Been a while since last balance patch
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kingism
25 Posts
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Blargh
United States2074 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1793 Posts
You can not really demand a balance patch as well. That would require overtime and I do not think Bobby Kotick can afford to pay him extra for that. | ||
InfCereal
Canada1740 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On March 27 2021 17:03 kingism wrote: Hey guys, just curious but will there ever be another balance patch? I know blizzard removed the SC team last year. Certain matchups may need some small tweaks to keep the game fun. All blizzard said was that they wouldn't do a new patch before Katowice 2021. Now, all we can do is guess as to whether there will come another patch and whether they will change the ladder maps. | ||
ytherik
199 Posts
On March 27 2021 17:24 Blargh wrote: I honestly don't think this employee role exists any more, so I'm guessing no... It's map balance from here on out, I believe. Are you implying we are going to get new ladder maps? That's very hopeful! | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On March 27 2021 21:17 sneakyfox wrote: All blizzard said was that they wouldn't do a new patch before Katowice 2021 That was before we found out that the team was disbanded/restructured though right? Realistically, what's going to happen is they may outsource map making to ESL/TLMC eventually, and they'll just keep the servers online and call it a day. We're definitely not seeing a new balance patch imo. PvZ especially may be as boring as ever but honestly it's impossible to make that matchup interesting without a major redesign of both P and Z, and that will never happen. | ||
Goma
Germany15 Posts
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ytherik
199 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1793 Posts
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kingism
25 Posts
I can find flaws in every matchup as nothing is ever perfect. Would be great to have some small changes just to spice things up a bit, since the meta seems so figured out that recent games are just very predictable, which imo is less fun for spectators. | ||
Vision_
712 Posts
1) they could also think to make map with long distance mining, it could be fun but Zerg favored... 2) also units hidden in bushes could provides bonus against range attacks 3) avoid multi cast with rapid-fire (add cooldown) That s a ton of funny work | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20734 Posts
On March 28 2021 00:06 Vision_ wrote: the only real patch would consist to go a step behind, removing stimpack and rebalance everything around what sc2 was made, an intensive apm game. 1) they could also think to make map with long distance mining, it could be fun but Zerg favored... 2) also ground could provides bonus to units hidden in bushes A skeleton crew is arguably not going to be able to make minor tweaks, never mind considerable design overhauls. | ||
ThunderJunk
United States577 Posts
Nowadays I pretty much just support the post-industrial Detroit that is the Broodwar scene. At least they still get new maps in the map pool each season. | ||
JJH777
United States4283 Posts
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Legan
Finland280 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On March 27 2021 19:55 InfCereal wrote: Vicarious Visions is handling SC2 (along with all the other legacy products), so there are people around that can hypothetically do it. Vicarious Visions is potentially allegedly involved based on that article, but it's mostly just speculation--we don't actually know who if anyone handles SCII. | ||
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On March 27 2021 22:28 Teoita wrote: That was before we found out that the team was disbanded/restructured though right? iirc, it was in the same announcement where they said they're basically shutting down the SC2 department. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 28 2021 01:41 JJH777 wrote: This is the best balance has been since before the 2017 Hydra patch so I'm at least relieved it didn't happen until now. If they had stopped balancing anytime before this we would be stuck in a never ending Zerg nightmare. Yeah because nowadays Zergs are not winning the majority of tournaments. It's just coincidence that so many good players are zergs I mean c'mon, zergs are world champions for such a short time now. | ||
FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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404AlphaSquad
838 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 28 2021 03:15 FabledIntegral wrote: I quit playing after all the ZvP became mass void ray. Balance be damned, it's not a fun playstyle to face (air toss in general). All for nerfs to Z (ie. Lurkers) that get P to a (typically) ground based late game. It;s not fun to face protoss air in TvP either. Like the game is in its worse state since BL infestor and damn the balance, it's not fun to play nor wathc. I mean - c'mon, queen walk? Epic play there! What a micro god! Oh, and them maps old 9 and 6 months. | ||
Blargh
United States2074 Posts
On March 28 2021 03:33 404AlphaSquad wrote: I have the feeling that at this point, sc2 is just like BW abandonware for Blizzard. Can you call it abandonware when they supported it for 10 years, most of which weren't profitable? I'm pretty satisfied with SC2's life. It may have never achieved LoL status, but it never would've... | ||
MrShankly
United Kingdom370 Posts
On March 27 2021 22:28 Teoita wrote: That was before we found out that the team was disbanded/restructured though right? Realistically, what's going to happen is they may outsource map making to ESL/TLMC eventually, and they'll just keep the servers online and call it a day. We're definitely not seeing a new balance patch imo. PvZ especially may be as boring as ever but honestly it's impossible to make that matchup interesting without a major redesign of both P and Z, and that will never happen. That would be cool. Does that also allow us to have some form of balance patch? I don't really follow sc2 map making much - but I think map makers can change unit stats for custom maps. Does that also work in ladder play? | ||
AxiomB
69 Posts
I am happy we still have a highly entertaining and competitive SC2 scene. In Zerg we have Serral, Rogue, Dark, Reynor (all amazing players with the potential to win tournies). In Protoss we have Stats, sOs, Zoun and Zest (all geniuses in their race and capable of taking home trophies) and in Terran we have Maru, TY, Cure, Clem and Innovation (all proven champs with the skill to demolish their opponents). Also there are the 30+ deep pool of other SC2 players nipping at these guy's heels. ALL UNDER THE CURRENT PATCH AND MAPS. THEREFORE; the game is in a great state at the pro level, all the major tournies are stacked and extremely hard to call. GSL hype!!!!!! | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 28 2021 16:15 Blargh wrote: Can you call it abandonware when they supported it for 10 years, most of which weren't profitable? I'm pretty satisfied with SC2's life. It may have never achieved LoL status, but it never would've... Yes. Abandonware is a abandoned software. Although I would't call any SC that way because there are still ways to buy it and run it legally. As a good example of abandonware can be Aliens vs Predators 2 and Need for Speed High Stakes. The first is and will be untouched because of the copyrights ownership nightmare and the latter because I have no idea. (I mean you can purchase another OST considering the rights ran out, can't you? EA? billions of USDs?) Edit> Abandonware has nothing to do about how long the game was supported. It's all about the current state. | ||
LSN
Germany696 Posts
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Beelzebub1
997 Posts
On March 28 2021 20:09 AxiomB wrote: Patch or no patch, new maps or no new maps; I am happy we still have a highly entertaining and competitive SC2 scene. In Zerg we have Serral, Rogue, Dark, Reynor (all amazing players with the potential to win tournies). In Protoss we have Stats, sOs, Zoun and Zest (all geniuses in their race and capable of taking home trophies) and in Terran we have Maru, TY, Cure, Clem and Innovation (all proven champs with the skill to demolish their opponents). Also there are the 30+ deep pool of other SC2 players nipping at these guy's heels. ALL UNDER THE CURRENT PATCH AND MAPS. THEREFORE; the game is in a great state at the pro level, all the major tournies are stacked and extremely hard to call. GSL hype!!!!!! This is pretty much my thought process on the matter, I don't even trust who is left at Blizzard to be qualified and have the game/meta knowledge to make balance changes that would positively impact the game. Aligulac has Protoss kind of a bit strong at the top level and Terran falling off a bit, but that's just the nature of the beast with this game, a perfect 50/50 balance ratio across the board is almost impossible to maintain. | ||
Beelzebub1
997 Posts
On March 28 2021 23:44 LSN wrote: The only decent decision to do at this point would be to remove/disallow Protoss and Zerg from ladder and tournaments and make it a TvT only game. TvT is probably more fun to play and watch than PvZ, PvT and PvT. Uh. no. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 29 2021 00:29 Beelzebub1 wrote: This is pretty much my thought process on the matter, I don't even trust who is left at Blizzard to be qualified and have the game/meta knowledge to make balance changes that would positively impact the game. Aligulac has Protoss kind of a bit strong at the top level and Terran falling off a bit, but that's just the nature of the beast with this game, a perfect 50/50 balance ratio across the board is almost impossible to maintain. I reiterate my point - what's the point of a balanced game when it's ugly to watch? Out of all their flaws, the good ol' swarm hosts were balanced at the top level. Although I agree that it's a design issue,. having a balanced game when it's ugly is meh at best. | ||
Comedy
401 Posts
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Beelzebub1
997 Posts
On March 29 2021 02:06 deacon.frost wrote: I reiterate my point - what's the point of a balanced game when it's ugly to watch? Out of all their flaws, the good ol' swarm hosts were balanced at the top level. Although I agree that it's a design issue,. having a balanced game when it's ugly is meh at best. I mean what's so ugly besides Skytoss openers being the new go to in PvZ? I don't even think it's been fully fleshed out at this point because some Protoss seem so fragile with it and others look solid as a rock. I find it fascinating after all this time how the metagame still seems to shift in PvZ while it seems more or less figured out in TvZ. Personally though, I could stand to see Lurkers take a hit with the nerf bat, they seem to do just an absolute insane amount of damage and are quite durable and nimble, Adaptive Talons should just be removed from the game, it removes one of the key weaknesses of the unit for no real apparent reason. | ||
Athenau
555 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 29 2021 02:49 Beelzebub1 wrote: I mean what's so ugly besides Skytoss openers being the new go to in PvZ? I don't even think it's been fully fleshed out at this point because some Protoss seem so fragile with it and others look solid as a rock. I find it fascinating after all this time how the metagame still seems to shift in PvZ while it seems more or less figured out in TvZ. Personally though, I could stand to see Lurkers take a hit with the nerf bat, they seem to do just an absolute insane amount of damage and are quite durable and nimble, Adaptive Talons should just be removed from the game, it removes one of the key weaknesses of the unit for no real apparent reason. Queen walk never really happened. Long range instaburrow lurkers into sieged siege tanks. WTF?! There you have 2 examples. | ||
Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On March 29 2021 02:49 Beelzebub1 wrote: Personally though, I could stand to see Lurkers take a hit with the nerf bat, they seem to do just an absolute insane amount of damage and are quite durable and nimble, Adaptive Talons should just be removed from the game, it removes one of the key weaknesses of the unit for no real apparent reason. Yeah, I agree. Though really it could be either one of the two upgrades to go. Lurkers with more range but slower is manageable (something like tempests). Similarly, fast but lower range is also manageable since you can at least outrange them with storm, colossus, or disruptors. With both upgrades, a critical mass of lurkers is almost uncounterable on the ground for protoss. They can't be stormed (and storm barely hurts them), can't be outranged by colossus, and can unburrow and move quickly enough to dodge disruptor shots. At least Terran has snipe against the I suppose. Protoss having air be as strong as it is right now is almost a necessity because without it, mass lurker/spore/viper/queen would be almost unbeatable. I'd be fine with void rays being toned down on condition lurkers are also weakened a bit. Both units are a bit too good right now but making one weaker without also dealing with the other will skew PvZ to whichever one wasn't nerfed. Of course, the chance of any of this happening is slim to none, but one can dream I guess? edit: Queen walk strategies are a lot more complicated. On the one hand, they're really silly to watch and seem like something that was never intended to be part of the game. On the other hand, these strategies are counterable if scouted and the threat of them is almost necessary to exist because of the current state of void rays. The other thing is that queen walks are quite map-dependent. On some maps the strategy is very strong (Pillars of Gold) while on others it's basically useless (Deathaura being one). Map design could be used to handle queen walks in the same way it was used to partly deal with blink all-ins. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 29 2021 03:33 Ben... wrote: Yeah, I agree. Though really it could be either one of the two upgrades to go. Lurkers with more range but slower is manageable (something like tempests). Similarly, fast but lower range is also manageable since you can at least outrange them with storm, colossus, or disruptors. With both upgrades, a critical mass of lurkers is almost uncounterable on the ground for protoss. They can't be stormed (and storm barely hurts them), can't be outranged by colossus, and can unburrow and move quickly enough to dodge disruptor shots. At least Terran has snipe against the I suppose. Protoss having air be as strong as it is right now is almost a necessity because without it, mass lurker/spore/viper/queen would be almost unbeatable. I'd be fine with void rays being toned down on condition lurkers are also weakened a bit. Both units are a bit too good right now but making one weaker without also dealing with the other will skew PvZ to whichever one wasn't nerfed. Of course, the chance of any of this happening is slim to none, but one can dream I guess? edit: Queen walk strategies are a lot more complicated. On the one hand, they're really silly to watch and seem like something that was never intended to be part of the game. On the other hand, these strategies are counterable if scouted and the threat of them is almost necessary to exist because of the current state of void rays. The other thing is that queen walks are quite map-dependent. On some maps the strategy is very strong (Pillars of Gold) while on others it's basically useless (Deathaura being one). Map design could be used to handle queen walks in the same way it was used to partly deal with blink all-ins. In the meantime Harstem on his YOutube says, that if Protoss opens air you just queen walk to victory. I take Harstem over you, no offense. (if i wasn't that lazy and havent seen that many of his videos I would provide even source) | ||
InfCereal
Canada1740 Posts
Yeah, the game is balanced. It's just not fun. | ||
Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On March 29 2021 04:03 deacon.frost wrote: In the meantime Harstem on his YOutube says, that if Protoss opens air you just queen walk to victory. I take Harstem over you, no offense. (if i wasn't that lazy and havent seen that many of his videos I would provide even source) He said that like a month ago. I watch his channel regularly I've seen the videos where he talked about it. He even did a video where he did the strategy while playing and talked about in the last week. Even he has pointed out the map-dependent nature of the strength of the queen walk. On maps like Pillars of Gold or Jagannatha, Zerg takes the forward third and walks from there, which massively shortens the amount of time it takes for the queen to walk across the map. On maps where there isn't a forward third or the rush distance is much longer, it takes longer for the queens to walk so the build is weaker. Artosis talked a bit about queen walks on the latest GSL too and mentioned this also. Like a month or two ago? Yeah queen walks looked almost impossible to beat because it was brand new and in the meta every protoss was going double Stargate void ray, which queen walk counters. But now we are seeing pros getting better at stopping it, either by doing other builds on maps queen walks are strong on, or by looking for the tells that the build is happening and transitioning into something else than can have a better chance of beating it. That's not to say I like the build though. I think as a build the queen walk is dumb and not something I would want in the game. It's never easy to tell what's going on because of all the spells being casted. On the maps where it's good it's also obnoxiously hard to hold off and is one of those things where either protoss has the exact composition to hold it, or just dies. But queen walk exists to counter passive double stargate builds, which I think is a good thing. Double stargate into storm often ended up in very passive games where not a lot happened for a long time. Harstem did a guide for double stargate into storm that showed this pretty well. You could literally just go double stargate and rush storm behind cannons and batteries and zerg couldn't really ever attack in so they also had to play passively. Queen walk with ravagers turned out to be the thing that could hit before a critical mass of storm and protoss air was out. Without this build, every PvZ BO3 was about to be over an hour long where nothing happened for a good chunk of it. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20734 Posts
On March 29 2021 04:03 deacon.frost wrote: In the meantime Harstem on his YOutube says, that if Protoss opens air you just queen walk to victory. I take Harstem over you, no offense. (if i wasn't that lazy and havent seen that many of his videos I would provide even source) I’m not sure Harstem said that, specifically anyway. Queen walks kill 2 SG void into sky toss pretty nastily yeah, they don’t fare particularly well against all sorts of other stuff, why we’re seeing a lot of mind game fake 2 SG plays recently, Hurricane v Rag in Code A recently being an example of that. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20734 Posts
On March 29 2021 04:37 InfCereal wrote: Everyone's talking about balance, no one's talking about the fact zerg's are abandoning the game in droves because it's not fun to play. Yeah, the game is balanced. It's just not fun. First I’m hearing that the game is particularly unfun for Zergs tbh. Can’t say I’m super on top of forums outside of TL but I can’t see much that’s bad enough to have people abandon the game outside of people who are just burned out on the game, certainly nothing that’s particular awful for any particular race. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 29 2021 05:34 WombaT wrote: I’m not sure Harstem said that, specifically anyway. Queen walks kill 2 SG void into sky toss pretty nastily yeah, they don’t fare particularly well against all sorts of other stuff, why we’re seeing a lot of mind game fake 2 SG plays recently, Hurricane v Rag in Code A recently being an example of that. He may have gone wild for them Youtube clicks, who knows. That's what he said and no, it wasn't about 2 SG, he said if there's a VR and an oracle, it's a win. He wasn't exactly map specific but I guess there are maps where this is much worse situation. Like look, I don't care if it's FUBAR or not, I care about the fact it's boring and stupid, queens are supposed to be defensive units and if you want to transport them they should go via nydus or ovies, not off creep slowly marching to the victory. NOt that you mass queens and roaches and move to the other side to go YOLO. Edit> But anyway, it;s pointless, in the end we may have new maps, but for sure we won't get SC2 updated so the stupid stuff(which may be balanced, but so far doesn't seem so) will be updated. Because Blizzard said - here you have buffed VR, shield batteries and we know Has and Rotti will go wild and you all will love it on the ladder, so cya in the Mobile Starcraft!~ Edit2> Also I don't get this balance talk. We may get the last balance patch, we should focus on fun and playability instead of "balance", again, swormhosts were balanced. They were trash to play against. It doesn't matter if these tactics are balanced, they trash and people hate to play against them and many even hate to see them in pro matches. FFS if we wanna get something get us somethign we won't leave because we get annoyed beyond reasonable level. And honestly, once i stop playing I stop watching, because what's the point. And I really don't want to do that, but the current status ties my hands. | ||
Beelzebub1
997 Posts
On March 29 2021 06:45 deacon.frost wrote: He may have gone wild for them Youtube clicks, who knows. That's what he said and no, it wasn't about 2 SG, he said if there's a VR and an oracle, it's a win. He wasn't exactly map specific but I guess there are maps where this is much worse situation. Like look, I don't care if it's FUBAR or not, I care about the fact it's boring and stupid, queens are supposed to be defensive units and if you want to transport them they should go via nydus or ovies, not off creep slowly marching to the victory. NOt that you mass queens and roaches and move to the other side to go YOLO. Edit> But anyway, it;s pointless, in the end we may have new maps, but for sure we won't get SC2 updated so the stupid stuff(which may be balanced, but so far doesn't seem so) will be updated. Because Blizzard said - here you have buffed VR, shield batteries and we know Has and Rotti will go wild and you all will love it on the ladder, so cya in the Mobile Starcraft!~ Edit2> Also I don't get this balance talk. We may get the last balance patch, we should focus on fun and playability instead of "balance", again, swormhosts were balanced. They were trash to play against. It doesn't matter if these tactics are balanced, they trash and people hate to play against them and many even hate to see them in pro matches. FFS if we wanna get something get us somethign we won't leave because we get annoyed beyond reasonable level. And honestly, once i stop playing I stop watching, because what's the point. And I really don't want to do that, but the current status ties my hands. Ultimately I do agree to a point, a small balance patch here and there to tone down some obviously OP units like the Lurker probably wouldn't be for the worst imo Really wouldn't even mind Bile not negating FF either, seems like a thing that sounded great when LOTV came out and now it's just too strong and invalidates the sentry too much. Terran looks to be struggling a bit in TvZ at the moment, could be a shift in the meta but it could be a more long lasting issue. | ||
InfCereal
Canada1740 Posts
