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Exactly. It's not about who's good and who's bad. It's basically about - can we bully them into submission?
I hope those people here who feel they have high moral ground don't forget this.
West is not being "righteous" here but cynical and calculating in their decisions "can we bully X if we don't like what they're doing?"
If USA or China will decide your country is bad and start bombing/invading it (like they did with many countries in last 30 years) for some reason - nobody will help you, nobody will stand for you even if it would the right thing to do.
Of course it doesn't change anything. I just want people to be honest to themselves.
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On March 07 2022 19:42 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Exactly. It's not about who's good and who's bad. It's basically about - can we bully them into submission?
I hope those people here who feel they have high moral ground don't forget this.
West is not being "righteous" here but cynical and calculating in their decisions "can we bully X if we don't like what they're doing?"
If USA or China will decide your country is bad and start bombing/invading it (like they did with many countries in last 30 years) for some reason - nobody will help you, nobody will stand for you even if it would the right thing to do.
Of course it doesn't change anything. I just want people to be honest to themselves.
Last 30 years China bombed/invaded which country? How could China be mentioned together with USA?
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Do you think China didn't commit any Really Bad Things in last 30 years?
Bombing and invading was more about US, yes, but the overall meaning was about this - if real "heavy-weights" will start doing bad things to your country, most probably everyone will say "well, sucks to be you, we won't do anything".
I.e. unlike what many think/say here, it's not about "doing the right thing".
It's about cynical and calculated "can we bully the Bad Country if they're doing something bad?"
Oh, if it's USA/China, they get a pass, we'll look away.
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Northern Ireland25510 Posts
On March 07 2022 19:42 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Exactly. It's not about who's good and who's bad. It's basically about - can we bully them into submission?
I hope those people here who feel they have high moral ground don't forget this.
West is not being "righteous" here but cynical and calculating in their decisions "can we bully X if we don't like what they're doing?"
If USA or China will decide your country is bad and start bombing/invading it (like they did with many countries in last 30 years) for some reason - nobody will help you, nobody will stand for you even if it would the right thing to do.
Of course it doesn't change anything. I just want people to be honest to themselves.
No, it’s still entirely about who’s good and bad, as well as capacity to do something about it, as well as innumerable other factors.
Russia is the bad guy here in this instance, it just so happens to be a bad guy that can also be bullied to a certain degree. Is it the bad guy all the time? Well no.
There’s a remarkable amount of requests for honesty in a thread chock full of whataboutery, never mind the conflation of the West and the United States, ofc the U.K. was also part of those operations.
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There's no conflation of USA and West here. It's about West's reaction.
USA / UK / NATO does something bad - West doesn't bat an eye.
Russia does something bad - West is full of righteous wrath.
"whataboutery" - yes.
Because when Bad Country A does bad things multiple times and nothing happens to its citizens and even to the government, and then when Bad Country B does bad things and everyone sanctions not just the government but also its citizens who did nothing wrong - it's kinda hard to feel "yeah, I deserved it, I'm totaly fine with living in terrible conditions".
Because "yeah but that's how it always goes, it just can't be another way" doesn't work here.
It only works this way against some counties (and their citizens) and not for others.
Kinda hard to not feel resentment towards sanctions towards plain folks when you're condemned to living in Really Bad Conditions while many really bad guys/countries get away with their war crimes as if nothing happened.
They commited a war crime? They get a pass, sorry, we can't do anything, won't lift a finger.
You personally haven't done anything wrong? Too bad, you have to suffer, sorry, there's no other choice.
...yeah, this couldn't possibly make people resentful towards West and their sanctions towards common folks, right.
Oh wait, this is exactly what happens in such scenarios when people are punished for what they haven't done. 
I know many people here who were kinda (or mostly) pro-West for as long as I knew them. And I see that for many of them this stance is changing now.
Because people desperately need support in time of need, and now they feel that entire outside world hates them and doesn't support them at all. While their government at least promises to support them in some way "against bad West with their sanctions".
It will end up in another North Korea, angry and isolated, but with huge nuclear and military arsenal, and right at Europe's doorsteps. It will not end well.
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The West is just as unlikely to sanction itself as China or Russia is to sanctioning itself. Or any other greater power.
It would just be stupid to weaken your own position on the world stage, due to "moral righteousness", because the world order gets dictated by whomever has the biggest leverage. This is why international relations are considered anarchy by some (as in there is no greater authority that settles conflicts.)
Sanctions in this large scale are also a type of modern warfare, because you are trying to destabilize a country, and like every type of warfare, innocent civilians suffer the most from it.
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Exactly.
The West tries to destroy Russia and its population - ok, fine.
Not many people here have any illusions about West being "good guys" who care about us (people, not state) in the slightest.
As there should be no illusions that the West cares about Ukraine and its people that much - they will be readily sacrificed for more leverage against Russia if necessary, it's just another tool.
I just wish people didn't try to sugarcoat it. I wish they admited it's done not because of justice or goodwill, but because it's politically profitable.
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On March 07 2022 22:19 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Exactly.
The West tries to destroy Russia and its population - ok, fine.
