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United States1798 Posts
On February 21 2024 02:53 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 02:15 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 01:16 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 01:01 WombaT wrote:On February 21 2024 00:26 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote:
Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral... I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount. I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before. If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane. Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense. I mean with Rain the comparison is more difficult because Rain won stuff, was a pioneer in how to play protoss his way, etc. As for soO, it’s difficult to see him there but not Dark, who was the best Zerg in the world in 2016 / 2019 and remained a top Zerg for long, while winning important tournaments. This Dark thing is so disappointing. It's been weeks of the same argument to which I can't respond despite having way more information available to me atm than you guys. Oh well, have to wait for blog stuff and hope people would be up for a good faith discussion. There is no reason you can't make a blog post now about Dark, particularly since its a highly debated topic in the community. Everyone would enjoy it. No need to follow self-imposed rules if they don't make sense. And now would be the time to do it, considering the community is more than happy to continue speculating about the exact order of the top 3 and Dark prior to #3 being published.
I'm just being a whiner that's all  I personally think it's better to wait until after the series to put out more stuff, but that's also to buy me time since these posts will take hours to do.
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On February 21 2024 01:15 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 01:03 Nasigil wrote:
The only reason anyone would place soO above Dark is if they VASTLY value peak over longevity.
soO had a slightly higher peak than Dark when he had like 4 straight GSL finals appearance and considered undoubtedly the best Zerg in the world. But Dark in 2016 was also considered best Zerg in the world unless my memory is tricking me. He reached the WCS finals during a time Zerg was relatively weak and you regularly see only one or no Zerg in tournament Ro.8. There's really not that big of a difference between their peak.
But Dark just has so much better longevity, he's been like top 3 Zerg and top 5 player in the world for last 8 years, got one world champ and one runner up, have even more 2nd places than soO had at this point, and of course much more first place.
It’s that tricky business of what do you value. And IMO there are many wrong answers, but few right ones. Is the guy who’s top 4-8 for a decade greater than the bloke who’s the best, or second best for a few? I think the scene just fell off slightly too early for Dark, + he didn’t capitalise as much as he could have, in combination. If the scene had remained deeper, Dark’s USP of being just this resolutely consistent presence deep in tournaments counts for slightly more. If he’d made even slightly more hay while the sun shined, he leapfrogs other players. As it is soO has more going for him in a tougher competitive era, even if it’s maybe more streaky, and Rogue took way better advantage of the last 4/5 years in populating his trophy cabinet. Essentially while this isn’t a widely shared position, I do think Dark’s career > Rogue’s overall. If Dark had even traded Starleagues and WCs with Rogue in this era it wouldn’t even be a question.
Yeah soO can be argued to be above Dark if you value results during the Kespa era highly but it makes absolutely 0 sense to have TY over Dark. They competed in the same era and Dark outperformed him in every metric
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On February 21 2024 02:27 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 02:15 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 21 2024 01:16 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 01:01 WombaT wrote:On February 21 2024 00:26 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote:
Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral... I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount. I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before. If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane. Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense. I mean with Rain the comparison is more difficult because Rain won stuff, was a pioneer in how to play protoss his way, etc. As for soO, it’s difficult to see him there but not Dark, who was the best Zerg in the world in 2016 / 2019 and remained a top Zerg for long, while winning important tournaments. This Dark thing is so disappointing. It's been weeks of the same argument to which I can't respond despite having way more information available to me atm than you guys. Oh well, have to wait for blog stuff and hope people would be up for a good faith discussion. Looking forward to hearing the rationale. I think Dark benefits a lot from recency bias. Without researching and just off the top of my head he was just starting to breakout around the end of HotS but didn't have "true" success until the scene dwindled a bit. It's far less impressive to win in a scene with less than 32 good players vs when the team houses were in full swing.
Sounds a lot like Rogue too
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Northern Ireland23663 Posts
On February 21 2024 03:28 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2024 23:49 Balnazza wrote:
I will admit, I forgot Mvp originally and was surprised when people brought him up as #4 instead of Dark. And even though I was against it, I can see his merits and reasons to be included in the Top 10.
