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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 29 2021 05:34 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2021 04:03 deacon.frost wrote:On March 29 2021 03:33 Ben... wrote:On March 29 2021 02:49 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Personally though, I could stand to see Lurkers take a hit with the nerf bat, they seem to do just an absolute insane amount of damage and are quite durable and nimble, Adaptive Talons should just be removed from the game, it removes one of the key weaknesses of the unit for no real apparent reason.
Yeah, I agree. Though really it could be either one of the two upgrades to go. Lurkers with more range but slower is manageable (something like tempests). Similarly, fast but lower range is also manageable since you can at least outrange them with storm, colossus, or disruptors. With both upgrades, a critical mass of lurkers is almost uncounterable on the ground for protoss. They can't be stormed (and storm barely hurts them), can't be outranged by colossus, and can unburrow and move quickly enough to dodge disruptor shots. At least Terran has snipe against the I suppose. Protoss having air be as strong as it is right now is almost a necessity because without it, mass lurker/spore/viper/queen would be almost unbeatable. I'd be fine with void rays being toned down on condition lurkers are also weakened a bit. Both units are a bit too good right now but making one weaker without also dealing with the other will skew PvZ to whichever one wasn't nerfed. Of course, the chance of any of this happening is slim to none, but one can dream I guess? edit: Queen walk strategies are a lot more complicated. On the one hand, they're really silly to watch and seem like something that was never intended to be part of the game. On the other hand, these strategies are counterable if scouted and the threat of them is almost necessary to exist because of the current state of void rays. The other thing is that queen walks are quite map-dependent. On some maps the strategy is very strong (Pillars of Gold) while on others it's basically useless (Deathaura being one). Map design could be used to handle queen walks in the same way it was used to partly deal with blink all-ins. In the meantime Harstem on his YOutube says, that if Protoss opens air you just queen walk to victory. I take Harstem over you, no offense. (if i wasn't that lazy and havent seen that many of his videos I would provide even source) I’m not sure Harstem said that, specifically anyway. Queen walks kill 2 SG void into sky toss pretty nastily yeah, they don’t fare particularly well against all sorts of other stuff, why we’re seeing a lot of mind game fake 2 SG plays recently, Hurricane v Rag in Code A recently being an example of that.
He may have gone wild for them Youtube clicks, who knows. That's what he said and no, it wasn't about 2 SG, he said if there's a VR and an oracle, it's a win. He wasn't exactly map specific but I guess there are maps where this is much worse situation. Like look, I don't care if it's FUBAR or not, I care about the fact it's boring and stupid, queens are supposed to be defensive units and if you want to transport them they should go via nydus or ovies, not off creep slowly marching to the victory. NOt that you mass queens and roaches and move to the other side to go YOLO.
Edit> But anyway, it;s pointless, in the end we may have new maps, but for sure we won't get SC2 updated so the stupid stuff(which may be balanced, but so far doesn't seem so) will be updated. Because Blizzard said - here you have buffed VR, shield batteries and we know Has and Rotti will go wild and you all will love it on the ladder, so cya in the Mobile Starcraft!~
Edit2> Also I don't get this balance talk. We may get the last balance patch, we should focus on fun and playability instead of "balance", again, swormhosts were balanced. They were trash to play against. It doesn't matter if these tactics are balanced, they trash and people hate to play against them and many even hate to see them in pro matches. FFS if we wanna get something get us somethign we won't leave because we get annoyed beyond reasonable level. And honestly, once i stop playing I stop watching, because what's the point. And I really don't want to do that, but the current status ties my hands.
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On March 29 2021 06:45 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2021 05:34 WombaT wrote:On March 29 2021 04:03 deacon.frost wrote:On March 29 2021 03:33 Ben... wrote:On March 29 2021 02:49 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Personally though, I could stand to see Lurkers take a hit with the nerf bat, they seem to do just an absolute insane amount of damage and are quite durable and nimble, Adaptive Talons should just be removed from the game, it removes one of the key weaknesses of the unit for no real apparent reason.
