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On December 08 2022 21:54 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2022 21:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 08 2022 20:43 Creager wrote:On December 08 2022 19:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 08 2022 18:06 tigera6 wrote:This is what you get for Maru winning G5L, Clem winning E5L and Bunny beating Serral, now we only need to see the return of Pride and Glittering Ash, that would make me laugh so hard. On December 08 2022 17:53 hjpalpha wrote:
in general i really dislike these changes, they look like they were written by 2 zergs and a toss and fuck over terran pretty hard Considering the guys who are part of the committee are Zerg and Protoss, this should not be that shocking. The last patch was about taking the Skytoss - Queen Walk in PvZ, and now they are dealing with PvT and ZvT. It's on brand for SC2 so bad. I keep trying to tell you guys. Zerg isn't allowed to not be dominant because without them the Europeans will never win anything. Wait what, are you trying to imply that outside of Korea Terran never really has been relevant competitively? I can't deny that I'm still a tiny little bit butthurt about TLO's betrayal of the steel lifting family and to even do it with this lame 'creativity' excuse of his and then still not delivering results!!!!! Shame on you, Dario, you were the chosen one, supposed to bring balance to EU, not join them filthy non-Terrans!!!! But regarding the changes, some like creep nerf and shield battery nerf look good on first glance, snipe cancel change might be good, but why increase Observer speed lol, to me seems like another variation of 'yeah let's give P a freepass to be lazy with army/unit control' to me, see HT auto attack or parking. The observer speed thing is a revert of a previous pointless change they made to Protoss. Artosis has a video ranting about how it was the dumbest change he's ever seen. The larger model size is their way of attacking that same "issue" of low level Terrans not being able to kill observers by making them easier to see with the shimmer I suppose. It's completely ridiculous and I don't know why they think it's an issue that needs addressing but the important thing is that the Observer speed "buff" in this patch is simply a revert back to what it was for years and years previously. As for the whole "Terran is only viable in Korea" that's not the point I'm making with my rants about Zerg. Terran is doing better now in the foreign pro scene than in any previous point in SC2's history except for VERY early WoL. They're frequently competitive now but not "Best in the World" or "World Champion" competitive. That level of competitive for foreigners has been reserved for Zerg players only, and has been for years. Whenever Zerg looks like it might start to struggle even a little bit, they IMMEDIATELY get buffed because Blizz can't allow it for Foreign pros to not have their best race be competitive with the Korean elite players. Meanwhile when Zerg is dominant, like they were for years and arguable still are, Blizzard is PAINFULLY slow in nerfing them even when the level of dominance they display like in 2019 is unlike anything the other races have ever demonstrated outside of again early WoL. It's a consistent pattern. Blizz has been doing it for years. The question is why? But I'm convinced the answer is because of Zerg's untouchable place as the only race that has ever had success for foreigners at the top top level. Blizzard doesn't want to change that. But we have rising foreign stars that play other races, such as Clem for terran and MaxPax for protoss. MaxPax doesn't want to show himself so you can't market him, but Clem can be the poster boy! The only thing preventing them is probably the fact that if you make terran as strong as the other two races and/or stronger, Maru will simply win everything and he is a KR player.
And "worse" than that. If you make Terran that strong, the lower tier of Terran players, the ones who are better than everyone else in the foreign scene EXCEPT the tip top Zergs will start to crush the foreign scene even harder including their top Zergs, making the foreign scene irrelevant in World Championship conversations.
That's the fear Blizzard has, and that's the reason Zerg keeps getting a fucking handicap. The well of Korean Terran depth is too deep for them to ever give Clem the same kind of advantage the Zergs get. There's no strong showing of Protoss in the foreign scene that gives them an opportunity for that kind of treatment either.
No it's always just Zerg. It was the most popular foreign pro race in WoL and it's remained that way. Zerg is the only race where there is more top level foreign talent than there is Korean and with the mirror match up being a coinflip like it usually is, it gives them a chance to beat the Koreans even when the deck is stacked.
