The Caster Feedback Thread is a place to provide constructive criticism and give thanks to community casters. Please do not use this thread to needlessly whine and bash casters. Be mindful of this when you post.
I'll start by saying that there's too much negativity in the gaming community, the SC2 community, and the internet in general, which is why I'm treading carefully here.
That said, one of the casters (I won't say which region he's in, or how long he's been on the scene) is driving me absolutely up the wall, to the point where matches I should LOVE watching end up being only okay, and I end up not watching good matches when I know he's on the desk.
I want to vent about this guy, and maybe find some people to vent with me, and since this is a small community, maybe get some improvements, but at the same time, I don't want to be some internet jerk crapping on a dude working hard and trying his best in a tough industry.
I mean, I wish the guy the best in his life and congratulate him on the success he's had, but his casting is becoming an issue that's making the game worse for me, and might be doing the same for others. TL, what's the right thing to do here?
I guess it would depend on where you post your criticism. For example, here on TL, we have strict moderation and we always set forth guidelines that people need to meet when starting criticism threads.
If you were to post in reddit or the Blizzard forums, then it'd be a bit more laid back and forgiving in terms of moderation and what you're allowed to say,
If you want to provide constructive criticism on a certain caster here on TL, you are more than welcome to do that. I just can't guarantee that the thread will remain open long since we always shut things down before they get out of hand.
There's a difference between subjectivity and objectivity in this matter.
If a caster repeatedly says wrong stuff or always makes mistakes, you can say that it's objectively bad casting. If you don't like a caster because of how he talks or what he talks about, it's subjective but you also have a right to say it.
For instance some casters aren't bad casters per se, but i find some extremely annoying and/or unfunny to the point where i sometimes find myself muting the stream. I'm not going to start threads about it because i know it's subjective, but i may mention it in the thread related to the matches they cast and i don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
There are a couple of casters I feel that way about. If you are honest, constructive, and thoughtful in your criticism then I don't see a problem with it. As long as you are expressing yourself in an adult manner it could end up being better for the community and that caster if he/she listens and grows from it. Also, to truly get a perspective - try casting a game for yourself, by yourself in the comfort of your home...seriously try to fill up the space with good commentary....It's hard!
I usually mute lol streams because I can't stand the majority of the casters. NA has a few decent ones but EU casters/analyst all around are permamuted. Same with LCK. As for Sc2 though, the only caster atm that i avoid is one particular one because he seems to get way too angry and power hungry. I don't support him.
On July 23 2017 15:13 blardoh wrote: I usually mute lol streams because I can't stand the majority of the casters. NA has a few decent ones but EU casters/analyst all around are permamuted. Same with LCK. As for Sc2 though, the only caster atm that i avoid is one particular one because he seems to get way too angry and power hungry. I don't support him.
On July 23 2017 11:48 Integra wrote: Start your own casting career, earn 2 million and then buyout the bastard from the scene with the money!
thread solved. :D
p.s. kudos to OP for finding a way to feel things out without attacking anybody yet.
Also, I feel that it would be cool for all casters to open their own dedicated, separate theads: one for support, where people can write 'thanks' or highlight some gems. And then the other, Criticism thread, where the caster can enter when he feels he's ready to take on some criticism and perhaps improve what he's doing. I also feel that having a Criticism thread would automatically take some of the sting out from posts that might otherwise be 'h8er posts'.
On July 23 2017 13:15 DIngoDog wrote: Also, to truly get a perspective - try casting a game for yourself, by yourself in the comfort of your home...seriously try to fill up the space with good commentary....It's hard!
Completely agreed with this. Speaking almost constantly while saying actually meaningful things without simply giving a radio play-by-play of what's happening on the screen is pretty tough. It's tough enough for a single (decently long) match, let alone an entire series or day's worth of casting.
And let's be clear here: this isn't the infant days of GSL Code A anymore, whose (at the time) amateur talent couldn't stop shouting over each other and making bold, incorrect predictions all the time. Pretty much all casters these days have a baseline level of competency that should be expected of a game that's been a big deal competitively for 7 years.
