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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 04 2022 06:54 Freeborn wrote:
Ban the Americans for Aggression in Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq (and casual bombing of african countries).
Then ban the Saudis for the war in Yemen. Don't forget the israelis for constantly fucking up palistine and bombing Syria at will.
After that... you can ban the russians.
Just don't be hypocritical.
Didn't Saudis just bought the SC2 e-sport?  I mean it's pretty pathetic to argue to ban Russians when they drop bombs in Yemen and every looks away. But the hypocricy is strong with the west, so w/e i guess
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On March 04 2022 07:17 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2022 06:54 Freeborn wrote:
Ban the Americans for Aggression in Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq (and casual bombing of african countries).
Then ban the Saudis for the war in Yemen. Don't forget the israelis for constantly fucking up palistine and bombing Syria at will.
After that... you can ban the russians.
Just don't be hypocritical. Didn't Saudis just bought the SC2 e-sport? I mean it's pretty pathetic to argue to ban Russians when they drop bombs in Yemen and every looks away. But the hypocricy is strong with the west, so w/e i guess
This right here highlights the hypocrisy like you said. The Saudis just bought ESL right. Just look at all the atrocious things they've done. This fund actually has connections to the people with power in Saudi Arabia not just the average person.
Ban the Russian players though, they're the problem.
The people saying it will get the people to be mad at Putin and help the cause are dead wrong, people will start to agree with Putin being an average Russian being hit by sanctions from the west for things they have nothing to do with.
Its disgusting to see the hypocrisy, xenophobia, and bigotry in this thread.
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Canada8989 Posts
On March 04 2022 06:54 Freeborn wrote:
Ban the Americans for Aggression in Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq (and casual bombing of african countries).
Then ban the Saudis for the war in Yemen. Don't forget the israelis for constantly fucking up palistine and bombing Syria at will.
After that... you can ban the russians.
Just don't be hypocritical.
The hypocritical argument is a good one to reflect upon the injustice of the world and the US and their allies abilities to act terribly without to much consequence, but somewhat missing the point about if esport companies should enact a ban on Russia. The discussion is not, "Should esport organizations enact moral judgements about States actions and ban players in retaliation", but "Should esport organizations join an already active global movement of sanction and isolation against Russia enacted as a mean to stop the invasion of Ukraine and/or dissuade further military venture."
Obviously the two questions crosses but they are not the same. Esport organization are not autonomous actors on the global stage and it's very different to chose to act in isolation upon a moral ideal and chose to act (or not to act) when a window of opportunity appear, especially when States and international organization that should in theory lead global diplomacy and internationals actions put their back behind it.
There has been tries to enact similar response against both the US for invading Iraq and against Israel, the fact that they didn't get any traction (well the Israel one got a little bit) is probably not fair and hypocritical in the sense that it highlight that the US super power status made them essentially impervious to such attempt, but it doesn't evacuate the initial point. Ukrainian people will not get killed in higher or smaller number because of it (well maybe in the long run of history and geopolitics but that's another question).
I don't think many people would argue against the South African expulsion from world wide sports and the Olympics during the Apartheid regime, which does not mean that equally reprehensible actions have not been perpetrated by other country during the same period. Probably wasn't "fair" to the white South-Africans, didn't make it wrong.
I'm not even necessarily sure I'm on board with sanction and ban, but whats-a-bout-ism doesn't take us very far by itself.
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On March 03 2022 18:00 TheCheapSkate wrote:
Was USA banned from sports when they invaded Iraq and killed 1+ million innocent civilians, including women and children? No? Then Russia also shouldn't be. Either be consistent and ban all countries for their atrocities or keep politics out of sports.
These people have insane levels of cognitive dissonance. Don't bother.
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I think everyone getting all excited over the opportunity to virtue signal by banning 5 people from competing in Starcraft tournaments is equal parts hilarious and nauseating. Consider your life priorities.
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On March 03 2022 19:17 dbRic1203 wrote:
Imo the fastest way out of this war is by removing Putin from power by the people of russia.
While I pitty every russian individual, who is hit by sanctions way harder than Putin himselve, I welcome every single one of them.
If that also includes russian athelts from various sports (and e-sport) as well, I m fine with that.