On March 29 2021 05:39 WombaT wrote: First I’m hearing that the game is particularly unfun for Zergs tbh. Can’t say I’m super on top of forums outside of TL but I can’t see much that’s bad enough to have people abandon the game outside of people who are just burned out on the game, certainly nothing that’s particular awful for any particular race. Really? No one I know likes the current state of the game. Its been discussed in this thread even - every game is a queen walk. (or some timing). The other matchups are fine, but you never actually get them. I can only speak for the masters/gm level, as that's where I am, and that's where my friends are, but if you just look at the stats, it supports what I'm whining about. This is global masters, the red line is somewhere around the voidray patch. And GM We face a disproportionate amount of protoss players, most of them open voidray, and we're going to do a timing because "kill them before they get there". How many times can you scout 2sg void, and just walk queens across the map before you get bored? Most of the people I talk to don't even have loss-y records in zvp. They're just bored It's the same reason it's not fun that broodlord/infestor in wol wasn't fun. The game was technically balanced (source: aligulac), but god it fucking sucked to play. On top of that, allthingszerg discord is basically a ghost-town nowaday, and it used to be basically the place to be to learn/improve at zerg (imo). | ||
Athenau
555 Posts
It's the same reason it's not fun that broodlord/infestor in wol wasn't fun. The game was technically balanced (source: aligulac), but god it fucking sucked to play. Broodlord/Infestor was absolutely not balanced according to Aligulac. | ||
InfCereal
Canada1740 Posts
On March 29 2021 08:06 Athenau wrote: Broodlord/Infestor was absolutely not balanced according to Aligulac. The last tick before HOTS is 49.54% PvT, 45.62% PvZ, 45.09% TvZ. +/- 5% is pretty well balanced. Obviously skewed in zerg's favor, but in what is widely regarded as the worst period of the game, zerg was only winning 5 more games out of 100. Like, it's pretty good. Overall, starcraft 2 has been remarkably balanced. Almost all of the issues with SC2 have been design, not balance. For perspective, the most imbalanced periods of the game were closer to 10%, at hots release, patch 3.8, and lotv release. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 29 2021 08:06 Athenau wrote: Broodlord/Infestor was absolutely not balanced according to Aligulac. Technically it doesn't matter and I dare to say that if Blizzard would have left it for another 3 months it would have balanced. At the time I was a pure Protoss player so no idea how ZvZ/TvZ went, but at PvZ MC was using a strategy with storm, archons, colossi, void rays, carriers and moma ship. And he was quite successful with it and it appeared that this is the composition which can beat the BL/Infestor nonsense quite reliably. (apart from the 3base +3 colossus timing, but I am not sure if that wasn't figured out by zergs at the end of WoL) I would like to say that MC didn't rely on the archon toilet. To be fair it's not surprising it was winning, I believe it was the most expensive army you could have gone for at that time. Edit> Oh, yeah, why it doesn't matter - because it was boring to watch, boring to play against and IMO boring to play with. Which resulted more or less in angrying everybody. In other words - balance didn't matter while it helped for the cry to patch it out. | ||
Athenau
555 Posts
On March 29 2021 08:27 InfCereal wrote: The last tick before HOTS is 49.54% PvT, 45.62% PvZ, 45.09% TvZ. +/- 5% is pretty well balanced. Obviously skewed in zerg's favor, but in what is widely regarded as the worst period of the game, zerg was only winning 5 more games out of 100. Like, it's pretty good. Overall, starcraft 2 has been remarkably balanced. Almost all of the issues with SC2 have been design, not balance. For perspective, the most imbalanced periods of the game were closer to 10%, at hots release, patch 3.8, and lotv release. Peak Broodlord-Infestor started from patch 1.4.3 (the infamous Queen patch) to HotS. In those 11 months TvZ dipped as low as 42.93%(with seven months below 45%) and PvZ as low as 45.62%. A single month of 45% winrates might be considered barely acceptable, but almost a year of that sort of imbalance was and is atrocious. The raw winrates didn't tell the whole story, you can see the massive rating swings in favor of Zerg players all throughout 2012, which is quite something since that metric is supposed to reach an equilibrium, but it didn't, even after a prolonged period of time with no balance changes. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20734 Posts
On March 29 2021 07:40 InfCereal wrote: Really? No one I know likes the current state of the game. Its been discussed in this thread even - every game is a queen walk. (or some timing). The other matchups are fine, but you never actually get them. I can only speak for the masters/gm level, as that's where I am, and that's where my friends are, but if you just look at the stats, it supports what I'm whining about. This is global masters, the red line is somewhere around the voidray patch. And GM We face a disproportionate amount of protoss players, most of them open voidray, and we're going to do a timing because "kill them before they get there". How many times can you scout 2sg void, and just walk queens across the map before you get bored? Most of the people I talk to don't even have loss-y records in zvp. They're just bored It's the same reason it's not fun that broodlord/infestor in wol wasn't fun. The game was technically balanced (source: aligulac), but god it fucking sucked to play. On top of that, allthingszerg discord is basically a ghost-town nowaday, and it used to be basically the place to be to learn/improve at zerg (imo). Yeah I hadn’t factored in there’s more Protoss up those MMRs. Quite a difference if the sucky matchup is 33% of your games on average vs much higher ratios. I’ve historically hated PvZ from the opposite end, there’s not a huge amount of strategy or counterplay, you’re kind of locked in to whatever plan you’re committing to in the loading screen pretty hard. Not a matchup from either end that aids itself to improvisation and dynamic adjustment of things. Just a bad patch all round, that specific change anyway. Aside from empowering battery cheeses that are horrible to play against as a Terran, empowering the ability to get to air toss isn’t much fun either. I’m sure plenty of people like turtling into brutal compositions too, but never been a style I enjoy playing or playing against. That said I’m not sure it’s possible to have PvZ not suck as a matchup for any extended period of time, when things stabilise anyway. There have been periods where it was decent for short periods, but the Zergs (usually its them) optimise things defensively and Protoss revert to their array of timing attacks. If this is to be any kind of final patch it’s not ideal that Voids are better now, as map makers have far fewer tools to tweak maps to balance air units given they bypass terrain. | ||
Snakestyle11
191 Posts
Its not even just about fun anymore. Zerg became the hardest race to play in masters/GM level after all the nerfs to creep, banelings, broodlords, hydras, and queen defense. Feedback buff made late game control VERY hard as well. Zerg is REALLY punished for mistakes now. You need good queen position at all time or youre at the risk of losing your lair in 2 seconds, your 4th in two seconds, etc. Zerg defender advantage got butchered, and the race feels so much more fragile. Meanwhile, you get freaking protoss who now has the ultimate defender advantage. Strategic wise, it feels protoss has a HUGE edge. They have better early game with the variety of canon rush that can happen and unbreakable 2 base wall+ air./battery. They have more builds, way way way more builds, with lots of transitions that are differents. They have more all-ins. They have more viable compositions. They have better defender advantage. They have better harass, and their late game is better, while being easier to control. At this point i feel time will tell us that the ZvP matchup is complete non sense right now. Zerg pros are already all-inning or losing every game vs toss. Once toss figures how to defend all those all-ins and scout for them ( and i promise all those all--ins are defendable). Protoss will completely destroy zerg. AT the pro level its not as obvious because there is VERY VERY few progamers, and its been the same ones forever. Theres only like 6-7 competitive protoss, and all the zergs know their style so its a bit easier to find builds against them. But on the ladder, every damn protoss, and theres tons of them, play their own way. All ZvP wins are meta game. Even Serral and Reynor cant beat a top 5 protoss late game. Hard to decide on a all-in build to do as zerg when you dont know at all how the protoss will open and transition. There is more than Progaming scene that matters. If noone plays the game , noone watches, and pro scene dies. Its already starting to show, but I promise anyone reading this that time will show us that protoss is actually way more OP than most think, ESPECIALLY in PvZ. That matchup, if played well from tosss side, is not even winnable on paper. In my opinion, the only way to fix ZvP without huge overhaul is as follow. - Buff hydras against air by a LOT. Mass air should not be this strong. Hydras should beat carriers, void rays, and BCs with equal cost. They have less mobility, cant fly, and are vulnerable to t1 units and splash. -Make it so recall doesnt work on air units. -Remove abduct from vipers. Broken spell that has made ZvP impossible to balance forever. This will make it so lurkers arent as op against ground toss, since disruptors will be able to do good vs it. Remove mothership, since without abduct it would be to strong to target overseers and have unkillable deathball. -Buff broodlords speed a little bit, so they can be better versus thors, since abduct is gone. Maybe reduce thor range by 1 again. Bam. Just that and I feel like not only ZvP, but the game overall would be in a much better place. It would even fix ZvZ mid game and late game. Hydras would be better versus mutas, allowing ground player to attack with roach hydra vs muta player. And late game lurker turtle would be beaten by mass broodlords, since adbuct would be gone. Bring the game back to the ground, where map terrain, good army movement, and positioning matters. - | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 29 2021 10:05 WombaT wrote: Yeah I hadn’t factored in there’s more Protoss up those MMRs. Quite a difference if the sucky matchup is 33% of your games on average vs much higher ratios. I’ve historically hated PvZ from the opposite end, there’s not a huge amount of strategy or counterplay, you’re kind of locked in to whatever plan you’re committing to in the loading screen pretty hard. Not a matchup from either end that aids itself to improvisation and dynamic adjustment of things. Just a bad patch all round, that specific change anyway. Aside from empowering battery cheeses that are horrible to play against as a Terran, empowering the ability to get to air toss isn’t much fun either. I’m sure plenty of people like turtling into brutal compositions too, but never been a style I enjoy playing or playing against. That said I’m not sure it’s possible to have PvZ not suck as a matchup for any extended period of time, when things stabilise anyway. There have been periods where it was decent for short periods, but the Zergs (usually its them) optimise things defensively and Protoss revert to their array of timing attacks. If this is to be any kind of final patch it’s not ideal that Voids are better now, as map makers have far fewer tools to tweak maps to balance air units given they bypass terrain. I never truly hated the protoss turtle style until now. because before the air wasn't the answer to the mech. But the tempest changed and protoss air is answer to everything. I understand that this doesn't affect the top 5 % of the ladder, but hell I hate playing TvP now. | ||
Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Haku
Germany545 Posts
On March 29 2021 19:27 Andi_Goldberger wrote: maybe Zerg being the strongest race for like 3 years just carried their playerbase and its just the least fun race to play so now that its no longer top1 race uncontested the people that played Zerg because it was op quit How do people who write stuff like you do even survive in modern society? If you have nothing useful to add to the conversation, just don't write. Those balance threads like this one are a pain to read. Full of people justifying current balance with "you did this in the past to me, now you have to suffer". Thats a big reason why society is progressing so slowly. Well reflected in competitive game balance. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 29 2021 19:27 Andi_Goldberger wrote: maybe Zerg being the strongest race for like 3 years just carried their playerbase and its just the least fun race to play so now that its no longer top1 race uncontested the people that played Zerg because it was op quit The reason why so many zergs leave you can see directly in the GSL right now. Cannon rush into shield batteries into some other shit (stalkers/void rays/immortals). I can't tell more toxic builds than rushes with shield batteries. (IMO) | ||