So as a result, most of the "criticism" is really just "I don't like your voice" or "I don't like your accent" or "I don't like the way you (over)use these words" or "I don't like the kind of jokes you make". And that's give or take, always. They're stylistic things (I would call them choices but in many cases they're probably subconscious or otherwise just part of who that person is) that don't necessarily have a flaw of some kind, and how you gel with them will depend entirely on personal preference. And even if there is some kind of small underlying flaw, 99.99% of SC2 fans do not have the broadcasting or perhaps speech therapy qualifications to be able to identify and articulate what that is and how to fix it.
Anyway... I love iNcontroL's humour. Some people hate it. If he chose to listen to their completely subjective "criticism", all that would do is change who loves it and who hates it. Maybe they would love it then, and I would hate it instead. And sure, on a strictly theoretical level, you could possibly try out so many permutations until you find the one that the maximum number of people love, but it would still leave a large minority of people who hate it, so what's the fucking point?
You people are weird... Starcraft has literally the best casters by a huge margin compared to other esports. When you have masters, grand masters and former pro players commentating, heck I want to hear what they have to say even if they're goofy sometimes.
You only need to compare what we have to something like CS:GO where you have a bunch of nobodies who never played a high level game in their life talking about things they barely comprehend. Aside from a few ex-pro analysts, their casting scene is comprised by complete amateurs. In SC2 we have people who put thousands of hours and with real ingame knowledge casting. I personally think it doesn't get any better than this. And when we have Homestory Cup it goes even beyond that with current pro's themselves commentating. I think it's great!
I have this issue with a particular guy who seems to be loved by pretty much everyone else in the community but I just find him really annoying and feel like he actually gets a lot of stuff wrong. It's a shame because the person he casts with is awesome and witty but I can't bring myself to endure the other 50% of the cast. My solution is just to watch the Korean stream and enjoy the extra hype those casters bring.
I had the same issue last night while watching HSC - had to mute the stream many times when Incontrol made fart noises, talked unrelated trash and made stupid jokes. Gotta step it up from kindergarten level, we're not 10 years old..
On July 23 2017 17:18 RandomPlayer wrote: I had the same issue last night while watching HSC - had to mute the stream many times when Incontrol made fart noises, talked unrelated trash and made stupid jokes. Gotta step it up from kindergarten level, we're not 10 years old..
fartnoises where played by the producer not incontrol.
I think it is just natural that casters make sometimes wrong calls and it is no sign of beeing out of knowlege. you can see at HSC where aktiv pros the best foreigners cast and make wrong predictions
On July 23 2017 13:15 DIngoDog wrote: Also, to truly get a perspective - try casting a game for yourself, by yourself in the comfort of your home...seriously try to fill up the space with good commentary....It's hard!
Completely agreed with this. Speaking almost constantly while saying actually meaningful things without simply giving a radio play-by-play of what's happening on the screen is pretty tough.
This is exactly why I'm always undecided whether to mute the stream or not.
I don't WANT people speaking constantly. I'm not a fucking addicts to noise. I want you to say something when you think/feel there's something to say! I don't want a noise machine. I want words to have meaning, and casters words go thru inflation effect if he talks jibberish to fill the 'voids'. It's called silence, it's not a void. Well timed breaks or pauses, or simply 'periods of not talking' are crucial for good casting, as it gives contrast, and gives more impact to the actual spoken words. But unluckily, in mainstream society, silence is often equated to awkwardness. People need to read more Eckhart Tolle stuff and $hit, meditate etc.
Agreed. In general, people hate a lack of noise, they want to be told when to be excited, upset etc. How many sports do people watch with zero commentary?
Home Story commentary is refreshing since it is pro's who are commentating and when the game is obviously over, they tend to call it (and when they get it wrong, it just goes to show how off pro's opinions can be, even with perfect vision).
Sometimes it can be nice to watch a game in silence, it means I can form my own opinions about how the game is progressing, what players are doing right and wrong etc. Overall though, I much prefer a beer or two while watching a series with professional commentators...thinking is down to a minimum and I can sit and relax.