Russia needs to remove Putin from power. When the West is comunicating, that everything is going back to normal, as soon as Putin sits behind bars, there are no sanctions, that are to hard.
Ban all russian goods (including gas) and all russian participation. Make them hurt for what Putin has done to the European peace.
This war is Putins war and he alone is to be blamed for it, but the russian people are those who can end it.
The Russian people have no more power to topple Putin's government than the Chinese do to overthrow the CCP, or the American right did to stop Biden from becoming president. This isn't 1658. Modern weaponry, technology, surveillance and other forms of control allow a small group of people to assert huge influence and wield absolute power over huge populations these days. You are more likely to get nuclear war than you are to get Putin to stand down due to sanctions and domestic protest (which is part of why all of this is so dangerous and stupid). Ukraine isn't even completely innocent in all this. Russia had been telling NATO to stop pushing east since 2004. If Ukraine had allied with the West, Russia would have had enemy bases going up in East Ukraine virtually a stone's throw from Moscow. You think the United States would allow Mexico or Canada to pull out of all treaties and alliances with them and have the Chinese or Russians set up military bases and nukes within miles of the border? Of course not. The US was willing to go to nuclear war when the Soviet Union wanted to install long range missiles in Cuba during the Cold War.
Realistically, this war ends when Ukraine and Russia sign a cease fire after concessions are made.
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On March 04 2022 09:11 honorablemacroterran wrote:
I think everyone getting all excited over the opportunity to virtue signal by banning 5 people from competing in Starcraft tournaments is equal parts hilarious and nauseating. Consider your life priorities.
On March 04 2022 05:21 Hunta15 wrote:
The pro SC2 Russian scene is literally like 5 players. Those of you who advocate that these players should be banned because they should be out resisting the Russian government instead and risk their lives are flat out delusional.
Banning those players would not do anything.
Yeah all of this. ESPECIALLY in the context of Starcraft. I don't think Russian Starcraft pros are anywhere near adjacent to the Putin administration or the imperialists.
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I'd be shocked if there were any Russians who are technologically savvy and can speak some English who are unaware of what is happening, and I'd be even more shocked if they were in support of it. The people we (and by that I don't literally mean us the Starcraft community) need to reach are likely the older generations who are only able to consume the local government run media outlets available to them. I don't see how banning Russian players helps anything so I don't support that. I think at this stage ESL are being fair enough by not allowing them to represent their country.
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No idea. I can see both arguments being valid.
A compromise I see in other areas is keeping people in if they condemn the war, but that is forcing people to state an opinion which might have them imprisoned.
I know too little of the situation in Russia to have an opinion on which measures could actually make Putin chance his mind. My current theory is that he only cares about not being humiliated on the battlefield and losing face as a strongman. When these occur, he will end the war.
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USA invaded Cuba on 1961.
USA invaded and bombed Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia from 1955 to 1975.
USA invaded Dominican Republic on 1964.
USA invaded Grenada on 1983.
USA bombed Libya on 1986 and 2015-2019.
USA shoot down an Iranian civil in 1988 inside Iranian territory.
USA invaded Panama on 1989.
USA-led NATO bombed Yugoslavia on 1999.
USA invaded Iraq on 2003.
USA-backed Israel invaded and occupied neighboring countries' territory from 1948 to present.
From its independence to present, USA was at war most of time. Should they get banned at top priority?
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Pretty insane that people are actually trying to justify punishing innocents for government affairs. No one is banning Chinese players for their government's treatment of their own people. Why should Russian players not be able to play? Neither Chinese players nor Russian players have any control over what their authoritarian governments do.
Playing under a nationless / unaffiliated flag is so much better than not allowing them to play at all. The Russian economy is already in the trash, so pro players may rely on winnings now more than ever.
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I'd say no. It is good to make the people of Russia aware that the international community unanimously condemns the war. And it would be good if things like this could lead to people putting pressure on the regime.
But it's also important to not alienate the Russian people too much. We must show them that we are concerned about the war, but that we are not acting on some irrational russophobia. We want them to want to be a part of the international community again.
The second thing is that Insulating the population from the outside world is what many dictators want. It is so much easier to sell conspiracy theories about nazis and fascists and about how threatening the west is to a population that has no contact with the outside world.
We must rather signal to the Russian population that all the bad shit that is happening to them now is because of Putin and his war.
