EPTSo the final balance change should be the revert of their cost reduction.
Been a while since last balance patch - Page 7
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Charoisaur
Germany15867 Posts
So the final balance change should be the revert of their cost reduction. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15867 Posts
On March 29 2021 07:40 InfCereal wrote: Really? No one I know likes the current state of the game. Its been discussed in this thread even - every game is a queen walk. (or some timing). The other matchups are fine, but you never actually get them. I can only speak for the masters/gm level, as that's where I am, and that's where my friends are, but if you just look at the stats, it supports what I'm whining about. This is global masters, the red line is somewhere around the voidray patch. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/PmYC4dg.png) And GM ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/S5HgEY9.png) We face a disproportionate amount of protoss players, most of them open voidray, and we're going to do a timing because "kill them before they get there". How many times can you scout 2sg void, and just walk queens across the map before you get bored? Most of the people I talk to don't even have loss-y records in zvp. They're just bored It's the same reason it's not fun that broodlord/infestor in wol wasn't fun. The game was technically balanced (source: aligulac), but god it fucking sucked to play. On top of that, allthingszerg discord is basically a ghost-town nowaday, and it used to be basically the place to be to learn/improve at zerg (imo). Yeah, I played 50% Terran and 50% Zerg before the meta change but now I quit Zerg because the current ZvP metagame removes all the things from the game I like about sc2 (multitasking, back and forth games etc) | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
strong damage, slow movement, movement ability like medivac to make up for slowness or weak damage, fast movement, damage ability like void ray to make up for weak damage not strong damage, fast movement, damage ability on top, then tp back to nexus after 2 second main building kill Of course in the actual current framework and with damage weakness to non armored units it makes somewhat sense as it is. But I don not like it still. | ||
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On top of that, batteries are ridiculous. Proxied ones and battery overcharge both need a fat nerf, imo. | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
in pvz, void rays are not the lynchpin to these skytoss games. they were used a lot at first so they seemed essential, but protoss can get to carriers without getting void rays. idk why zergs dont simply want carriers nerfed. if you don't ever have to worry about carriers coming then it'd make the void rays a lot easier to handle (if for some reason protoss still went mass voids even when a transition to carrier isnt viable) in pvp, the new void rays have actually been helping diversify builds and they definitely aren't some big problem in the matchup. if anything, blink stalkers are the worst part about pvp | ||
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Scarlett`
China2371 Posts
On April 06 2021 03:51 NonY wrote: im afraid if you nerf void ray then they'll be so bad for mid game and late game pvt. better to nerf proxy shield battery, which the 1 base void ray pvt build relies on, than nerf the void ray itself. and honestly i dont think anyone likes playing against proxy shield battery in any situation, so that'd be a much better general improvement to the game than nerfing void ray in pvz, void rays are not the lynchpin to these skytoss games. they were used a lot at first so they seemed essential, but protoss can get to carriers without getting void rays. idk why zergs dont simply want carriers nerfed. if you don't ever have to worry about carriers coming then it'd make the void rays a lot easier to handle (if for some reason protoss still went mass voids even when a transition to carrier isnt viable) in pvp, the new void rays have actually been helping diversify builds and they definitely aren't some big problem in the matchup. if anything, blink stalkers are the worst part about pvp When zerg has a good army up carriers arent really oppressive (at least at the top level); the transition is just much harder for the zerg as you need viper (hive tech) & double spire upgrades on corruptor & ultra or lurker (also hive tech); so everything you build early in the game has to be sacrificed at some point; whereas void rays and templar are still used on the big protoss army. If protoss can't play void ray -> storm -> carrier and kinda needs to play ground first to be safer then the transition is more equal on both sides as protoss ground army will fall off eventually as well Completely agree about proxy shield battery though; the cannon rushes with voidray or immortal are also insane I think a big problem fighting carriers lower on the ladder is that if you dont target every unit with the corruptors and they shoot interceptors even for a few seconds you really dont have a chance to win the fight; Its also a little counter-intuitive that you need to wait until most of the splash from protoss is gone before you even send in the corruptors; so it only feels like you're fighting with 1/3rd of your army at first Hydras are also a massive bait for lower level players as they are quite gas expensive and become useless once storm carrier is up, so if you make more than a few and dont kill protoss early you really have no chance to transition to late game | ||
