practice though, and having too many long games is an improvement over too many short games/build order wins.
Serral | Inno | sOs | soO | Has | Classic
renaissanceMAN
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1840 Posts
February 23 2024 04:50 GMT
#236
anyone know if it's possible to get the googims wear in America anymore?
On August 15 2013 03:43 Waxangel wrote: no amount of money can replace the enjoyment of being mean to people on the internet
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10321 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-02-23 07:39:07
February 23 2024 07:35 GMT
#237
On February 23 2024 11:41 dysenterymd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2024 08:39 WombaT wrote:
On February 23 2024 08:27 Antithesis wrote:
On February 23 2024 07:30 WombaT wrote:
On February 23 2024 05:25 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:34 WombaT wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:14 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.

However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.

If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.

WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).

But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.

Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.

I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.

I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!

Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.


Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.

His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.

So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.

I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.

Idra’s problem was he had a pre-conceived notion of how the game was meant to be ‘correctly’ played. Which was more abstract and theoretical.

Mvp played what he saw or developed ultimately.

Idra was an incredibly talented player, with a crippling psychological flaw (honestly one I 100% share, albeit elsewhere) where he liked certainty, if I do x, y should be the result. Which made him a pretty damn inflexible player.

Idra was in ways actually right to GG to MMA that time, realistically if MMA hadn’t actually killed his CC, which is so unlikely that there’s few comparable examples throughout SC2 history.

I saw an interview catchup recently with him and was quite happy to see he’s doing well, seems way more chilled and in a field (pun intended) that suits him. Happy to see it, I think trying to compete in a brutally competitive game just didn’t dovetail all that well with his personality.

Of all the pros I had any interactions with at Dreamhack Winter 2011, and sharing a smoke break with my all-time favourite HerO of the Liquid variety was nice, the Grack was probably the most engaging, interesting guy to talk to.

Cool, do you remember where you saw that video? I was and still am a bit of a Gracken fanboy.

I agree with your and Hider's analysis of Idra's mindset, though. I also think that he simply was not as good as he thought he was in several areas of the game. For example, his late-game army control was comparatively weak even at the time, and it was clear that he believed that once he had survived until the lategame, he just deserved to win, with him frequently a-moving too bluntly.

But it must be added that the effects of Idra's mindset were exacerbated by the fact that zerg was severely underpowered a good part of the time when he was most active. As Hider has pointed out, the irony of the situation was that terran in the early years of WoL could win in TvZ with a great range of hard-to-scout and deadly cheeses and all-ins, but in actuality terran was also perfectly viable in the lategame, as MVP and others have shown. So zergs were often in the situation of having had to avoid a series of potential insta-losses only to enter into an even fight.

I can’t recall where I saw it, merely that I know it exists!

There’s a State of the Game where he does make a rather good point. Either Zerg has to have good scouting options, or be able to play relatively blindly and be safe. You don’t need both, but you need 1, and that was a blooming good point. One of those two things has to be true for the reactive/defensive macro race to work properly.

I think a player of Idra’s skill set, ideas about the game etc would have been way more prosperous in later day SC2 than when he was actually playing

With queens and overlord pillars, Zerg basically has had both for years!

I do miss all the weird all-ins of early SC2 (not just early WOL, even in HOTS it felt like there was more room for creative all ins.) Then again, a lot of openings were killed by the 12 worker start, and in retrospect the 6 worker start felt like a waste of time in 90% of games. Also don't want players dying to hard to scout builds all the time... I do feel like the game has become too macro-oriented in most match-ups when neither player messes up (ZvZ and PvP are big exceptions to that trend.) Striking the right balance between short and long games is difficult in practice though, and having too many long games is an improvement over too many short games/build order wins.


Yeah i remember a several month period in GSL a couple years ago, where at some point i just realized like... wow most games literally end with the first push, and most games have 1 player doing some early-mid push on the opponent's third. It would just be over after that with no back and forth and it was really sad.

Now SC2 seems to really be reaching new heights the last year or so, and most games we see are these macro games where players get tons of bases and throw lots of armies at each other and trade trade trade. I think this is much better, though I do think that a 9-10 worker start would have been much better now that we know what 12 worker start does.

12 worker start favors Zerg a little too much, gets rid of a little too many openers, and accelerates the game to taking half the map a little too fast. Like it sucks that 12 worker start means that you hit that max efficiency of 16 workers on minerals so early. Back then with 6 worker start it was nice to have all these variations like 11 gas first, or 12 gas first, 12 rax 12 gas, or 12 rax 13 gas, 12 rax 1-2 marines before reactor vs going reaper first, 1 rax FE into double gas, whether to open 1 or 2 or heck 3 reaper first before expanding in TvZ... etc. They were small variations of each other, but had significant pros/cons and also made you have to scout not just the opening but scout again a little later to see if it's still the thing you think they're going for. Now scouting is a little simpler and more straightforward figuring out what they're going for, and unfortunately lost a bit of that cool part of the game.

Again I think it's better to not start with 6 workers, even if it gets rid of some crazy early proxies or rushes like a 1 rax proxy reaper at 8 supply, or 2 rax proxy reaper at 8 supply, etc. But it sucks that we made such a big jump that even the variations in gas timings became significantly reduced, there's much less choice when mineral mining efficiency drops to half after 16 workers on minerals.

And of course the other huge downside to 12 worker start - it led to us getting rid of 3 and 4 player maps. Huge. 9-10 worker start would probably have let you scout early enough.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17657 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-02-23 07:54:49
February 23 2024 07:48 GMT
#238
On February 23 2024 05:34 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2024 06:53 Kitaen wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted.
It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven.
And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.