Yeah, I agree. Though really it could be either one of the two upgrades to go. Lurkers with more range but slower is manageable (something like tempests). Similarly, fast but lower range is also manageable since you can at least outrange them with storm, colossus, or disruptors. With both upgrades, a critical mass of lurkers is almost uncounterable on the ground for protoss. They can't be stormed (and storm barely hurts them), can't be outranged by colossus, and can unburrow and move quickly enough to dodge disruptor shots. At least Terran has snipe against the I suppose. Protoss having air be as strong as it is right now is almost a necessity because without it, mass lurker/spore/viper/queen would be almost unbeatable. I'd be fine with void rays being toned down on condition lurkers are also weakened a bit. Both units are a bit too good right now but making one weaker without also dealing with the other will skew PvZ to whichever one wasn't nerfed. Of course, the chance of any of this happening is slim to none, but one can dream I guess? edit: Queen walk strategies are a lot more complicated. On the one hand, they're really silly to watch and seem like something that was never intended to be part of the game. On the other hand, these strategies are counterable if scouted and the threat of them is almost necessary to exist because of the current state of void rays. The other thing is that queen walks are quite map-dependent. On some maps the strategy is very strong (Pillars of Gold) while on others it's basically useless (Deathaura being one). Map design could be used to handle queen walks in the same way it was used to partly deal with blink all-ins. In the meantime Harstem on his YOutube says, that if Protoss opens air you just queen walk to victory. I take Harstem over you, no offense. (if i wasn't that lazy and havent seen that many of his videos I would provide even source) I’m not sure Harstem said that, specifically anyway. Queen walks kill 2 SG void into sky toss pretty nastily yeah, they don’t fare particularly well against all sorts of other stuff, why we’re seeing a lot of mind game fake 2 SG plays recently, Hurricane v Rag in Code A recently being an example of that. He may have gone wild for them Youtube clicks, who knows. That's what he said and no, it wasn't about 2 SG, he said if there's a VR and an oracle, it's a win. He wasn't exactly map specific but I guess there are maps where this is much worse situation. Like look, I don't care if it's FUBAR or not, I care about the fact it's boring and stupid, queens are supposed to be defensive units and if you want to transport them they should go via nydus or ovies, not off creep slowly marching to the victory. NOt that you mass queens and roaches and move to the other side to go YOLO. Edit> But anyway, it;s pointless, in the end we may have new maps, but for sure we won't get SC2 updated so the stupid stuff(which may be balanced, but so far doesn't seem so) will be updated. Because Blizzard said - here you have buffed VR, shield batteries and we know Has and Rotti will go wild and you all will love it on the ladder, so cya in the Mobile Starcraft!~ Edit2> Also I don't get this balance talk. We may get the last balance patch, we should focus on fun and playability instead of "balance", again, swormhosts were balanced. They were trash to play against. It doesn't matter if these tactics are balanced, they trash and people hate to play against them and many even hate to see them in pro matches. FFS if we wanna get something get us somethign we won't leave because we get annoyed beyond reasonable level. And honestly, once i stop playing I stop watching, because what's the point. And I really don't want to do that, but the current status ties my hands.
Ultimately I do agree to a point, a small balance patch here and there to tone down some obviously OP units like the Lurker probably wouldn't be for the worst imo
Really wouldn't even mind Bile not negating FF either, seems like a thing that sounded great when LOTV came out and now it's just too strong and invalidates the sentry too much.
Terran looks to be struggling a bit in TvZ at the moment, could be a shift in the meta but it could be a more long lasting issue.
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On March 29 2021 05:39 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2021 04:37 InfCereal wrote:
Everyone's talking about balance, no one's talking about the fact zerg's are abandoning the game in droves because it's not fun to play.
Yeah, the game is balanced. It's just not fun.
First I’m hearing that the game is particularly unfun for Zergs tbh. Can’t say I’m super on top of forums outside of TL but I can’t see much that’s bad enough to have people abandon the game outside of people who are just burned out on the game, certainly nothing that’s particular awful for any particular race.
Really?
No one I know likes the current state of the game. Its been discussed in this thread even - every game is a queen walk. (or some timing). The other matchups are fine, but you never actually get them.