I think there's a line that is easily crossed on both sides. There are casters who love the game and there are casters who just don't. There are casters who balance whine and there are casters who don't. There are casters who know their shit and there are casters who don't.
Presumably if the criticism stems from the caster doing something reprehensible, it shouldn't be a problem. But then people (or at least me) tend to dislike the casters for having done these things and they may in the future cross the line and criticize them for things that don't really make sense due to that dislike.
On the other side someone like Artosis has earned so much good will out of me that he could cast for a year with zero knowledge of the game and tournament and I probably wouldn't find a criticism to be legitimate.
On July 23 2017 11:10 FataLe wrote: There is absolutely nothing wrong with moletrap.
That's like, our opinion, maaaan. People stated "there is nothing wrong with 2GD" as well, in the Dota community, now we don't see him anymore because there was something wrong with him even though people said he was perfect, Valve fired him on the spot.
Personal opinion =\= fact.:D
Be constructive, that's all, that should be a given, just so that's stated.
On July 23 2017 17:18 RandomPlayer wrote: I had the same issue last night while watching HSC - had to mute the stream many times when Incontrol made fart noises, talked unrelated trash and made stupid jokes. Gotta step it up from kindergarten level, we're not 10 years old..
Rly? I mean... HSC was always about lay down on couch, cast some great games and having fun, its not like WCS where you have to wear suit,tie, armani shoes etc... cmon dude even production where trolling hard and commercial pause was filled with Hey GreyFace GreyFace Hey song... like there is enough hits for you already... yet u call it stupid =)
On July 23 2017 18:55 riotjune wrote: Silence is AWKWARD. The more people blather on and on about shit, the BETTER.
Currently , words fill up like at least 85% of time. I'd like it reduced to like 70%.
On July 23 2017 19:03 maddogmcgee wrote: Agreed. In general, people hate a lack of noise, they want to be told when to be excited, upset etc. How many sports do people watch with zero commentary?
That's one of the things I love about watching tennis. It's a beautiful mix of seeing with your own eyes what's going on, and then hearing an opinion of the pro or caster.
But, the bottom line of my opinion, I don't like jibberish filler sentences. If you have something to say, you can talk 100% of the time. If you don't, don't. Maybe casting isn't for everyone, and we need better talkers in some cases.
Yeah, I just mute streams. Like B-Stream on HSC yesterday, when the girl with the aweful vioce was on, or whenever I am at risk to be exposed to kaelaris terrible, terrible accent.
On July 23 2017 13:07 rapidtransit247 wrote: Just @ me
I understand that casting is incredibly difficult and I appreciate and admire the effort you put in, but I do have a major issue with your casting style. You constantly and unapologetically use fancy words improperly or in the wrong connotation during casts. It has become so annoying that I just listen to the Korean SSL cast instead. You're doing great things for SC, but this habit is just a deal breaker for me. I doubt you're trying to prove some intellectual superiority, but I always thought spoken language should be kept as simple as possible so that no one feels excluded (strangely I never felt the same way about written language). The fact that you throw words out there with little regard for whether or not they are being used properly strikes me as careless. On top of that, they are no better at illustrating your point than simpler words used with more precision.
On July 23 2017 17:18 RandomPlayer wrote: I had the same issue last night while watching HSC - had to mute the stream many times when Incontrol made fart noises, talked unrelated trash and made stupid jokes. Gotta step it up from kindergarten level, we're not 10 years old..
Sorry but if you dont like this then you have no humor. Have nothing to do with kindergarten level. Is just fun and he make it only at Homestorycup. Look some games at GSL Artosis and tasteless. Tasteless have in 80% of all games no idea wahts goin on. They miss or ignore drops waht the observer show. Tasteless talks only trash and Artosis laughs over everything. And people say this are the best casters? Never If you hear over and over again the same caster you see ther weakness. I think is is why so many people hate casters. you dont like ther voice how they laughs or other little things. Over the years you hate it more and more. Is the same with casters in Football or TV. For me i like casts from progamers. because you can trust them waht they say. And any of then have different Experience with the game.