InfCereal
Canada1740 Posts
On March 29 2021 13:58 Snakestyle11 wrote: There is more than Progaming scene that matters. If noone plays the game , noone watches, and pro scene dies. Just to expand on this, we're at the lowest games/day since the game went free to play, at least on EU. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 29 2021 21:17 InfCereal wrote: Just to expand on this, we're at the lowest games/day since the game went free to play, at least on EU. Well it's not like there's something exciting happening either. Old maps - no new maps announced. The Big Book of Protoss Bullshit has been updated with several new builds which many hate and no balance patch on the horizon. We may see a rise if there are new maps though. | ||
Sim999
39 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On March 29 2021 21:25 deacon.frost wrote: Well it's not like there's something exciting happening either. Old maps - no new maps announced. The Big Book of Protoss Bullshit has been updated with several new builds which many hate and no balance patch on the horizon. We may see a rise if there are new maps though. look at the top of the page the API is not returning the right data so the graph is completely pointless for a couple of weeks | ||
NonY
8716 Posts
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On March 29 2021 20:28 deacon.frost wrote: The reason why so many zergs leave you can see directly in the GSL right now. Cannon rush into shield batteries into some other shit (stalkers/void rays/immortals). I can't tell more toxic builds than rushes with shield batteries. (IMO) SC2 is game over for Zerg from now on. There is nothing to discuss. Take it or leave it or play protoss yourself. In Korea probably Zergs players will fully vanish from top 16. Maybe those few super talents from EU who happen to be Z will continue to play. Dustin Browder C&C style of the game has never been eliminated and is going to stay. It seriously would be a better game with just one race like in WC2: Lets pick the best designed race, which is terran and call it a day. | ||
Crozo64
64 Posts
On March 29 2021 21:17 InfCereal wrote: Just to expand on this, we're at the lowest games/day since the game went free to play, at least on EU. No, this happens because right now the API doesnt return stats for EU, that's why the number drop so drastically ( already happened in the past ). | ||
InfCereal
Canada1740 Posts
On March 30 2021 01:45 Crozo64 wrote: No, this happens because right now the API doesnt return stats for EU, that's why the number drop so drastically ( already happened in the past ). Oh that's a good catch. Thought they fixed that | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 30 2021 01:12 NonY wrote: i think proxy shield batteries should be nerfed. shield batteries are already flagged for being in range of overcharge or not in range of overcharge. make it so being out of range of overcharge reduces the rate of healing and also reduces the efficiency (so same cost but reduce the healing per tick). this would also affect defensive shield batteries on some maps. After offensive pylons we have offensive shield batteries and offensive queens. And Blizzard won't touch the game. They really knew the highest place to leave the game | ||
NonY
8716 Posts
On March 30 2021 01:58 deacon.frost wrote: After offensive pylons we have offensive shield batteries and offensive queens. And Blizzard won't touch the game. They really knew the highest place to leave the game i think there are some tweaks they could make to help with the game without ruining what's good about the game. the main problem with the game right now is the strategies people are choosing to play. such a high amount of cheese and all-ins. it's not necessarily a problem with the game itself. but some tweaks would change the way people play without drastically changing the game | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20734 Posts
On March 30 2021 01:12 NonY wrote: i think proxy shield batteries should be nerfed. shield batteries are already flagged for being in range of overcharge or not in range of overcharge. make it so being out of range of overcharge reduces the rate of healing and also reduces the efficiency (so same cost but reduce the healing per tick). this would also affect defensive shield batteries on some maps. That would make sense, you could still employ some aggressive cheeses but the execution difficulty between attacker and defender would be made a bit more forgiving for the latter. Some funky all-ins should be there in an RTS for variety’s sake, so not something I’d want removed entirely by any means. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 30 2021 02:10 NonY wrote: i think there are some tweaks they could make to help with the game without ruining what's good about the game. the main problem with the game right now is the strategies people are choosing to play. such a high amount of cheese and all-ins. it's not necessarily a problem with the game itself. but some tweaks would change the way people play without drastically changing the game I hope they do. Thanks for the input! | ||
Monochromatic
United States986 Posts
On March 30 2021 02:10 NonY wrote: i think there are some tweaks they could make to help with the game without ruining what's good about the game. the main problem with the game right now is the strategies people are choosing to play. such a high amount of cheese and all-ins. it's not necessarily a problem with the game itself. but some tweaks would change the way people play without drastically changing the game Do you think more 4 player maps would reduce the amount of cheese? | ||
LHK
204 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 30 2021 12:40 Monochromatic wrote: Do you think more 4 player maps would reduce the amount of cheese? 4p maps without forced spawns or revealed spawns IMO create more cheese because scouting is harder. Especially with 12worker start. But I'm not Nony | ||
iMECH_KolosS
Canada61 Posts
On March 30 2021 17:28 deacon.frost wrote: 4p maps without forced spawns or revealed spawns IMO create more cheese because scouting is harder. Especially with 12worker start. But I'm not Nony I have to disagree regarding the 4 player map creating more cheeses. To me, the undisclosed starting location inhibits some cheeses depending on map layout and rush distances of course. I think a well designed 4p map will reduce the use of proxy gateways, proxy voids w/shield battery (yes protoss are cheesy bastards sometimes ;-) ) and proxy barracks to name a few. Also, I kind of like the idea the distance to opponent is not the same in cross spawn vs close spawn and could affect harassing options/decisions, much like in broodwar. At least 4p (IMO) makes cheesing more risky for the cheeser I think. For instance, I like the 4 player map Nautilus that replaced submarine in Season 1 of the 2021 GSL. I also liked Frost as a 4 player map and according to liquipedia numbers it seemed to be 50% winrate roughly for each matchup. EDIT: I'm not saying this at it was a defined fact. But I think the game would benefit from putting 4 player maps back into the map pool as the gameplay is a bit different from when they were common on the ladder. If they tried 1 or 2, people could try them out and VETO them if they just don't like them or if they have too much variance. | ||
Vision_
712 Posts
you only lose about 60 minerals to scout your opponent... That s said 10+ workers with 150 minerals works like a charm and the game would begin 24 seconds sooner. Competitive players could scout their opponent safely. But you know it s hell for commentators to hold on.... | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 30 2021 18:59 iMECH_KolosS wrote: I have to disagree regarding the 4 player map creating more cheeses. To me, the undisclosed starting location inhibits some cheeses depending on map layout and rush distances of course. I think a well designed 4p map will reduce the use of proxy gateways, proxy voids w/shield battery (yes protoss are cheesy bastards sometimes ;-) ) and proxy barracks to name a few. Also, I kind of like the idea the distance to opponent is not the same in cross spawn vs close spawn and could affect harassing options/decisions, much like in broodwar. At least 4p (IMO) makes cheesing more risky for the cheeser I think. For instance, I like the 4 player map Nautilus that replaced submarine in Season 1 of the 2021 GSL. I also liked Frost as a 4 player map and according to liquipedia numbers it seemed to be 50% winrate roughly for each matchup. EDIT: I'm not saying this at it was a defined fact. But I think the game would benefit from putting 4 player maps back into the map pool as the gameplay is a bit different from when they were common on the ladder. If they tried 1 or 2, people could try them out and VETO them if they just don't like them or if they have too much variance. IF we learned anything from the HotS/WoL, than it is that with hidden starting locations we get more cheeses because they're harder to scout. Go check the VODs, you find plenty of random stargates, proxy 2gates and other shit in the middle of map because they can get away with it. These are the builds which are not possible on the 2 player maps because it's easier to scout these. Sure, you won't die to a random 6pool, but still. Also these maps will get more hate on the ladder because of random opponents. Scouting your opponent last with a 12 worker start? Have you tried defending 4gate when you didn't know it's coming and opened the normal way? Aw yeah, didn't think so. Sure, it won't increase the early game cheeses which are about knowing where to build the proxy. But everything else will be on a rise. Edit> want to stress the fact that many proxies from the old era were about betting. You didn't know if the proxy was at the right place, but you hade 66 % chance it is closer to the player than further. So e.g. proxy stargete will still work. Also want to mention even before there were cannon rushes when you send multiple probes. It's more possible nowadays because you have more workers to play with. Yes, it will be a heavy all in, but if it was possible before? (OTOH FFE was a standard opening, so there's a heavy price to pay) Edit2> lol, just joined the Demuslim stream and he's in the middle of balance ranting about Protoss | ||
iMECH_KolosS
Canada61 Posts
On March 30 2021 20:30 deacon.frost wrote: IF we learned anything from the HotS/WoL, than it is that with hidden starting locations we get more cheeses because they're harder to scout. Go check the VODs, you find plenty of random stargates, proxy 2gates and other shit in the middle of map because they can get away with it. These are the builds which are not possible on the 2 player maps because it's easier to scout these. Sure, you won't die to a random 6pool, but still. Also these maps will get more hate on the ladder because of random opponents. Scouting your opponent last with a 12 worker start? Have you tried defending 4gate when you didn't know it's coming and opened the normal way? Aw yeah, didn't think so. Sure, it won't increase the early game cheeses which are about knowing where to build the proxy. But everything else will be on a rise. Edit> want to stress the fact that many proxies from the old era were about betting. You didn't know if the proxy was at the right place, but you hade 66 % chance it is closer to the player than further. So e.g. proxy stargete will still work. Also want to mention even before there were cannon rushes when you send multiple probes. It's more possible nowadays because you have more workers to play with. Yes, it will be a heavy all in, but if it was possible before? (OTOH FFE was a standard opening, so there's a heavy price to pay) Edit2> lol, just joined the Demuslim stream and he's in the middle of balance ranting about Protoss Well they are indeed the cheesiest bunch hahaha! Totally biased. | ||