The theory really does make a lot of sense if you look back at SC2's history through that lense. Blizzard remembers too well how top Korean Terrans that couldn't win a GSL would go abroad and absolutely dominate the foreign scene. They don't want that happening again.
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On December 08 2022 21:35 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2022 20:43 Creager wrote:On December 08 2022 19:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 08 2022 18:06 tigera6 wrote:This is what you get for Maru winning G5L, Clem winning E5L and Bunny beating Serral, now we only need to see the return of Pride and Glittering Ash, that would make me laugh so hard. On December 08 2022 17:53 hjpalpha wrote:
in general i really dislike these changes, they look like they were written by 2 zergs and a toss and fuck over terran pretty hard Considering the guys who are part of the committee are Zerg and Protoss, this should not be that shocking. The last patch was about taking the Skytoss - Queen Walk in PvZ, and now they are dealing with PvT and ZvT. It's on brand for SC2 so bad. I keep trying to tell you guys. Zerg isn't allowed to not be dominant because without them the Europeans will never win anything. Wait what, are you trying to imply that outside of Korea Terran never really has been relevant competitively? I can't deny that I'm still a tiny little bit butthurt about TLO's betrayal of the steel lifting family and to even do it with this lame 'creativity' excuse of his and then still not delivering results!!!!! Shame on you, Dario, you were the chosen one, supposed to bring balance to EU, not join them filthy non-Terrans!!!! But regarding the changes, some like creep nerf and shield battery nerf look good on first glance, snipe cancel change might be good, but why increase Observer speed lol, to me seems like another variation of 'yeah let's give P a freepass to be lazy with army/unit control' to me, see HT auto attack or parking. The observer speed thing is a revert of a previous pointless change they made to Protoss. Artosis has a video ranting about how it was the dumbest change he's ever seen. The larger model size is their way of attacking that same "issue" of low level Terrans not being able to kill observers by making them easier to see with the shimmer I suppose. It's completely ridiculous and I don't know why they think it's an issue that needs addressing but the important thing is that the Observer speed "buff" in this patch is simply a revert back to what it was for years and years previously. As for the whole "Terran is only viable in Korea" that's not the point I'm making with my rants about Zerg. Terran is doing better now in the foreign pro scene than in any previous point in SC2's history except for VERY early WoL. They're frequently competitive now but not "Best in the World" or "World Champion" competitive. That level of competitive for foreigners has been reserved for Zerg players only, and has been for years. Whenever Zerg looks like it might start to struggle even a little bit, they IMMEDIATELY get buffed because Blizz can't allow it for Foreign pros to not have their best race be competitive with the Korean elite players. Meanwhile when Zerg is dominant, like they were for years and arguable still are, Blizzard is PAINFULLY slow in nerfing them even when the level of dominance they display like in 2019 is unlike anything the other races have ever demonstrated outside of again early WoL. It's a consistent pattern. Blizz has been doing it for years. The question is why? But I'm convinced the answer is because of Zerg's untouchable place as the only race that has ever had success for foreigners at the top top level. Blizzard doesn't want to change that.
You're actually wrong, the Observer was for years and years the way it currently is. Blizzard tried buffing the Speed but shortly afterwards reverted it again with the justification you mentioned
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The Observer and the Protoss upgrades are set between the last two patch changes for each respectively.
Obs Speed: from 3.01->2.63 and now from 2.63->2.82.
Forge upg's: increased by lvl 1: 15; lvl 2: 18; lvl 3: 22. And now decreased by lvl 1: 7; lvl 2: 9; lvl 3: 11.
So they're not full reverts, but half. It should be mentioned that Cyber Core upgrades are remained unchanged..
Also the Sentry build time buff is only on the Gate Way, not the Warp Gate. So it's hardly as strong as people want it to be.
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Surprised to see such a list of changes!
Glad to see the game can still receive some refreshing changes once in awhile.
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On December 08 2022 21:54 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2022 18:10 Charoisaur wrote:
Well after thinking a bit, changes don't seem to bad. 13.5 range to cancel snipe seems quite large, so it won't be easy to cancel it and Broodlings got less life span, EMP change seems like a buff and a nerf at the same time since the upgrade was quite expensive.