I can only speak for the masters/gm level, as that's where I am, and that's where my friends are, but if you just look at the stats, it supports what I'm whining about. This is global masters, the red line is somewhere around the voidray patch.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/PmYC4dg.png)
And GM
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/S5HgEY9.png)
We face a disproportionate amount of protoss players, most of them open voidray, and we're going to do a timing because "kill them before they get there". How many times can you scout 2sg void, and just walk queens across the map before you get bored? Most of the people I talk to don't even have loss-y records in zvp. They're just bored
It's the same reason it's not fun that broodlord/infestor in wol wasn't fun. The game was technically balanced (source: aligulac), but god it fucking sucked to play.
On top of that, allthingszerg discord is basically a ghost-town nowaday, and it used to be basically the place to be to learn/improve at zerg (imo).
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It's the same reason it's not fun that broodlord/infestor in wol wasn't fun. The game was technically balanced (source: aligulac), but god it fucking sucked to play.
Broodlord/Infestor was absolutely not balanced according to Aligulac.
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On March 29 2021 08:06 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +
It's the same reason it's not fun that broodlord/infestor in wol wasn't fun. The game was technically balanced (source: aligulac), but god it fucking sucked to play.
Broodlord/Infestor was absolutely not balanced according to Aligulac.
The last tick before HOTS is 49.54% PvT, 45.62% PvZ, 45.09% TvZ.
+/- 5% is pretty well balanced. Obviously skewed in zerg's favor, but in what is widely regarded as the worst period of the game, zerg was only winning 5 more games out of 100. Like, it's pretty good.
Overall, starcraft 2 has been remarkably balanced. Almost all of the issues with SC2 have been design, not balance.
For perspective, the most imbalanced periods of the game were closer to 10%, at hots release, patch 3.8, and lotv release.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 29 2021 08:06 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +
It's the same reason it's not fun that broodlord/infestor in wol wasn't fun. The game was technically balanced (source: aligulac), but god it fucking sucked to play.
Broodlord/Infestor was absolutely not balanced according to Aligulac.
Technically it doesn't matter and I dare to say that if Blizzard would have left it for another 3 months it would have balanced. At the time I was a pure Protoss player so no idea how ZvZ/TvZ went, but at PvZ MC was using a strategy with storm, archons, colossi, void rays, carriers and moma ship. And he was quite successful with it and it appeared that this is the composition which can beat the BL/Infestor nonsense quite reliably. (apart from the 3base +3 colossus timing, but I am not sure if that wasn't figured out by zergs at the end of WoL) I would like to say that MC didn't rely on the archon toilet. To be fair it's not surprising it was winning, I believe it was the most expensive army you could have gone for at that time.
Edit> Oh, yeah, why it doesn't matter - because it was boring to watch, boring to play against and IMO boring to play with. Which resulted more or less in angrying everybody. In other words - balance didn't matter while it helped for the cry to patch it out.
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On March 29 2021 08:27 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2021 08:06 Athenau wrote:
It's the same reason it's not fun that broodlord/infestor in wol wasn't fun. The game was technically balanced (source: aligulac), but god it fucking sucked to play.
Broodlord/Infestor was absolutely not balanced according to Aligulac. The last tick before HOTS is 49.54% PvT, 45.62% PvZ, 45.09% TvZ. +/- 5% is pretty well balanced. Obviously skewed in zerg's favor, but in what is widely regarded as the worst period of the game, zerg was only winning 5 more games out of 100. Like, it's pretty good. Overall, starcraft 2 has been remarkably balanced. Almost all of the issues with SC2 have been design, not balance. For perspective, the most imbalanced periods of the game were closer to 10%, at hots release, patch 3.8, and lotv release.
Peak Broodlord-Infestor started from patch 1.4.3 (the infamous Queen patch) to HotS. In those 11 months TvZ dipped as low as 42.93%(with seven months below 45%) and PvZ as low as 45.62%. A single month of 45% winrates might be considered barely acceptable, but almost a year of that sort of imbalance was and is atrocious.
The raw winrates didn't tell the whole story, you can see the massive rating swings in favor of Zerg players all throughout 2012, which is quite something since that metric is supposed to reach an equilibrium, but it didn't, even after a prolonged period of time with no balance changes.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On March 29 2021 07:40 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2021 05:39 WombaT wrote:On March 29 2021 04:37 InfCereal wrote:
Everyone's talking about balance, no one's talking about the fact zerg's are abandoning the game in droves because it's not fun to play.