Legan
Finland280 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Kabasos
6 Posts
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Sprog
New Zealand83 Posts
On March 29 2021 07:08 Beelzebub1 wrote: Ultimately I do agree to a point, a small balance patch here and there to tone down some obviously OP units like the Lurker probably wouldn't be for the worst imo Really wouldn't even mind Bile not negating FF either, seems like a thing that sounded great when LOTV came out and now it's just too strong and invalidates the sentry too much. I like your suggestions of looking at the Ravager / Sentry FF interaction. A sentry upgrade FF/energy upgrade at the TC? In general cloaked splash damage is a bit too strong as well IMO. Given how potent they are in mineral lines the mine burrow speed should be a little slower without drilling claws. Don't mine the positional aspect of them, they should be punishable if you have units in position when medivacs fly over and drop them in your mineral lines... | ||
NonY
8716 Posts
On March 31 2021 04:21 Kabasos wrote: Why should Nathanias be involved in Map Rotation? most prominent community members have known someone at blizzard, and/or they know other people who know people, etc. but i think so many people have left blizzard at this point that the connections people had are all gone. afaik apollo is the only one to hint at anything at this point. there must be a much smaller social circle "in the loop" at this point than at any other point in sc2 | ||
IMSupervisor
Australia138 Posts
On March 31 2021 04:21 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Note that while Blizz/ESL/TL have been discussing this for a while now, and getting some input from various parties about the "competitive map pool", what's happening with the ladder pool is still quite unclear (and might involve different people at the Blizzard end). I'd be very (unpleasantly) surprised if they had the ladder pool be different to the competitive map pool, as the whole idea is to have viewers able go and play on the same maps they see on stream, and players able to tune in and watch pros on the same maps they play on, plus they want the top guys playing ladder too instead of only playing custom games on the maps they actually need to learn. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On March 31 2021 09:28 IMSupervisor wrote: I'd be very (unpleasantly) surprised if they had the ladder pool be different to the competitive map pool, as the whole idea is to have viewers able go and play on the same maps they see on stream, and players able to tune in and watch pros on the same maps they play on, plus they want the top guys playing ladder too instead of only playing custom games on the maps they actually need to learn. Yeah. Unfortunately at this point it's not impossible imo, but it's extremely unlikely. | ||
InfCereal
Canada1740 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 31 2021 20:14 InfCereal wrote: If ESL and Ladder are playing on different map pools, it might be time to seriously consider private servers. If it's even possible It's possible, not gonna happen, Blizz will shut it down. More realistic thing is, that they forgot that SC2 map pool is that old, ESL sent them a warning and they gonna update maps on the last minute or in the middle of a season. | ||
InfCereal
Canada1740 Posts
On March 31 2021 20:24 deacon.frost wrote: It's possible, not gonna happen, Blizz will shut it down. More realistic thing is, that they forgot that SC2 map pool is that old, ESL sent them a warning and they gonna update maps on the last minute or in the middle of a season. Although, I wonder if a blizzard sanctioned ESL private server would be viable. That way they can handle their own map rotations and balance changes for the competitive side, and blizzard can go back to pretending SC2 doesn't exist. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 31 2021 20:54 InfCereal wrote: Although, I wonder if a blizzard sanctioned ESL private server would be viable. That way they can handle their own map rotations and balance changes for the competitive side, and blizzard can go back to pretending SC2 doesn't exist. There were rumors about official tournament private server. AKA LAN Maybe Blizz updated this and allowed ESL the usage? Would be super disappointing if they don't touch the ladder though. | ||
Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On March 29 2021 07:40 InfCereal wrote: Really? No one I know likes the current state of the game. Its been discussed in this thread even - every game is a queen walk. (or some timing). The other matchups are fine, but you never actually get them. This is exactly how I feel about the game right now. Feels like almost every game is vs protoss (though in reality it's probably closer to 50%, which is still WAY too high), and I'm basically forced into doing some early all in or timing and hope to just kill them, because I'm not a pro, so I just can't control corruptor/brood lord/infestor/viper/queen/overseer, to have even the slightest hope of winning late game vs protoss. I really want to like this game, but I'm on the verge of quitting. | ||
ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On March 31 2021 20:54 InfCereal wrote: Although, I wonder if a blizzard sanctioned ESL private server would be viable. That way they can handle their own map rotations and balance changes for the competitive side, and blizzard can go back to pretending SC2 doesn't exist. A private SC2 server run by someone other than Blizzard is never going to happen in a million year. Blizzard announcing SC3 tomorrow is more likely. | ||
Vision_
712 Posts
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[Phantom]
Mexico2169 Posts
I wish we could at least get a rotation of all the old maps this game has had. There were some really good maps that we'll never get to play again and we're stuck with this incredibly zerg favored map pool. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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DERASTAT
Germany99 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 01 2021 05:19 [Phantom] wrote: Surprised to see how many zergs are complaining here since PvZ is incredibly Zerg favored and the only valid strategy protoss has can be countered with...queens. I wish we could at least get a rotation of all the old maps this game has had. There were some really good maps that we'll never get to play again and we're stuck with this incredibly zerg favored map pool. Well, you see, it's funny. Because technically you may be right. Technically communism works. In reality most of us are plebs who have shitty micro, shitty macro and have issues to not get supply blocked too often. So, technically PvZ may be favored. In reality most of the people are not going queen walking as they don't read the game too well. Most of the people wanna play longer games. And most of the people are shitty late game players. The issue is that for shitty late game players - the Protoss is the better ultimate army. And we're home. Also queen walking every game is pretty boring. I mean c'mon, I know roaches and queens are awesome, but can I build anything else? It's the same issue as with the old Swarm host. It was balanced for the top 2 % of players. The rest was complaining. Why? Because for the plebs bellow master you just parked the SH and they did all the work for you. The defense was harder to control properly. It required multitasking(ha!). Most of the players don't play the strategy part of the game. They play who gets supply blocked the least and who can built better army which relies less on controlling errors. That's why playing ling bane is a bad choice, that's why playing bio is a bad choice. But fun choices, aren't they? | ||
ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 01 2021 05:19 [Phantom] wrote: Surprised to see how many zergs are complaining here since PvZ is incredibly Zerg favored and the only valid strategy protoss has can be countered with...queens. I wish we could at least get a rotation of all the old maps this game has had. There were some really good maps that we'll never get to play again and we're stuck with this incredibly zerg favored map pool. The current map pool is not zerg favored--in fact it probably leans towards terran in longer series given that Submarine and Oxide are by far the most broken maps which forces the other races to use their vetoes on them. In a bo3 things are fairly even. The average LotV map pool is quite a bit better for zerg than the current one. | ||
ytherik
199 Posts
On April 01 2021 05:19 [Phantom] wrote: Surprised to see how many zergs are complaining here since PvZ is incredibly Zerg favored and the only valid strategy protoss has can be countered with...queens. I wish we could at least get a rotation of all the old maps this game has had. There were some really good maps that we'll never get to play again and we're stuck with this incredibly zerg favored map pool. You must either be high GM Zerg player, smurfing lower leages or actually never played PvZ as Zerg vs evenly matched opponent. I don't see how otherwise you come up with such an opinion about PvZ. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2169 Posts
On April 01 2021 05:49 deacon.frost wrote: Well, you see, it's funny. Because technically you may be right. Technically communism works. In reality most of us are plebs who have shitty micro, shitty macro and have issues to not get supply blocked too often. So, technically PvZ may be favored. In reality most of the people are not going queen walking as they don't read the game too well. Most of the people wanna play longer games. And most of the people are shitty late game players. The issue is that for shitty late game players - the Protoss is the better ultimate army. And we're home. Also queen walking every game is pretty boring. I mean c'mon, I know roaches and queens are awesome, but can I build anything else? It's the same issue as with the old Swarm host. It was balanced for the top 2 % of players. The rest was complaining. Why? Because for the plebs bellow master you just parked the SH and they did all the work for you. The defense was harder to control properly. It required multitasking(ha!). Most of the players don't play the strategy part of the game. They play who gets supply blocked the least and who can built better army which relies less on controlling errors. That's why playing ling bane is a bad choice, that's why playing bio is a bad choice. But fun choices, aren't they? Haha I guess that's a good argument. I've been playing zerg a lot lately and I've found myself too eager to enageg a Protoss lategame army and suffer in consequence. I need to stop and be fcalm and just chip away at it with viper/corruptor/lurker. Though to be fair...before that the Lurker is the easiest thing to do similar to the swarmhost. You have a very fast unit that becomes invisible and you just burrow it there and stop all ground agression or you can do very strong timings, forcing the Protoss to go Air all games, just as you're complaining. Which I guess leads us to what you (I think it was you?) were saying a couple of pages earlier that PvZ would need a design change to make it less boring. But I guess it's not going to happen. ____ Yeah I might be too harsh with the map pool, it's ok, But I wish we could play older maps. