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The Caster Feedback Thread is a place to provide constructive criticism and give thanks to community casters. Please do not use this thread to needlessly whine and bash casters. Be mindful of this when you post. |
On April 10 2018 11:48 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2018 01:57 deacon.frost wrote:On April 09 2018 08:02 iNcontroL wrote:On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote:
There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times.
I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words. Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ? In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast. I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?" Even Redeye told this once somewhere - that in sports commentary they are not saying the obvious unless it's building the hype. Not sure how this works in US, but I've never heard a commentary in the form of "Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Alba! Alba to Pique, Pique to Alba, Alba to Messi" (etc.) Instead what I usually hear is "Barcelona have the ball, they keep the possession" or they don't mention anything and just leave the viewer to see it. I think it was said in the show with the marine who did the talkshow(Lycan? some form of vampire name, I believe  ) It would be nice to have sometimes the other way, not all the time listen to "we're talk until your ears fall off  " style Comparing starcraft commentary to football >_< I don't think that works. Look, the idea that a commentator can at times not say something and that is OK is not controversial and I agree. I think coming to a thread and saying all commentators need to always have conversational tones and breaks in their speech is silly. It's stylistic and a preference.. it's not an actual mechanical aspect of the craft that all commentators must adhere to. Like, literally you are arguing because they do it in football they should do it in sc2.. and presumably all commentary ever? I don't think that sounds reasonable. Anyways, this isn't a huge hot button subject and apparently wax thinks I am being mean so I will dial it back.
Question of curiosity iNcontrol, but what do YOU like to see for StarCraft casters?
I'd like to hear your opinion, seeing how you're actually a caster. Apologizes if you've been asked this before.
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On April 11 2018 06:51 DSK wrote:Just wanted to say that I was impressed with Coltarren's casting of the WCS NA qualifiers. He seemed very tired from what little I saw of it during the first day's proceedings (but then he did have to cast two +1 hour games in a row with the psychological attacks that are scans) but seemed to be greatly improved and rejuvenated for the second day. Very well done .
I didn't watch all his casting, but only caught his Avilo vs TheRiddler.
Oh man, I feel really sorry for him. Watching it was painful enough, but having to cast Avilo's games... Coltarren had literally nothing to say during the lategame. Turtlefests can be so boring when one side plays the Eternal Tortoise style of Avilo, but having to cast that drivel...
Coltarren, if you're reading this, you're my hero for casting that match. Respect to you.
edit: oh and true to his modus operandi, Avilo accused his opponent of hacking than proceeded to pause/ragequit.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 11 2018 13:26 Frudgey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2018 11:48 iNcontroL wrote:On April 10 2018 01:57 deacon.frost wrote:On April 09 2018 08:02 iNcontroL wrote:On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote:
There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times.
I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words. Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ? In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast. I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?" Even Redeye told this once somewhere - that in sports commentary they are not saying the obvious unless it's building the hype. Not sure how this works in US, but I've never heard a commentary in the form of "Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Alba! Alba to Pique, Pique to Alba, Alba to Messi" (etc.) Instead what I usually hear is "Barcelona have the ball, they keep the possession" or they don't mention anything and just leave the viewer to see it. I think it was said in the show with the marine who did the talkshow(Lycan? some form of vampire name, I believe ) It would be nice to have sometimes the other way, not all the time listen to "we're talk until your ears fall off " style Comparing starcraft commentary to football >_< I don't think that works. Look, the idea that a commentator can at times not say something and that is OK is not controversial and I agree. I think coming to a thread and saying all commentators need to always have conversational tones and breaks in their speech is silly. It's stylistic and a preference.. it's not an actual mechanical aspect of the craft that all commentators must adhere to. Like, literally you are arguing because they do it in football they should do it in sc2.. and presumably all commentary ever? I don't think that sounds reasonable. Anyways, this isn't a huge hot button subject and apparently wax thinks I am being mean so I will dial it back. Question of curiosity iNcontrol, but what do YOU like to see for StarCraft casters? I'd like to hear your opinion, seeing how you're actually a caster. Apologizes if you've been asked this before.
Nah I actually am never asked this, thank you for asking.
I don't have any one thing I prefer/like in a commentator but I guess I have realized I respect the hell out of a certain degree of polish. To be frank I wasn't the biggest fan of Kaelaris hosting 2 or so years ago but last year and this year he has entered a REALLY good form where I think he handles jokes well, transitions, has a lot of confidence and generally contributes without dominating. He is superb. I think a lot of it comes from his experience in heroes but also establishing himself and not needing to worry that he may not get a gig etc.. which is an interesting aspect that not all personalities have.
