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Garnet
Vietnam9037 Posts
On February 20 2024 11:09 Mizenhauer wrote: The general conceit of the Mvp case is: You know he was good, but you forgot how good! Exactly how I feel about Mvp. He didn't stand out in any particular aspect to me, all I remember was him beating everyone. | ||
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[N3O]r3d33m3r
Germany673 Posts
But it was a time where the game was in its infancy and many powerhouses didn't start to play yet (hello KeSPA) or others were too young (Maru? Serral?) and yet had to develop as players. The era right after when the KeSPA players switched over and the the most glaring imbalances got patched up to early LotV was the most competitive time that Mvp sadly didn't play in much. Without his health issues I reckon he'd be a decent player but not Top 4. Given all that happened I'd put him near the 10th spot but definitely not 4th. Lookingat other comments it seems like I'm not the only one with this line of thinking. But hey what do I know? Fun fact: I personally was super interested in not-so-succesful KeSPA-trained players like MC and Mvp and looked them up when they made the switch earlier than anyone else. I predicted that Mvp would become the best or one of the best players of early SC2 (that was still in 2010, mind you!) and I was right. He was the first legit A-team BW player that made the switch when he was still A-level. Others were long past their prime days (IntoTheRainbow/HopeTorture comes to mind). I also thought that UpMaGiC would have done well but since the match-fixing scandal we all now this wasn't possible anymore (anyone remember the VOD that Artosis made of him playing in the beta or early release in a PC Bang vs Idra, shortly after he was banned? Artosis later deleted it to not anger the officials I guess). | ||
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ZertoN
Germany214 Posts
other questionable things in this list are obviously dark getting left out, and somehow rain sneaking in at #10. it could only get more questionable if serral somehow gets given the #1 spot, but at this point anything is possible | ||
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Kitai
United States880 Posts
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argonautdice
Canada2719 Posts
On February 21 2024 10:26 Woosixion wrote: Life > Mvp. God I miss Life. He basically has the best shounen protagonist storyline (until he turned evil). Royal roading GSL at age 15 by defeating a resurgent King of Wings Mvp in a 7-game grand final (villain foreshadowing?) Collecting a triple crown in the next 3 months by winning MLG Dallas, Blizzard Cup, and Iron Squid 2. Winning the first Kespa-participating HotS Premier tournament MLG winter championship by stopping the BW bonjwa Flash in the grand final. Winning Blizzcon, IEM Taipei against an on-form Maru in a clutch grand final, and a GSL against an on-form PartinG in another clutch grand final during the "highest skill" era of 2014-2015. And last but not least, making it to back-to-back grand final of Blizzcon in 2015 against a resurgent sOs but this time unclutchly losing 3-4 as karmic retribution for matchfixing (corruption arc where he lost the soul of esports). A very poetic beginning and end. (Btw he's only 18 at this point.) But since this is real life, there's no redemption arc (unless ... ?) | ||
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argonautdice
Canada2719 Posts
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negativedge
4279 Posts
On February 21 2024 08:58 Mizenhauer wrote:Dark got very lucky being younger than most players. He's a very good player, but if he's born three years earlier (that would make him as old as soO) Dark retires for military somewhere in 2019-2020 and would have a far worse resume. that's...a weird argument? I mean, he wasn't born three years earlier. He has done what he's done. By the metric of irrelevant hypotheticals, what if all of MVP's brood war peers came over when he did, instead of 3 years later after he had peaked and declined? | ||
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spirit76
25 Posts
many here dont understand how dominant he was and how important he was to the game, he changed the game for everone. he was so ahead of the rest of the players, he was so smart, he had so many builds, it was amazing seeing him play and dominate in the way he did. he did it in the golden era of sc2. i will never forget those days. | ||
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WickedCestus
Canada25 Posts
Obviously no one is ever going to completely agree on a list like this, but I think Mizenhauer has brought an interesting perspective and methodology to the construction of the list, which feels consistent. I might disagree regarding how different eras are considered, but I can still appreciate where he's coming from. If I made a list, or if most commenters here made an individual list, it would probably drive even more people crazy than this one!!! | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results? Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance. To be honest ghost snipe + rapid fire hotkey tech that was made popular right around that time was not exactly some unknown secret available only to Mvp for execution (though i don't remember if Mvp actually used rapid fire, might explain the hand issues). But yeah, winning Blizzcon with it was sure a great hint for David Kim of the time to slap them down. | ||
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Parser
Italy88 Posts
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Woosixion
120 Posts
On February 21 2024 14:41 lolfail9001 wrote: To be honest ghost snipe + rapid fire hotkey tech that was made popular right around that time was not exactly some unknown secret available only to Mvp for execution (though i don't remember if Mvp actually used rapid fire, might explain the hand issues). But yeah, winning Blizzcon with it was sure a great hint for David Kim of the time to slap them down. oblivion? its still getting nerfed 10+ years later, that just shows you how ridiculously broken the spell is lol | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On February 21 2024 16:01 Woosixion wrote: oblivion? its still getting nerfed 10+ years later, that just shows you how ridiculously broken the spell is lol The spell doesn't exist anymore, it was replaced by steady targeting with LotV release | ||
Poopi
France12911 Posts
On February 21 2024 09:03 Mizenhauer wrote: ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either. ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 21 2024 16:01 Woosixion wrote: oblivion? its still getting nerfed 10+ years later, that just shows you how ridiculously broken the spell is lol It was nerfed into de facto oblivion right then. The LotV version is very, very different. | ||
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Woosixion
120 Posts
On February 21 2024 17:00 lolfail9001 wrote: It was nerfed into de facto oblivion right then. The LotV version is very, very different. fine, its a different version of the same spell.. but it still serves the same function. and they still saying its too strong being able to pewpew while cloaked even with the delay and all. What a nightmare that time was for zerg nestea really deserves more credit | ||
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Ronski
Finland266 Posts
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Poopi
France12911 Posts
On February 21 2024 19:36 Ronski wrote: Top 3 will be Dark, Rogue, Maru and TL forums will explode Miz heavily hinted at Serral #1, only question left is if Rogue is #3 or #2, which we will know in the next article! | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On February 21 2024 19:39 Poopi wrote: Miz heavily hinted at Serral #1, only question left is if Rogue is #3 or #2, which we will know in the next article! I can't see Maru or Serral requiring a full blog post for their games, but Rogue has so many wild strats, sniper builds and hilarious wins that I guess he's #3 | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
Dark is one of my favorite players but I can actually see why he wouldn't get top 10 on a greatest of all time list; he never really had that period of dominance that most other players on the list showed. If you had made a list of the best players of all time, I have no doubt that he would be there, however, a list like that is just not as interesting. So far I think my biggest disagreement is that I would swap the spots of Mvp and Inno. The skeptic in me suggests that you ranked them as such to keep the discussion about whether Mvp or Dark would make the list going longer. | ||
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