Only thing I really dislike is the sensor tower change which seems really uncalled for and I'm not sure what's the point of the Raven changes.
This won't make them less dominant in TvT as they are cheaper now and still disable tanks for long enough to win a fight 13.5 range is tiny. Snipe range is 10, so if you start a snipe at max range, the target unit only has to move 3.5 units away. To put it in perspective, even a queen (on creep) can walk out of snipe range if the Zerg reacts quickly.
If Queen, even on creep, can walk away from Snipe, then its completely F up, might just as well reduce Snipe damage vs Mid/Large unit or something.
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On December 08 2022 21:54 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2022 18:10 Charoisaur wrote:
Well after thinking a bit, changes don't seem to bad. 13.5 range to cancel snipe seems quite large, so it won't be easy to cancel it and Broodlings got less life span, EMP change seems like a buff and a nerf at the same time since the upgrade was quite expensive.
Only thing I really dislike is the sensor tower change which seems really uncalled for and I'm not sure what's the point of the Raven changes.
This won't make them less dominant in TvT as they are cheaper now and still disable tanks for long enough to win a fight 13.5 range is tiny. Snipe range is 10, so if you start a snipe at max range, the target unit only has to move 3.5 units away. To put it in perspective, even a queen (on creep) can walk out of snipe range if the Zerg reacts quickly.
I think this is mainly about Viper - Ghost interaction. With Vipers not able to immediately move away after casting abduct this was their main goal IMO.
VS Zerg you can still force unburrow of lurkers or force Zerg to disengage unfavorably. Broodlord with new speed has to be tested, dunno. Other units like Hydra, Ultra etc were never really the "main" target of Snipe anyway
VS Toss it's better to use EMP in most cases.
Obviously I could be completely wrong about everything. We'll see 
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On December 08 2022 23:29 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2022 21:54 Athenau wrote:On December 08 2022 18:10 Charoisaur wrote:
Well after thinking a bit, changes don't seem to bad. 13.5 range to cancel snipe seems quite large, so it won't be easy to cancel it and Broodlings got less life span, EMP change seems like a buff and a nerf at the same time since the upgrade was quite expensive.
Only thing I really dislike is the sensor tower change which seems really uncalled for and I'm not sure what's the point of the Raven changes.
This won't make them less dominant in TvT as they are cheaper now and still disable tanks for long enough to win a fight 13.5 range is tiny. Snipe range is 10, so if you start a snipe at max range, the target unit only has to move 3.5 units away. To put it in perspective, even a queen (on creep) can walk out of snipe range if the Zerg reacts quickly. I think this is mainly about Viper - Ghost interaction. With Vipers not able to immediately move away after casting abduct this was their main goal IMO. VS Zerg you can still force unburrow of lurkers or force Zerg to disengage unfavorably. Broodlord with new speed has to be tested, dunno. Other units like Hydra, Ultra etc were never really the "main" target of Snipe anyway VS Toss it's better to use EMP in most cases. Obviously I could be completely wrong about everything. We'll see
In current TvZ, Terrans force lurkers to unburrow with siege tanks or liberators, and then punish them for running with Ghosts. With these changes that strategy disappears. Lurkers already move and burrow/unborrow super-fast with talons, and now there's even less consequence for committing, even if the T player has right units at hand.
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Balance is impossible to predict with such a list of changes.
But I really really like the overall gist of most of the ideas - fine tuning will of course be needed.
Broods were always too slow for the new map sizes.
Creep spread was likewise just too powerful at the top level.
Carriers were always BS for every mere mortal in ZvP.
Glad to see some more of Protoss's power put into ground styles with the upgrade changes.
Overall very exciting. Aliev Gaem.
EDIT: Also, THEY FIXED THE BANE MORPH BUG.
Amazing stuff!
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Wow... so Zerg gets good changes/insignificant nerfs... while once again, Terran and Protoss get game changing nerfs and insignificant buffs that mostly aren't helpful
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Okay first things first, whether I personally agree with all of these proposed changes is irrelevant, I am VERY grateful that this game although a legacy game is getting another balance patch.