I also am of course very biased towards wit. If someone can take a moment and flawlessly commentate it but also compare it to previous events or tie it into a fun conversation I am usually very entertained and I enjoy that style. Tasteless can be top notch at this.
I like a lot of things but this is some of it.. I guess finally when a commentator is truly losing it and going berzerk with excitement but still commentating and keeping a good rhythm I get all wiggly and jiggly like the rest of us. DOTA 2 has a LOT of those level commentators/moments.
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Mahr casting for WCS challenge was cool. I didn't understand a thing because i don't speak german but it has nice flow of words and he was nice enough to follow Stephano's matches when we asked himm
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I think the casters, most of them, especially the ones from big events are really really good.
I would like to mention Roterdam as probably the most passionate caster out there. The guy is also a freaking human sc2 wikipedia, even better than liquipedia.
Other then that, Artosis/Tasteless are still the high level image of casting.
There were also 2 guys, Rapid and one more, who were casting the GSL finals. I was really impressed with their casting level. They were for me like a young Tastosis.
Happy with the current state of caster, even if I miss Apollo and Incontrol.
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On April 11 2018 14:54 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2018 13:26 Frudgey wrote:On April 10 2018 11:48 iNcontroL wrote:On April 10 2018 01:57 deacon.frost wrote:On April 09 2018 08:02 iNcontroL wrote:On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote:
There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times.
I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words. Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ? In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast. I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?" Even Redeye told this once somewhere - that in sports commentary they are not saying the obvious unless it's building the hype. Not sure how this works in US, but I've never heard a commentary in the form of "Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Alba! Alba to Pique, Pique to Alba, Alba to Messi" (etc.) Instead what I usually hear is "Barcelona have the ball, they keep the possession" or they don't mention anything and just leave the viewer to see it. I think it was said in the show with the marine who did the talkshow(Lycan? some form of vampire name, I believe ) It would be nice to have sometimes the other way, not all the time listen to "we're talk until your ears fall off " style Comparing starcraft commentary to football >_< I don't think that works. Look, the idea that a commentator can at times not say something and that is OK is not controversial and I agree. I think coming to a thread and saying all commentators need to always have conversational tones and breaks in their speech is silly. It's stylistic and a preference.. it's not an actual mechanical aspect of the craft that all commentators must adhere to. Like, literally you are arguing because they do it in football they should do it in sc2.. and presumably all commentary ever? I don't think that sounds reasonable. Anyways, this isn't a huge hot button subject and apparently wax thinks I am being mean so I will dial it back. Question of curiosity iNcontrol, but what do YOU like to see for StarCraft casters? I'd like to hear your opinion, seeing how you're actually a caster. Apologizes if you've been asked this before. Nah I actually am never asked this, thank you for asking. I don't have any one thing I prefer/like in a commentator but I guess I have realized I respect the hell out of a certain degree of polish. To be frank I wasn't the biggest fan of Kaelaris hosting 2 or so years ago but last year and this year he has entered a REALLY good form where I think he handles jokes well, transitions, has a lot of confidence and generally contributes without dominating. He is superb. I think a lot of it comes from his experience in heroes but also establishing himself and not needing to worry that he may not get a gig etc.. which is an interesting aspect that not all personalities have. I also am of course very biased towards wit. If someone can take a moment and flawlessly commentate it but also compare it to previous events or tie it into a fun conversation I am usually very entertained and I enjoy that style. Tasteless can be top notch at this. I like a lot of things but this is some of it.. I guess finally when a commentator is truly losing it and going berzerk with excitement but still commentating and keeping a good rhythm I get all wiggly and jiggly like the rest of us. DOTA 2 has a LOT of those level commentators/moments.
This is super interesting to hear about. Thanks for sharing that.
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On April 10 2018 06:39 WhiteSPiriT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2018 03:01 BisuDagger wrote:
I do agree with this. But I also understand how difficult it must be for tastosis. Even though they are full time casters so it would seem like their full time job is to know the finer details of builds, it is really hard to find time to learn it all for a couple reasons.
