On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
That take is for away from the truth I am not sure how to start tackling it.... like your 50 total pros but only top 5 statment to back the "skill ceiling was low in HOTS" is literally the situation rigth now?
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
That was a sick bit of play right there!
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
We'll always have VSL (Back in 2017, Leenock randomly made the Ro4 despite some pretty stiff competition).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Welcome oh traveller!
I’m unsure whether Legacy is really more complex, rather than being outright faster. You perhaps swap out mechanical difficulty, for a little strategic/tactical depth as the early/midgame.
Hence I think you see a real notable falloff for a player like sOs who absolutely excelled with strategic and tactical brilliance in those phases, but wasn’t mechanically top tier even amongst his Protoss peers, never mind Terran and Zergs.
For me all the following can be true: 1. A Serral type has set a new high water mark for raw skill. 2. There are less top contenders, so it’s less competitive overall. There’s less genuine title contenders in a field who can push most to the absolute limit. 3. The foreign scene is stronger skill wise than before. 4. If the scene was more competitive, that skill ceiling reached would likely be even higher today compared to the past than it is now.
I’m not historically a people pleaser, and I’m not starting now :p I just genuinely do think that ‘Highest skilled era’ advocates and ‘Least competitive era’ acolytes can simultaneously both be correct.
Development in most human spheres the trajectory is up, even in niche activities via shared knowledge and optimisation over time. There will be some where it becomes too niche, or knowledge and expertise are lost over time, where the level of expertise and skill stagnate or go actively backwards. But I don’t think SC2 is quite at that stage, examples of the former would be superseded construction techniques for crafts, furniture and such items. Where a handful of people using traditional techniques start dying off and an even smaller handful of people they may have trained can merely hope to replicate, and so on.
So I think SC2 is in a zone where the skill level has moved up, but if it was more competitive structurally, it would have pushed up even further and more rapidly.
While I wouldn’t go as far to say they’re coasting, Maru or Dark don’t really have to commit 100% anymore either. Playing at 85/90% is generally enough for them to place high in GSLs and elsewhere. Below that, you have players roughly in the same scenario, maybe a few of them lack a GSL so have extra motivation. But it won’t be for the prize money, the differential really isn’t that big and the pool full stop isn’t that big.
It’s an arbitrary number but 85/90% effort, switching to all-out for a World Champ tier tourney is sufficient to keep a certain level of play maintained, but it’s not really pushing it upwards either.
Serral had to go all-out and keep pushing upwards if he was to hope to break through and establish himself amongst the best when he did, which had less depth than a few years prior, but still appreciably a lot more than today. He had to raise the skill level to do what he did, merely getting to an equal level and he’d just be one of a handful of championship contenders
I think what’s kept Serral at such a level is actually the mirror image of why the Korean scene has issues, the emergence of Reynor and subsequently Clem. Serral can’t just put his feet up and play at 85/90% and just win anyway because he’s that much better than the EU field at large.
Oops, getting way into TLDR territory. I think it’s a crying shame what happened to the Korean scene, when the new talent pipeline dried up it was just a matter of time until the reservoir of existing talent dried up too. And nobody came to help either, outside GSL patreons, contrast with very considered structural pushes to help the foreign scene over the years.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Welcome oh traveller!
I’m unsure whether Legacy is really more complex, rather than being outright faster. You perhaps swap out mechanical difficulty, for a little strategic/tactical depth as the early/midgame.
Hence I think you see a real notable falloff for a player like sOs who absolutely excelled with strategic and tactical brilliance in those phases, but wasn’t mechanically top tier even amongst his Protoss peers, never mind Terran and Zergs.
For me all the following can be true: 1. A Serral type has set a new high water mark for raw skill. 2. There are less top contenders, so it’s less competitive overall. There’s less genuine title contenders in a field who can push most to the absolute limit. 3. The foreign scene is stronger skill wise than before. 4. If the scene was more competitive, that skill ceiling reached would likely be even higher today compared to the past than it is now.
