EPTBeen a while since last balance patch - Page 2
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 28 2021 03:15 FabledIntegral wrote: I quit playing after all the ZvP became mass void ray. Balance be damned, it's not a fun playstyle to face (air toss in general). All for nerfs to Z (ie. Lurkers) that get P to a (typically) ground based late game. It;s not fun to face protoss air in TvP either. Like the game is in its worse state since BL infestor and damn the balance, it's not fun to play nor wathc. I mean - c'mon, queen walk? Epic play there! What a micro god! Oh, and them maps old 9 and 6 months. | ||
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
On March 28 2021 03:33 404AlphaSquad wrote: I have the feeling that at this point, sc2 is just like BW abandonware for Blizzard. Can you call it abandonware when they supported it for 10 years, most of which weren't profitable? I'm pretty satisfied with SC2's life. It may have never achieved LoL status, but it never would've... | ||
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MrShankly
United Kingdom371 Posts
On March 27 2021 22:28 Teoita wrote: That was before we found out that the team was disbanded/restructured though right? Realistically, what's going to happen is they may outsource map making to ESL/TLMC eventually, and they'll just keep the servers online and call it a day. We're definitely not seeing a new balance patch imo. PvZ especially may be as boring as ever but honestly it's impossible to make that matchup interesting without a major redesign of both P and Z, and that will never happen. That would be cool. Does that also allow us to have some form of balance patch? I don't really follow sc2 map making much - but I think map makers can change unit stats for custom maps. Does that also work in ladder play? | ||
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AxiomB
69 Posts
I am happy we still have a highly entertaining and competitive SC2 scene. In Zerg we have Serral, Rogue, Dark, Reynor (all amazing players with the potential to win tournies). In Protoss we have Stats, sOs, Zoun and Zest (all geniuses in their race and capable of taking home trophies) and in Terran we have Maru, TY, Cure, Clem and Innovation (all proven champs with the skill to demolish their opponents). Also there are the 30+ deep pool of other SC2 players nipping at these guy's heels. ALL UNDER THE CURRENT PATCH AND MAPS. THEREFORE; the game is in a great state at the pro level, all the major tournies are stacked and extremely hard to call. GSL hype!!!!!! | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 28 2021 16:15 Blargh wrote: Can you call it abandonware when they supported it for 10 years, most of which weren't profitable? I'm pretty satisfied with SC2's life. It may have never achieved LoL status, but it never would've... Yes. Abandonware is a abandoned software. Although I would't call any SC that way because there are still ways to buy it and run it legally. As a good example of abandonware can be Aliens vs Predators 2 and Need for Speed High Stakes. The first is and will be untouched because of the copyrights ownership nightmare and the latter because I have no idea. (I mean you can purchase another OST considering the rights ran out, can't you? EA? billions of USDs?) Edit> Abandonware has nothing to do about how long the game was supported. It's all about the current state. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On March 28 2021 20:09 AxiomB wrote: Patch or no patch, new maps or no new maps; I am happy we still have a highly entertaining and competitive SC2 scene. In Zerg we have Serral, Rogue, Dark, Reynor (all amazing players with the potential to win tournies). In Protoss we have Stats, sOs, Zoun and Zest (all geniuses in their race and capable of taking home trophies) and in Terran we have Maru, TY, Cure, Clem and Innovation (all proven champs with the skill to demolish their opponents). Also there are the 30+ deep pool of other SC2 players nipping at these guy's heels. ALL UNDER THE CURRENT PATCH AND MAPS. THEREFORE; the game is in a great state at the pro level, all the major tournies are stacked and extremely hard to call. GSL hype!!!!!! This is pretty much my thought process on the matter, I don't even trust who is left at Blizzard to be qualified and have the game/meta knowledge to make balance changes that would positively impact the game. Aligulac has Protoss kind of a bit strong at the top level and Terran falling off a bit, but that's just the nature of the beast with this game, a perfect 50/50 balance ratio across the board is almost impossible to maintain. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On March 28 2021 23:44 LSN wrote: The only decent decision to do at this point would be to remove/disallow Protoss and Zerg from ladder and tournaments and make it a TvT only game. TvT is probably more fun to play and watch than PvZ, PvT and PvT. Uh. no. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 29 2021 00:29 Beelzebub1 wrote: This is pretty much my thought process on the matter, I don't even trust who is left at Blizzard to be qualified and have the game/meta knowledge to make balance changes that would positively impact the game. Aligulac has Protoss kind of a bit strong at the top level and Terran falling off a bit, but that's just the nature of the beast with this game, a perfect 50/50 balance ratio across the board is almost impossible to maintain. I reiterate my point - what's the point of a balanced game when it's ugly to watch? Out of all their flaws, the good ol' swarm hosts were balanced at the top level. Although I agree that it's a design issue,. having a balanced game when it's ugly is meh at best. | ||
