EPTBalance Patch 5.0.11 PTR Patch Notes - Page 5
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Athenau
569 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1583 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1583 Posts
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JJH777
United States4400 Posts
On December 09 2022 03:26 syndbg wrote: Not sure why all the terrans came to whine that their race got nerfed too much. In TvZ - they literally made ravager timings weaker and creep spread slower. Most people don't even enter lategame properly, so what is the ghost change gonna do to you? You have a better ghost out of the box, but turbo turtling with ghosts + infinite snipe has been fixed. For mech enjoyers, cyclone is better all around, but weaker vs roach, which can be compensated by tanks. "Better cyclone vs all around everything" means better vs queens and ravagers, which is impactful. In TvP - you literally have protoss fixed to not be able to defend with 1 omega battery and colossus. ghost is more useful out-of-the-box. Forgot about the QoL changes: * Mine drops requiring less micro in TvZ, to not hit eggs. * Cyclones not locking on eggs anymore in TvZ. * Thors/tanks not getting stuck out of the factory production, etc. I don't care about the nerfs for my play. I care about them because Maru and every other terran is never going to beat Serral/Reynor/Dark in an even lategame again if these changes go through as written. Which will suck to any viewer who doesn't just want Serral to win everything. TvZ is going to revert back to 2 or 3 base all in or die trying every single game. You cannot nerf ghosts without buffing basically all of Terran T3 if you want them to have a chance late game. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On December 09 2022 03:43 JJH777 wrote: I don't care about the nerfs for my play. I care about them because Maru and every other terran is never going to beat Serral/Reynor/Dark in an even lategame again if these changes go through as written. Which will suck to any viewer who doesn't just want Serral to win everything. TvZ is going to revert back to 2 or 3 base all in or die trying every single game. You cannot nerf ghosts without buffing basically all of Terran T3 if you want them to have a chance late game. On the other hand, having Terran's entire late game be based around how powerful the Ghost is is bad design and we all know that. So if this patch in fact does do what you guys are rightfully afraid that it will, then it's going to force Blizzard's hand and force them to buff Terran late game in some other way that doesn't involve putting everything on one particular unit. I'm really annoyed with the fact that Zerg is getting preferential treatment, AGAIN, I've made that abundantly clear. But I can at least see some promise in how the Devs are approaching this right now. they are nerfing Creep, and making Ravens cheaper to mass. Those are both good things for Terran. I believe the thinking is that if Terran has an improved midgame that it will make it much more difficult for Zerg to get comfortably to the late game and that has a big impact in how late game TvZ plays out. They're teetering around the edges adjusting some of the lesser used tech that Terrans never get like Banshee speed and Raven Corvid Reactor. They're trying to make it easier for Terran to reach their late game power level and harder for Zerg to. They've also nerfed the Viper a little bit so they're aware that IT is an oppressive late game spell caster too but they're being careful with it to start with because of how important it is in PvZ as well. They're targetting the right things, just not in equal measure right now because they're waiting to see how the Creep and Ultralisk changes play out first. I just hope that if the meta switches to TvZ being heavily Zerg favored immediately that they don't take too long in adjusting perhaps increasing the range at which Zerg units have to be before Snipe is cancelled or doing some other buffs like my suggested Viking speed buff as well. | ||
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bulldozer06701
123 Posts
On December 09 2022 03:32 Athenau wrote: Heromarine's take on this patch is amusing at least (spoiler, he doesn't like it). Here it is, if anyone else wants to hear: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1673663415?t=00h22m57s I think he's making a lot of valid points | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15916 Posts
On December 09 2022 06:03 bulldozer06701 wrote: Here it is, if anyone else wants to hear: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1673663415?t=00h22m57s I think he's making a lot of valid points yeah he's mainly unhappy with the Hydra and Ultra buffs because according to him those are units Zergs love to complain about them being weak but still build them all the time which means that they are in no need of a buff and it's just Zerg propaganda. He doesn't mind the other changes though. | ||
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THERIDDLER
Canada116 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On December 09 2022 06:07 Charoisaur wrote: yeah he's mainly unhappy with the Hydra and Ultra buffs because according to him those are units Zergs love to complain about them being weak but still build them all the time which means that they are in no need of a buff and it's just Zerg propaganda. He doesn't mind the other changes though. The Hydralisk isn't being buffed for Terran it's being buffed because Blizz is trying to make Skytoss less oppressive. The Hydralisk is one of Zerg's only actual anti air units so it's not a surprise they are adjusting them for this purpose if they are also nerfing Vipers. The impact it's going to have on TvZ is just a side result. It still matters but that needs to be understood. Blizz wasn't thinking about what the Hydralisk buff was going to do to TvZ, they were focusing on PvZ only with that one. | ||