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On April 06 2021 03:51 NonY wrote: in pvz, void rays are not the lynchpin to these skytoss games. they were used a lot at first so they seemed essential, but protoss can get to carriers without getting void rays. idk why zergs dont simply want carriers nerfed. if you don't ever have to worry about carriers coming then it'd make the void rays a lot easier to handle (if for some reason protoss still went mass voids even when a transition to carrier isnt viable) The way I see it, is that the void ray (and to a lesser extent shield batteries), is the glue that keeps the protoss player together while teching up and expanding in the midgame, and allows them to do so a bit too effortlessly, which eventually snowballs into zergs feeling helpless in the lategame. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On April 06 2021 04:25 Narcind wrote: The way I see it, is that the void ray (and to a lesser extent shield batteries), is the glue that keeps the protoss player together while teching up and expanding in the midgame, and allows them to do so a bit too effortlessly, which eventually snowballs into zergs feeling helpless in the lategame. Well, yeah. This may be true, but it's hard to argue about that when the batteries are built in the wrong natural  Most people understand, that shield batteries and their overcharge are actually vital for Protoss, they want to nerf their proxying. And void rays need nerf. Also tomorrow ends the season. i wonder what the new map pool will be | ||
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On April 06 2021 04:34 deacon.frost wrote: Most people understand, that shield batteries and their overcharge are actually vital for Protoss, they want to nerf their proxying. Sure, I'm just not sure they need to be quite as strong as they currently are. I'd be happy with a slight nerf to battery overcharge as far as defensive batteries go, personally. Proxy batteries are definitely the most egregious though, I agree. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Teamgames are also in a sad state cause of protoss air. On high level ofc. carrier are not really imbalanced. Just too easy to play with and too hard to play against in terms of efforts. But the game evolves around them and defending against them, bunkering and turtling carrier upon shield batteries. Then in the big fight they are the main lag driver. So changing their role would benefit the game as a whole. I would go with something like -1 damage for interceptors and +100 shield +50 hp +1 armor. So they would become a kind of air tank what you need just 2-3 of which has to be complemented with a lot of other units instead of carrier only spam. Ofc it needs to be tested what makes sense and what not. | ||
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omop
42 Posts
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Xamo
Spain874 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15867 Posts
On April 06 2021 03:51 NonY wrote: im afraid if you nerf void ray then they'll be so bad for mid game and late game pvt. better to nerf proxy shield battery, which the 1 base void ray pvt build relies on, than nerf the void ray itself. and honestly i dont think anyone likes playing against proxy shield battery in any situation, so that'd be a much better general improvement to the game than nerfing void ray in pvz, void rays are not the lynchpin to these skytoss games. they were used a lot at first so they seemed essential, but protoss can get to carriers without getting void rays. idk why zergs dont simply want carriers nerfed. if you don't ever have to worry about carriers coming then it'd make the void rays a lot easier to handle (if for some reason protoss still went mass voids even when a transition to carrier isnt viable) in pvp, the new void rays have actually been helping diversify builds and they definitely aren't some big problem in the matchup. if anything, blink stalkers are the worst part about pvp Voidrays are never built in mid-/lategame pvt anyway? And as a terran I never felt proxy shield battery was problematic before the recent voidray buffs. It may be different in PvZ though | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
On April 07 2021 01:54 Charoisaur wrote: Voidrays are never built in mid-/lategame pvt anyway? they are. with 1 stargate void ray opening, protoss never has to build any stalkers. much more potent army than stalker armies. if terran goes double reactored starport vikings then it's best to give up void ray production but it doesnt put protoss behind imo | ||
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