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 01 2021 06:27 [Phantom] wrote: Haha I guess that's a good argument. I've been playing zerg a lot lately and I've found myself too eager to enageg a Protoss lategame army and suffer in consequence. I need to stop and be fcalm and just chip away at it with viper/corruptor/lurker. Though to be fair...before that the Lurker is the easiest thing to do similar to the swarmhost. You have a very fast unit that becomes invisible and you just burrow it there and stop all ground agression or you can do very strong timings, forcing the Protoss to go Air all games, just as you're complaining. Which I guess leads us to what you (I think it was you?) were saying a couple of pages earlier that PvZ would need a design change to make it less boring. But I guess it's not going to happen. ____ Yeah I might be too harsh with the map pool, it's ok, But I wish we could play older maps. For me, personally, the game is way too fast now. But that's not gonna change any time soon either I would personally add queens damage from walking off creep. If you wanna do that, do that for shorter times. Edit> Like I mean low damage. This way if you move from base to base it doesn't matter much, but if you move for longer times it matters way too much. Something like when buildings will bleed out. Removed one of the upgrades from lurkers. Personally I think the instaburrow is more wrong, especially since there's no upgrade for tanks. Removed anti-massive anti-ground attack from I would changed the shield batteries that they need an energy investment to be turned on. Be it sentry, nexus, another already activated shield battery... costs 1 energy, shield battery autocasts this. Once turned on it doesn't consume any more energy outside energy. This way any offensive shield battery is a pylon until you get at least an oracle(in case of SG), which gives players a chance to react and removes robo/stalkers builds from the game. Sentry is a big investment and oracle is a delay, which means both should work fine. Or that NonY idea with lowered efficiency. I think ghosts need a late game buff since mass overseers make their usage against hive lurkers very hard, but I don't like giving longer range to them nor giving up the interrupt on the snipe, hmm. Don't know, may be stupid, doesn't care, won't be implemented anyway | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On April 01 2021 05:49 deacon.frost wrote: Well, you see, it's funny. Because technically you may be right. Technically communism works. In reality most of us are plebs who have shitty micro, shitty macro and have issues to not get supply blocked too often. So, technically PvZ may be favored. In reality most of the people are not going queen walking as they don't read the game too well. Most of the people wanna play longer games. And most of the people are shitty late game players. The issue is that for shitty late game players - the Protoss is the better ultimate army. And we're home. I have 30 APM and I like making Battlecruisers, please balance the game around me, people are attacking me way too fast and have units that beat my units | ||
InfCereal
Canada1740 Posts
On April 01 2021 08:03 Jealous wrote: I have 30 APM and I like making Battlecruisers, please balance the game around me, people are attacking me way too fast and have units that beat my units I unironically think battlecruisers come out too fast | ||
Scarlett`
Canada2366 Posts
On April 01 2021 05:19 [Phantom] wrote: Surprised to see how many zergs are complaining here since PvZ is incredibly Zerg favored and the only valid strategy protoss has can be countered with...queens. I wish we could at least get a rotation of all the old maps this game has had. There were some really good maps that we'll never get to play again and we're stuck with this incredibly zerg favored map pool. real hot take over here | ||
Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On April 01 2021 08:03 Jealous wrote: I have 30 APM and I like making Battlecruisers, please balance the game around me, people are attacking me way too fast and have units that beat my units I'm not sure this is the argument you want to be making considering zerg requires SIGNIFICANTLY higher apm than protoss does | ||
Stretch90
Canada4 Posts
On April 01 2021 05:19 [Phantom] wrote: Surprised to see how many zergs are complaining here since PvZ is incredibly Zerg favored and the only valid strategy protoss has can be countered with...queens. I've literally never seen worse denial from Protoss players than complaining about Zerg in this patch. Zerg is the most dead a race has ever been on ladder and Protoss is dominating and somehow they still complain about balance. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20734 Posts
On April 01 2021 07:41 deacon.frost wrote: For me, personally, the game is way too fast now. But that's not gonna change any time soon either I would personally add queens damage from walking off creep. If you wanna do that, do that for shorter times. Edit> Like I mean low damage. This way if you move from base to base it doesn't matter much, but if you move for longer times it matters way too much. Something like when buildings will bleed out. Removed one of the upgrades from lurkers. Personally I think the instaburrow is more wrong, especially since there's no upgrade for tanks. Removed anti-massive anti-ground attack from I would changed the shield batteries that they need an energy investment to be turned on. Be it sentry, nexus, another already activated shield battery... costs 1 energy, shield battery autocasts this. Once turned on it doesn't consume any more energy outside energy. This way any offensive shield battery is a pylon until you get at least an oracle(in case of SG), which gives players a chance to react and removes robo/stalkers builds from the game. Sentry is a big investment and oracle is a delay, which means both should work fine. Or that NonY idea with lowered efficiency. I think ghosts need a late game buff since mass overseers make their usage against hive lurkers very hard, but I don't like giving longer range to them nor giving up the interrupt on the snipe, hmm. Don't know, may be stupid, doesn't care, won't be implemented anyway Technically capitalism works too. I do agree the game is too fast, both in the ramping up of eco/tech as well as in volatility. You do kind of borderline skip a meaningful early game and go straight into the mid game a lot of times given Legacy’s changes to the eco. Since Wings a lot of units have been added that are extremely effective worker killers and considerably harder to defend than utilise. Which I mean, ok go down that route I guess? I’m not sure if it was all intentional in terms of design intent but we’ve kind of ended up with kind of phases of the game where it’s not a huge amount of army vs army skirmishing, then throw the harassers in and try to kill as many workers and then another lull until the bigger pushes, where if a player had success with their harassment you’re boned. I’m honestly not moaning about balance, just it seems Blizzard’s answer to not enough back and forth action were a ton of harassing units that are only particularly useful in that phase of the game, rather than managing to force more regular engagements all over the maps. | ||
crbox
Canada1176 Posts
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
It is called harass for a reason. Noone enjoys getting harassed. I understand why they did it, because its to make more exciting moments for pro play, instead of turtle deathball. Sc1 didnt have nearly as much focus on worker harass, but the limitations in army control and economy design made it so there was multiple fights happening anyways. The focus for skill in sc1 was alot more in macro though, and it doesnt really show or WOW viewers in tournaments. I do feel like in the end, focusing so much on making the game exciting to watch at the pro level happened at the detriment of average ladder players, and might have been one of the main cause of the game's downfall. I hope future RTS design teams can learn from this. and realize that if a lot of ppl play the game, a lot of ppl will watch tournaments, regardless if there is many exciting flashy moments or not. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20734 Posts
On April 01 2021 12:47 Snakestyle11 wrote: I do think that focusing the game design so much on worker harass, they made sure that only a small amount of gamers could stand playing this game extensively. It is called harass for a reason. Noone enjoys getting harassed. I understand why they did it, because its to make more exciting moments for pro play, instead of turtle deathball. Sc1 didnt have nearly as much focus on worker harass, but the limitations in army control and economy design made it so there was multiple fights happening anyways. The focus for skill in sc1 was alot more in macro though, and it doesnt really show or WOW viewers in tournaments. I do feel like in the end, focusing so much on making the game exciting to watch at the pro level happened at the detriment of average ladder players, and might have been one of the main cause of the game's downfall. I hope future RTS design teams can learn from this. and realize that if a lot of ppl play the game, a lot of ppl will watch tournaments, regardless if there is many exciting flashy moments or not. I mean by and large I still think SC2 has done more right than wrong and it's lasted a pretty damn long time, but yeah there is plenty to learn from it. I don't think the frustration is from difficulty either, it's not a matter of 'oh this bloke/blokette outplayed me there with that harass' as 'I happened to be looking somewhere else, oh noes', or alternatively just deflecting stuff if you do happen to be in position. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 01 2021 08:03 Jealous wrote: I have 30 APM and I like making Battlecruisers, please balance the game around me, people are attacking me way too fast and have units that beat my units I mean I am just Dia 1, so I am a protoss pleb and zergs cry rivers against my cancer turtling into air, so what do I know Edit> wrong units though. carriers, mate, carriers. As a Terran I go the dark turtling path of the mech, no BCs. | ||
Comedy
401 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland20734 Posts
On April 02 2021 19:11 Comedy wrote: im gonna queue up later hope i run into some cannons, shield batteries and void rays Best of luck, I heard they’re super rare these days | ||
NonY
8716 Posts
On April 01 2021 12:47 Snakestyle11 wrote: I do think that focusing the game design so much on worker harass, they made sure that only a small amount of gamers could stand playing this game extensively. It is called harass for a reason. Noone enjoys getting harassed. I understand why they did it, because its to make more exciting moments for pro play, instead of turtle deathball. Sc1 didnt have nearly as much focus on worker harass, but the limitations in army control and economy design made it so there was multiple fights happening anyways. The focus for skill in sc1 was alot more in macro though, and it doesnt really show or WOW viewers in tournaments. I do feel like in the end, focusing so much on making the game exciting to watch at the pro level happened at the detriment of average ladder players, and might have been one of the main cause of the game's downfall. I hope future RTS design teams can learn from this. and realize that if a lot of ppl play the game, a lot of ppl will watch tournaments, regardless if there is many exciting flashy moments or not. i think harass in sc2 is very similar gameplay to moba games, which are very popular. the micro and the map awareness are very similar. of course there will be some rts players who prefer to build up their army unmolested and then have big clashes of one army vs one army. but i think LotV picked up some of the traits from other very popular games and it improved the game overall | ||
Vision_
712 Posts
It s how you can solve the harassement problem. | ||
Hider
Denmark9237 Posts
On April 03 2021 01:30 NonY wrote: i think harass in sc2 is very similar gameplay to moba games, which are very popular. the micro and the map awareness are very similar. of course there will be some rts players who prefer to build up their army unmolested and then have big clashes of one army vs one army. but i think LotV picked up some of the traits from other very popular games and it improved the game overall I agree on this. Brood Wars game-play was a more centered around having units out on the map and giving players tools to retreat. Sc2 can't encourage that type of gameplay so they tried a different route to accomplish it, and I think it worked fine. Ideally both types of game-play is possible though. | ||
Vision_
712 Posts
I would be surprised to know how many viewers would pay and come back to try different multiplayer rts pro mode | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20734 Posts
