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On January 24 2023 03:44 [Phantom] wrote:I'm sorry but you're examples are ridiculous. One thing is to have all your queens on your third and lose to hellions on your main that is 3 screens away, the other is to lose because your unit is 1 pixel to the side If a unit is placed in a 1 hex space between two buildings it should either block units from passing or not block them. Not block them 90% of the time except if you put it 1 pixel to the side, especially when: 1. -The game has an isometric view, which means it's basically impossible to see.2.-Even if you activate the rotate camera options (which you need to hold the key for... and are super far away fromeverything) it's not perfectly clear where you need to put the unit? and it's not as if you can do it super precicely, specially taking into account the unit acceleration and movement speed of the units. And again, you won't actually know if it works until you have lings flooding into your natural. 3.-The protoss entrance is the single most important thing in a PvZ. Zerg is so strong in the early that if their units get inside your natural you insta-lose. It's not fair, logical or reasonable that in the weakest spot there is for protoss, you have a unit that will regularly block the entrance, except some times, and that it's literally a couple of pixels that decide that in a place where you can't even see clearly due to the isometric view. You cannot possibly, with a straight face compare that to having your units in a completely different base.
My examples aren't ridiculous because they're the same as your example. The safest way to defend against yolo hellions isn't 8 roaming queens, it's to create a wall and plug it so they can't get in at all, but we don't do that. We take the risk of making mistakes and losing. The same way you do when you choose to plug your wall with an adept.
My point is that the meta encourages fragile play. If you want to min/max your play, it comes with disadvantages. If you're incapable of placing your adept correctly, then you either need to fix the skill issue, or build a stalker instead so you can't make the mistake at all.
You cannot play optimally while making basic mistakes with your units.
And in response to your third point, this comes back to the meta encouraging fragile play. Protoss can and does make 1 unit to defend this kind of ling pressure. 1 single unit can shut it down if played correctly, and it can be played correctly.
Zerg is not "so strong in the early game that if lings get in you lose". Protoss is so strong in the early game that if played correctly, they can defend 2 entire bases with a single adept.
Do you understand this?
Protoss players are min/maxing their play so hard, their entire early game rests on the shoulder of a single unit being placed correctly. It's min/maxed so hard, they're not even using a unit that will fully plug the wall if placed incorrectly.
Protoss players are squeezing every advantage out of the early game - losing sometimes due to bad play - and are asking for the game to let them be even greedier.
It's absurd.
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And I swear to fuck if someone says "protoss has to play that way to compete".
No, they don't. Why don't go ladder for a week and make a stalker instead of an adept. It will not cause you to lose games. Cross my heart, your win rate will probably go up because you're making up for your mechanical inefficiencies with smarter strategic decisions.
The MMR that this kind of corner cutting actually matters is probably outside the reach of anyone in this thread.
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So you really think peak Trap should lose to a pre 2022 Ragnarok ling flood for having an adept 1 hex out of position? Cause it happened to him too. Pros shouldn't instantly lose games with money on the line because their unit is a not even slightly visible 1 hex out of position. That is not even comparable to queens being at the wrong base. One is super obvious and the other is a scenario where literally no one can consistently predict if it will work.
If we showed the top 10 players in the world 20 sample adept walls with half being bad walls and half being good walls and asked them if it was safe against lings how accurate do you think they would be? I guarantee it would be like 50% at best. If the top players in the world can't predict that scenario accurately by looking at a screenshot there's a problem.
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The snipe leash range was nerfed back to 13.5 in the final version. Apparently that extra 0.5 range was just a bridge too far, lul.
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Wow I can't believe they actually decided to just say fuck T/P and put in that patch in this state. What a joke.
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As much as some marbles have certainly been lost in these last few pages, I do think blocking walls is an interesting issue and imo part of a larger problem.
Units in SC2 are just... slippery. With a correct wall, you can sometimes still wriggle a zergling or two through the wall. We've also all seen reapers/adepts get surrounded by lings, only to to vibrate a little and suddenly be free. I suspect this is the same problem with walls sometimes failing.
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On January 23 2023 04:34 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Aren't Lurkers much better vs clumped light units like marines, comparing to heavy bulky units?
They have a bit more damage vs Armored, yes, but they're much more effective vs Marines than they are vs Immortals.
SC2 Wiki Lurkers
ZvP Lurkers are very strong in this match-up: Protoss lack direct counters other than massed immortals.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Let me be the first to congratulate Zerg players for their 7th world championship in a row.
If we get another ZvZ finals we better get the patch reversed and a public apology from the balance council.
We should not accept this insult of a patch.
I've come to understand the delusion of zerg players now, some of which compare a unit being 1 pixel to the right wich is impossible to see, making the unit act in an unintended and unpredicted fashion, to units being in a completely different base, but the other races should not accept this madness.
Developer Comment: Recently Protoss have been heavily relying on Disruptors in ground engagements. With the nerf to Disruptors as well as Battery Overcharge, earlier upgrades should give some compensation for fighting strength on the ground.
this is such a dishonest statement is ridiculous. No, having upgrades 5 seconds early in exchaange for lategame nerfs will only force protoss to all-in. It doesn't in any way "compensate for fighting strenght on the ground" when your opponent also finishes they 2-2 or 3-3 upgrades. Things like changing the research speed might give more power momentarily, but after that brief period has passed there's no buff at all, just the disruptors and carrier nerfs. That doesn't compensate at all for the fighting strenght of the ground army. It's just telling Protoss that going early all-in is the only way they'll win.
On January 24 2023 03:59 InfCereal wrote: And I swear to fuck if someone says "protoss has to play that way to compete". No, they don't. Why don't go ladder for a week and make a stalker instead of an adept. It will not cause you to lose games. Cross my heart, your win rate will probably go up because you're making up for your mechanical inefficiencies with smarter strategic decisions.