On July 23 2017 18:41 niteReloaded wrote: Well timed breaks or pauses, or simply 'periods of not talking' are crucial for good casting, as it gives contrast, and gives more impact to the actual spoken words.
Agreed! USA casting seems to be especially fond of constant talking. I've never been all that fond of it, but I've gotten used to it over the years.
On July 23 2017 19:03 maddogmcgee wrote: How many sports do people watch with zero commentary?
I assume you mean commentary over the action? The Wimbledon Gentlemen's Singles Final is watched by roughly 1 in 6 in the UK. I think the tennis at Wimbledon is a magnificent example of perfect zen balance in commentary: when the ball is in the air, there is no talking; everyone in front of the telly or in the stadium just admires the play in silence, you only hear the ball and the players. Once the point is over there is commentary and applause. (Premature ooohs and aaahs from the crowd during play have unfortunately become more common over recent years, following the US Open trend. I still think it's somewhat rude.) It creates a natural tension for every point. In the few seconds awaiting the serve, the silence almost feels like holding your breath. Now tennis of course lends itself perfectly to this type of casting with its natural alternation of active and inactive moments. However, I think there are lessons to be learnt: for one, excitement and tension are not to be confused! Excitement is for a tournament, for a match, for a particular player ahead of time. It's the hype. During a match you need tension: you don't know what is going to happen and you watch mesmerized until you are released by the actions that unfold in front of your eyes.
In SC2, most of the early game is calm build-up, through which the casters should absolutely podcast themselves with their extensive knowledge of the professional scene, joke around a bit, plug some upcoming event etc. Silence would indeed be awkward as there is usually no tension. You are often watching predictable macro, so you need something to keep yourself occupied. Some casters are great at this phase of the game, others not so much. Some viewers might consider this an important skill for a caster, others not so much. In a discussion like this it's important to keep these two evaluations separated. When it comes to the big moments in the game, tension is what you're looking for, not excitement. Unfortunately the most common approach is rapidly shoutcasting your way through the battle. The advantage of this method is that the volume of the stream will let me know when I should stop whatever I'm doing for a moment and pay full attention to the stream. Another approach could be to get the viewer hyped (excitement) leading up to the battle: "This engagement is going to be absolutely crucial. Can Dark close out the game right here, right now?! Let's see it. Here he comes...", then a 'hold-your-breath' silence (tension) during the battle, where one can observe the pure art of combat as it happens, followed by a short analysis of who came out ahead and why (reflection). I apologise to the vision-impaired esports fans, but if you can actually see what is happening, I personally would rather not have my senses overloaded by a radio-style broadcast that is a literal description of what is shown on the screen. In contrast, in CS:GO there is usually a lot of stuff happening off-screen, especially during bomb site executes. Some casters are really good at *not* watching the on-screen action during these executes, but instead focussing on the minimap and the kills in the top right, so that as a viewer you *can* watch the first person on-screen action, while staying updated on everything else. Here I do like the casters talking through the battle.
In conclusion, I feel silence is underused in esports casting as a tool to create tension rather than excitement. There are many styles of casting used in many different (e)sports that might suit different moments in a game and that can appeal to different viewerships (Day9 vs Husky debate). A caster should be aware of his role in creating tension or excitement and try to serve the viewer all the ingredients for emotions, which can paradoxically be both joy and disappointment at the same time based on which side a particular viewer is rooting for. Also it's a casters job to keep the viewer informed, especially about significant things that are not apparent (i.e. upgrade differences) or that are happening off-screen. All of this comes together in the form of a caster's name and fame and we all have our opinions and preferences, but I believe there certainly are objective differences in casting skills that go beyond style.
PS: niteReloaded, you sniped me on the tennis comparison while I was writing this awh the long posts...
On July 23 2017 21:32 Sihrtogg wrote: Unfortunately the most common approach is rapidly shoutcasting your way through the battle.
I agree and I dislike this approach. Kinda like having a hunch "this situation could surely have been done in a better way!". Although not knowing exactly how that way looks.