On April 03 2021 03:08 Vision_ wrote: I don t see AOE4 doing better than sc2. I would be surprised to know how many viewers would pay and come back to try different multiplayer rts pro mode It’ll do well but I don’t see it either. If AoE4 is across the board better than SC2 in all areas and marketed well I think it can manage it but that even if those boxes are ticked I’m not sure SC2’s success can be replicated by another RTS | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 03 2021 03:08 Vision_ wrote: I don t see AOE4 doing better than sc2. I would be surprised to know how many viewers would pay and come back to try different multiplayer rts pro mode What exactly do you mean by that? Sale numbers or hurr durr e-sport, if it's not an e-sport RTS we don't care!? Because I think AoE 4 can have pretty good sales number and I doubt they aim to be the best competetive RTS e-sport evah. | ||
SC-Shield
Bulgaria766 Posts
Edit: also random drops since December, while I have internet access to anything else. And timeouts during Christmas holidays for days. This has never happened before. | ||
MockHamill
Sweden1793 Posts
The only thing we can do is never buy an Activision game ever again. I know I never will. Blizzard uses to stand for perfection. Activision somehow managed to destroy Blizzard completely. What is the point of buying a company and then completely destroy the brand that has been built for 20 years? They lost all the people and they destroyed the brand. I feel nothing but pure hatred for Kotick. I hope he will end up in hell for what he has done. | ||
Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On April 03 2021 17:27 MockHamill wrote: I really doubt I will keep playing SC2 after AOE4 is out. Activision really destroyed Blizzard and what we are left with is a broken game where even simple bugs like the bronze MMR ladder is left alone for weeks. The only thing we can do is never buy an Activision game ever again. I know I never will. Blizzard uses to stand for perfection. Activision somehow managed to destroy Blizzard completely. What is the point of buying a company and then completely destroy the brand that has been built for 20 years? The lost all the people and they destroyed the brand. I feel nothing but pure hatred for Kotick. I hope he will end up in hell for what he has done. Just to make sure, you do realize the activision merger happened in 2008? While I don't like bobby kotick either (who does), this kind of post always comes off as if it happened somewhat recently, when it didn't, or as if it's all activision's fault, which it isn't. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2169 Posts
On April 03 2021 19:25 Narcind wrote: Just to make sure, you do realize the activision merger happened in 2008? While I don't like bobby kotick either (who does), this kind of post always comes off as if it happened somewhat recently, when it didn't, or as if it's all activision's fault, which it isn't. This is true, but I would argue Activision influence on Blizzard has progressively increased in the recent years. And I got something to blame. Overwatch. Or More specifically: Titan. It seems Titan was such as colosal fuck-up by Blizzard that it made Activision start to be more hands on, taking a more active participation in which Blizzard projects were accepted and which weren't. You can hear it in interviews to Blizz devs talking about it and how Titan afected them, some even saying they don't feel ready to talk about it. Since then it appears Activision started to meddle more and more with blizzard, which ultimately lead to cancelling of many projects (there was one or two confirmed StarCraft projects that Activision didn't accept), the departure of many major Blizz employees, and finally the departure of Mike Morhaime. Since that moment, I think Activision just took control. | ||
LSN
Germany696 Posts
I am inactive 1v1 since 2016. I would love to play actively for 2-3 months again once a year. The thing is, it just doesn't feel worth my time. Whenever I start playing a few games, what I usually do each year, I recognize it is not. For example look at Zerg vs. air: it doesn't make sense for me that Protoss can get carriers out before or at the same time Zerg can get their fist regular anti air unit other than queen no matter how the game evolves. This is not about balance or imbalance, it is about: "Do I want to spend my time with that kind of stuff?" And that is only one example. You could name many. Another one would be: Terran bio is so heavily overpowered, that it narrows down unit design for other races. So in order to deal with it, you can't just give them normal units as bio are, but must give them heavy splash damage options which in return are too strong against other things (baneling vs. protoss). And the same can be said about Zerg economy design. It is too strong in getting ahead if not interrupted. Let me name one more: ZvT(mech). Why do I want to play this from a Z point of view? You can never attack terran. You can never fight remotely efficient (lose Zerg's 100 vs. Terran's 30 army supply). You need +2 bases in lategame. There are not that many options. If you don't lose a base until lategame things look well, if you lose 1 base things get dark and terran is on equal bases. So the game more or less evolves around exactly that: Can you maintain enough army supply while keep being ahead of the mech terran or not? Ok one more: Phoenix vs. Mutalisk. Just bullshit to me. Mutalisk way too strong without fenix on the map. 20+ Mutalisk way too useless with 3 fenix on the map. Another game of extremes I wont accept for myself being worth my time. Mutalisk however right in balance with terran. Why? Cause terran bio is so strong, it needs mutalisks to be as strong as they are. And so on, and so on. Ok, ok one more: Zerg vs. Adept early game? Seriously, this cannot even called harass anymore, it is frequently game ending damage on I guess every level of play. Do I say it is imbalanced? I don't. I have no idea. I am inactive. I just know I don't want to spend my time defending against Adepts as Zerg in a video game as it is a not fulfilling activity in my point of view to run behind adapts which abuse behind mineral positioning with queens and lings and a few roaches if you got them. A lot of people provide good thought process how to deal with things. All of them require major changes of the game. The timeframe for them to happen has passed (SC2 is in endgame now). LOTV and the year after was the last chance to do so. Small changes may allow tryhards to not shift away a bit longer but wont change the big picture of the things named above. Hence I say lets keep it simple: Chess has only one race and it works well. Both protoss and zerg are majorly flawed in different ways. Terran is not so much and probably the best mirror even though the mirror matchups of all 3 races have improved a lot. So why not just keep things simple from now on and make a better game that evolves around a single race design? Ofc that is a bit provocative and not really an option for SC. But in my point of view that is an honest assessment. SC2 was defeated (by Terran bio design) and has to write gg in the end to accept defeat. ;D The whole risk-reward system of SC2 doesn't evolve around risk=reward anymore but around how to abuse a tactic for a short amount of time which involves zero risks while providing maximum benefit, like for example abusing mutalisks vs. a non fenix protoss. Another example drops: Terran can drop bio without risk of losing the units. As protoss struggled: Lets give them the same with warp prism pickup range. Drop archons, do damage, pick them up from half a screen distance so you can do damage without any natural risks. Yes there are risks of overdoing it but thats a misplay not a natural risk. There is risk of neglecting other important things, but thats again misplay and not a natural risk. These are all interactions I don't want to spend my time with as a former Zerg player, no matter if it is balanced or not. They are flawed interactions. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 05 2021 15:54 LSN wrote: + Show Spoiler + The question for SC2 solely is, if it is worth spending your time on or not. I am inactive 1v1 since 2016. I would love to play actively for 2-3 months again once a year. The thing is, it just doesn't feel worth my time. Whenever I start playing a few games, what I usually do each year, I recognize it is not. For example look at Zerg vs. air: it doesn't make sense for me that Protoss can get carriers out before or at the same time Zerg can get their fist regular anti air unit other than queen no matter how the game evolves. This is not about balance or imbalance, it is about: "Do I want to spend my time with that kind of stuff?" And that is only one example. You could name many. Another one would be: Terran bio is so heavily overpowered, that it narrows down unit design for other races. So in order to deal with it, you can't just give them normal units as bio are, but must give them heavy splash damage options which in return are too strong against other things (baneling vs. protoss). And the same can be said about Zerg economy design. It is too strong in getting ahead if not interrupted. Let me name one more: ZvT(mech). Why do I want to play this from a Z point of view? You can never attack terran. You can never fight remotely efficient (lose Zerg's 100 vs. Terran's 30 army supply). You need +2 bases in lategame. There are not that many options. If you don't lose a base until lategame things look well, if you lose 1 base things get dark and terran is on equal bases. So the game more or less evolves around exactly that: Can you maintain enough army supply while keep being ahead of the mech terran or not? Ok one more: Phoenix vs. Mutalisk. Just bullshit to me. Mutalisk way too strong without fenix on the map. 20+ Mutalisk way too useless with 3 fenix on the map. Another game of extremes I wont accept for myself being worth my time. Mutalisk however right in balance with terran. Why? Cause terran bio is so strong, it needs mutalisks to be as strong as they are. And so on, and so on. Ok, ok one more: Zerg vs. Adept early game? Seriously, this cannot even called harass anymore, it is frequently game ending damage on I guess every level of play. Do I say it is imbalanced? I don't. I have no idea. I am inactive. I just know I don't want to spend my time defending against Adepts as Zerg in a video game as it is a not fulfilling activity in my point of view to run behind adapts which abuse behind mineral positioning with queens and lings and a few roaches if you got them. A lot of people provide good thought process how to deal with things. All of them require major changes of the game. The timeframe for them to happen has passed (SC2 is in endgame now). LOTV and the year after was the last chance to do so. Small changes may allow tryhards to not shift away a bit longer but wont change the big picture of the things named above. Hence I say lets keep it simple: Chess has only one race and it works well. Both protoss and zerg are majorly flawed in different ways. Terran is not so much and probably the best mirror even though the mirror matchups of all 3 races have improved a lot. So why not just keep things simple from now on and make a better game that evolves around a single race design? Ofc that is a bit provocative and not really an option for SC. But in my point of view that is an honest assessment. SC2 was defeated (by Terran bio design) and has to write gg in the end to accept defeat. ;D The whole risk-reward system of SC2 doesn't evolve around risk=reward anymore but around how to abuse a tactic for a short amount of time which involves zero risks while providing maximum benefit, like for example abusing mutalisks vs. a non fenix protoss. Another example drops: Terran can drop bio without risk of losing the units. As protoss struggled: Lets give them the same with warp prism pickup range. Drop archons, do damage, pick them up from half a screen distance so you can do damage without any natural risks. Yes there are risks of overdoing it but thats a misplay not a natural risk. There is risk of neglecting other important things, but thats again misplay and not a natural risk. These are all interactions I don't want to spend my time with as a former Zerg player, no matter if it is balanced or not. They are flawed