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United States1840 Posts
On February 21 2024 16:57 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 09:03 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote:
Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance. ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either. ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
Number of Premier events won by ByuN while reapers and 2/1/1 were way too good in 2016: 3
Number of Premier events won in the last eight years since reapers were nerfed: 0
You can admit it and still like the guy.
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Kelazhur #1
Maru, Serral and Rogue battle for #2 and #3.
Simple like that
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France12771 Posts
On February 21 2024 21:11 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 16:57 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 09:03 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote:
Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance. ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either. ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking. Number of Premier events won by ByuN while reapers and 2/1/1 were way too good in 2016: 3 Number of Premier events won in the last eight years since reapers were nerfed: 0 You can admit it and still like the guy.
I mean if we are taking such things into account as "reaper" and "2/1/1" we should discount every zerg victory since 2017 and the hydra buff then? Because at worst the race was "slightly" better than the rest, and at best "2019 zerg" level of broken
Even TY's biggest victory at IEM Katowice is due to tank push being strong at the time, and his 2020 GSL victories were mostly off the back of good mirror.
Since ByuN went to the military it's not surprising he had trouble winning another premier. herO managed to do it when protoss was pretty strong in combination with the weird map pool (see the games vs Maru with the gold base etc.), now that protoss is nerfed herO has an average placement in 2023/2024 at like 8+
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United States1840 Posts
On February 21 2024 21:22 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 21:11 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 16:57 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 09:03 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote:
Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance. ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either. ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking. Number of Premier events won by ByuN while reapers and 2/1/1 were way too good in 2016: 3 Number of Premier events won in the last eight years since reapers were nerfed: 0 You can admit it and still like the guy. I mean if we are taking such things into account as "reaper" and "2/1/1" we should discount every zerg victory since 2017 and the hydra buff then? Because at worst the race was "slightly" better than the rest, and at best "2019 zerg" level of broken Even TY's biggest victory at IEM Katowice is due to tank push being strong at the time, and his 2020 GSL victories were mostly off the back of good mirror. Since ByuN went to the military it's not surprising he had trouble winning another premier. herO managed to do it when protoss was pretty strong in combination with the weird map pool (see the games vs Maru with the gold base etc.), now that protoss is nerfed herO has an average placement in 2023/2024 at like 8+
You're comparing a four month stretch in 2017 to seven years of a race being overpowered?
It's a lost cause.
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Northern Ireland24900 Posts
On February 21 2024 14:11 argonautdice wrote:God I miss Life. He basically has the best shounen protagonist storyline (until he turned evil). Royal roading GSL at age 15 by defeating a resurgent King of Wings Mvp in a 7-game grand final (villain foreshadowing?) Collecting a triple crown in the next 3 months by winning MLG Dallas, Blizzard Cup, and Iron Squid 2. Winning the first Kespa-participating HotS Premier tournament MLG winter championship by stopping the BW bonjwa Flash in the grand final. Winning Blizzcon, IEM Taipei against an on-form Maru in a clutch grand final, and a GSL against an on-form PartinG in another clutch grand final during the "highest skill" era of 2014-2015. And last but not least, making it to back-to-back grand final of Blizzcon in 2015 against a resurgent sOs but this time unclutchly losing 3-4 as karmic retribution for matchfixing (corruption arc where he lost the soul of esports). A very poetic beginning and end. (Btw he's only 18 at this point.) But since this is real life, there's no redemption arc (unless ... ?)
Not in Starcraft anyway. Ak it’s a real shame those folks trod that path, which let’s not forget caused a lot of wider damage to the scene
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Northern Ireland24900 Posts
On February 21 2024 21:22 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 21:11 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 16:57 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 09:03 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote:
Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance. ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either. ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking. Number of Premier events won by ByuN while reapers and 2/1/1 were way too good in 2016: 3 Number of Premier events won in the last eight years since reapers were nerfed: 0 You can admit it and still like the guy. I mean if we are taking such things into account as "reaper" and "2/1/1" we should discount every zerg victory since 2017 and the hydra buff then? Because at worst the race was "slightly" better than the rest, and at best "2019 zerg" level of broken Even TY's biggest victory at IEM Katowice is due to tank push being strong at the time, and his 2020 GSL victories were mostly off the back of good mirror. Since ByuN went to the military it's not surprising he had trouble winning another premier. herO managed to do it when protoss was pretty strong in combination with the weird map pool (see the games vs Maru with the gold base etc.), now that protoss is nerfed herO has an average placement in 2023/2024 at like 8+
Protoss was strong? :S
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Northern Ireland24900 Posts
On February 21 2024 21:11 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 16:57 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 09:03 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote:
Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance. ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either. ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking. Number of Premier events won by ByuN while reapers and 2/1/1 were way too good in 2016: 3 Number of Premier events won in the last eight years since reapers were nerfed: 0 You can admit it and still like the guy.