I’m not historically a people pleaser, and I’m not starting now :p I just genuinely do think that ‘Highest skilled era’ advocates and ‘Least competitive era’ acolytes can simultaneously both be correct.
Development in most human spheres the trajectory is up, even in niche activities via shared knowledge and optimisation over time. There will be some where it becomes too niche, or knowledge and expertise are lost over time, where the level of expertise and skill stagnate or go actively backwards. But I don’t think SC2 is quite at that stage, examples of the former would be superseded construction techniques for crafts, furniture and such items. Where a handful of people using traditional techniques start dying off and an even smaller handful of people they may have trained can merely hope to replicate, and so on.
So I think SC2 is in a zone where the skill level has moved up, but if it was more competitive structurally, it would have pushed up even further and more rapidly.
While I wouldn’t go as far to say they’re coasting, Maru or Dark don’t really have to commit 100% anymore either. Playing at 85/90% is generally enough for them to place high in GSLs and elsewhere. Below that, you have players roughly in the same scenario, maybe a few of them lack a GSL so have extra motivation. But it won’t be for the prize money, the differential really isn’t that big and the pool full stop isn’t that big.
It’s an arbitrary number but 85/90% effort, switching to all-out for a World Champ tier tourney is sufficient to keep a certain level of play maintained, but it’s not really pushing it upwards either.
Serral had to go all-out and keep pushing upwards if he was to hope to break through and establish himself amongst the best when he did, which had less depth than a few years prior, but still appreciably a lot more than today. He had to raise the skill level to do what he did, merely getting to an equal level and he’d just be one of a handful of championship contenders
I think what’s kept Serral at such a level is actually the mirror image of why the Korean scene has issues, the emergence of Reynor and subsequently Clem. Serral can’t just put his feet up and play at 85/90% and just win anyway because he’s that much better than the EU field at large.
Oops, getting way into TLDR territory. I think it’s a crying shame what happened to the Korean scene, when the new talent pipeline dried up it was just a matter of time until the reservoir of existing talent dried up too. And nobody came to help either, outside GSL patreons, contrast with very considered structural pushes to help the foreign scene over the years.
A very well thought out response.
Yes, I think we can all unanimously agree that the skill floor would be raised up if the global pool of talents were as large as it was in the heyday of SC2. Realistically, though, I think we shouldn't overestimated this aspect too much. A runner can only improve his speed/endurance so much, regardless of the size of pool of runners. He may be more motivated; or perhaps, more overwhelmed. Same in most other arenas of competition.
I think Protoss has lost so many top talents, that it's very sad even if herO and Classic will suddenly surge upward and claim some big wins. We used to have some great lategame protoss, such as Neeb and Trap. I still remember that one Pig Sty 4-3 series between Serral and Trap that went beyond 3 hours. That was incredible, and we likely will never see it again. Perhaps it is because Serral has gotten too good, but I think it's also because we longer have a lategame Protoss.
I think we'll just have to get used to the reality that RTS genre and SC will remain a very niche sector of gaming. SC2's early exuberance was by and large inherited from the global attention focused toward Brood War, which at that time was the only major pro gaming arena. Unfortunately for SC2, other pro gaming spheres propped up, and now we're relegated to the children's seat at the table. Oh, well...what can we do?
Still, there is, in my opinion, enough passion within this niche community to keep SC competition going perhaps a few more years. It's just a question of how much funding continues to go into it, to which in all likelihood, the answer will be such that there will probably be no new talents to replace the soon-to-retire ones. That will be the eve of SC2. We had a good run, anyway.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
We'll always have VSL (Back in 2017, Leenock randomly made the Ro4 despite some pretty stiff competition).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
We'll always have VSL (Back in 2017, Leenock randomly made the Ro4 despite some pretty stiff competition).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
We'll always have VSL (Back in 2017, Leenock randomly made the Ro4 despite some pretty stiff competition).
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
The claim that a casual GM player could win one of the first GSL seasons, sure, they would have a good chance. But even then it would rely on them figuring out the busted builds and allins everyone was doing to get to a macro game.