No. 4 however just feels way too high. He was dominant for a very short amount of time, with an inflated number of GSL wins.
Like Maru, Mvp has won three GSLs in a year (I think...does that GSL Championship thingy count as a GSL?). But Maru won 3 out of 3, while Mvp won 3 out of 11. I know it is a projection, but imagine 2018 still had so many GSLs and Maru would have won like 7 out of 11...would anyone even talk about Mvp at this point?
Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS. I don't want to say it was "easy" to be as dominant as he was, of course not. But in my opinion it doesn't hold up to stronger players in later years.
Lastly, I don't think we can really ignore how Mvp left the scene. His last professional match was a 2-3 vs. MorroW, after that he only played a couple of qualifiers. Of course that might be him still trying against his injury, but it doesn't particularly scream "Vice-Vice-Vice-GOAT!" either. Yes, at the time the game was still getting figured out, there was a lot of balancing which players constantly needed to adapt to and here's the thing - it was the same for everyone, nobody had a headstart or anything, so saying that the skill level wasn't as good and therefore concluding Mvp had an easier time doesn't really make sense to me, as you have to put what he did into historical context. What people tend to forget is that we had an insane number of tournaments and leagues back then, the game was much more popular. A much higher cadence of specifically GSL (and GSTL) also meant less preparation time per match played and it comes with a higher overall volatility due to the game still being subject to getting further figured out by players/new strategies being discovered and the need of patches/balance adjustments in response to that, which, as we know, affected the outcome of quite a few tournaments over the game's lifecycle - and not always in favor of Terran. Pair this with the team house training regiments of the time this probably puts a higher strain on professional pro players, which can also contribute to higher fluctuation in performance and this, again, also is something Mvp was affected in the same way as the rest of the playing field. We also should not forget here that Maru's G5L trophy was originally created for Mvp 10 years prior, which is insane to think about as nobody else even came close for a decade. Regarding his twilight years and how he went out I also fail to see how this is used as an argument against him, just the opposite, he really tried despite his worsening condition and you could definitely see that he just couldn't pull off the mechanics anymore and thus had to rely on more gimmicky ways to take games off of opponents, which IMO really shows what a phenomenal understanding Mvp had of the game and is just further testament to his skill. Why he retired the way he did? I don't know and while I'm always sad when players just silently fade away without having a chance to wave a proper goodbye this in no way tarnishes their accolades IMO. Mvp was essentially the closest thing to a Bonjwa we got at the time in a game that was brutally volatile during this early era, which was loaded with the most competition the game has ever seen.
Well said sir!
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My boy Mvp! So fucking deserved. Mvp was the beast during the highest peak sc2 ever had. So sad he retired too early because of the injure 
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On February 21 2024 02:59 FFXthebest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 01:01 WombaT wrote:On February 21 2024 00:26 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote:
Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral... I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount. I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before. If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane. Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense. You can add TY to the list as well. He won his GSL when terran was overpowered
Nope, terran won 5 premier tournaments in 2020. Zerg won 10 premier tournaments between 6 different players
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On February 21 2024 03:39 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 03:28 Creager wrote:On February 20 2024 23:49 Balnazza wrote:
I will admit, I forgot Mvp originally and was surprised when people brought him up as #4 instead of Dark. And even though I was against it, I can see his merits and reasons to be included in the Top 10.
No. 4 however just feels way too high. He was dominant for a very short amount of time, with an inflated number of GSL wins.
Like Maru, Mvp has won three GSLs in a year (I think...does that GSL Championship thingy count as a GSL?). But Maru won 3 out of 3, while Mvp won 3 out of 11. I know it is a projection, but imagine 2018 still had so many GSLs and Maru would have won like 7 out of 11...would anyone even talk about Mvp at this point?
Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS. I don't want to say it was "easy" to be as dominant as he was, of course not. But in my opinion it doesn't hold up to stronger players in later years.