Not many people here have any illusions about West being "good guys" who care about us (people, not state) in the slightest.
As there should be no illusions that the West cares about Ukraine and its people that much - they will be readily sacrificed for more leverage against Russia if necessary, it's just another tool.
I just wish people didn't try to sugarcoat it. I wish they admited it's done not because of justice or goodwill, but because it's politically profitable.
The whole world would benefit if Russia stopped being an imperialistic trashheap and started cooperating with other countries.
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On March 07 2022 22:19 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Exactly.
The West tries to destroy Russia and its population - ok, fine.
Not many people here have any illusions about West being "good guys" who care about us (people, not state) in the slightest.
As there should be no illusions that the West cares about Ukraine and its people that much - they will be readily sacrificed for more leverage against Russia if necessary, it's just another tool.
I just wish people didn't try to sugarcoat it. I wish they admited it's done not because of justice or goodwill, but because it's politically profitable.
For the topic, banning players is kind of meaningles at this point, in this kind of competition nationality plays IMO very little in the actual gamedynamic and how players interract with each other.
That being said, I have no idea of your "west". This conflict is all about Russia being dangerious country to every nation it borders. If you really want to spin it in a way, that Murrica or Nato is some kind of bogeyman behind the curtain fine. You think, that us for example have forgotten the crap that Russia has done to us during last 80 years? Or what Poland and Baltic countries suffered under USSR? This has nothing to do with some "West", if Putin wanted to have some kind of relation with countries bordering Russia, maybe he should have done something about it, as being said the choice was war.
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"You think, that us for example have forgotten the crap that Russia has done to us during last 80 years"
I hope you also remember Finland being on Nazi side in WW2. If you _really_ wanna bring things from the past here and think that current generation should pay for events from 80 years ago.
Also how exactly the true fact that "Poland and Baltic countries suffered under USSR" justifies condemning innocent population (who had no voice in what USSR government did and half of them weren't even born at that point) now?
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Northern Ireland25510 Posts
On March 07 2022 20:21 ZeroByte13 wrote:There's no conflation of USA and West here. It's about West's reaction. USA / UK / NATO does something bad - West doesn't bat an eye. Russia does something bad - West is full of righteous wrath. "whataboutery" - yes. Because when Bad Country A does bad things multiple times and nothing happens to its citizens and even to the government, and then when Bad Country B does bad things and everyone sanctions not just the government but also its citizens who did nothing wrong - it's kinda hard to feel "yeah, I deserved it, I'm totaly fine with living in terrible conditions".Because "yeah but that's how it always goes, it just can't be another way" doesn't work here. It only works this way against some counties (and their citizens) and not for others. Kinda hard to not feel resentment towards sanctions towards plain folks when you're condemned to living in Really Bad Conditions while many really bad guys/countries get away with their war crimes as if nothing happened. They commited a war crime? They get a pass, sorry, we can't do anything, won't lift a finger. You personally haven't done anything wrong? Too bad, you have to suffer, sorry, there's no other choice. ...yeah, this couldn't possibly make people resentful towards West and their sanctions towards common folks, right. Oh wait, this is exactly what happens in such scenarios when people are punished for what they haven't done. I know many people here who were kinda (or mostly) pro-West for as long as I knew them. And I see that for many of them this stance is changing now. Because people desperately need support in time of need, and now they feel that entire outside world hates them and doesn't support them at all. While their government at least promises to support them in some way "against bad West with their sanctions". It will end up in another North Korea, angry and isolated, but with huge nuclear and military arsenal, and right at Europe's doorsteps. It will not end well.
Just because almost every blatantly corrupt billionaire can be forever insulated from prosecution by virtue of their wealth, doesn’t mean I think the odd one that does get convicted should go free because it would be hypocritical as they’re being singled out. A similar principle applies here.
States do not exist without people, ultimately. People like to beat the drums of nationalism, conquest, revenge and war rather a lot when they’re completely isolated from what that actually means and the consequences.
If one wants to ride the tiger of nationalism into those kind of areas, I think putting collective asses on the line if it spirals out of control is an effective way to exert some limits.
Certainly didn’t happen with Iraq. Certainly would not have happened here for most Russians but for sanctions.
An important note is that this general tethering principle is absolutely not the same thing as saying any individual in a nation is individually responsible for the actions of their nation. It is that if collective actions have collective consequences, those actions have to be taken and advocated for more judiciously.
Another important thing to note is the rather large amount of nations who did not go to war in Iraq, or went beyond that to actively opposing it. Because it was very unpopular and people made this known.
The outside world doesn’t support this, indeed. These aren’t anti-Russian sanctions. They’re not the (I’d argue) unjust and ineffective standards we’ve seen that are primarily if not entirely US driven, as we’ve seen with Cuba, or Iran. That do indeed act to entrench the very things they’re meant to (IMO wrongly) dislodge. I’d argue they are such different scenarios that they’re not even particularly linked beyond falling under the umbrella of sanctions.
They are ‘get the fuck out of Western Ukraine’ sanctions, brought by half the world in various guises.