I was surprised the ASUS Rog he won wasn’t a Premier, it was stacked as,
Aye, does anyone not like Byun? But he’s pretty one-dimensional, just excellent in that dimension. Is it really different from the ‘patch Zergs’ that won big prizes and nobody ever, ever talks about?
Having insane micro only goes so far, other folks are a bit more rounded
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France12771 Posts
The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery.
His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up
It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2
@Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular  Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back)
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this is about right I would say, as a huge Mvp fan back in the day.
i'm kinda thinking 3 will be Dark, 2 Rogue and 1 Maru/Serral in a draw or something like that
btw after this is done i'd love to see a top 10 for each race, top 10 for each region type of list
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United States1840 Posts
On February 21 2024 22:10 Poopi wrote:The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2 @Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back)
This was the map that HeroMarine was so angry about...
Dreamcatcher LE
Turned out it was Terran favored.
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Holy shit, this reminds me of Fluidrone's posts - just having a stroke-inducing read. RIP brother
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France12771 Posts
On February 21 2024 22:26 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 22:10 Poopi wrote:The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2 @Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back) This was the map that HeroMarine was so angry about... Dreamcatcher LETurned out it was Terran favored.
This map was the one where I argued with Demuslim about. According to him, it was massively terran favored versus zerg because of the tank spots and such. My argument was that the winrate (it was slightly zerg favored at the time, with similar sample size as now) didn't corroborate that it was "massively" T favored. He went on to say that all his progamers friends say it is super terran favored so it is ; that I'm an idiot yada yada.
Point is that winrates don't tell the whole story, maybe people vetoed the map too much because they felt (maybe with good reason) that it was T favored vs zerg, so it was not played enough for the stats to display it. Also since there is very often a way to beat inferior players in sc2 despite map / race balance, maybe most of the games played on it were between players that knew they would win (or lose) no matter the map and did not care. Plus the fact that not that many people played sc2 anymore, the sample size would remain kinda low for a proper quantitative analysis (and qualitative analysis is too complicated)
-> stats don't necessarily tell the whole story
So yeah, Cosmic Sapphire has a decent winrate in TvP, still an horrendous map that should not have been used for a GSL finals (not that there were many better maps in this particular map pool anyways)
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Northern Ireland24900 Posts
On February 21 2024 22:36 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 22:26 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 22:10 Poopi wrote:The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2 @Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back) This was the map that HeroMarine was so angry about... Dreamcatcher LETurned out it was Terran favored. This map was the one where I argued with Demuslim about. According to him, it was massively terran favored versus zerg because of the tank spots and such. My argument was that the winrate (it was slightly zerg favored at the time, with similar sample size as now) didn't corroborate that it was "massively" T favored. He went on to say that all his progamers friends say it is super terran favored so it is ; that I'm an idiot yada yada. Point is that winrates don't tell the whole story, maybe people vetoed the map too much because they felt (maybe with good reason) that it was T favored vs zerg, so it was not played enough for the stats to display it. Also since there is very often a way to beat inferior players in sc2 despite map / race balance, maybe most of the games played on it were between players that knew they would win (or lose) no matter the map and did not care. Plus the fact that not that many people played sc2 anymore, the sample size would remain kinda low for a proper quantitative analysis (and qualitative analysis is too complicated) -> stats don't necessarily tell the whole story So yeah, Cosmic Sapphire has a decent winrate in TvP, still an horrendous map that should not have been used for a GSL finals (not that there were many better maps in this particular map pool anyways)
It was hardly a great pool/patch for Toss in combination, just better than today’s sorry state. Let’s say we throw that map out the window, it’s not great sure but Toss was hardly broken.
Sure fluctuations will favour some players, even if it’s stylistic rather than outright down to balance.
herO and TY may have preferred x time but they were both competitive over big spans of time, in different metas.
Byun won all his big tournaments in a short span off particular skill with one unit. I just don’t see how it’s comparable to the examples you threw out.