Yeah, the game is balanced. It's just not fun.
First I’m hearing that the game is particularly unfun for Zergs tbh. Can’t say I’m super on top of forums outside of TL but I can’t see much that’s bad enough to have people abandon the game outside of people who are just burned out on the game, certainly nothing that’s particular awful for any particular race. Really? No one I know likes the current state of the game. Its been discussed in this thread even - every game is a queen walk. (or some timing). The other matchups are fine, but you never actually get them. I can only speak for the masters/gm level, as that's where I am, and that's where my friends are, but if you just look at the stats, it supports what I'm whining about. This is global masters, the red line is somewhere around the voidray patch. And GM We face a disproportionate amount of protoss players, most of them open voidray, and we're going to do a timing because "kill them before they get there". How many times can you scout 2sg void, and just walk queens across the map before you get bored? Most of the people I talk to don't even have loss-y records in zvp. They're just boredIt's the same reason it's not fun that broodlord/infestor in wol wasn't fun. The game was technically balanced (source: aligulac), but god it fucking sucked to play. On top of that, allthingszerg discord is basically a ghost-town nowaday, and it used to be basically the place to be to learn/improve at zerg (imo).
Yeah I hadn’t factored in there’s more Protoss up those MMRs. Quite a difference if the sucky matchup is 33% of your games on average vs much higher ratios.
I’ve historically hated PvZ from the opposite end, there’s not a huge amount of strategy or counterplay, you’re kind of locked in to whatever plan you’re committing to in the loading screen pretty hard. Not a matchup from either end that aids itself to improvisation and dynamic adjustment of things.
Just a bad patch all round, that specific change anyway. Aside from empowering battery cheeses that are horrible to play against as a Terran, empowering the ability to get to air toss isn’t much fun either.
I’m sure plenty of people like turtling into brutal compositions too, but never been a style I enjoy playing or playing against.
That said I’m not sure it’s possible to have PvZ not suck as a matchup for any extended period of time, when things stabilise anyway. There have been periods where it was decent for short periods, but the Zergs (usually its them) optimise things defensively and Protoss revert to their array of timing attacks.
If this is to be any kind of final patch it’s not ideal that Voids are better now, as map makers have far fewer tools to tweak maps to balance air units given they bypass terrain.
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The funny thing about the above graphs, is that ukko, a Zerg, has like 10-15 accounts in GM at all time. Hes the only one that has that many accounts in GM as far as i know, hes Zerg, and its still least populated race by far.
Its not even just about fun anymore.
Zerg became the hardest race to play in masters/GM level after all the nerfs to creep, banelings, broodlords, hydras, and queen defense. Feedback buff made late game control VERY hard as well.
Zerg is REALLY punished for mistakes now. You need good queen position at all time or youre at the risk of losing your lair in 2 seconds, your 4th in two seconds, etc.
Zerg defender advantage got butchered, and the race feels so much more fragile. Meanwhile, you get freaking protoss who now has the ultimate defender advantage.
Strategic wise, it feels protoss has a HUGE edge.
They have better early game with the variety of canon rush that can happen and unbreakable 2 base wall+ air./battery.
They have more builds, way way way more builds, with lots of transitions that are differents.
They have more all-ins. They have more viable compositions. They have better defender advantage. They have better harass, and their late game is better, while being easier to control.
At this point i feel time will tell us that the ZvP matchup is complete non sense right now.
Zerg pros are already all-inning or losing every game vs toss. Once toss figures how to defend all those all-ins and scout for them ( and i promise all those all--ins are defendable). Protoss will completely destroy zerg.
AT the pro level its not as obvious because there is VERY VERY few progamers, and its been the same ones forever. Theres only like 6-7 competitive protoss, and all the zergs know their style so its a bit easier to find builds against them. But on the ladder, every damn protoss, and theres tons of them, play their own way. All ZvP wins are meta game. Even Serral and Reynor cant beat a top 5 protoss late game.
Hard to decide on a all-in build to do as zerg when you dont know at all how the protoss will open and transition.
There is more than Progaming scene that matters. If noone plays the game , noone watches, and pro scene dies.