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Comedy
469 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On March 29 2021 02:06 deacon.frost wrote: I reiterate my point - what's the point of a balanced game when it's ugly to watch? Out of all their flaws, the good ol' swarm hosts were balanced at the top level. Although I agree that it's a design issue,. having a balanced game when it's ugly is meh at best. I mean what's so ugly besides Skytoss openers being the new go to in PvZ? I don't even think it's been fully fleshed out at this point because some Protoss seem so fragile with it and others look solid as a rock. I find it fascinating after all this time how the metagame still seems to shift in PvZ while it seems more or less figured out in TvZ. Personally though, I could stand to see Lurkers take a hit with the nerf bat, they seem to do just an absolute insane amount of damage and are quite durable and nimble, Adaptive Talons should just be removed from the game, it removes one of the key weaknesses of the unit for no real apparent reason. | ||
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Athenau
573 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 29 2021 02:49 Beelzebub1 wrote: I mean what's so ugly besides Skytoss openers being the new go to in PvZ? I don't even think it's been fully fleshed out at this point because some Protoss seem so fragile with it and others look solid as a rock. I find it fascinating after all this time how the metagame still seems to shift in PvZ while it seems more or less figured out in TvZ. Personally though, I could stand to see Lurkers take a hit with the nerf bat, they seem to do just an absolute insane amount of damage and are quite durable and nimble, Adaptive Talons should just be removed from the game, it removes one of the key weaknesses of the unit for no real apparent reason. Queen walk never really happened. Long range instaburrow lurkers into sieged siege tanks. WTF?! There you have 2 examples. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On March 29 2021 02:49 Beelzebub1 wrote: Personally though, I could stand to see Lurkers take a hit with the nerf bat, they seem to do just an absolute insane amount of damage and are quite durable and nimble, Adaptive Talons should just be removed from the game, it removes one of the key weaknesses of the unit for no real apparent reason. Yeah, I agree. Though really it could be either one of the two upgrades to go. Lurkers with more range but slower is manageable (something like tempests). Similarly, fast but lower range is also manageable since you can at least outrange them with storm, colossus, or disruptors. With both upgrades, a critical mass of lurkers is almost uncounterable on the ground for protoss. They can't be stormed (and storm barely hurts them), can't be outranged by colossus, and can unburrow and move quickly enough to dodge disruptor shots. At least Terran has snipe against the I suppose. Protoss having air be as strong as it is right now is almost a necessity because without it, mass lurker/spore/viper/queen would be almost unbeatable. I'd be fine with void rays being toned down on condition lurkers are also weakened a bit. Both units are a bit too good right now but making one weaker without also dealing with the other will skew PvZ to whichever one wasn't nerfed. Of course, the chance of any of this happening is slim to none, but one can dream I guess? edit: Queen walk strategies are a lot more complicated. On the one hand, they're really silly to watch and seem like something that was never intended to be part of the game. On the other hand, these strategies are counterable if scouted and the threat of them is almost necessary to exist because of the current state of void rays. The other thing is that queen walks are quite map-dependent. On some maps the strategy is very strong (Pillars of Gold) while on others it's basically useless (Deathaura being one). Map design could be used to handle queen walks in the same way it was used to partly deal with blink all-ins. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 29 2021 03:33 Ben... wrote: Yeah, I agree. Though really it could be either one of the two upgrades to go. Lurkers with more range but slower is manageable (something like tempests). Similarly, fast but lower range is also manageable since you can at least outrange them with storm, colossus, or disruptors. With both upgrades, a critical mass of lurkers is almost uncounterable on the ground for protoss. They can't be stormed (and storm barely hurts them), can't be outranged by colossus, and can unburrow and move quickly enough to dodge disruptor shots. At least Terran has snipe against the I suppose. Protoss having air be as strong as it is right now is almost a necessity because without it, mass lurker/spore/viper/queen would be almost unbeatable. I'd be fine with void rays being toned down on condition lurkers are also weakened a bit. Both units are a bit too good right now but making one weaker without also dealing with the other will skew PvZ to whichever one wasn't nerfed. Of course, the chance of any of this happening is slim to none, but one can dream I guess? edit: Queen walk strategies are a lot more complicated. On the one hand, they're really silly to watch and seem like something that was never intended to be part of the game. On the other hand, these strategies are counterable if scouted and the threat of them is almost necessary to exist because of the current state of void rays. The other thing is that queen walks are quite map-dependent. On some maps the strategy is very strong (Pillars of Gold) while on others it's basically useless (Deathaura being one). Map design could be used to handle queen walks in the same way it was used to partly deal with blink all-ins. In the meantime Harstem on his YOutube says, that if Protoss opens air you just queen walk to victory. I take Harstem over you, no offense. (if i wasn't that lazy and havent seen that many of his videos I would provide even source) | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
Yeah, the game is balanced. It's just not fun. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On March 29 2021 04:03 deacon.frost wrote: In the meantime Harstem on his YOutube says, that if Protoss opens air you just queen walk to victory. I take Harstem over you, no offense. (if i wasn't that lazy and havent seen that many of his videos I would provide even source) He said that like a month ago. I watch his channel regularly I've seen the videos where he talked about it. He even did a video where he did the strategy while playing and talked about in the last week. Even he has pointed out the map-dependent nature of the strength of the queen walk. On maps like Pillars of Gold or Jagannatha, Zerg takes the forward third and walks from there, which massively shortens the amount of time it takes for the queen to walk across the map. On maps where there isn't a forward third or the rush distance is much longer, it takes longer for the queens to walk so the build is weaker. Artosis talked a bit about queen walks on the latest GSL too and mentioned this also. Like a month or two ago? Yeah queen walks looked almost impossible to beat because it was brand new and in the meta every protoss was going double Stargate void ray, which queen walk counters. But now we are seeing pros getting better at stopping it, either by doing other builds on maps queen walks are strong on, or by looking for the tells that the build is happening and transitioning into something else than can have a better chance of beating it. That's not to say I like the build though. I think as a build the queen walk is dumb and not something I would want in the game. It's never easy to tell what's going on because of all the spells being casted. On the maps where it's good it's also obnoxiously hard to hold off and is one of those things where either protoss has the exact composition to hold it, or just dies. But queen walk exists to counter passive double stargate builds, which I think is a good thing. Double stargate into storm often ended up in very passive games where not a lot happened for a long time. Harstem did a guide for double stargate into storm that showed this pretty well. You could literally just go double stargate and rush storm behind cannons and batteries and zerg couldn't really ever attack in so they also had to play passively. Queen walk with ravagers turned out to be the thing that could hit before a critical mass of storm and protoss air was out. Without this build, every PvZ BO3 was about to be over an hour long where nothing happened for a good chunk of it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27028 Posts
On March 29 2021 04:03 deacon.frost wrote: In the meantime Harstem on his YOutube says, that if Protoss opens air you just queen walk to victory. I take Harstem over you, no offense. (if i wasn't that lazy and havent seen that many of his videos I would provide even source) I’m not sure Harstem said that, specifically anyway. Queen walks kill 2 SG void into sky toss pretty nastily yeah, they don’t fare particularly well against all sorts of other stuff, why we’re seeing a lot of mind game fake 2 SG plays recently, Hurricane v Rag in Code A recently being an example of that. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27028 Posts
On March 29 2021 04:37 InfCereal wrote: Everyone's talking about balance, no one's talking about the fact zerg's are abandoning the game in droves because it's not fun to play. Yeah, the game is balanced. It's just not fun. First I’m hearing that the game is particularly unfun for Zergs tbh. Can’t say I’m super on top of forums outside of TL but I can’t see much that’s bad enough to have people abandon the game outside of people who are just burned out on the game, certainly nothing that’s particular awful for any particular race. | ||
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