interactions It's kinda ironic that while LotV fixed some things in the end, it is still broken on so many places (and keeping just Terran wouldn't work because you would lose right from the batch Protoss and Zerg fans) Adept ignoring body block. Protoss ignoring the defender advantage and what's worse, bringing it with them in the form of shield batteries. Queen ignoring the larvae mechanic. Queen having all of the early game roles except attacker, which comes in the mid-game Lategame air unit being a safe early game opener - BC - because it has a free teleport. Air army being the best lategame army - ignores terrain. And rather easily reachable(basically every lategame fights have lategame air units in them and are about the lategame air units). Protoss altering the map because they have to(we can talk which is worse, but either way it is a design flaw) Protoss having bad retreat mechanic thus in need of the recall from the early game Harass being too strong(as was already mentioned, only some folks like being harassed, no shaming though) Detection being too strong part of the game. This is IMO the most frustrating mechanic, because it's literally binary - you either have detection or you don't and if you don't you just right out lose. And even if you have detection it doesn't mean you come on the top(especially in the lower leages) DTs have blink - constantly cloaked unit which requires detection with insane dps gets blink. What can go wrong? All of these appear to be balanced. All of these are bad design choices. And especially lower league players can so many of these fight with a lazy approach but it doesn't change it's a shitty design. e.g. Adepts ignoring the body block. You can have 2 base economy with a zerg and just build a wall with a spine in it. BAM. Adeptsd are worthless. They may kill your third, but in reality in anything lower than masters this is fine. As long as you don't lose your drones (and thus larvae). Low leagues are fun | ||
algue
France1436 Posts
On April 01 2021 12:47 Snakestyle11 wrote: I do feel like in the end, focusing so much on making the game exciting to watch at the pro level happened at the detriment of average ladder players, and might have been one of the main cause of the game's downfall. I totally agree with this. What's funny is that while it seems clear to me that this was the "focus", they still managed to fuck it up from the get go and have always been very unresponsive/slow to update the game and secretive about wtf they were working on. Would have been fine if they rolled out quality updates everytime but they clearly didn't. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
So the final balance change should be the revert of their cost reduction. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On March 29 2021 07:40 InfCereal wrote: Really? No one I know likes the current state of the game. Its been discussed in this thread even - every game is a queen walk. (or some timing). The other matchups are fine, but you never actually get them. I can only speak for the masters/gm level, as that's where I am, and that's where my friends are, but if you just look at the stats, it supports what I'm whining about. This is global masters, the red line is somewhere around the voidray patch. And GM We face a disproportionate amount of protoss players, most of them open voidray, and we're going to do a timing because "kill them before they get there". How many times can you scout 2sg void, and just walk queens across the map before you get bored? Most of the people I talk to don't even have loss-y records in zvp. They're just bored It's the same reason it's not fun that broodlord/infestor in wol wasn't fun. The game was technically balanced (source: aligulac), but god it fucking sucked to play. On top of that, allthingszerg discord is basically a ghost-town nowaday, and it used to be basically the place to be to learn/improve at zerg (imo). Yeah, I played 50% Terran and 50% Zerg before the meta change but now I quit Zerg because the current ZvP metagame removes all the things from the game I like about sc2 (multitasking, back and forth games etc) | ||
LSN
Germany696 Posts
strong damage, slow movement, movement ability like medivac to make up for slowness or weak damage, fast movement, damage ability like void ray to make up for weak damage not strong damage, fast movement, damage ability on top, then tp back to nexus after 2 second main building kill Of course in the actual current framework and with damage weakness to non armored units it makes somewhat sense as it is. But I don not like it still. | ||
Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On top of that, batteries are ridiculous. Proxied ones and battery overcharge both need a fat nerf, imo. | ||
NonY
8716 Posts
in pvz, void rays are not the lynchpin to these skytoss games. they were used a lot at first so they seemed essential, but protoss can get to carriers without getting void rays. idk why zergs dont simply want carriers nerfed. if you don't ever have to worry about carriers coming then it'd make the void rays a lot easier to handle (if for some reason protoss still went mass voids even when a transition to carrier isnt viable) in pvp, the new void rays have actually been helping diversify builds and they definitely aren't some big problem in the matchup. if anything, blink stalkers are the worst part about pvp | ||
Scarlett`
Canada2366 Posts
On April 06 2021 03:51 NonY wrote: im afraid if you nerf void ray then they'll be so bad for mid game and late game pvt. better to nerf proxy shield battery, which the 1 base void ray pvt build relies on, than nerf the void ray itself. and honestly i dont think anyone likes playing against proxy shield battery in any situation, so that'd be a much better general improvement to the game than nerfing void ray in pvz, void rays are not the lynchpin to these skytoss games. they were used a lot at first so they seemed essential, but protoss can get to carriers without getting void rays. idk why zergs dont simply want carriers nerfed. if you don't ever have to worry about carriers coming then it'd make the void rays a lot easier to handle (if for some reason protoss still went mass voids even when a transition to carrier isnt viable) in pvp, the new void rays have actually been helping diversify builds and they definitely aren't some big problem in the matchup. if anything, blink stalkers are the worst part about pvp When zerg has a good army up carriers arent really oppressive (at least at the top level); the transition is just much harder for the zerg as you need viper (hive tech) & double spire upgrades on corruptor & ultra or lurker (also hive tech); so everything you build early in the game has to be sacrificed at some point; whereas void rays and templar are still used on the big protoss army. If protoss can't play void ray -> storm -> carrier and kinda needs to play ground first to be safer then the transition is more equal on both sides as protoss ground army will fall off eventually as well Completely agree about proxy shield battery though; the cannon rushes with voidray or immortal are also insane I think a big problem fighting carriers lower on the ladder is that if you dont target every unit with the corruptors and they shoot interceptors even for a few seconds you really dont have a chance to win the fight; Its also a little counter-intuitive that you need to wait until most of the splash from protoss is gone before you even send in the corruptors; so it only feels like you're fighting with 1/3rd of your army at first Hydras are also a massive bait for lower level players as they are quite gas expensive and become useless once storm carrier is up, so if you make more than a few and dont kill protoss early you really have no chance to transition to late game | ||
Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On April 06 2021 03:51 NonY wrote: in pvz, void rays are not the lynchpin to these skytoss games. they were used a lot at first so they seemed essential, but protoss can get to carriers without getting void rays. idk why zergs dont simply want carriers nerfed. if you don't ever have to worry about carriers coming then it'd make the void rays a lot easier to handle (if for some reason protoss still went mass voids even when a transition to carrier isnt viable) The way I see it, is that the void ray (and to a lesser extent shield batteries), is the glue that keeps the protoss player together while teching up and expanding in the midgame, and allows them to do so a bit too effortlessly, which eventually snowballs into zergs feeling helpless in the lategame. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 06 2021 04:25 Narcind wrote: The way I see it, is that the void ray (and to a lesser extent shield batteries), is the glue that keeps the protoss player together while teching up and expanding in the midgame, and allows them to do so a bit too effortlessly, which eventually snowballs into zergs feeling helpless in the lategame. Well, yeah. This may be true, but it's hard to argue about that when the batteries are built in the wrong natural Most people understand, that shield batteries and their overcharge are actually vital for Protoss, they want to nerf their proxying. And void rays need nerf. Also tomorrow ends the season. i wonder what the new map pool will be | ||
Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On April 06 2021 04:34 deacon.frost wrote: Most people understand, that shield batteries and their overcharge are actually vital for Protoss, they want to nerf their proxying. Sure, I'm just not sure they need to be quite as strong as they currently are. I'd be happy with a slight nerf to battery overcharge as far as defensive batteries go, personally. Proxy batteries are definitely the most egregious though, I agree. | ||
LSN
Germany696 Posts
Teamgames are also in a sad state cause of protoss air. On high level ofc. carrier are not really imbalanced. Just too easy to play with and too hard to play against in terms of efforts. But the game evolves around them and defending against them, bunkering and turtling carrier upon shield batteries. Then in the big fight they are the main lag driver. So changing their role would benefit the game as a whole. I would go with something like -1 damage for interceptors and +100 shield +50 hp +1 armor. So they would become a kind of air tank what you need just 2-3 of which has to be complemented with a lot of other units instead of carrier only spam. Ofc it needs to be tested what makes sense and what not. | ||
omop
41 Posts
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Xamo
Spain863 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On April 06 2021 03:51 NonY wrote: im afraid if you nerf void ray then they'll be so bad for mid game and late game pvt. better to nerf proxy shield battery, which the 1 base void ray pvt build relies on, than nerf the void ray itself. and honestly i dont think anyone likes playing against proxy shield battery in any situation, so that'd be a much better general improvement to the game than nerfing void ray in pvz, void rays are not the lynchpin to these skytoss games. they were used a lot at first so they seemed essential, but protoss can get to carriers without getting void rays. idk why zergs dont simply want carriers nerfed. if you don't ever have to worry about carriers coming then it'd make the void rays a lot easier to handle (if for some reason protoss still went mass voids even when a transition to carrier isnt viable) in pvp, the new void rays have actually been helping diversify builds and they definitely aren't some big problem in the matchup. if anything, blink stalkers are the worst part about pvp Voidrays are never built in mid-/lategame pvt anyway? And as a terran I never felt proxy shield battery was problematic before the recent voidray buffs. It may be different in PvZ though | ||
NonY
8716 Posts
On April 07 2021 01:54 Charoisaur wrote: Voidrays are never built in mid-/lategame pvt anyway? they are. with 1 stargate void ray opening, protoss never has to build any stalkers. much more potent army than stalker armies. if terran goes double reactored starport vikings then it's best to give up void ray production but it doesnt put protoss behind imo | ||
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