Lastly, I don't think we can really ignore how Mvp left the scene. His last professional match was a 2-3 vs. MorroW, after that he only played a couple of qualifiers. Of course that might be him still trying against his injury, but it doesn't particularly scream "Vice-Vice-Vice-GOAT!" either. Yes, at the time the game was still getting figured out, there was a lot of balancing which players constantly needed to adapt to and here's the thing - it was the same for everyone, nobody had a headstart or anything, so saying that the skill level wasn't as good and therefore concluding Mvp had an easier time doesn't really make sense to me, as you have to put what he did into historical context. What people tend to forget is that we had an insane number of tournaments and leagues back then, the game was much more popular. A much higher cadence of specifically GSL (and GSTL) also meant less preparation time per match played and it comes with a higher overall volatility due to the game still being subject to getting further figured out by players/new strategies being discovered and the need of patches/balance adjustments in response to that, which, as we know, affected the outcome of quite a few tournaments over the game's lifecycle - and not always in favor of Terran. Pair this with the team house training regiments of the time this probably puts a higher strain on professional pro players, which can also contribute to higher fluctuation in performance and this, again, also is something Mvp was affected in the same way as the rest of the playing field. We also should not forget here that Maru's G5L trophy was originally created for Mvp 10 years prior, which is insane to think about as nobody else even came close for a decade. Regarding his twilight years and how he went out I also fail to see how this is used as an argument against him, just the opposite, he really tried despite his worsening condition and you could definitely see that he just couldn't pull off the mechanics anymore and thus had to rely on more gimmicky ways to take games off of opponents, which IMO really shows what a phenomenal understanding Mvp had of the game and is just further testament to his skill. Why he retired the way he did? I don't know and while I'm always sad when players just silently fade away without having a chance to wave a proper goodbye this in no way tarnishes their accolades IMO. Mvp was essentially the closest thing to a Bonjwa we got at the time in a game that was brutally volatile during this early era, which was loaded with the most competition the game has ever seen. Well said sir!
Thank you, good sir!
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On February 21 2024 02:15 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 01:16 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 01:01 WombaT wrote:On February 21 2024 00:26 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote:
Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral... I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount. I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before. If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane. Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense. I mean with Rain the comparison is more difficult because Rain won stuff, was a pioneer in how to play protoss his way, etc. As for soO, it’s difficult to see him there but not Dark, who was the best Zerg in the world in 2016 / 2019 and remained a top Zerg for long, while winning important tournaments. This Dark thing is so disappointing. It's been weeks of the same argument to which I can't respond despite having way more information available to me atm than you guys. Oh well, have to wait for blog stuff and hope people would be up for a good faith discussion.
I have no pitchfork in my hand. It's pretty clear that you considered Dark very seriously since he's in just about every spreadsheet you've shown so far comparing winrates, championships etc. I'm very excited to hear the reasoning, since it feels like we've been getting almost every angle of it except for the actual message hahaha, it's almost like a movie trailer
I wonder what we readers have missed so far. Dark's statistics definitely don't seem outrageously good, but they seem comparable to just about everybody else on this list (except peak inno/maru/serral/mvp years and Rogue/sOs for WCs). Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)? Could it be that he's never been a meta-defining player since his style is inimitable? It can't be his lack of clutchness in finals, since he's no worse than soO (though his finals have mostly come in a less competitive era, so that's a ding against him). There are definitely plenty of possible reasons, so I wonder which one[s] tipped your hand. It's your list after all 
I do hope Dark is 11 though, since then my favorite three players of Rain/Dark/TY will be right next to each other :D
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United States1798 Posts
On February 21 2024 03:28 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2024 23:49 Balnazza wrote:
I will admit, I forgot Mvp originally and was surprised when people brought him up as #4 instead of Dark. And even though I was against it, I can see his merits and reasons to be included in the Top 10.
No. 4 however just feels way too high. He was dominant for a very short amount of time, with an inflated number of GSL wins.
Like Maru, Mvp has won three GSLs in a year (I think...does that GSL Championship thingy count as a GSL?). But Maru won 3 out of 3, while Mvp won 3 out of 11. I know it is a projection, but imagine 2018 still had so many GSLs and Maru would have won like 7 out of 11...would anyone even talk about Mvp at this point?
Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS. I don't want to say it was "easy" to be as dominant as he was, of course not. But in my opinion it doesn't hold up to stronger players in later years.
Lastly, I don't think we can really ignore how Mvp left the scene. His last professional match was a 2-3 vs. MorroW, after that he only played a couple of qualifiers. Of course that might be him still trying against his injury, but it doesn't particularly scream "Vice-Vice-Vice-GOAT!" either. Yes, at the time the game was still getting figured out, there was a lot of balancing which players constantly needed to adapt to and here's the thing - it was the same for everyone, nobody had a headstart or anything, so saying that the skill level wasn't as good and therefore concluding Mvp had an easier time doesn't really make sense to me, as you have to put what he did into historical context. What people tend to forget is that we had an insane number of tournaments and leagues back then, the game was much more popular. A much higher cadence of specifically GSL (and GSTL) also meant less preparation time per match played and it comes with a higher overall volatility due to the game still being subject to getting further figured out by players/new strategies being discovered and the need of patches/balance adjustments in response to that, which, as we know, affected the outcome of quite a few tournaments over the game's lifecycle - and not always in favor of Terran. Pair this with the team house training regiments of the time this probably puts a higher strain on professional pro players, which can also contribute to higher fluctuation in performance and this, again, also is something Mvp was affected in the same way as the rest of the playing field. We also should not forget here that Maru's G5L trophy was originally created for Mvp 10 years prior, which is insane to think about as nobody else even came close for a decade. Regarding his twilight years and how he went out I also fail to see how this is used as an argument against him, just the opposite, he really tried despite his worsening condition and you could definitely see that he just couldn't pull off the mechanics anymore and thus had to rely on more gimmicky ways to take games off of opponents, which IMO really shows what a phenomenal understanding Mvp had of the game and is just further testament to his skill. Why he retired the way he did? I don't know and while I'm always sad when players just silently fade away without having a chance to wave a proper goodbye this in no way tarnishes their accolades IMO. Mvp was essentially the closest thing to a Bonjwa we got at the time in a game that was brutally volatile during this early era, which was loaded with the most competition the game has ever seen.
I consider mvp to be the most dominant player ever because unlike serral (who is better than everyone) the scene was a lot more condensed in wol. Almost all the Koreans were in gsl and mvp saw the rest at Lans. Serral has experienced the misfortune of existing in a time when region locked events lead to less games against top tier competition (I have no doubt serral would dominate even more than mvp if he played koreans a few extra times per year) which for me lessens his aura of dominance. But that's all minutae.
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On February 21 2024 03:48 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 03:28 Creager wrote:On February 20 2024 23:49 Balnazza wrote:
I will admit, I forgot Mvp originally and was surprised when people brought him up as #4 instead of Dark. And even though I was against it, I can see his merits and reasons to be included in the Top 10.
No. 4 however just feels way too high. He was dominant for a very short amount of time, with an inflated number of GSL wins.
Like Maru, Mvp has won three GSLs in a year (I think...does that GSL Championship thingy count as a GSL?). But Maru won 3 out of 3, while Mvp won 3 out of 11. I know it is a projection, but imagine 2018 still had so many GSLs and Maru would have won like 7 out of 11...would anyone even talk about Mvp at this point?
Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS. I don't want to say it was "easy" to be as dominant as he was, of course not. But in my opinion it doesn't hold up to stronger players in later years.