I think a good recipe is for the casters to allow themselves to be more spontaneous, and less playing safe. Especially in smaller tournaments. That way they can 'find' their authentic style, and then scale it up to bigger tournaments once they are confident in it.
On July 23 2017 13:15 DIngoDog wrote: Also, to truly get a perspective - try casting a game for yourself, by yourself in the comfort of your home...seriously try to fill up the space with good commentary....It's hard!
Completely agreed with this. Speaking almost constantly while saying actually meaningful things without simply giving a radio play-by-play of what's happening on the screen is pretty tough.
This is exactly why I'm always undecided whether to mute the stream or not.
I don't WANT people speaking constantly. I'm not a fucking addicts to noise. I want you to say something when you think/feel there's something to say! I don't want a noise machine. I want words to have meaning, and casters words go thru inflation effect if he talks jibberish to fill the 'voids'. It's called silence, it's not a void. Well timed breaks or pauses, or simply 'periods of not talking' are crucial for good casting, as it gives contrast, and gives more impact to the actual spoken words. But unluckily, in mainstream society, silence is often equated to awkwardness. People need to read more Eckhart Tolle stuff and $hit, meditate etc.
I was gonna point this out myself but then i saw this. Completely agree with this, none-stop talk IS BAD CASTING. This should be considdered objective to.
No one talks none-stop irl, infact, if someone do, you would feel he is annoying. RIGHT? So this none-stop talk when commentating truly suck and i mute the stream as well when it happens. Yet so many do this, i cant believe it really.
In SC2, most of the early game is calm build-up, through which the casters should absolutely podcast themselves with their extensive knowledge of the professional scene, joke around a bit, plug some upcoming event etc. Silence would indeed be awkward as there is usually no tension.
Nothing wrong here aswell to be silence even in a moment like this. Be silent, observe what is happening. We see with out own eyes aswell. In fact, it would be healthy to not none-stop talk in this sitation aswell.
Also, arent many commentators in this scenario NOT TALKING ABOUT THE GAME as well? If you arent talking about the game, then be quiet.
"3rax build, marine/marauder with stim", he scouted the zergs 3rd hatchery. Zerg is going zerglings/roaches. "Lets see what happens" - Moment of silence here. See what happens, then commentate that. But here, in this scenario its none-stop talk either way.
I wish the commentators got a good education in how to commentate. Because they all lack it imo. EVERY commentator lacks
Holy fuck the witch hunt for casters is still on? :D I used to follow Sc2 in WoL times and it was the same then. Personally all I really care about is that the observer is going a good job and the casters do not have an annoying voice to the point where I have to mute.
The answer is no. If they ask for feedback then you can suggest improvements, but try to be nice about it. Think about people from your own life whose advice you respect. You'll probably find that they err on the side of being too nice, not too harsh.
But yeah, if you don't enjoy someone's work, don't watch it. A lot of it just comes down to personal preference anyway and casters can't please everyone.
What do you mean critisize a caster ? They are supreme beings of perfection. If you think there is something wrong with ones casting, clearly the problem is in you.
On July 23 2017 22:10 KrOjah wrote: Holy fuck the witch hunt for casters is still on? :D I used to follow Sc2 in WoL times and it was the same then. Personally all I really care about is that the observer is going a good job and the casters do not have an annoying voice to the point where I have to mute.
Good for you.
It's the equivalent of saying you don't give a shit about how food tastes, as long as it has nutrients.
People have different standards, you are obviously very non-demanding when it comes to casting, which is, like I said, good for you.
On July 23 2017 22:58 Lightrush wrote: What do you mean critisize a caster ? They are supreme beings of perfection. If you think there is something wrong with ones casting, clearly the problem is in you.
On July 23 2017 16:56 tomatriedes wrote: feel like he actually gets a lot of stuff wrong. It's a shame because the person he casts with is awesome and witty but I can't bring myself to endure the other 50% of the cast. My solution is just to watch the Korean stream and enjoy the extra hype those casters bring.
if u can list his errors and state objectively why they're wrong you might gain some traction. just saying you "feel like" he is saying wrong stuff is not enough.