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Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On March 04 2022 09:11 honorablemacroterran wrote:
I think everyone getting all excited over the opportunity to virtue signal by banning 5 people from competing in Starcraft tournaments is equal parts hilarious and nauseating. Consider your life priorities.
Virtue signalling is a stupid term, much overused
Like it or not Russia is subject to all sorts of general sanctions, and other sporting boycotts now, people are discussing how that might affect this area.
In the auld life priorities how does playing video games for money stack up against your neighbourhood being shelled?
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Btw guys just so we're clear the reason why it shouldn't happen is because it's a silly sanction, not because we didn't do it for Americans or whatever. If you're making the argument that the issue is the double standard, then the correct action is to ban Russians now and to then ban Americans as well the next time the US does a war. This is not where you want to end up.
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This conversation can (and arguably should) get very philosophical, but at base there are only a few real options here. It seems very unfair (and pointless) to ban all Russian players from a small-scale individual sport like Starcraft. Some kind of ban on Russian esports organizations seems possible, esp since they're likely to have ties to Russian business interests and don't have that much of a presence in EU SC iirc.
I guess maybe the most straightforward option would be to just not let Russia compete in any upcoming Nation Wars? To keep with the basic global standard of banning symbolic participation.
I would generally favor as light a regime as possible, but I do think it's important for decision-makers to come to a consensus on this so you don't end up with a situation where ordinary people and particular organizers decide to take "punishment" into their own hands.
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Yes. The point is that even if people are innocent and not on the ground killing Ukranians, they suffer the consequences of their government. The sanctions and measures in place aren't affecting Putin or the ruling class, they're meant to pressure the general population to reject the government's war, and it's already working.
I feel bad that many of the people didn't want this, but it's not like life just goes on for regular Russians while Ukranians are literally being blown up in their homes.
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So many people have already written the stuff I think are essential.
International sports have always been political, be it from an economic or a patriotic stand point.
- There is a lot of money in sports
- Having sports competitions instead of violence (read wars) is the historical context, and it still stays true (American football was explicitly designed to have men "play war" instead of doing actual violence).
There is a big movement of sanctions because of an active war. Should the SC2 scene act?
Pro sanctions: any increasing pressure on both the regime and the population will empower all sanctions.
Anti sanctions: the Russian SC2 scene is super small and the effect will be negligible.
Arguments in the line of "why don't sanction X and Y, why just Russia?" is another discussion, It is not this discussion.
That discussion would be more about gathering support from different organisations to make a big communal effort in the long term.
The communal effort for sanctions against Russia is already here. Should we join or not?
My personal opinion is to remove things like flags should be enough of a statement from the SC2 scene. The individual cyberathletes can compete without representing Russia. Ban the nation, not the players. Our scene is far too small in Russia for it to matter.
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On March 05 2022 04:52 Drfilip wrote:
So many people have already written the stuff I think are essential.
International sports have always been political, be it from an economic or a patriotic stand point.
- There is a lot of money in sports
- Having sports competitions instead of violence (read wars) is the historical context, and it still stays true (American football was explicitly designed to have men "play war" instead of doing actual violence).
There is a big movement of sanctions because of an active war. Should the SC2 scene act?
Pro sanctions: any increasing pressure on both the regime and the population will empower all sanctions.
Anti sanctions: the Russian SC2 scene is super small and the effect will be negligible.
Arguments in the line of "why don't sanction X and Y, why just Russia?" is another discussion, It is not this discussion.
That discussion would be more about gathering support from different organisations to make a big communal effort in the long term.
The communal effort for sanctions against Russia is already here. Should we join or not?
My personal opinion is to remove things like flags should be enough of a statement from the SC2 scene. The individual cyberathletes can compete without representing Russia. Ban the nation, not the players. Our scene is far too small in Russia for it to matter.
Your opinion is your opinion and that's fine. I'm just not sure why this was ever an option or suggested. It's been a laughingstock at the Olympic level because everybody knows what the 'ROC' means and it hasn't changed anything with those sports or the rampant cheating by those athletes. Case in point:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/10/sports/olympics/kamila-valieva-trimetazidine.html
I don't think anyone can rightfully say that it's fair Russian gamers, but again, that's the point.
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EPT
