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ZeroByte13
799 Posts
Completely relying on a single unit is a bad design, of course - but there is an obvious reason why late TvZ is so ghost-heavy. What else T can use instead with similar effectiveness? I'd love to see some love for mech to make it at least somewhat viable. | ||
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Darkness2k11
Chile313 Posts
it's always zealots suiciding charging outside of guardian shield, think about it! | ||
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angry_maia
332 Posts
On December 09 2022 08:58 Darkness2k11 wrote: Since we are doing QoL changes, might as well make getting charge increase sentry speed too, it's always zealots suiciding charging outside of guardian shield, think about it! i'm bummed they didn't go with speedy manlots instead of charge. brood war zealot micro is always fun to watch (against zerg) and charge is the least microable thing in the game. | ||
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Moonerz
United States467 Posts
The creep nerfs are pretty insignificant as well so I dont really expect anything to change there. Not going to go overboard until we see it play out but it is a bit tiresome that Zerg seems to always get the benefit of the doubt in terms of patches. Its gotten so bad people forget Zergs were the original whiners (every zerg unit sucks or so I'm told) until Terrans claimed the throne. Feels like for the entire LotV life span Zerg has been in an advantageous spot | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1162 Posts
On December 09 2022 09:44 Moonerz wrote: Zergs were the original whiners (every zerg unit sucks or so I'm told) until Terrans claimed the throne. Feels like for the entire LotV life span Zerg has been in an advantageous spot lol this is spot on. you could always tell when you were matched up against a zerg crybaby because they all seemed to use the edgy purple kerrigan portrait (Level 29 XP rating) I still like this patch because each of the changes are good in principle, even if Z remains overpowered. it's a pretty substantial patch already and I guess buffing terran T3 on top of it all was a bridge too far | ||
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JJH777
United States4420 Posts
On December 09 2022 09:44 Moonerz wrote: Being able to run away from snipe seems pretty dumb off the bat. The Emp change I dont mind, its pretty meh and against Toss I do think the huge emp might have been a bit too much. The creep nerfs are pretty insignificant as well so I dont really expect anything to change there. Not going to go overboard until we see it play out but it is a bit tiresome that Zerg seems to always get the benefit of the doubt in terms of patches. Its gotten so bad people forget Zergs were the original whiners (every zerg unit sucks or so I'm told) until Terrans claimed the throne. Feels like for the entire LotV life span Zerg has been in an advantageous spot Zerg has won a higher percentage of tournaments per year every year since 2019 than Terran won in GomTvT 2011. Zergs whining back then was out of control. I regret sympathizing with them and taking part on occassion now as Zerg really did not deserve to win anything. They've had enough success these past few years that even if they did even worse back then they would have still won the most money life time. It's fucked to think people spend 12 years of their life playing this game at a pro level to be constantly blocked from winning significant money by Blizzards blind Zerg bias. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10381 Posts
On December 09 2022 03:26 syndbg wrote: Not sure why all the terrans came to whine that their race got nerfed too much. In TvZ - they literally made ravager timings weaker and creep spread slower. Most people don't even enter lategame properly, so what is the ghost change gonna do to you? You have a better ghost out of the box, but turbo turtling with ghosts + infinite snipe has been fixed. For mech enjoyers, cyclone is better all around, but weaker vs roach, which can be compensated by tanks. "Better cyclone vs all around everything" means better vs queens and ravagers, which is impactful. In TvP - you literally have protoss fixed to not be able to defend with 1 omega battery and colossus. ghost is more useful out-of-the-box. Forgot about the QoL changes: * Mine drops requiring less micro in TvZ, to not hit eggs. * Cyclones not locking on eggs anymore in TvZ. * Thors/tanks not getting stuck out of the factory production, etc. Didn't notice the thors/tanks not getting stuck, these QOL changes are nice for mech players indeed. I wish they increased Gateway unit collision radius with buildings though, so that zerg players don't slip zerglings through a wall if a zealot/adept is 1 pixel off. I'm surprised they improved all these other things but not the protoss door issue. Also forgot that it means cyclones will do better vs queens and ravagers, yes that's pretty nice. It'll be worse at sniping CC's but it'll be better vs Medivacs, Banshees, Phoenixes, Mutalisks, Vipers, Archons too etc. As a small thing, Disruptors will