Broadcast duos often consist of an "Analyst Guy" and the "Colour Commentator".
if he is the "colour guy" then it might not matter that he makes some errors in analysis. As the "colour guy" his job is to excitedly yell at the right times and make silly metaphors.
The "colour guy" might even be making the errors intentionally so the analyst guy can correct him and explain some things to the audience about SC2. who knows.
Judging a "colour guy" is super subjective. If a huge majority of the audience thinks he is great.. then he is great. Judging a "colour commentator" is so subjective that the overall perception of the audience is reality.
i suspect one reason TL frowns upon caster bashing is that judging colour commentators is so subjective and it just ends in a giant shit show.
On July 23 2017 22:45 evolsiefil wrote: this thread has got to be about nathanias right? guy is probably the worst caster in history. biased, repetitive, annoying and simply horrible.
Years ago, i thought Nathanias was a below average caster. He has improved substantially over the years and Nathanias is good now.
Dedicated professionals often change, develop, and improve over time. Years ago had you stated your misgivings about Nathanias in an objective, non-personal way he might have been able to use those criticisms to improve. Saying stuff like "simply horrible" is too vague to be actionable by Nathanias; it sounds like the immature personal attack of someone who chronologically may be an adult however, they are processing reality through the eyes of a 12 year old.
On July 24 2017 00:32 ejozl wrote: Casters and viewers criticize players all day, I don't know why casters and viewers get so defensive when talking about casters.
Well I think what it comes down to is that when we watch a pro game, we always have access to all the information pretty much and all of a sudden players' mistakes are obvious and clear cut, there is no debating them. He didn't scout here, he expanded too late, he made too many marauders, he didn't micro well enough etc. And to be fair, while it's all true, it's never helpful to a player because they know this. It's not like they make these mistakes because they don't know, but rather due to pressure, poor focus in the moment, making the wrong assumptions, taking the wrong risks etc.
When it comes to "criticizing" casters, 90% of that is purely subjective.
On July 23 2017 22:10 KrOjah wrote: Holy fuck the witch hunt for casters is still on? :D I used to follow Sc2 in WoL times and it was the same then. Personally all I really care about is that the observer is going a good job and the casters do not have an annoying voice to the point where I have to mute.
Good for you.
It's the equivalent of saying you don't give a shit about how food tastes, as long as it has nutrients.
People have different standards, you are obviously very non-demanding when it comes to casting, which is, like I said, good for you.
On July 23 2017 22:58 Lightrush wrote: What do you mean critisize a caster ? They are supreme beings of perfection. If you think there is something wrong with ones casting, clearly the problem is in you.
xD
Yeah totally, I will be honest and in general (even though I watch a ton of competitive sports) commentators/casters are not really that big a deal for me. I just find it a little comical the amount of whining/criticizing that comes out from this game's community on caster performance.
On July 24 2017 00:48 KrOjah wrote: Yeah totally, I will be honest and in general (even though I watch a ton of competitive sports) commentators/casters are not really that big a deal for me. I just find it a little comical the amount of whining/criticizing that comes out from this game's community on caster performance.
i think caster calls make a big difference... from Tom Cheek's "touch'em all Joe" to Vin Scully's "i dont believe what i just saw"... iconic moments in baseball history. John Madden has his name on one of EA's top titles. Great broadcasting versus lousy broadcasting makes a big difference in the viewing experience of competitive sports and esports. Thus, I can understand the large amount of commenting about the commentators.
Commentaries simply boil down to personality. Just as you get along with certain people more than others. I say just enjoy it and not take it for granted. TBH if the match is really that good, you don't really hear them anyway.
Well the game itself has settled into a very bland meta to be honest. It doesn't matter who is commentating when every game is the same. I honestly feel sorry for them sometimes, I don't think I've ever seen SC2 so predictable.