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France12771 Posts
On February 21 2024 23:01 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 22:36 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 22:26 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 22:10 Poopi wrote:The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2 @Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back) This was the map that HeroMarine was so angry about... Dreamcatcher LETurned out it was Terran favored. This map was the one where I argued with Demuslim about. According to him, it was massively terran favored versus zerg because of the tank spots and such. My argument was that the winrate (it was slightly zerg favored at the time, with similar sample size as now) didn't corroborate that it was "massively" T favored. He went on to say that all his progamers friends say it is super terran favored so it is ; that I'm an idiot yada yada. Point is that winrates don't tell the whole story, maybe people vetoed the map too much because they felt (maybe with good reason) that it was T favored vs zerg, so it was not played enough for the stats to display it. Also since there is very often a way to beat inferior players in sc2 despite map / race balance, maybe most of the games played on it were between players that knew they would win (or lose) no matter the map and did not care. Plus the fact that not that many people played sc2 anymore, the sample size would remain kinda low for a proper quantitative analysis (and qualitative analysis is too complicated) -> stats don't necessarily tell the whole story So yeah, Cosmic Sapphire has a decent winrate in TvP, still an horrendous map that should not have been used for a GSL finals (not that there were many better maps in this particular map pool anyways) It was hardly a great pool/patch for Toss in combination, just better than today’s sorry state. Let’s say we throw that map out the window, it’s not great sure but Toss was hardly broken. Sure fluctuations will favour some players, even if it’s stylistic rather than outright down to balance. herO and TY may have preferred x time but they were both competitive over big spans of time, in different metas. Byun won all his big tournaments in a short span off particular skill with one unit. I just don’t see how it’s comparable to the examples you threw out.
herO won a little bit more money than ByuN outside of ByuN BlizzCon victory year, but not by that much and they have had similar earnings patterns.
TY has an even more "top" heavy earnings year than ByuN, he was basically only super successful in 2017, once again, when tank pushes were super strong. Before or after, his career is similar in earnings to ByuN. If he didn't win those 2 GSLs in 2020 I would even say that ByuN's career is as good as TY.
sources:
https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/2224-ty-jun-tae-yang
https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/1017-byun-hyun-woo
https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/3042-hero-kim-joon-ho
So maybe herO is a bad example, but TY is pretty similar to ByuN in terms of career. I mean we can then argue that TY actually won gold afterwards, whereas ByuN only got 3rd / 2nd or the likes, but then we gotta bring back soO...
It is a never ending debate
I don't have contacts among the KR players, but I highly doubt that they consider ByuN a patch terran (or what would they even consider Rogue then?)
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On February 21 2024 23:13 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 23:01 WombaT wrote:On February 21 2024 22:36 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 22:26 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 22:10 Poopi wrote:The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2 @Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back) This was the map that HeroMarine was so angry about... Dreamcatcher LETurned out it was Terran favored. This map was the one where I argued with Demuslim about. According to him, it was massively terran favored versus zerg because of the tank spots and such. My argument was that the winrate (it was slightly zerg favored at the time, with similar sample size as now) didn't corroborate that it was "massively" T favored. He went on to say that all his progamers friends say it is super terran favored so it is ; that I'm an idiot yada yada. Point is that winrates don't tell the whole story, maybe people vetoed the map too much because they felt (maybe with good reason) that it was T favored vs zerg, so it was not played enough for the stats to display it. Also since there is very often a way to beat inferior players in sc2 despite map / race balance, maybe most of the games played on it were between players that knew they would win (or lose) no matter the map and did not care. Plus the fact that not that many people played sc2 anymore, the sample size would remain kinda low for a proper quantitative analysis (and qualitative analysis is too complicated) -> stats don't necessarily tell the whole story So yeah, Cosmic Sapphire has a decent winrate in TvP, still an horrendous map that should not have been used for a GSL finals (not that there were many better maps in this particular map pool anyways) It was hardly a great pool/patch for Toss in combination, just better than today’s sorry state. Let’s say we throw that map out the window, it’s not great sure but Toss was hardly broken. Sure fluctuations will favour some players, even if it’s stylistic rather than outright down to balance. herO and TY may have preferred x time but they were both competitive over big spans of time, in different metas. Byun won all his big tournaments in a short span off particular skill with one unit. I just don’t see how it’s comparable to the examples you threw out. herO won a little bit more money than ByuN outside of ByuN BlizzCon victory year, but not by that much and they have had similar earnings patterns. TY has an even more "top" heavy earnings year than ByuN, he was basically only super successful in 2017, once again, when tank pushes were super strong. Before or after, his career is similar in earnings to ByuN. If he didn't win those 2 GSLs in 2020 I would even say that ByuN's career is as good as TY.
sources: https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/2224-ty-jun-tae-yanghttps://www.esportsearnings.com/players/1017-byun-hyun-woohttps://www.esportsearnings.com/players/3042-hero-kim-joon-hoSo maybe herO is a bad example, but TY is pretty similar to ByuN in terms of career. I mean we can then argue that TY actually won gold afterwards, whereas ByuN only got 3rd / 2nd or the likes, but then we gotta bring back soO... It is a never ending debate
If you disregard both of those players proleague careers sure. herO more so of course but TY did get a win vs skt1 in the final and generally was a solid player for KT.