* They already have to study and remember facts about each players and their story lines
* They don't have the privilege of statisticians constantly handing them info like on ESPN casters
* They not only cast multiple events involving a hundred different players, but they also cast different games involving a whole set of other players
* They simply don't have the time to play the game like they used too before being full time casters
In my time as a caster, my biggest feedback from veteran players is that I play the game more so I understand the build orders. But if a Starcraft 1 game suddenly takes 40 minutes out of my day, then I lost time doing other things that could contribute to the cast. For a pair like tastosis it is harder then the standard Dota 2 or league caster because none of them are crossover casters in the same manner that tastosis is. And to be fair, even though DOTA and League have had changes/heroes added, it does not compare to the niches and meta shifts that happen every Blizzard patch. It's simply exhausting to think about how as an RTS caster you have to keep re-wiring your brain because a player who played 5 thousand games found a new way to define a matchup. It is really interesting to have the opinion of a caster on the subject. And I definetely agree that it's more easy to criticize something than actually understand the all work behind it. I'm a member of the french community, and at some point, a few years ago, a french pro-player that retired of the game, made a post that people discussed a lot on. He was mostly saying that being a caster is way more easier and forgiving than actually being a player that needs to practice everyday and have goods results. And it's a easier way to make monney, why ? Because it's easier to make a fan base, people know you because they hear you casting if they want to see a competition. Than having to build a stream as a pro player and make an audience + the practice you need. Obviously, I don't agree with this, because of the facts you pointed out. And I would even add, it needs a lot of work to be entertaining, or just speak properly live (as crazy as it sounds, it is actually complicated, but I'm sure you already know that ahah). That being said, I feel like, despite not playing the game as much as you want to, because you don't have the time, your game knowledge should improve a lot by just simply watch games. The more you see, the more you understand the meta, the builds, the timings ... Even tho you will be quite "meh" mechanically, your knowledge will be good. And that's something I feel quite a lot of casters are missing, and I really don't understand the why. Maybe this is such a complex game, that needs to be played everyday to be perfectly understood, no other way. I remember one time watching CatZ analysis, how amazed I was of how his analysis of the game was pushed, even things I never thought would matter in this game. It's quite a shame that we can't see more of that deepness in some casts. But thanks to put some light on the caster work, I don't have any friends or contacts doing it, so it really helps to see the other side and what it implies. EDIT : I didn't see the previous post, and to this I would just say quite the same thing, sure, you don't need the caster to go in full analysis mode for you to enjoy watching it. But I feel because of that, we still miss something that can be so much interesting, things that we don't even think of.
Thank you for the love <3
I do think that good analysis relies on understanding of the game which mostly just requires logical thinking and basic game knowledge, knowing the "meta" helps because it's easier to dissect thought when it's repeatedly done, you can more easily find out the reasons something works or doesn't work by seeing it play out many times.
With that said I have grown fond of the (perhaps somewhat unpopular) opinion that there is a co-relation between a lack of knowledge and legitimate excitement / hype. I think that some of the best "hype" casters or play-by-play casters can get more genuinely excited understanding "less", whereas for someone that understands - for example - who "should" win a fight, the outcome and build up to it should be less genuinely exciting as uncertainty is lower. Uncertainty creates anticipation and excitement whereas on the opposite end certainty just "is". If you hypothetically -knew- the outcome of any given situation there would be no excitement to be had leading up to it.
For these reasons I think that 1 Analyst + 1 Play-by-play is a great casting combo. The only pet peeve I personally have is when people or casters assert confidently to information that isn't logical or is outright false in the context of starcraft and surrounding factors like the meta. To make a clear example, if caster said "Roaches are always good vs immortals" that information is close to being flat out wrong, so the spreading of it would bug the shit out of me because I feel is deceitful to an audience that might have an interest in 'learning'. A lot of information is or isn't necessarily flat out wrong but some information with the ground-rules of the game, the goal and the paths layed out can be more or less 'correct'. So I love casters who shout really loud and get super excited even if sometimes they don't know shit, i'm all for it - I love to see genuine excitement, just so long as leave the analysis to the analysts or don't make claims to knowledge they don't posses. Tasteless is a brilliant dude who imo isn't always fully aware of what the meta looks like, and yet most of almost everything he says tends to have a logical foundation, he understands RTS and is imo one of if not the best at "translating" basic and complex concepts to an audience and making good sense of why things are the way they are, while leaving the great majority of the analysis to Artosis who actively plays and studies the game and it's landscape, this is part of why Tastosis is my favorite casting duo, they just complement each other extremely well - my favorite tasteless battlecry sums up most of what I've tried to explain here, it is simply: "I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ONNN!!!"
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I want to second the rotti hype because he really is the casters with the most knowledge and he can express it so well too
I also want to say thanks to Zombiegrub though for her female to contribution and her immense progress in casting skills during the last 6 months especially. I hope to see you at every WCS Curcuit event!
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I'd love to see more of Funka's casting at more events. His passion and energy are infectious; also a fan of his observing work.