Lastly, I don't think we can really ignore how Mvp left the scene. His last professional match was a 2-3 vs. MorroW, after that he only played a couple of qualifiers. Of course that might be him still trying against his injury, but it doesn't particularly scream "Vice-Vice-Vice-GOAT!" either. Yes, at the time the game was still getting figured out, there was a lot of balancing which players constantly needed to adapt to and here's the thing - it was the same for everyone, nobody had a headstart or anything, so saying that the skill level wasn't as good and therefore concluding Mvp had an easier time doesn't really make sense to me, as you have to put what he did into historical context. What people tend to forget is that we had an insane number of tournaments and leagues back then, the game was much more popular. A much higher cadence of specifically GSL (and GSTL) also meant less preparation time per match played and it comes with a higher overall volatility due to the game still being subject to getting further figured out by players/new strategies being discovered and the need of patches/balance adjustments in response to that, which, as we know, affected the outcome of quite a few tournaments over the game's lifecycle - and not always in favor of Terran. Pair this with the team house training regiments of the time this probably puts a higher strain on professional pro players, which can also contribute to higher fluctuation in performance and this, again, also is something Mvp was affected in the same way as the rest of the playing field. We also should not forget here that Maru's G5L trophy was originally created for Mvp 10 years prior, which is insane to think about as nobody else even came close for a decade. Regarding his twilight years and how he went out I also fail to see how this is used as an argument against him, just the opposite, he really tried despite his worsening condition and you could definitely see that he just couldn't pull off the mechanics anymore and thus had to rely on more gimmicky ways to take games off of opponents, which IMO really shows what a phenomenal understanding Mvp had of the game and is just further testament to his skill. Why he retired the way he did? I don't know and while I'm always sad when players just silently fade away without having a chance to wave a proper goodbye this in no way tarnishes their accolades IMO. Mvp was essentially the closest thing to a Bonjwa we got at the time in a game that was brutally volatile during this early era, which was loaded with the most competition the game has ever seen. I consider mvp to be the most dominant player ever because unlike serral (who is better than everyone) the scene was a lot more condensed. Almost all the Koreans were in gsl and mvp saw the rest at Lans. Serral has experienced the misfortune of existing in a time when region locked events lead to less games against top tier competition (I have no doubt serral would dominate if that were the case) which for me lessens his aura of dominance. But that's all minutae.
I feel similar, but this is probably just due to a big nostalgia bias for SC2's heyday and how fierce the competition felt due to things just being more popular overall. There's very little doubt modern players are just more refined and better mechanically, but Mvp truly felt like an anomaly back then, so I for my part am glad you put him in #4 here
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On February 21 2024 03:48 Mizenhauer wrote:
I consider mvp to be the most dominant player ever because unlike serral (who is better than everyone)
RANKING SPOILED SERRAL #1 YOU READ IT HERE FIRST!!!!oneone
;-)
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Damn, Dark pretty much confirmed to be out of Top 10 then.
Rogue pretty much is next then. Though, I would be pleasantly surprised if the Top 3 is not Serral Maru Rogue, and especially hyped if Rogue is above either Serral or Maru. Since the list so far is a more unique take and doesn't reflect popular sentiment, I'm ready for it to go all the way and give a spicy Top 3 take
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First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always.
The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically.
Notable tournament finishes (Rain):
2012 WCS Asia: 1st place
2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place
2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place
2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place
2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place
2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place
2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark):
2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place
2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place
2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place
2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place
2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place
2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place
2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place
2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place
2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place
2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that:
The Placement
TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.
Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us:
![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/GOAT2024/TY9/chart2.png)
Korean Individual Leagues:
TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4
Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4
Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4.
So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events:
TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017
Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012
Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016
Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives?
Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)?
I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY:
![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/GOAT2024/TY9/chart4.png)
From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY:
![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/GOAT2024/TY9/chart3.png)
TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
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The #10 spot on any top 10 is almost always a vanity pick, I think Miz is just a really big Rain fan. He was a successful player and he inspired some kind of particular feeling within Miz, an intangible that put him above some dudes with better results.
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On February 21 2024 06:50 RPR_Tempest wrote:
The #10 spot on any top 10 is almost always a vanity pick, I think Miz is just a really big Rain fan. He was a successful player and he inspired some kind of particular feeling within Miz, an intangible that put him above some dudes with better results.
That's fair, and to be fair I'm kinda just here procrastinating my work haha. You're right, I think I took the ranking a bit too literally. In reality, Dark is at minimum #10. (Though I'd still argue that when I look at the records, he's above TY as well).