On July 24 2017 00:48 KrOjah wrote: Yeah totally, I will be honest and in general (even though I watch a ton of competitive sports) commentators/casters are not really that big a deal for me. I just find it a little comical the amount of whining/criticizing that comes out from this game's community on caster performance.
i think caster calls make a big difference... from Tom Cheek's "touch'em all Joe" to Vin Scully's "i dont believe what i just saw"... iconic moments in baseball history. John Madden has his name on one of EA's top titles. Great broadcasting versus lousy broadcasting makes a big difference in the viewing experience of competitive sports and esports. Thus, I can understand the large amount of commenting about the commentators.
Well I know the post from the other guy who quoted me was laced with attempted elitism, but I agree with you kind of. I think casting can definitely be entertaining, but to actually analyze a game? I would probably want to download the replays packs. Same with other sports, I would prefer to watch live to learn, rather than view it on TV.
before i say this , i just wanna say rapid oscillates between god tier, mortal and unwatchable constantly
best casters list:
god tier 1. tasteless
-----------
mere mortals 1. incontrol 2. chill 3. artosis 4. nathanias 5. the screams of moletrap 6. the scream moletrap did that one time that toss lost his army to the nuke 7. wolf 8. khaldor 9. moletrap
-----------
totally unwatchable 1. zombiegrub (has improved, at this point the worst thing about her is she co-casts with rifkin) 2. rifkin (i have thought long and hard about how this person could make starcraft less fun to watch, and i am totally at a loss. hey welcome to sc2 match herp da derp here listen to me plug 15 different events all during the build order/scouting phase of the game. herp let me never talk about this videogame that I am being compensated to discuss herp)
I think you can but don't expect them to read it. The quality of someone's casting can be heavily affected by the mood you're in. Accepting criticism, even if it's phrased very kindly, can mess with your head during or before a broadcast so a lot of casters avoid it, sometimes entirely.
Sometimes when you word something somewhat kindly it also will be interpreted the wrong way because casters, personalities and players are constantly dealing with people trying to take jabs at them. You develop something of an over-sensitivity to those kinds of backhanded comments after a while that aren't intended to provide actual criticism, but to just put you down. Likewise, I think fans of certain commentators/personalities/players begin to feel the same. I am a huge fan of a lot of NA players and I know I sometimes get overly defensive when people criticize some of them because it's an oversensitivity I've developed.
Also keep in mind that casters won't always listen to the criticism not because they don't care what you have to say but they don't agree with it. And I don't mean in a "your opinion doesn't matter" kinda way but just that casting is a subjective thing and ultimately every caster is chasing "their vision" of what a caster should be. Sometimes they'll make decisions about their casting you don't agree with because that's what fits their image more, even if it doesn't fit yours.
Combine all that with effective criticism being hard to give as well as hard to take and it becomes really hard to give criticism for a commentator without someone reacting negatively.
Thread has been renamed. From now on, all constructive criticism and feedback toward casters will go here. This thread will be moderated and watched carefully so be wary of what you post!
I think a big thing is how much of the game the caster spends trying to bring attention to himself/put himself "over," whether it's with jokes, memes, endlessly complex metaphors, or whatever. I'm not saying casters should be robots, just that some guys (including/especially the one I started the thread about) think of it as the [Blank] improv show featuring a Starcraft game rather than a Starcraft game they're adding to with some analysis and humor where appropriate
Tasteosis can get away with a lot of stuff other casters can't, IMO, because:
1) They're both natural in the booth at this point and secure enough so they're never talking over each other
2) They are legit best friends and have incredible chemistry, which is infectious -- they'll break out an extended running joke that would seem so stupid if I wrote it out here, but manage to make it work because they genuinely think each other are hilarious, and it's tough to not enjoy that positive energy.
2) Artosis knows more about what's happening in Starcraft/the KR meta better than any English-speaker alive, including pros, and can get analysis about a build or a strategy off seamlessly at any time "Oh, this is the Blink strat Inca pulled out in Olimoleague 2012, this is meant to punish 3-medivac marine timings." When you're an encyclopedia like that, you can save a lot of time on how much you need to analyze the game.
3) Tasteless lets Artosis do the specific stuff, but his understanding of Starcraft and RTS in general is strong, and he gets how to convey those ideas in plain english. It can get a bit annoying for high-level players or long-time watchers, I suppose, but I actually still enjoy it after all these years and it's great for new watchers. He doesn't feel the need to prove he's the smartest guy about SC2 at all times, which makes him a great fit next to Artosis.