It's not as simple as just making a Stalker. They are terrible vs lings. If you make them they might block the entrance, but they are terrible agaisnt link floods/baneling bust etc. You're also using more gas than you want, and you lose the ability to scout with the adept and it shade or do light harass with it.
Furthermore you say you'll get angry if someone says protoss has to cut corners like that and say it's a choice. Maybe it is, but look at pro winrates in pvz, depending on which matches in a best case scnenario protoss isn't significantly ahead or anything, so if they don't make the adept they would be slightly behind.
But that's still ignoring the most important point that you refuse to aknowlegde:
There's no way to clearly see at a glance if the adept will block the lings or not. It appears it will, it should do it as it's in the middle of two gates, and then sometiems it doesn't cause it's 1 mm to the side in a manner that's impossible to see.
That's not intendent or consistent behaviour, and thus it should be fixed.
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Wow they really ignored all the feedback they got and just introduced the Zerg patch a few weeks before IEM Katowice... I'm at a loss for words right now.
If Zerg wins (probably), this will be one of the most controversial tournament wins ever
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As they probably haven t enought rights to modify SC2 drastically, they tweaked nova reducing his area of effect comparing to storm spell (which was exactly the same radius (!) ). Comparing isn t reason.
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What is the zerg specific issue of the patch? Hydras too strong? Disruptor nerf?
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On January 24 2023 05:28 Gescom wrote:
What is the zerg specific issue of the patch? Hydras too strong? Disruptor nerf?
Everything combined.
The Zerg nerfs are very inconsequential and barely make any difference while Terran and Protoss received actual nerfs to key units (Ghost, Disruptor, Carrier) and no meaningful compensation. Then the unneeded buffs to Ultras, Hydras and Broodlords. And all this in a period where Zerg already wins 50% of the tournaments
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In the patch went live today the carrier changes aren't in it. (other than the interceptor priority)
Is it possible that people don't yet know how to adequately use the other buffs (sentry, forge, observer, HT move speed, banshee, viking, lib) to make them meaningful?
The archon change seems as meaningful as the ultralisk buff.
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On January 24 2023 04:36 [Phantom] wrote:Let me be the first to congratulate Zerg players for their 7th world championship in a row. If we get another ZvZ finals we better get the patch reversed and a public apology from the balance council. We should not accept this insult of a patch. I've come to understand the delusion of zerg players now, some of which compare a unit being 1 pixel to the right wich is impossible to see, making the unit act in an unintended and unpredicted fashion, to units being in a completely different base, but the other races should not accept this madness. Show nested quote +Developer Comment: Recently Protoss have been heavily relying on Disruptors in ground engagements. With the nerf to Disruptors as well as Battery Overcharge, earlier upgrades should give some compensation for fighting strength on the ground. this is such a dishonest statement is ridiculous. No, having upgrades 5 seconds early in exchaange for lategame nerfs will only force protoss to all-in. It doesn't in any way "compensate for fighting strenght on the ground" when your opponent also finishes they 2-2 or 3-3 upgrades. Things like changing the research speed might give more power momentarily, but after that brief period has passed there's no buff at all, just the disruptors and carrier nerfs. That doesn't compensate at all for the fighting strenght of the ground army. It's just telling Protoss that going early all-in is the only way they'll win. Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 03:59 InfCereal wrote: And I swear to fuck if someone says "protoss has to play that way to compete". No, they don't. Why don't go ladder for a week and make a stalker instead of an adept. It will not cause you to lose games. Cross my heart, your win rate will probably go up because you're making up for your mechanical inefficiencies with smarter strategic decisions.
It's not as simple as just making a Stalker. They are terrible vs lings. If you make them they might block the entrance, but they are terrible agaisnt link floods/baneling bust etc. You're also using more gas than you want, and you lose the ability to scout with the adept and it shade or do light harass with it. Furthermore you say you'll get angry if someone says protoss has to cut corners like that and say it's a choice. Maybe it is, but look at pro winrates in pvz, depending on which matches in a best case scnenario protoss isn't significantly ahead or anything, so if they don't make the adept they would be slightly behind. But that's still ignoring the most important point that you refuse to aknowlegde: There's no way to clearly see at a glance if the adept will block the lings or not. It appears it will, it should do it as it's in the middle of two gates, and then sometiems it doesn't cause it's 1 mm to the side in a manner that's impossible to see. That's not intendent or consistent behaviour, and thus it should be fixed.
The patch is not the issue why you're 3.4k MMR.
Celebrate that sc2 is getting some support.
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Phantom, can you post your replay please.
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On January 24 2023 06:29 bela.mervado wrote:
Phantom, can you post your replay please.
LOL.
And he's copy-pasting the same tears on Reddit, too.
Lame...
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On January 24 2023 06:35 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 06:29 bela.mervado wrote:
Phantom, can you post your replay please. LOL. And he's copy-pasting the same tears on Reddit, too. Lame...
The amount of terrans tears in this thread is quite entertaining
I guarantee majority of these posters in this thread are gold league, however, they talk and act like they are grandmasters
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Fairly controversial patch being pushed 2 weeks before the biggest tournament of the year, what could go wrong?
Honestly terrible, but sc2 is in a state where we should be happy that there are any patches at all i guess, even if it means that the zerg illuminati can run wild. Oh well.
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I thought that before this patch the state of SC2 was pretty damn fine. Truly it had been years since the game felt as competitive as it felt before this patch.
So no, if this ends up how we have reason to fear it may, I'm not particularly happy about it.
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EPT