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angry_maia
311 Posts
Seems like name of the game is gonna be "curtail the swarm before you get overrun and die." On the other hand, I think late game pvt might be alright -- even with EMP nerf i think that psi storm is still not as devastating as 1.5 radius disruptors. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On December 09 2022 06:33 angry_maia wrote: Protoss is also highly incentivized to avoid late game against zerg now right? Not just through the disruptor/carrier nerfs but also through the forge buffs? Seems like name of the game is gonna be "curtail the swarm before you get overrun and die." On the other hand, I think late game pvt might be alright -- even with EMP nerf i think that psi storm is still not as devastating as 1.5 radius disruptors. Don't forget about the Shield Overcharge nerf. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12149 Posts
On December 09 2022 06:17 THERIDDLER wrote: Very interesting to note that harstem confirmed in his video that he and scarlett are part of the team that made the changes (most likely lambo too), and heromarine confirmed he is not. Interesting roster that's perferctly reflected in the balance changes. Also because Harstem is imo a little biased against protoss. Not that he hates the race of course, but when he plays he focuses on his mistakes a lot, and I think it leads him to dismiss balance concerns more than he should (of course he could do better, but the people who he plays could do better as well, and they are often less punished for their mistakes). I remember that he went in the balance thread to ridicule the notion that protoss was imbalanced right in the middle of the period where the game was quite literally unwatchable for a protoss fan. | ||
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JJH777
United States4400 Posts
On December 09 2022 06:07 Charoisaur wrote: yeah he's mainly unhappy with the Hydra and Ultra buffs because according to him those are units Zergs love to complain about them being weak but still build them all the time which means that they are in no need of a buff and it's just Zerg propaganda. He doesn't mind the other changes though. Heromarine isn't much of a ghost player but still surprising he wouldn't be mad about that. I think people are downplaying that change. It reads as a small one but if you really think about it in the context of a 30 minute lategame TvZ the amount of value that is gained from snipes while Zerg is retreating is insane and will be almost completely gone now. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3099 Posts
The disruptor nerf combined with ghost EMP mid-game buff has me a little worried, as the disruptor has become THE essential splash damage option at pro levels vT and a mid-game buff to EMP makes it unlikely that slightly faster HTs will make up the difference. Especially with a weakened shield battery overcharge, it seems like pushes with ghosts will be extremely strong. I appreciate, though, that Blizzard is essentially giving Hero's gatewayman style a nice straightforward buff with the upgrade changes. Overall, anything that makes Protoss less totally reliant on a few splash units and tankier overall will be good for the enjoyability of the game. | ||
Poopi
France12781 Posts
On December 09 2022 06:07 Charoisaur wrote: yeah he's mainly unhappy with the Hydra and Ultra buffs because according to him those are units Zergs love to complain about them being weak but still build them all the time which means that they are in no need of a buff and it's just Zerg propaganda. He doesn't mind the other changes though. HeroMarine is too blunt and honest while making a lot of valid points so some pros don’t seem to like him, but it allows us to get some real insight although he might be wrong about some details. Ghost needs a nerf because it is too versatile but there is a lot of tweaking necessary to make things work imo. All in all, having a giant ass patch like this is a huge step forward: it probably means Blizzard / the community don’t just wanna let Stormgate be the new RTS king. I am extremely happy with the direction StarCraft 2 is going, still alive and fighting, bit by bit (  ). | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On December 09 2022 06:55 Captain Peabody wrote: These seem like perfectly reasonable changes across the board. Of course, it's impossible to know how this will all add up, but I'd be surprised if anything is super broken. The disruptor nerf combined with ghost EMP mid-game buff has me a little worried, as the disruptor has become THE essential splash damage option at pro levels vT and a mid-game buff to EMP makes it unlikely that slightly faster HTs will make up the difference. Especially with a weakened shield battery overcharge, it seems like pushes with ghosts will be extremely strong. I appreciate, though, that Blizzard is essentially giving Hero's gatewayman style a nice straightforward buff with the upgrade changes. Overall, anything that makes Protoss less totally reliant on a few splash units and tankier overall will be good for the enjoyability of the game. Ghosts didn't get buffed in the midgame. Terrans start researching Enhanced Shockwaves as soon as the Ghost Academy is built. Enhanced Shockwaves gave Ghosts a 2.0 EMP radius. The patch is nerfing that to 1.75. It's a nerf to Ghosts. You don't have to spend that extra 100 gas anymore, but that's all. Ask any Terran they'd happily spend 100 gas for an extra 0.25 radius on the spell. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On December 09 2022 06:58 Poopi wrote: HeroMarine is too blunt and honest while making a lot of valid points so some pros don’t seem to like him, but it allows us to get some real insight although he might be wrong about some details. Ghost needs a nerf because it is too versatile but there is a lot of tweaking necessary to make things work imo. All in all, having a giant ass patch like this is a huge step forward: it probably means Blizzard / the community don’t just wanna let Stormgate be the new RTS king. I am extremely happy with the direction StarCraft 2 is going, still alive and fighting, bit by bit ( ).The fact that even he thought it was ridiculous to nerf Protoss is telling. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1583 Posts
