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aringadingding
480 Posts
I actualy think the russain players would understand if there was a ban. It would actually be insane if they didnt. At least as long as russia is advancing and killing more and more people and destroying the lifes of completely innocent people. But if there is no ban, it is most likely not an issue since the platform for sc2 is quite small. And i HOPE that the players doesnt support Putin (even though many russians are) | ||
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
Nobody: Hey, who wants to shit all over some powerless people who barely make any money to send a message to Pootin? Half this thread: SIGN ME UP FAM Meanwhile the same people were acting so upset over the Chinese players maybe not being able to get visas for Katowice. | ||
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aringadingding
480 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On March 05 2022 04:21 renaissanceMAN wrote: Yes. The point is that even if people are innocent and not on the ground killing Ukranians, they suffer the consequences of their government. The sanctions and measures in place aren't affecting Putin or the ruling class, they're meant to pressure the general population to reject the government's war, and it's already working. I feel bad that many of the people didn't want this, but it's not like life just goes on for regular Russians while Ukranians are literally being blown up in their homes. Indeed, conversely us in the West are too insulated from what our nation’s do. Aside from benefitting from a certain quality of living, or suffering in that regard depending where we live. Unfortunately sanctions aren’t exactly applied equitably, do we, or the US go into Iraq, much less stay there for that length of time with a populace directly affected by those decisions? If the US especially didn’t have Israel’s back on exhibiting a modicum of restraint and it was hit with meaningful sanction, do those voices wanting a more humane approach to Palestine get louder or more plentiful? Im under no illusions that it’s a foolproof strat, or would work every time. Collectively tying a populace to the actions of their leaders tethers them to the consequences of actions done in their name. Just because it wasn’t done to Americans, or us Brits doesn’t mean I think should be off the table for Russians. It should have happened to us too but, hey it didn’t. | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On March 05 2022 06:05 WombaT wrote: Indeed, conversely us in the West are too insulated from what our nation’s do. Aside from benefitting from a certain quality of living, or suffering in that regard depending where we live. Unfortunately sanctions aren’t exactly applied equitably, do we, or the US go into Iraq, much less stay there for that length of time with a populace directly affected by those decisions? If the US especially didn’t have Israel’s back on exhibiting a modicum of restraint and it was hit with meaningful sanction, do those voices wanting a more humane approach to Palestine get louder or more plentiful? Im under no illusions that it’s a foolproof strat, or would work every time. Collectively tying a populace to the actions of their leaders tethers them to the consequences of actions done in their name. Just because it wasn’t done to Americans, or us Brits doesn’t mean I think should be off the table for Russians. It should have happened to us too but, hey it didn’t. What goes around, comes around; we'll have to deal with it in other ways. Agreed that things like this are not equal across all circumstances, but I don't think it means it shouldn't be done. | ||
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
[QUOTE]On March 05 2022 04:21 renaissanceMAN wrote: It should have happened to us too but, hey it didn’t. [/QUOTE] Imagine being so out of touch with reality that you are making the argument that you think your own country should have been subject to sanctions just so you can continue to campaign to ban some powerless people from playing a relatively small video game without looking like a hypocrite, instead of realizing that what you're on about is absolutely insane. "All of my money is worthless and I can't even get it out of the bank but at least we're getting what we deserve!" - said no one ever This thread is literally nothing but virtue signaling. The fact that even most of the people in favor of banning the players know that it won't actually accomplish anything, but they still want to do it, just convinces me of something Artosis said a few months ago: TL is stupider than youtube comments. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On March 05 2022 05:47 honorablemacroterran wrote: People who think Starcraft tournaments are inherently political are out of their fucking minds. Nobody: Hey, who wants to shit all over some powerless people who barely make any money to send a message to Pootin? Half this thread: SIGN ME UP FAM Meanwhile the same people were acting so upset over the Chinese players maybe not being able to get visas for Katowice. Nobody has said that though. Do you just have a straw man ready to post before even reading the thread? Starcraft isn’t inherently political, it just doesn’t exist in some alternate dimension, insulated from politics. There are regular, commercial sanctions that effect ordinary Russians. There are regular sporting sanctions (also, unlike eSports a very politicised arena), the discussion is what will be, or what should be the impact on this scene. For fuck’s sake the scene loses firm favourites every year to military service. Military service they have no choice in doing that is imposed, for no political reason whatsoever. ESL can’t just go ‘ok I know Russians are banned from travelling (I know this isn’t a current sanction, but hypothetical), but we’ll get them into our tournaments, Starcraft is not political.’’ Also I don’t see any connection or hypocrisy between thinking sanctions are appropriate and it sucking that Chinese players might not have got visas for Katowice :S I don’t bloody WANT Russians around the world to be turfed out of their fields, it fucking sucks for them. Equally I really, really don’t want a country being you know, invaded. As the aptly named Renaissance Man said, yeah it’s unfair, that’s kind of the point. | ||
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Goma