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Zergs winning 60-70% of premiers for 5 years running and then get this patch... Blizzard is such a joke it's crazy.
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That's alot of QoL improvements. I like it
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On December 09 2022 00:14 JJH777 wrote:
Zergs winning 60-70% of premiers for 5 years running and then get this patch... Blizzard is such a joke it's crazy.
It's a community of pro players that made the suggestions
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Sounds like there are a lot of changes, hard to form an opinion on anything before we see how it plays out.
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France13022 Posts
On December 09 2022 01:02 youaremysin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2022 00:14 JJH777 wrote:
Zergs winning 60-70% of premiers for 5 years running and then get this patch... Blizzard is such a joke it's crazy. It's a community of pro players that made the suggestions
I would bet these pro players are Europeans though :o
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On December 09 2022 01:13 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2022 01:02 youaremysin wrote:On December 09 2022 00:14 JJH777 wrote:
Zergs winning 60-70% of premiers for 5 years running and then get this patch... Blizzard is such a joke it's crazy. It's a community of pro players that made the suggestions I would bet these pro players are Europeans though :o
Harstem was "the face" of the community, according to himself. Then we have Lambo, PiG said they also collect his input.
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I'm just glad Maru won G5L and herO brought wins for protoss before this patch. Cause this sounds like ZvZ finals all over again.
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Pretty worried about these changes, if they all go through.
It seems like a lot of small ideas of "wouldn't it be kinda nice if it was like X instead of Y". But it doesn't seem like there's a cohesive vision behind the patch, and it doesn't seem like the balance is really taken into account.
For example if Overcharge is that much weaker, then what do they gain to compensate? How will they defend rushes in PvP, etc. It's not even a rework, it's just a straight up nerf with nothing to compensate for the weakened defense.
I don't think HTs getting slightly faster movespeed is anywhere enough to make up for the weaker disruptors.
I don't really agree with removing upgrades that give units more energy or more AOE and giving it for free.
Nerfing Auto Turrets from 50 to 75 energy seems so random, is it just because people don't want to lose to troll mass Raven strategies? And what is the reason for changing Ravens to be faster and cost less gas anyway? Now Terran has even less ways to sink gas.
I think the Cyclone change might be cool to make it more well rounded, but it also means it'll be worse at fighting Carriers, BCs, etc. It'll be better against light units for example, but... what light units would it be fighting that this change would help with? Hydralisks? Mutalisks? Marines? Is this just supposed to be a nerf?
It would have been nice to see a buff to mech, but oh well.
I'm surprised BCs aren't addressed, if the patch's goal is to weaken strategies that are frustrating to play against (BCs jumping around a lot, or jumping on a protoss fleet and yamato'ing everything).
I'm just worried it seems like Protoss is overall getting nerfed and I'm not sure what's really there to compensate. Maybe they want players to use Obs + HTs more instead of Disruptors? Will Colosuss be more viable cus you can feedback Vipers while they're trying to abduct or something? Or cus you can pick it up with a warp prism before the abduct connects?
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It is very clear that is the patch is for zerg and only. Protoss will be cucked by Zerg. 4gate blink stalkers are even stronger now. TvZ for terran doesn't exist. You can't make such a balance patch shopify gang, you can't.
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Not sure why all the terrans came to whine that their race got nerfed too much.
In TvZ - they literally made ravager timings weaker and creep spread slower. Most people don't even enter lategame properly, so what is the ghost change gonna do to you? You have a better ghost out of the box, but turbo turtling with ghosts + infinite snipe has been fixed. For mech enjoyers, cyclone is better all around, but weaker vs roach, which can be compensated by tanks. "Better cyclone vs all around everything" means better vs queens and ravagers, which is impactful.
In TvP - you literally have protoss fixed to not be able to defend with 1 omega battery and colossus. ghost is more useful out-of-the-box.
Forgot about the QoL changes:
* Mine drops requiring less micro in TvZ, to not hit eggs.
* Cyclones not locking on eggs anymore in TvZ.
* Thors/tanks not getting stuck out of the factory production, etc.
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EPT