Besides, the early GSL seasons were so far removed from even the seasons 1 year later in terms of skill and understanding, let alone 2013 onwards. The fact people think any GM now would win tournaments in HotS is weird, there were many HotS players who had been pros training in teamhouses for 5-10 years prior.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
That's not the point. Of course with a greater pool of talents, you'll see a greater variety of champions in the initial stages of the game. The game was far less developed back then in virtually every way, except for the pro gaming infrastructure. When you have an undeveloped game, you'll get a number of players cooking up a variety of builds and strategies never seen before, which creates a scenario in which many people can get a strong chance at holding the trophy, if they can throw enough wrenches into the works. Case in point: sOs. Over time, however, these builds/strats just keep narrowing to fewer ones that actually can work, because most of them simply got figured out, or players developed the mechanical skills to deal with them, while also newer plays were developed, often requiring more APM and multitasking. This process takes years to develop, and we now see players far more polished and knowledgeable than the version of themself from 5 years ago, let alone 10 years.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
The claim that a casual GM player could win one of the first GSL seasons, sure, they would have a good chance. But even then it would rely on them figuring out the busted builds and allins everyone was doing to get to a macro game.
Besides, the early GSL seasons were so far removed from even the seasons 1 year later in terms of skill and understanding, let alone 2013 onwards. The fact people think any GM now would win tournaments in HotS is weird, there were many HotS players who had been pros training in teamhouses for 5-10 years prior.
Aye I’m just saying I rarely encounter that specific claim, mostly because it’s bloody mental.
I’ve still quite a backlog to get through from this series, which I’m looking forward to, but anyone who can watch say, that Taeja versus Innovation game and with a straight face say a decent upper GM player today could remotely hang at that level is an insane person.
My general observance of recent viewing (not all GOAT related) 1. The level is recognisably close to today’s, and from a way earlier point that I would have assumed. 2. Taeja was really bloody good and absolutely would have been a contender for a long time if not for his injuries.
I’m not seeing a huge amount lacking in play wayyyy back, I mean sure people make mistakes, they still do today.
There’s some optimisations here and there, players today are just that little better at consistently dealing with certain things a little better, like Zergs rarely eat big mine hits today. Modern creep spread is pretty insane.
Really I’d say only Serral (obviously) doing his thing, maybe Reynor at his absolute peak, and Maru and Clem (at his best) in TvZ are doing things at a level I haven’t yet seen in my rewatching. Peak Inno’s parade pushing madness is still not far off, but Zergs weren’t quite as relentless as they are these days, and he didn’t have that transition to a brutal defensive game down like those guys manage.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
The claim that a casual GM player could win one of the first GSL seasons, sure, they would have a good chance. But even then it would rely on them figuring out the busted builds and allins everyone was doing to get to a macro game.
Besides, the early GSL seasons were so far removed from even the seasons 1 year later in terms of skill and understanding, let alone 2013 onwards. The fact people think any GM now would win tournaments in HotS is weird, there were many HotS players who had been pros training in teamhouses for 5-10 years prior.
Probably not HotS. HotS players were already lightyears ahead of WoL players. I would say a 6.5k EU player would have a very strong chance in any premiere HotS, Korean or otherwise, if you give them two months to study that era's builds and practice. WoL would be a slaughter. Those WoL guys compared to players of today look very one-dimensional, except maybe in the micro department, but micro is really for the most part more to do with reaction speed and mechanical dexterity, which has also improved throughout the years, albeit the slowest. It's the multitasking, eAPM, and understanding of every aspect of the game, and complex armies controls that have improved by leaps and bounds.
Byun and various EU players (hello Joona Goatala), and several modern Korean players have proven that the whole teamhouse thing wasn't all it's made out to be. I myself don't get it. Starcraft was never a team sport to begin with. You can practice with whomever online at your own leisure. The first impression I got of the Korean teamhouses was: damn, this looks uncomfortable. Their contracts stipulate many hours of mandatory practice, and they seem to get very little privacy, and the idea of a private life goes out the window. Not necessarily ideal training conditions.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
The claim that a casual GM player could win one of the first GSL seasons, sure, they would have a good chance. But even then it would rely on them figuring out the busted builds and allins everyone was doing to get to a macro game.