I would not, for example support a continuation of the vast majority of these sanctions in a scenario where there is a cessation of hostility.
I’m seeing very little appetite to destroy the lives of ordinary Russians. I’m sure it’s been expressed all over the internet, but it’s certainly not the mainstream view anywhere I’ve seen.
Also conspicuous by their absence are posts from ‘not Russia’ are I dunno, anything besides this whataboutery? What about all the other aspects of this scenario? Like one’s stance on even going into Ukraine.
From what I understand it is unwise to express certain viewpoints on this issue, especially on Western-based forums, so if that is accurate I would certainly recommend not engaging with those areas.
What even is ‘the West’ here?
What links, I don’t know, Finland and the United States really?
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Two wrongs don't make a right.
"The West" should definitely help Ukraine beat back Russia, then do anything it could to unseat Putin without risking nuclear war. Then it can start paying reparations to Libya, Iraq etc and maybe send Bush, Sarkozy, Obama and the likes to the same prison Putin is staying at.
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On March 07 2022 23:04 ZeroByte13 wrote:"You think, that us for example have forgotten the crap that Russia has done to us during last 80 years"I hope you also remember Finland being on Nazi side in WW2. If you _really_ wanna bring things from the past here and think that current generation should pay for events from 80 years ago. Also how exactly the true fact that "Poland and Baltic countries suffered under USSR" justifies condemning innocent population (who had no voice in what USSR government did and half of them weren't even born at that point) now?
Yes it makes sense, the nazification of Finland is good reason to threaten us. Every country around Russia should just bow down to it, get bombed when ever, forced into crap like YYA and what not. I did not know about link with Nazi Finland- Germany - Ukraine and todays Nato, thank you for clarifying this information.
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On March 07 2022 23:16 WombaT wrote:Like one’s stance on even going into Ukraine.
You can figure out my stance exactly from me not touching this topic...
Only sanctions towards common folks in hopes it will make them "do something" are wrong to me.
Like, there's a guy who bullies someone. You don't want to confront this guy (he's big and armed) to not escalate the direct violence, so to teach him a lesson you break his mom's legs and threaten to do the same to his sister (i.e. more sanctions) if he won't stop.
Why not - after all maybe his mom will beg him to stop and he'll listen, right?
Can this be effective? Maybe.
Is this reprehensible to make innocents suffer for what their "relatives" did? Absolutely.
Only in our case it has a quite small chance of being effective. If you lived here you'd know this.
So basically it just makes innocents suffer because "we can't do anything else, but at least we can do this" for no gain.
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Northern Ireland25510 Posts
On March 07 2022 23:34 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2022 23:16 WombaT wrote:Like one’s stance on even going into Ukraine. You can figure out my stance exactly from me not touching this topic... Only sanctions towards common folks in hopes it will make them "do something" are wrong to me. Like, there's a guy who bullies someone. You don't want to confront this guy (he's big and armed) to not escalate the direct violence, so to teach him a lesson you break his mom's legs and threaten to do the same to his sister (i.e. more sanctions) if he won't stop. Why not - after all maybe his mom will beg him to stop and he'll listen, right? Can this be effective? Maybe. Is this reprehensible to make innocents suffer for what their "relatives" did? Absolutely. Only in our case it has a quite small chance of being effective. If you lived here you'd know this. So basically it just makes innocents suffer because "we can't do anything else, but at least we can do this" for no gain.
There isn’t really a directly applicable analogy for this scenario.
It is reprehensible in ways yes, I don’t actually think many would argue otherwise. It is merely the least reprehensible option available when the alternatives are leave Russia to do their thing, or risk a serious escalation of war by trying to directly confront it.
Ironically where such sanctions would, IMO be way more effective (namely the West) they’re not applied, as you correctly point out.
We shall see how effective they are in this case.
I don’t think those of us that are in favour of sanctions, although I can only speak for myself, have any illusions over it having some massive impact.
Move the needle just enough to stop innocent folks dying in Ukraine, and innocent people in Russia can stop suffering via sanctions.
Any wider, sustained sanctions post that, with the intention of trying to push that needle all the way to something like regime change in Russia would be a giant mistake, for the reasons you have stated before.
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On March 03 2022 14:37 phodacbiet wrote:
No, I don't think they should ban Russian teams/players. I think sc2 organizers should stay out of politics.
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While there are people thinking like you, ruzzia is happy to invade all the countries they want. The more people think that killing innocent peoples, children, raping and robbing everyone they see on their way in the scale of thousands crimes per day... .
Btw, there were another comment in the topic about 'innocent' players from ru, but
1. Most of them refused to be non-affiliant even to ru flag,
2. Stayed live in ru and pay taxes funding the war and all the crimes in Ukraine and other countries
3. Think they could act with impunity even after cheating in SC2 (master vasya, nerazim and other creatures)
4. If you still think OK with previous 3 point (who are you?!) let's check insta profiles for some of Pro ru gamers who partisipates in ESL tour right now. Check YoungYakov profile photo. It's clearly seen he is is wearing an army uniform (ruzzian one of course) and has covered his face.
User was banned for this post.
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EPT