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Northern Ireland24900 Posts
Even if you do disregard Proleague herO won a Starleague in HoTS, multiple IEMs, a Kespa Cup, and a GSL and a Dreamhack post-military.
Which to me easily stacks up to Byun’s body of work.
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On February 21 2024 22:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 21:11 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 16:57 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 09:03 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote:
Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance. ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either. ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking. Number of Premier events won by ByuN while reapers and 2/1/1 were way too good in 2016: 3 Number of Premier events won in the last eight years since reapers were nerfed: 0 You can admit it and still like the guy. I was surprised the ASUS Rog he won wasn’t a Premier, it was stacked as, Aye, does anyone not like Byun? But he’s pretty one-dimensional, just excellent in that dimension. Is it really different from the ‘patch Zergs’ that won big prizes and nobody ever, ever talks about? Having insane micro only goes so far, other folks are a bit more rounded
Byun is the terran version of herO.
All they think about is attack attack attack. Fun entertaining players
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On February 21 2024 23:13 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 23:01 WombaT wrote:On February 21 2024 22:36 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 22:26 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 22:10 Poopi wrote:The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2 @Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back) This was the map that HeroMarine was so angry about... Dreamcatcher LETurned out it was Terran favored. This map was the one where I argued with Demuslim about. According to him, it was massively terran favored versus zerg because of the tank spots and such. My argument was that the winrate (it was slightly zerg favored at the time, with similar sample size as now) didn't corroborate that it was "massively" T favored. He went on to say that all his progamers friends say it is super terran favored so it is ; that I'm an idiot yada yada. Point is that winrates don't tell the whole story, maybe people vetoed the map too much because they felt (maybe with good reason) that it was T favored vs zerg, so it was not played enough for the stats to display it. Also since there is very often a way to beat inferior players in sc2 despite map / race balance, maybe most of the games played on it were between players that knew they would win (or lose) no matter the map and did not care. Plus the fact that not that many people played sc2 anymore, the sample size would remain kinda low for a proper quantitative analysis (and qualitative analysis is too complicated) -> stats don't necessarily tell the whole story So yeah, Cosmic Sapphire has a decent winrate in TvP, still an horrendous map that should not have been used for a GSL finals (not that there were many better maps in this particular map pool anyways) It was hardly a great pool/patch for Toss in combination, just better than today’s sorry state. Let’s say we throw that map out the window, it’s not great sure but Toss was hardly broken. Sure fluctuations will favour some players, even if it’s stylistic rather than outright down to balance. herO and TY may have preferred x time but they were both competitive over big spans of time, in different metas. Byun won all his big tournaments in a short span off particular skill with one unit. I just don’t see how it’s comparable to the examples you threw out. herO won a little bit more money than ByuN outside of ByuN BlizzCon victory year, but not by that much and they have had similar earnings patterns. TY has an even more "top" heavy earnings year than ByuN, he was basically only super successful in 2017, once again, when tank pushes were super strong. Before or after, his career is similar in earnings to ByuN. If he didn't win those 2 GSLs in 2020 I would even say that ByuN's career is as good as TY.
sources: https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/2224-ty-jun-tae-yanghttps://www.esportsearnings.com/players/1017-byun-hyun-woohttps://www.esportsearnings.com/players/3042-hero-kim-joon-hoSo maybe herO is a bad example, but TY is pretty similar to ByuN in terms of career. I mean we can then argue that TY actually won gold afterwards, whereas ByuN only got 3rd / 2nd or the likes, but then we gotta bring back soO... It is a never ending debate I don't have contacts among the KR players, but I highly doubt that they consider ByuN a patch terran (or what would they even consider Rogue then?)
If you ignore entirely korean starleague results then I guess Byun and TY are similar yeah
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This basically confirms that Pet will be #3 behind Maru/Serral, right?
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EPT