Besides, the early GSL seasons were so far removed from even the seasons 1 year later in terms of skill and understanding, let alone 2013 onwards. The fact people think any GM now would win tournaments in HotS is weird, there were many HotS players who had been pros training in teamhouses for 5-10 years prior.
Byun and various EU players (hello Joona Goatala), and several modern Korean players have proven that the whole teamhouse thing wasn't all it's made out to be. I myself don't get it. Starcraft was never a team sport to begin with. You can practice with whomever online at your own leisure. The first impression I got of the Korean teamhouses was: damn, this looks uncomfortable. Their contracts stipulate many hours of mandatory practice, and they seem to get very little privacy, and the idea of a private life goes out the window. Not necessarily ideal training conditions.
They've proven it how exactly? By winning once the teamhouses disbanded? I'll give you ByuN, although news of the death of Proleague likely didn't help
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
That's not the point. Of course with a greater pool of talents, you'll see a greater variety of champions in the initial stages of the game. The game was far less developed back then in virtually every way, except for the pro gaming infrastructure. When you have an undeveloped game, you'll get a number of players cooking up a variety of builds and strategies never seen before, which creates a scenario in which many people can get a strong chance at holding the trophy, if they can throw enough wrenches into the works. Case in point: sOs. Over time, however, these builds/strats just keep narrowing to fewer ones that actually can work, because most of them simply got figured out, or players developed the mechanical skills to deal with them, while also newer plays were developed, often requiring more APM and multitasking. This process takes years to develop, and we now see players far more polished and knowledgeable than the version of themself from 5 years ago, let alone 10 years.
These strategies have been narrowed because LotV killed the earlygame and made the game faster so its just more about mechanics now than actual strategy...
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
The claim that a casual GM player could win one of the first GSL seasons, sure, they would have a good chance. But even then it would rely on them figuring out the busted builds and allins everyone was doing to get to a macro game.
Besides, the early GSL seasons were so far removed from even the seasons 1 year later in terms of skill and understanding, let alone 2013 onwards. The fact people think any GM now would win tournaments in HotS is weird, there were many HotS players who had been pros training in teamhouses for 5-10 years prior.
Probably not HotS. HotS players were already lightyears ahead of WoL players. I would say a 6.5k EU player would have a very strong chance in any premiere HotS, Korean or otherwise, if you give them two months to study that era's builds and practice. WoL would be a slaughter. Those WoL guys compared to players of today look very one-dimensional, except maybe in the micro department, but micro is really for the most part more to do with reaction speed and mechanical dexterity, which has also improved throughout the years, albeit the slowest. It's the multitasking, eAPM, and understanding of every aspect of the game, and complex armies controls that have improved by leaps and bounds.
Byun and various EU players (hello Joona Goatala), and several modern Korean players have proven that the whole teamhouse thing wasn't all it's made out to be. I myself don't get it. Starcraft was never a team sport to begin with. You can practice with whomever online at your own leisure. The first impression I got of the Korean teamhouses was: damn, this looks uncomfortable. Their contracts stipulate many hours of mandatory practice, and they seem to get very little privacy, and the idea of a private life goes out the window. Not necessarily ideal training conditions.
A 6.5K EU player is a pretty decent pro, there’s currently Heromarine and Showtime at 6.7 and 6.6 respectively, then a wee gap to whoever is 8th on the ladder at 6.3, don’t recognise the nick.
I mean you’re talking the best European players, possibly the best non-Koreans outside of Serral/Clem/Reynor. I mean yeah somebody like that I could see prospering if sent back in time, but others claim like a non-pro stock GM could which I just feel there’s no way.
Agree and disagree on team houses, their track record is pretty undeniable. I do feel aspects of them from what I’ve heard sound sub-optimal, or into the realm of diminishing returns if we’re talking purely on producing StarCraft players. On a human level I also believe too much is sacrificed in wider development and it won’t suit all personalities (see Byun).