I think the major problem (from terran perspective) is that they simply didn't know how to play safe. However, early-mid-2011 it got pretty obvious how terrans were supposed to get safely into macro games. But 2010 terrans didn't know that and aside from Blistering Sands - it imo had nothing to with the map-pool but rather a lack of understanding of the basics.

I think the bigger problem is that terrans back then had the idea that the race was bad late game and was "supposed to cheese/all-in". So that was the entire focus of the race. Plus winning games by doing early allins as opposed to properly learning how to play macro was harder so players were rewarded short-term for not properly learning the game.

That's why MVP stood out so much in open season 2 and season 3 (from the eye test) despite his results not being that great, because he actually wanted to properly play the game.

As an example of terrible terran openers in 2010. 1 base nuke drop. And on map 2 we open Maurauders vs zerg (???). This was a finalist btw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEI0_x6wYcc&list=PL2SVHep0vjIwtXwWviKHRAICFR_WAQPR6&index=16

In contrast here is MVP "inventing bio splitting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BQXoH4CT0E&list=PL2SVHep0vjIx0OF3huPw7zqInX0i6QvbJ&index=18

lol at 20:05 Artosis saying burrowed banelings are gonna starting forcing ravens out, we're still waiting 14 years later!

pretty cool game by Mvp, I still like watching those old matches
"Expert" mods4ever.com
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10321 Posts
February 23 2024 08:09 GMT
#239
On February 23 2024 16:48 Die4Ever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2024 05:34 Hider wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:53 Kitaen wrote:
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote:
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote:
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).


His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.

Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.

He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).

However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.

The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.

Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.

Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season.
The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.

MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet



I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted.
It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven.
And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.


I think the major problem (from terran perspective) is that they simply didn't know how to play safe. However, early-mid-2011 it got pretty obvious how terrans were supposed to get safely into macro games. But 2010 terrans didn't know that and aside from Blistering Sands - it imo had nothing to with the map-pool but rather a lack of understanding of the basics.

I think the bigger problem is that terrans back then had the idea that the race was bad late game and was "supposed to cheese/all-in". So that was the entire focus of the race. Plus winning games by doing early allins as opposed to properly learning how to play macro was harder so players were rewarded short-term for not properly learning the game.

That's why MVP stood out so much in open season 2 and season 3 (from the eye test) despite his results not being that great, because he actually wanted to properly play the game.

As an example of terrible terran openers in 2010. 1 base nuke drop. And on map 2 we open Maurauders vs zerg (???). This was a finalist btw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEI0_x6wYcc&list=PL2SVHep0vjIwtXwWviKHRAICFR_WAQPR6&index=16

In contrast here is MVP "inventing bio splitting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BQXoH4CT0E&list=PL2SVHep0vjIx0OF3huPw7zqInX0i6QvbJ&index=18

lol at 20:05 Artosis saying burrowed banelings are gonna starting forcing ravens out, we're still waiting 14 years later!

pretty cool game by Mvp, I still like watching those old matches


It'll take another year before burrowed infestors start forcing ravens out, and then maybe in 2026 we'll see serral somehow fit burrowed banelings in ontop of the million other amazing things he already does, and then in 2028 we'll finally see Artosis was right!!
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17657 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-02-23 08:19:17
February 23 2024 08:13 GMT
#240
On February 21 2024 16:57 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2024 09:03 Mizenhauer wrote:
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote:
Why are we only looking at tournament results?

Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.


ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.

ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.

I mean aside from the obvious injury, and military service, I don't think it's provable Mvp couldn't do it, not sure why you would think this. Byun was competing when Mvp was around too and wasn't able to see nearly as much success as Mvp did. Even just on Byun's team, Prime, MarineKing was the actual ace of the team. I don't think it's fair to say an immortal Mvp wouldn't have been able to improve as much or keep up.

Polt is another similar player from that era, or Bomber or Taeja a little after. (all 3 of them seeing success after the KeSPA switch, like at the season finals or Blizzcon, and Taeja came back from the military and immediately had a 2-3 to Serral at a Homestory Cup)

It's never easy for an old dog to learn new tricks, but Mvp did learn new tricks with his injury and he reinvented himself.
"Expert" mods4ever.com
Prev 1 10 11 12 13 14 16 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
GSL Code S
09:30
Ro8 - Group A
Maru vs SolarLIVE!
Rogue vs TBD
GuMiho vs TBD
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech83
EnDerr 55
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 29325
Calm 6290
Rain 3738
Bisu 2266
Jaedong 992
Pusan 744
Horang2 648
BeSt 370
EffOrt 225
TY 176
[ Show more ]
Soulkey 140
Last 137
PianO 98
ToSsGirL 93
Mini 74
Hyun 61
[sc1f]eonzerg 54
Shine 49
Dewaltoss 45
Aegong 40
Killer 38
ZerO 37
NaDa 24
Movie 19
Snow 19
sorry 19
Barracks 17
Sharp 14
Sacsri 13
Mong 9
HiyA 8
JYJ7
Dota 2
XcaliburYe461
420jenkins392
BananaSlamJamma391
Fuzer 224
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss911
x6flipin289
Super Smash Bros
Westballz14
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor166
Other Games
singsing2133
crisheroes308
DeMusliM260
Crank 247
Pyrionflax226
B2W.Neo218
XaKoH 174
ZerO(Twitch)4
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream5713
Other Games
gamesdonequick376
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 36
lovetv 7
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• WagamamaTV117
Upcoming Events
Online Event
13h
Replay Cast
15h
GSL Code S
22h 30m
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Bunny
The PondCast
23h
Replay Cast
1d 13h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
OSC
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
SOOP
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
Cheesadelphia
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
GSL Code S
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
6 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.