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On April 23 2018 03:18 shadow111 wrote:
I want to second the rotti hype because he really is the casters with the most knowledge and he can express it so well too
I also want to say thanks to Zombiegrub though for her female to contribution and her immense progress in casting skills during the last 6 months especially. I hope to see you at every WCS Curcuit event!
Honestly I never really thought about how much I love Rotti until recently. That guy has so much passion, game skill, etc...truly remarkable.
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I love Rotti too, but sometimes he looks so stoned on camera. I'm not accusing him, and I think its because of his natural look.
He has this tired eyes look, akin to a stoner.
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I think Valdes is extremely underrated, which is almost a part of his style. He's got a great casting voice (he's one of the few guys who sounds like he might have done some vocal training, which EVERYONE who ever appears on TV or the radio should do), he always keeps the viewer informed of what's happening with good analysis without ever dominating the broadcast, and the fact he appears to speak near-fluent Korean is a cool bonus.
He's not a guy who will make you bust a gut laughing, or blow your mind with meta insight, or provide a crazy "hype" moment, but those are the things I like about him -- he just does his job extremely well and lets his partner go for style points. Him, along with Tasteless, are the two guys who I think you could put next to any other commentator and have the broadcast instantly work. (Although Tasteless obviously levels up when he's with Artosis.)
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Not sure if just me but I thought that the Korean PeopleImages Group was very well done. Great interviews and I loved the caster/pro pairing (triple cast was maybe a little too ambitious). Good Job, Rifkin! (assumming it was your idea) You're a great tournament organizer!
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On April 24 2018 17:11 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
I think Valdes is extremely underrated, which is almost a part of his style. He's got a great casting voice (he's one of the few guys who sounds like he might have done some vocal training, which EVERYONE who ever appears on TV or the radio should do), he always keeps the viewer informed of what's happening with good analysis without ever dominating the broadcast, and the fact he appears to speak near-fluent Korean is a cool bonus.
He's not a guy who will make you bust a gut laughing, or blow your mind with meta insight, or provide a crazy "hype" moment, but those are the things I like about him -- he just does his job extremely well and lets his partner go for style points. Him, along with Tasteless, are the two guys who I think you could put next to any other commentator and have the broadcast instantly work. (Although Tasteless obviously levels up when he's with Artosis.)
Valdes also one of my favorite casters. Just as you said. Seems really professional.
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Valdes casts pretty cool and he owns some good intonation. He also brings the necessary mood to focus on the match and his laughing is always acceptable and never overreacted. Mostly important he understands the game and could recognize a few movements ahead of the pro-s as most of the good casters do.
On the other side tho in GSL Code S especially both Tastosis leveled up a lot for the last two years. I remember many years ago when in some matches in Code S they were able to start some funny conversation and it shall continue through the whole match while something happens on the screen. Today they have found the good balance with the usual casting. And have to admit that the strategy analysis they make today are really the best in all SC/SC3 scene which amazes me. And yes, as some guy said before me Tasteless really levels up while casting with Artosis.
This is one of the reasons perhaps why Rapid looks not so comfortable whyle he was casting with anyone of Tastosis duo. Probably he needs another caster with whom he could eventually assemble a good balanced team. Laughing and humour are essential. But overreacting could kill the initial reason why we observe RTS games.
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This surprises me, I think Valdes is one of the worst casters out there, since he never reflects the situation of the game and more or less only describes what we can see and what he sees. I expect from a caster to go more into depth of the situation and elaborate on what certain situations mean for the game. Valdes never does this, his commentary is very one dimensional.
When you take Artosis for example, he elaborates on roles of units and special situations. He also speaks about how openings pan out on different maps and how playstyles of different players collide. One of the very best WCS Casters is Pig for the same reason I mentioned before.
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I hope everyone enjoyed WCS Austin! It was my first WCS event and I'd love to hear any thoughts or feedback.
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On June 06 2018 00:00 RAPiDCasting wrote:
I hope everyone enjoyed WCS Austin! It was my first WCS event and I'd love to hear and thoughts or feedback.
Let other casters talk a bit more and you will be fine 
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On April 23 2018 12:44 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
I love Rotti too, but sometimes he looks so stoned on camera. I'm not accusing him, and I think its because of his natural look.
He has this tired eyes look, akin to a stoner.
haha this isn't a bad thing D:
I have fond memories when videogames were about basement kids doing what they love, before all that fuzz with shirts suits and sponsors, it's good that people stay a bit different when possible
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The Tastosis cast in this day's GSL - Maru vs Rogue and Classic vs ByuN - was not quite as usual. It seems as if Tasteless is trying a slightly different style. I like it!
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EPT