be less effective vs Cyclones when playing Mech, so maybe we can bring some of that Maru vs Classic mech back. Better ghost out of box will also be nice for mech in TvP. Ghost tech was already made more accessible over the years (cheaper and faster to get effective ghosts early on). Before it would be worth getting ~3 ghosts in the early-mid game to EMP, but a bit expensive to get the EMP upgrade right away. So there's a slight buff at this early time for mech players. I suppose Vipers needing even a short delay before Abducting means that even if they get the Abduct off, you have more of a chance to snipe them with Ghosts/Vikings/Stalkers/Skytoss/HTs/anything. Maybe if Ravens are cheaper, and with the Abduct delay, it might even be viable to choose Ravens as a light counter to Vipers instead of Ghosts? If the Viper abducts you and you're not trying to engage, they'll probably still get it off, but if you anticipate the Vipers engaging and have your Ravens ready, you could disable them as they're flying up to your army. On December 09 2022 05:35 Vindicare605 wrote: On the other hand, having Terran's entire late game be based around how powerful the Ghost is is bad design and we all know that. So if this patch in fact does do what you guys are rightfully afraid that it will, then it's going to force Blizzard's hand and force them to buff Terran late game in some other way that doesn't involve putting everything on one particular unit. I'm really annoyed with the fact that Zerg is getting preferential treatment, AGAIN, I've made that abundantly clear. But I can at least see some promise in how the Devs are approaching this right now. they are nerfing Creep, and making Ravens cheaper to mass. Those are both good things for Terran. I believe the thinking is that if Terran has an improved midgame that it will make it much more difficult for Zerg to get comfortably to the late game and that has a big impact in how late game TvZ plays out. They're teetering around the edges adjusting some of the lesser used tech that Terrans never get like Banshee speed and Raven Corvid Reactor. They're trying to make it easier for Terran to reach their late game power level and harder for Zerg to. They've also nerfed the Viper a little bit so they're aware that IT is an oppressive late game spell caster too but they're being careful with it to start with because of how important it is in PvZ as well. They're targetting the right things, just not in equal measure right now because they're waiting to see how the Creep and Ultralisk changes play out first. I just hope that if the meta switches to TvZ being heavily Zerg favored immediately that they don't take too long in adjusting perhaps increasing the range at which Zerg units have to be before Snipe is cancelled or doing some other buffs like my suggested Viking speed buff as well. You have some good points, but I feel like they need to make the changes with a full picture of what they want, not buff/nerf some things and then followup and figure out what to do to make it balanced/rounded. At least, I don't think Protoss is getting enough to compensate for their weaker Overcharge and Disruptors. One thing I don't like is that a straight up late game fight in PvZ or PvT will be weaker. HTs are faster but it doesn't make them any stronger in a fight. Disruptors are weaker too. Slightly faster forge upgrades will only make gateway units stronger for an additional ~10 seconds than before, it doesn't make them actually any stronger in the lategame. Carriers are weaker. By the way, why no Mothership buff? Maybe BLs being more mobile and less strong in a straight up fight will be enough to nerf super lategame zerg armies though. EMP is smaller but it'll still be easy to EMP your whole army. I also don't get how PvT is supposed to defend all these already very strong Terran pushes we see in GSL. Sure, it might feel frustrating to see a Protoss with a few gateway units and 1 colossus defending a marine tank push with Overcharge. However, we're simply nerfing it - so are Protoss just going to die to those pushes now? Also will Protoss be able to still go with more economic openings, or will players trying to expand just die to the old 1 base rushes again? This also nerfs Disruptor drop openers in PvZ, which I feel was a cool strategy and style to watch... | ||
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buzz_bender
446 Posts
If these patches go through, I'm expecting all Zerg winners next year or Terran revert to super aggressive 2-base pushes more and more, esp if we also keep getting Zerg favoured maps. | ||
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tigera6
3513 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1984 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17744 Posts
On December 09 2022 08:28 ZeroByte13 wrote: I'd agree with the Ghost nerf if they buffed another late game option for Terrans. Completely relying on a single unit is a bad design, of course - but there is an obvious reason why late TvZ is so ghost-heavy. What else T can use instead with similar effectiveness? I'd love to see some love for mech to make it at least somewhat viable. what would you buff though? Thors and BCs are already strong, tanks and widow mines are midgame, maybe liberators could siege/unsiege a little faster to dodge biles? maybe yamato could shoot faster? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