On December 09 2022 06:58 Poopi wrote: HeroMarine is too blunt and honest while making a lot of valid points so some pros don’t seem to like him, but it allows us to get some real insight although he might be wrong about some details. Ghost needs a nerf because it is too versatile but there is a lot of tweaking necessary to make things work imo. All in all, having a giant ass patch like this is a huge step forward: it probably means Blizzard / the community don’t just wanna let Stormgate be the new RTS king. I am extremely happy with the direction StarCraft 2 is going, still alive and fighting, bit by bit ( ).eh, i dont think it means they dont want to let stormgate be the king, I think most people are ready to switch over, I haven't heard much sentiment otherwise. This is just a quality of life patch for the year we have left. If you are running a competitive circuit things should still be as balanced as they can be. | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
On December 09 2022 05:35 Vindicare605 wrote: On the other hand, having Terran's entire late game be based around how powerful the Ghost is is bad design and we all know that. So if this patch in fact does do what you guys are rightfully afraid that it will, then it's going to force Blizzard's hand and force them to buff Terran late game in some other way that doesn't involve putting everything on one particular unit. I'm really annoyed with the fact that Zerg is getting preferential treatment, AGAIN, I've made that abundantly clear. But I can at least see some promise in how the Devs are approaching this right now. they are nerfing Creep, and making Ravens cheaper to mass. Those are both good things for Terran. I believe the thinking is that if Terran has an improved midgame that it will make it much more difficult for Zerg to get comfortably to the late game and that has a big impact in how late game TvZ plays out. They're teetering around the edges adjusting some of the lesser used tech that Terrans never get like Banshee speed and Raven Corvid Reactor. They're trying to make it easier for Terran to reach their late game power level and harder for Zerg to. They've also nerfed the Viper a little bit so they're aware that IT is an oppressive late game spell caster too but they're being careful with it to start with because of how important it is in PvZ as well. They're targetting the right things, just not in equal measure right now because they're waiting to see how the Creep and Ultralisk changes play out first. I just hope that if the meta switches to TvZ being heavily Zerg favored immediately that they don't take too long in adjusting perhaps increasing the range at which Zerg units have to be before Snipe is cancelled or doing some other buffs like my suggested Viking speed buff as well. This presumes that the process is driven by Blizzard rather than the community "balance council", and that the latter is acting in good faith. The creep nerf is a perfect example, something that seems significant until you realize that for it to matter at all players have to be regularly hitting tumors on cooldown. After the last four years of Zerg dominance I'm tired of extending the benefit of the doubt--this is a patch that buffs Zerg, the Zerg members of the balance council know it, and they're going to push it through anyway regardless of the damage it does to the competitive integrity of the game. And if everything goes to shit, look forward to at least six months of "it's ok guys just let the meta settle!" from the usual suspects. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On December 09 2022 07:55 Athenau wrote: After the last four years of Zerg dominance I'm tired of extending the benefit of the doubt--this is a patch that buffs Zerg, the Zerg members of the balance council know that's the case, and they're going to push it through anyway regardless of the damage it does to the competitive integrity of the game. And if everything goes to shit, look forward to at least six months of "it's ok guys just let the meta settle!" from the usual suspects. On the other hand, if you look at eg. Aligulac, both PvZ and TvZ have been over 50% the entire year, making Z easily the weakest race among normal people, and the ladder's Protoss-skewed population confims the issue in good part. It's the sort of issue in FPSes where sniper rifles are garbage in the hands of bad players, not much of an issue for competent people who aren't cracked, but when you give one to a pro, in many games the sniper just runs the match because it gives such insane reward for good mechanics. Zerg seems UP for normal people but give it to Serral, Korean pros or Reynor and weep. So changes are warranted in both directions, the question is, are the changes going in that direction? Secondly, there's gameflow/design issues more independent of balance, like Z tech taking years to get online so they don't really have many interesting earlygame things to do and spend years on hatch tech while T and especially P have the whole gamut of options open - tech pushes, drop harassment, mass production based pushes, heavy eco approaches, outright cheese with proxies and cannons. The Zerg can only dream of that sort of variety, partly because everything interesting is Lair-gated and Lair takes years and doesn't really enable interesting things itself, it just lets you make other things that let you make interesting things. In that light, something like the Ravager nerf is just silly. | ||
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