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On February 21 2024 06:52 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 06:50 RPR_Tempest wrote:
The #10 spot on any top 10 is almost always a vanity pick, I think Miz is just a really big Rain fan. He was a successful player and he inspired some kind of particular feeling within Miz, an intangible that put him above some dudes with better results. That's fair, and to be fair I'm kinda just here procrastinating my work haha. You're right, I think I took the ranking a bit too literally. In reality, Dark is at minimum #10. (Though I'd still argue that when I look at the records, he's above TY as well).
I agree with you there, I'd put Dark above Rain, sOs and TY.
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On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote:
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Nice writeup! I felt the achievements didn't stack up, but didn't do a deep dive like you have. I definitely agree that match win rate is way more important than map win rate. Players' goals is to ultimately defeat their opponents, which you do by winning the match, which is not the same as having as high of a map winrate as possible. It's better to win 99% of matches 2-1 by a thread, than to win 95% of matches 2-0.
A reason for Dark not making it though could also just be due to his achievements being more spread out.
"Form is temporary, Class is permanent" kind of thing. I feel that longevity is not valued as much in this list as others do, unless that longevity has them being at the very top (I consider Dark to be at the bottom of the very top of other active players throughout the years, but he's usually around 3rd-5th best I guess).
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On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote:First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always. The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically. Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above. I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that: The Placement Show nested quote +TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain. Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us: Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4. So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events: TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016 Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives? Show nested quote +Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)? I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY: From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY: Show nested quote +TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY. We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer. Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table! To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Yeah, it's super strange. I'm waiting to see Miz's full explanation, but assuming there's no twist to the final spots (i.e. a tie with 4 players in the top 3), I can't even figure out a possible rationale for keeping Dark off the list. Personally, I don't feel like any of the stats used in the articles, such as particular winrates over a narrowly defined set of time where the player hit a peak, are particularly meaningful in the face of the long term, consistent success. And by that metric, Dark smokes every single player in SC2 history besides Serral and Maru. I can see the argument for MVP having better peak dominance, Inno having more success in the most competitive years, and Rogue having more premier golds, so that comes down to preference to whoever is making the list and what they personally weigh more heavily. But when players are on the list for having careers that are essentially just Dark's but worse, I take issue with that.
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United States1798 Posts
On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote:First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always. The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically. Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above. I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that: The Placement Show nested quote +TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain. Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us: Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4. So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events: TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016 Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives? Show nested quote +Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)? I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY: From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY: Show nested quote +TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY. We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer. Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table! To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Great post and we agree on the consistency. Dark is one of the most consistent players in history (which i will go into in length during the blog).
The rain thing is a pretty easy argument for me as he was a top 3 player in hots when it came to KIL. Ignore soO and ByuL for a moment since they are a combined 0-7 in KIL finals during hots. Rain and Inno were the only players to reach 3 KIL finals in hots and no one won more than Rain (two wins).
I understand a lot of people feel differently, but if all you do is count trophies then there's no reason for a list. You just do some 1+1 basic math and there you go. The Protoss Rain played in 2013 was the best we had seen up to that point (many people try to point out how trash everyone was and how they could go back and win gsl, but I think a player deserves great credit for playing at a never before seen level. Rain was also one match from being a double royal roader (though he would have had to play life in the final), but he was also one match away from making a second final opposite ByuL in 2015). It's funny how so much hinges on so few games. I didn't entertain hypotheticals in the article
Zest had a big part in overhauling Protoss in 2014 and it's fair to say he surpassed Rain as far as peak Protoss at that point. I personally prefer 2015 Rain to 2013 Rain as I think he was a far more well rounded player and I think he raised the level again.
In the end, you could argue Rain benefitted from retirement. Unlike soO, zest, inno, dark, classic, herO, rogue etc, Rain never had a long stretch of being sub par. He was a top tier from start to finish (barring a few months in 2014) and that's a very difficult thing to accomplish.
If Rain had generated those numbers in a career as long as Maru's, I wouldn';t think much of him at all. In fact, if your primary determiner of GOAT ness is trophies and final appearances, players like Cure and Solar should be ahead of a number of players who most people would consider much better than either of them, but didn't play for 11 years and didn't have as much time to build a nice trophy collection.
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EPT