Its already starting to show, but I promise anyone reading this that time will show us that protoss is actually way more OP than most think, ESPECIALLY in PvZ. That matchup, if played well from tosss side, is not even winnable on paper.
In my opinion, the only way to fix ZvP without huge overhaul is as follow.
- Buff hydras against air by a LOT. Mass air should not be this strong. Hydras should beat carriers, void rays, and BCs with equal cost. They have less mobility, cant fly, and are vulnerable to t1 units and splash.
-Make it so recall doesnt work on air units.
-Remove abduct from vipers. Broken spell that has made ZvP impossible to balance forever. This will make it so lurkers arent as op against ground toss, since disruptors will be able to do good vs it. Remove mothership, since without abduct it would be to strong to target overseers and have unkillable deathball.
-Buff broodlords speed a little bit, so they can be better versus thors, since abduct is gone. Maybe reduce thor range by 1 again.
Bam. Just that and I feel like not only ZvP, but the game overall would be in a much better place. It would even fix ZvZ mid game and late game. Hydras would be better versus mutas, allowing ground player to attack with roach hydra vs muta player. And late game lurker turtle would be beaten by mass broodlords, since adbuct would be gone.
Bring the game back to the ground, where map terrain, good army movement, and positioning matters.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 29 2021 10:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2021 07:40 InfCereal wrote:On March 29 2021 05:39 WombaT wrote:On March 29 2021 04:37 InfCereal wrote:
Everyone's talking about balance, no one's talking about the fact zerg's are abandoning the game in droves because it's not fun to play.
Yeah, the game is balanced. It's just not fun.
First I’m hearing that the game is particularly unfun for Zergs tbh. Can’t say I’m super on top of forums outside of TL but I can’t see much that’s bad enough to have people abandon the game outside of people who are just burned out on the game, certainly nothing that’s particular awful for any particular race. Really? No one I know likes the current state of the game. Its been discussed in this thread even - every game is a queen walk. (or some timing). The other matchups are fine, but you never actually get them. I can only speak for the masters/gm level, as that's where I am, and that's where my friends are, but if you just look at the stats, it supports what I'm whining about. This is global masters, the red line is somewhere around the voidray patch. And GM We face a disproportionate amount of protoss players, most of them open voidray, and we're going to do a timing because "kill them before they get there". How many times can you scout 2sg void, and just walk queens across the map before you get bored? Most of the people I talk to don't even have loss-y records in zvp. They're just boredIt's the same reason it's not fun that broodlord/infestor in wol wasn't fun. The game was technically balanced (source: aligulac), but god it fucking sucked to play. On top of that, allthingszerg discord is basically a ghost-town nowaday, and it used to be basically the place to be to learn/improve at zerg (imo). Yeah I hadn’t factored in there’s more Protoss up those MMRs. Quite a difference if the sucky matchup is 33% of your games on average vs much higher ratios. I’ve historically hated PvZ from the opposite end, there’s not a huge amount of strategy or counterplay, you’re kind of locked in to whatever plan you’re committing to in the loading screen pretty hard. Not a matchup from either end that aids itself to improvisation and dynamic adjustment of things. Just a bad patch all round, that specific change anyway. Aside from empowering battery cheeses that are horrible to play against as a Terran, empowering the ability to get to air toss isn’t much fun either. I’m sure plenty of people like turtling into brutal compositions too, but never been a style I enjoy playing or playing against. That said I’m not sure it’s possible to have PvZ not suck as a matchup for any extended period of time, when things stabilise anyway. There have been periods where it was decent for short periods, but the Zergs (usually its them) optimise things defensively and Protoss revert to their array of timing attacks. If this is to be any kind of final patch it’s not ideal that Voids are better now, as map makers have far fewer tools to tweak maps to balance air units given they bypass terrain.
I never truly hated the protoss turtle style until now. because before the air wasn't the answer to the mech. But the tempest changed and protoss air is answer to everything. I understand that this doesn't affect the top 5 % of the ladder, but hell I hate playing TvP now.
