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Mizenhauer
United States1921 Posts
On February 22 2024 00:52 catplanetcatplanet wrote: This basically confirms that Pet will be #3 behind Maru/Serral, right? I have to respect you for being the only Pet fan. It's a lonely job, but someone has to do it :D | ||
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catplanetcatplanet
3835 Posts
On February 22 2024 01:01 Mizenhauer wrote: I have to respect you for being the only Pet fan. It's a lonely job, but someone has to do it :D Everything will change once you enshrine him as the third-greatest player of all time. I'll finally have friends! End my lonely vigil! | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1921 Posts
On February 22 2024 03:53 catplanetcatplanet wrote: Everything will change once you enshrine him as the third-greatest player of all time. I'll finally have friends! End my lonely vigil! Maybe I'll edit his liquipedia for you. | ||
Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
On February 20 2024 07:36 Waxangel wrote: Dark fan riot starts now What about my favorite patchzerg life? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way). His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010. Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes. He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it). However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2. The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr. Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL. | ||
Poopi
France12911 Posts
On February 22 2024 05:43 Hider wrote: His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010. Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes. He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it). However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2. The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr. Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL. Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify. MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote: Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify. MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc. However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses. If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors. WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC). But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup. Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL. I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26615 Posts
On February 22 2024 06:14 Hider wrote: I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc. However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses. If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors. WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC). But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup. Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL. I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay. I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all! Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from. | ||
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Kitaen
Austria466 Posts
On February 22 2024 06:02 Poopi wrote: Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify. MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted. It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven. And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose. | ||
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Poopi
France12911 Posts
Instead of a Time Machine though, we will probably be able to have AI agents that could somewhat mimic relatively accurately players of the past and stuff, so you would be able to play a tournament versus such players. I see that as theoretically possible, but it’s no easy feat so don’t know if it will be used for StarCraft | ||
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Locutos
Brazil273 Posts
#1 Serral #2 Reynor #3 Clem. Believe | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1236 Posts
On February 22 2024 08:00 Locutos wrote: IT will be #1 Serral #2 Reynor #3 Clem. Believe Reynor has already been confirmed to have been ranked #11-15, with "upwards mobility". That leaves #2 for Clem, though.  | ||
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EEk1TwEEk
Russian Federation192 Posts
With all due respect, a player who showed dominant performance for only 3 years +/- shouldn't be in the list | ||
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EEk1TwEEk
Russian Federation192 Posts
On February 22 2024 08:00 Locutos wrote: IT will be #1 Serral #2 Reynor #3 Clem. Believe You have a mental problem, what are your pronouns? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26615 Posts
On February 22 2024 16:04 EEk1TwEEk wrote: You have a mental problem, what are your pronouns? That’s an odd segueway to make like | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
What are we even McDonalds | ||
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Glorfindelio
223 Posts
On February 22 2024 16:04 EEk1TwEEk wrote: You have a mental problem, what are your pronouns? In mother Russia, freedom kills itself. | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2257 Posts
On February 22 2024 06:53 Kitaen wrote: I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted. It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven. And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose. I'm also a big fan of this theoretical scenario in which you can travel back in time to the open seasons. I think for one season, my chances might be okay because I could use broken builds in each match that just haven't been discovered yet. Which Zerg or Protoss in S1 would have been able to stop a perfectly executed good old 4-Gate? After a series, you'd have to pick something else, but I do believe there's enough stuff that you could pull through as a high masters/low GM player nowadays. But you're right, maybe I'm completely delusional. Making it through the qualifiers would definitely already be an incredibly difficult hurdle as the random cheesy sh1t you have to deal with may well throw off some of the most stable players when you have to fight your way through so much of it. So while I agree that the mechanics of the pros then were certainly better than today's random masters players', the build orders and actual strategies you could bring to a format where you have time to prepare may have you pull through. Perhaps you could just 4 Gate your way through the qualifiers, too, I don't know. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7165 Posts
On February 22 2024 16:04 EEk1TwEEk wrote: You have a mental problem, what are your pronouns? A Russian guy complaining about pronouns on TL is proof that America won the cultural war. | ||
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Durnuu
13322 Posts
On February 22 2024 17:45 Luolis wrote: A Russian guy complaining about pronouns on TL is proof that America won the cultural war. I thought movies like Dunkerque being critically acclaimed were proof enough | ||
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