Germany15 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
[QUOTE]On March 05 2022 06:05 WombaT wrote: [QUOTE]On March 05 2022 04:21 renaissanceMAN wrote: It should have happened to us too but, hey it didn’t. [/QUOTE] Imagine being so out of touch with reality that you are making the argument that you think your own country should have been subject to sanctions just so you can continue to campaign to ban some powerless people from playing a relatively small video game without looking like a hypocrite, instead of realizing that what you're on about is absolutely insane. "All of my money is worthless and I can't even get it out of the bank but at least we're getting what we deserve!" - said no one ever This thread is literally nothing but virtue signaling. The fact that even most of the people in favor of banning the players know that it won't actually accomplish anything, but they still want to do it, just convinces me of something Artosis said a few months ago: TL is stupider than youtube comments.[/QUOTE] Artosis is generally sensible when not streaming Brood War but that’s a pretty shocking take haha. Yes. In a nutshell. I’m advocating for the absolute opposite of virtue signalling anyway. I’m not sitting around changing my Facebook picture to have a Ukrainian flag, I’m advocating for sanctions as a method of applying real consequences, in this specific instance and also as a general approach that should also include my own nation in that. I don’t see my particular view of reality as being any more naive than trying to compartmentalise things as being completely unrelated to each other and thus beyond the scope of fair consequence. End of the day the Russian state is invading Ukraine presently. Plenty of Russians oppose this but plenty do not. War is the most costly endeavour humanity can undergo. A cost that is not felt by most of us. I can say, and did say I was opposed to the Iraq war and that’s about it, nothing to do with me. When it does become your business, via whatever measure of broader sanction, well it tends to focus oneself on quite to the degree you oppose this course of action. Or alternatively, broadly speaking countries with some form of compulsory military service populaces tend to be more circumspect when it comes to matters of armed conflict, for obvious reasons. This is especially pertinent in functioning liberal democracies, and some failures in sanctions have been in application of sanctions on closed, dictatorial regimes. Or being dubious sanctions to begin with. As per my example if the rest of the world had showed some balls and sanctioned the US and the U.K. and other involved nations, People also aren’t powerless, apathetic certainly. It’s hard to be apathetic it your bank account’s value is wiped out. Ukrainians I presume weren’t particularly happy to wake up to their cities being shelled, nor will everyone down to the poorest in society be happy that after the economic knock of COVID there’s going to be further price increases to survive in the wake of this invasion. Those things sound rather more unfair to me than some people not playing in a video game tournament. The best scenario is this ends ASAP and our Ukrainian and Russian brothers and sisters can get back to living their best lives. If sanctions can expedite that I’m all for them. I have no particular desire to see Russian players banned incidentally, I actually haven’t said that you just assumed that. But if they’re in Russia and down the line travel or visa restrictions get enacted, then there’s little eSports orgs can do. For Western based Russians, who aren’t competing in sports representing Russia, especially those vocally against the war I don’t really see a rationale to ban them. The whole point of sanctions is to amplify internal Russian pressure so the state changes course. If you’re not in Russia, or have already expressed condemnation, or both there’s little sense to me in extending the fist to you. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
[QUOTE]On March 05 2022 06:20 honorablemacroterran wrote: [QUOTE]On March 05 2022 06:05 WombaT wrote: [QUOTE]On March 05 2022 04:21 renaissanceMAN wrote: It should have happened to us too but, hey it didn’t. [/QUOTE] Imagine being so out of touch with reality that you are making the argument that you think your own country should have been subject to sanctions just so you can continue to campaign to ban some powerless people from playing a relatively small video game without looking like a hypocrite, instead of realizing that what you're on about is absolutely insane. "All of my money is worthless and I can't even get it out of the bank but at least we're getting what we deserve!" - said no one ever This thread is literally nothing but virtue signaling. The fact that even most of the people in favor of banning the players know that it won't actually accomplish anything, but they still want to do it, just convinces me of something Artosis said a few months ago: TL is stupider than youtube comments.[/QUOTE] + Show Spoiler + Artosis is generally sensible when not streaming Brood War but that’s a pretty shocking take haha. Yes. In a nutshell. I’m advocating for the absolute opposite of virtue signalling anyway. I’m not sitting around changing my Facebook picture to have a Ukrainian flag, I’m advocating for sanctions as a method of applying real consequences, in this specific instance and also as a general approach that should also include my own nation in that. I don’t see my particular view of reality as being any more naive than trying to compartmentalise things as being completely unrelated to each other and thus beyond the scope of fair consequence. End of the day the Russian state is invading Ukraine presently. Plenty of Russians oppose this but plenty do not. War is the most costly endeavour humanity can undergo. A cost that is not felt by most of us. I can say, and did say I was opposed to the Iraq war and that’s about it, nothing to do with me. When it does become your business, via whatever measure of broader sanction, well it tends to focus oneself on quite to the degree you oppose this course of action. Or alternatively, broadly speaking countries with some form of compulsory military service populaces tend to be more circumspect when it comes to matters of armed conflict, for obvious reasons. This is especially pertinent in functioning liberal democracies, and some failures in sanctions have been in application