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maybe Zerg being the strongest race for like 3 years just carried their playerbase and its just the least fun race to play so now that its no longer top1 race uncontested the people that played Zerg because it was op quit 
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On March 29 2021 19:27 Andi_Goldberger wrote:maybe Zerg being the strongest race for like 3 years just carried their playerbase and its just the least fun race to play so now that its no longer top1 race uncontested the people that played Zerg because it was op quit
How do people who write stuff like you do even survive in modern society?
If you have nothing useful to add to the conversation, just don't write.
Those balance threads like this one are a pain to read.
Full of people justifying current balance with "you did this in the past to me, now you have to suffer".
Thats a big reason why society is progressing so slowly. Well reflected in competitive game balance.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 29 2021 19:27 Andi_Goldberger wrote:maybe Zerg being the strongest race for like 3 years just carried their playerbase and its just the least fun race to play so now that its no longer top1 race uncontested the people that played Zerg because it was op quit
The reason why so many zergs leave you can see directly in the GSL right now. Cannon rush into shield batteries into some other shit (stalkers/void rays/immortals). I can't tell more toxic builds than rushes with shield batteries. (IMO)
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On March 29 2021 13:58 Snakestyle11 wrote:
There is more than Progaming scene that matters. If noone plays the game , noone watches, and pro scene dies.
Just to expand on this, we're at the lowest games/day since the game went free to play, at least on EU.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/IZ66URM.png)
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 29 2021 21:17 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2021 13:58 Snakestyle11 wrote:
There is more than Progaming scene that matters. If noone plays the game , noone watches, and pro scene dies.
Just to expand on this, we're at the lowest games/day since the game went free to play, at least on EU.
Well it's not like there's something exciting happening either. Old maps - no new maps announced. The Big Book of Protoss Bullshit has been updated with several new builds which many hate and no balance patch on the horizon. We may see a rise if there are new maps though.
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air units are interesting when they support a ground army (medivacs, raven, mutalisk etc) as soon as you can mass them the game become uninteresting (broodlord infestor, skytoss, raven / bcs) and dull. I miss the fact that terrain is not a big deal in sc2, when you see units killing production facility of the main from the low ground i find that a bit odd a bonus from higher ground you should exist in my opinion
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On March 29 2021 21:25 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2021 21:17 InfCereal wrote:On March 29 2021 13:58 Snakestyle11 wrote:
There is more than Progaming scene that matters. If noone plays the game , noone watches, and pro scene dies.
Just to expand on this, we're at the lowest games/day since the game went free to play, at least on EU. Well it's not like there's something exciting happening either. Old maps - no new maps announced. The Big Book of Protoss Bullshit has been updated with several new builds which many hate and no balance patch on the horizon. We may see a rise if there are new maps though.
look at the top of the page the API is not returning the right data so the graph is completely pointless for a couple of weeks
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8748 Posts
i think proxy shield batteries should be nerfed. shield batteries are already flagged for being in range of overcharge or not in range of overcharge. make it so being out of range of overcharge reduces the rate of healing and also reduces the efficiency (so same cost but reduce the healing per tick). this would also affect defensive shield batteries on some maps.
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On March 29 2021 20:28 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2021 19:27 Andi_Goldberger wrote:maybe Zerg being the strongest race for like 3 years just carried their playerbase and its just the least fun race to play so now that its no longer top1 race uncontested the people that played Zerg because it was op quit The reason why so many zergs leave you can see directly in the GSL right now. Cannon rush into shield batteries into some other shit (stalkers/void rays/immortals). I can't tell more toxic builds than rushes with shield batteries. (IMO)
SC2 is game over for Zerg from now on. There is nothing to discuss. Take it or leave it or play protoss yourself. In Korea probably Zergs players will fully vanish from top 16. Maybe those few super talents from EU who happen to be Z will continue to play.
Dustin Browder C&C style of the game has never been eliminated and is going to stay.
It seriously would be a better game with just one race like in WC2: Lets pick the best designed race, which is terran and call it a day.
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On March 29 2021 21:17 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2021 13:58 Snakestyle11 wrote:
There is more than Progaming scene that matters. If noone plays the game , noone watches, and pro scene dies.
Just to expand on this, we're at the lowest games/day since the game went free to play, at least on EU.
No, this happens because right now the API doesnt return stats for EU, that's why the number drop so drastically ( already happened in the past ).
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EPT