Equally it took a very long time for a non teamhouse-raised player to break into the S tier of SC2 players for any period. Stephano showed he could occasionally dance with some of the top Koreans, but I don’t think he could have won say, a Code S or a Blizzcon. When you did see that breakthrough it was quite a while after that regime, and the Proleague competition that dovetailed neatly with team houses, in-house under wraps grinding for the upcoming match.
In Brood War I mean nobody has broken into the top level in like, 15+ years outside of that system? And it’s not as if it hasn’t been consistently popular in Korea. Soma perhaps but I’m unsure if he spent time in one despite not having a pro career in the Kespa days, someone can correct me!
There are some big advantages in all being together, in a camaraderie sense as well as just an ease of collaborating. Me and my buddies absolutely could coach each other and brainstorm remotely, but we’d get more done in a LAN. Having done LANs for years, apart from the joy of trying out about 15 different mechanical keyboards, a rare pleasure indeed, you notice everyone has all sorts of quirks with their setup, how they physically move their hands.
Plus having some elite StarCraft players who are teammates and who literally live with you in your workplace has certain advantages. You can collectively work on new stuff together and keep it in-house (Slayers and their memorable blue flame build springs to mind) Sickness aside you’re never going to not have practice partners available, or folks to analyse games with because well, you’re in work and you don’t have to worry about syncing schedules with folks to get high quality practice. Especially as if you’re an elite, elite player it’s hard to find practice partners who aren’t your direct competitors.
I do think the European Zerg HivemindTM and how they’ve replicated some of that, or indeed innovated in a remote sense has worked really well. Reynor rather famously practicing for a likely Maru showdown at Katowice with a few high-tier, but decidedly very sub-Maru Terran players teaming up against him in archon mode was pretty inspired. 2/3 players who individually couldn’t lay a glove on Maru together can play at a level even he can’t, pretty cool stuff.
But as I said earlier I do think things can be excessive and hit a point of diminishing returns too if we’re talking team houses. Work smarter, not harder as they say. But, as they also say, horses for courses. Perhaps the team house structure, or something similar is a better fit for the average Korean culturally, I’d be intrigued to hear the thoughts of someone with more knowledge here!
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
That's not the point. Of course with a greater pool of talents, you'll see a greater variety of champions in the initial stages of the game. The game was far less developed back then in virtually every way, except for the pro gaming infrastructure. When you have an undeveloped game, you'll get a number of players cooking up a variety of builds and strategies never seen before, which creates a scenario in which many people can get a strong chance at holding the trophy, if they can throw enough wrenches into the works. Case in point: sOs. Over time, however, these builds/strats just keep narrowing to fewer ones that actually can work, because most of them simply got figured out, or players developed the mechanical skills to deal with them, while also newer plays were developed, often requiring more APM and multitasking. This process takes years to develop, and we now see players far more polished and knowledgeable than the version of themself from 5 years ago, let alone 10 years.
These strategies have been narrowed because LotV killed the earlygame and made the game faster so its just more about mechanics now than actual strategy...
I have a theory that Blizzard designed LotV specifically to nerf $o€
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
That's not the point. Of course with a greater pool of talents, you'll see a greater variety of champions in the initial stages of the game. The game was far less developed back then in virtually every way, except for the pro gaming infrastructure. When you have an undeveloped game, you'll get a number of players cooking up a variety of builds and strategies never seen before, which creates a scenario in which many people can get a strong chance at holding the trophy, if they can throw enough wrenches into the works. Case in point: sOs. Over time, however, these builds/strats just keep narrowing to fewer ones that actually can work, because most of them simply got figured out, or players developed the mechanical skills to deal with them, while also newer plays were developed, often requiring more APM and multitasking. This process takes years to develop, and we now see players far more polished and knowledgeable than the version of themself from 5 years ago, let alone 10 years.
These strategies have been narrowed because LotV killed the earlygame and made the game faster so its just more about mechanics now than actual strategy...