of sanctions on closed, dictatorial regimes. Or being dubious sanctions to begin with. As per my example if the rest of the world had showed some balls and sanctioned the US and the U.K. and other involved nations, People also aren’t powerless, apathetic certainly. It’s hard to be apathetic it your bank account’s value is wiped out. Ukrainians I presume weren’t particularly happy to wake up to their cities being shelled, nor will everyone down to the poorest in society be happy that after the economic knock of COVID there’s going to be further price increases to survive in the wake of this invasion. Those things sound rather more unfair to me than some people not playing in a video game tournament. The best scenario is this ends ASAP and our Ukrainian and Russian brothers and sisters can get back to living their best lives. If sanctions can expedite that I’m all for them. I have no particular desire to see Russian players banned incidentally, I actually haven’t said that you just assumed that. But if they’re in Russia and down the line travel or visa restrictions get enacted, then there’s little eSports orgs can do. For Western based Russians, who aren’t competing in sports representing Russia, especially those vocally against the war I don’t really see a rationale to ban them. The whole point of sanctions is to amplify internal Russian pressure so the state changes course. If you’re not in Russia, or have already expressed condemnation, or both there’s little sense to me in extending the fist to you. I have to say that's a pretty good presentation of the arguments | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 05 2022 06:02 aringadingding wrote: I am surprised that people doesnt understand that other people are upset that russia is invading an innocent country. And I am also surprised about the weird argument "there are other horrible things in the world, so lets not do anything now".... with that logic, noone will never make any action to any country ever. And I am surprised you didn't read the argument that dismantles your surprise, namely about PUNISHING THEM ALL FFS. Edit> Also, if you don't know how to edit others posts, maybe, just a suggestion, maybe stop doing it  Then the post ends longer than without your "editing" | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
The thought of banning all progamers (many of whom aren't even 18) doesn't sit well with me | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
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IMSupervisor
Australia138 Posts
On March 05 2022 09:35 WombaT wrote: @Nakajin, Why thank you man! I look forward to the next post that sidesteps what me and others are saying and puts forth devastating ripostes to complete straw man arguments. It's seems pretty obvious to me that the only people trying to signal how virtuous they are are the ones attacking others for their thoughts, and using language like hypocrite, xenophobia, bigotry and virtue signalling. The people trying to shut down discussion as though they have it all figured out are the ones we can ignore - they're just ideologues without much understanding of how complex issues like this really are. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On March 05 2022 10:29 IMSupervisor wrote: It's seems pretty obvious to me that the only people trying to signal how virtuous they are are the ones attacking others for their thoughts, and using language like hypocrite, xenophobia, bigotry and virtue signalling. The people trying to shut down discussion as though they have it all figured out are the ones we can ignore - they're just ideologues without much understanding of how complex issues like this really are. Virtue signalling seems to have morphed from a genuinely useful descriptive term for a certain phenomenon to ‘having an opinion on an issue’, which is obviously silly. Similarly charges of hypocrisy only really work if one is being genuinely hypocritical. The wider, non military deployed constituents of the West who went in, and stayed in Iraq faced no hardship whatsoever from that scenario. I think they should have. Which apparently makes me a hypocrite for thinking Russians should face the consequences of the actions of their state, somehow | ||
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
It seems to me like you are trying not to seem like a hypocrite by claiming that you would have been fine with your own people being subject to sanctions, which is convenient because it never happened and is a very remote possibility if not an impossibility. It's impossible to believe that you would actually want to live under the sanctions already imposed on Russia, let alone also being banned from playing Starcraft given how often you post on these forums. I normally try to avoid attributing motives to people but when I read what you wrote I was astounded. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On March 05 2022 11:07 honorablemacroterran wrote: It's virtue signaling because even most people in favor of banning them knows it's not going to accomplish anything, but they don't care. It's not actually about accomplishing anything. It's about being seen as "doing your part," even if it's unfair to the people actually affected by the decision and doesn't move the needle on ending the war. This is pretty much the essence of virtue signalling. It seems to me like you are trying not to seem like a hypocrite by claiming that you would have been fine with your own people being subject to sanctions, which is convenient because it never happened and is a very remote possibility if not an impossibility. It's impossible to believe that you would actually want to live under the sanctions already imposed on Russia, let alone also being banned from playing Starcraft given how often you post on these forums. I normally try to avoid attributing motives to people but when I read what you wrote I was astounded. More people died in Iraq than the population of my home city, the capital over here. I wouldn’t want to live under the sanctions being imposed, that is entirely, entirely the point of them. | ||
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
Sanctions killed as many people as the Iraq War. | ||
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ZeroByte13
785 Posts
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IMSupervisor
Australia138 Posts
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