On December 09 2022 21:36 Die4Ever wrote: what would you buff though? Thors and BCs are already strong, tanks and widow mines are midgame, maybe liberators could siege/unsiege a little faster to dodge biles? maybe yamato could shoot faster? Thors are only good against 1 type of unit and BCs are far from good, they are just a glorified harassment unit. I agree that those units shouldn't be buffed though as they are boring as fuck. I'd rather nerf the lategame units from the other races, Carrier and BL changes are already good, let's see if it's enough | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On December 09 2022 22:02 Charoisaur wrote: Thors are only good against 1 type of unit and BCs are far from good, they are just a glorified harassment unit. I agree that those units shouldn't be buffed though as they are boring as fuck. I'd rather nerf the lategame units from the other races, Carrier and BL changes are already good, let's see if it's enough Agreed (although not about thors, they seem pretty good against a fair bit of Zerg). I'm overall keen to see this play out, but I wouldn't have been sad if they nerfed the BL a bit in some other way too - definitely don't want BL infestor viper as the go-to way to play ZvT >.< | ||
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ZeroByte13
799 Posts
And ground mech is not that viable either. If we're talking about pro-level, of course. With current version of super-fast lurkers you need ghosts, it's the only answer Terran has now really. And with the new patch lurkers will be able to run away from snipe more often than before. And Thors lose to lurkers badly. So what terrans are supposed to use now to compensate this nerf in late game? I guess it will be era of "kill zerg in first 8 minutes or lose" TvZ meta. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16125 Posts
On December 09 2022 22:36 ZeroByte13 wrote: BCs are so strong that we see them in what percentage of late games? 1%? Maybe 0.1%? And ground mech is not that viable either. If we're talking about pro-level, of course. With current version of super-fast lurkers you need ghosts, it's the only answer Terran has now really. And with the new patch lurkers will be able to run away more often than before. And Thors lose to lurkers badly. Lurkers if they are already burrowed will never be able to unburrow and move away in time to avoid being sniped. If they actually can then this nerf is completely over the top and it renders Snipe unusable, but that's obviously not going to be the case. Sniping Lurkers that are already moving away from you is a different story. They're not a threat if they are moving away from you since they can only attack when they are stationary. | ||
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ZeroByte13
799 Posts
A lot of value ghosts give comes from them sniping units that try to run away, right? I see this happen many times in every TvZ with ghosts. You've seen it many-many times too, haven't you? That's a big part of their value - to be able to punish zerg for risky engagements, sniping retreating units, like a "tax" on a bad engagement. Now Zerg will be able to attack more often and know that more of their units will survive if attack fails. If attack is successful, Zerg wins. If it's not, Zerg doesn't lose as many units as it would be before, so there're more units to execute another attack with in a minute. Ghosts are so good in right hands exactly because they're so cost-effective and can punish Zerg. So I would guess that ghosts will be quite a bit less useful now. And it still wasn't nearly enough even in Maru's hands who is by far the best ghost player. Terrans have won 1 premier/major tournament in 2022, it was Maru's G5L. Zergs have won 6 premier/major tournaments in 2022 so far. Which leaves us with a question - if ghosts are so overpowered, how come it's 1-6, and most Maru (best ghost player) losses/eliminations were vs Zerg btw? | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
bottom line is, this is a dead game with really shallow playerbase and little to no new players inflow. most good protoss are already retirded or in the army. same with terran. you shouldn't act suprised that one race can dominate the other if the game is like that. | ||
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warnull
United States280 Posts
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Creager
Germany1960 Posts
On December 09 2022 23:12 warnull wrote: Heromarine's balance complaints are more of a performance art. Viewers expect and enjoy it. I wouldn't take them seriously. While that might be the case and of course he is Terran-biased, like all pros are towards their race, that does not automatically nullify any feedback he's giving. | ||
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warnull
United States280 Posts
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