I have a theory that Blizzard designed LotV specifically to nerf $o€
Nerfing SoS and buffing macro zerg... slowly killed SoS's career ;(
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
That's not the point. Of course with a greater pool of talents, you'll see a greater variety of champions in the initial stages of the game. The game was far less developed back then in virtually every way, except for the pro gaming infrastructure. When you have an undeveloped game, you'll get a number of players cooking up a variety of builds and strategies never seen before, which creates a scenario in which many people can get a strong chance at holding the trophy, if they can throw enough wrenches into the works. Case in point: sOs. Over time, however, these builds/strats just keep narrowing to fewer ones that actually can work, because most of them simply got figured out, or players developed the mechanical skills to deal with them, while also newer plays were developed, often requiring more APM and multitasking. This process takes years to develop, and we now see players far more polished and knowledgeable than the version of themself from 5 years ago, let alone 10 years.
These strategies have been narrowed because LotV killed the earlygame and made the game faster so its just more about mechanics now than actual strategy...
I have a theory that Blizzard designed LotV specifically to nerf $o€
Reflecting on this (my first feature), it makes sense that players eventually found more openings. If you watch early 2016 StarCraft II there are numerous high profile matches in which players looked worse than they had the previous years (which totally makes sense given they had been playing HotS for 3-4 years and they had to relearn the game to a degree in Lotv).
I definitely got the feeling that the number of builds expanded over the years, but I think (take this with a grain of salt as I'm not spending another 75 hours tracking every opener in a season of Code S) that, in more recent years, the builds have already homogenized. This makes sense given the players only have to deal with one meaningful patch a year and they've had eight years to optimize Lotv. I'd be really interested to find out exactly how this evolved season by season, but that's too big of an undertaking for anyone.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
The claim that a casual GM player could win one of the first GSL seasons, sure, they would have a good chance. But even then it would rely on them figuring out the busted builds and allins everyone was doing to get to a macro game.
Besides, the early GSL seasons were so far removed from even the seasons 1 year later in terms of skill and understanding, let alone 2013 onwards. The fact people think any GM now would win tournaments in HotS is weird, there were many HotS players who had been pros training in teamhouses for 5-10 years prior.
Byun and various EU players (hello Joona Goatala), and several modern Korean players have proven that the whole teamhouse thing wasn't all it's made out to be. I myself don't get it. Starcraft was never a team sport to begin with. You can practice with whomever online at your own leisure. The first impression I got of the Korean teamhouses was: damn, this looks uncomfortable. Their contracts stipulate many hours of mandatory practice, and they seem to get very little privacy, and the idea of a private life goes out the window. Not necessarily ideal training conditions.
How exactly did they? Serral didn't even go full time until years after teams disbanded. ByuN won literally the last season before the disband when every teamhouse player thought their career was over
A far better example you could have given is Rain, who won GSL despite not being on a Kespa team (he was on basically a sponsorship not a team, like players now have). Or INno, who won GSL despite joining a Kespa team a week before the GSL final.
Otherwise, when teamhouses were in effect, they largely produced the best players. Even after the disband, Jin Air, the one team left, were absolutely dominant. Maru, Rogue, and Trap were cruising.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
That's not the point. Of course with a greater pool of talents, you'll see a greater variety of champions in the initial stages of the game. The game was far less developed back then in virtually every way, except for the pro gaming infrastructure. When you have an undeveloped game, you'll get a number of players cooking up a variety of builds and strategies never seen before, which creates a scenario in which many people can get a strong chance at holding the trophy, if they can throw enough wrenches into the works. Case in point: sOs. Over time, however, these builds/strats just keep narrowing to fewer ones that actually can work, because most of them simply got figured out, or players developed the mechanical skills to deal with them, while also newer plays were developed, often requiring more APM and multitasking. This process takes years to develop, and we now see players far more polished and knowledgeable than the version of themself from 5 years ago, let alone 10 years.
These strategies have been narrowed because LotV killed the earlygame and made the game faster so its just more about mechanics now than actual strategy...
I have a theory that Blizzard designed LotV specifically to nerf $o€
EPT