Anyways, the point here is that Tasteosis' chemistry and knowledge makes them the best team in SC2, but guys get in trouble when they try to copy certain aspects of their style, because without that chemistry and knowledge things just get cringey, and it would be better to just give out the facts with a sprinkling of analysis and humor instead of trying to capture the "best friends talking about a Starcraft game, and a mic happens to be there" vibe.
On July 24 2017 01:30 Seeker wrote: Thread has been renamed. From now on, all constructive criticism and feedback toward casters will go here. This thread will be moderated and watched carefully so be wary of what you post!
Maybe put this or a similar note into the OP as well? Might be useful for someone finding this thread later on.
On July 23 2017 22:07 Foxxan wrote:Also, arent many commentators in this scenario NOT TALKING ABOUT THE GAME as well? If you arent talking about the game, then be quiet.
I'm sorry if I misunderstand the double negation here, but I actually like this and recommend this for casters. There's very little to enjoy visually in the early game if everything is standard. I'd rather have a laugh with Tastosis over some retro ninja turtle reference or learn about the history of the players with Wolf or get an update on upcoming events with Rifkin, than to be bored with nothing but an endlessly repetitive opening game.
On July 23 2017 22:07 Foxxan wrote:Also, arent many commentators in this scenario NOT TALKING ABOUT THE GAME as well? If you arent talking about the game, then be quiet.
I'm sorry if I misunderstand the double negation here, but I actually like this and recommend this for casters. There's very little to enjoy visually in the early game if everything is standard. I'd rather have a laugh with Tastosis over some retro ninja turtle reference or learn about the history of the players with Wolf or get an update on upcoming events with Rifkin, than to be bored with nothing but an endlessly repetitive opening game.
Keep in mind that knowing your audience matters. What may be a standard, boring opener may be ok to not talk about for a smaller, more niche broadcast. But when it comes to bigger events and things like grand finals, etc. that even Tastosis cuts down a lot on the jokes because it becomes more likely that you have people who don't know the game or the meta tuning in and those explanations become helpful. Starcraft has so much stuff happening every second of the game that if you aren't familiar with the game or the meta, even just talking about what things on the screen to pay attention to can be very useful for people who have not been keeping up.
Terran whine has no limits has it? Now whining about casters.
Why use the mute button? Why refrain from watching the casters you don't like? No, let's ask them to stop casting because i don't like them. Literaly the femminists of SC2
I like all SC2 casters right now and love some of them. Come to think of it there was only one caster i really disliked and he is no longer in SC, nor any other game i think.
On July 24 2017 01:30 Seeker wrote: Thread has been renamed. From now on, all constructive criticism and feedback toward casters will go here. This thread will be moderated and watched carefully so be wary of what you post!
thx for keeping this thread open and being willing to devote moderation resources to the topic. it will probably turn out to be a pretty thankless task.
Wolf is really good, well rounded, decent humor and good game knowledge
Valdez needs to film himself or at least listen to himself objectively, his humor is mega awkward and usually badly timed, he also comes off as extremely negative alot of the times. He has good game knowledge but I often hear him just reiterating what Wolf said but less eloquently and more cringey.
ZombieGrub is good I don't understand the hate she gets, for a girl she really knows what she's talking about, honestly Rifkin is the worst caster ever, mediocre game knowledge combined with maximum cringe mode side humor/commentary.
On July 24 2017 02:46 jpg06051992 wrote: Wolf is really good, well rounded, decent humor and good game knowledge
Valdez needs to film himself or at least listen to himself objectively, his humor is mega awkward and usually badly timed, he also comes off as extremely negative alot of the times. He has good game knowledge but I often hear him just reiterating what Wolf said but less eloquently and more cringey.
ZombieGrub is good I don't understand the hate she gets, for a girl she really knows what she's talking about, honestly Rifkin is the worst caster ever, mediocre game knowledge combined with maximum cringe mode side humor/commentary.
On July 24 2017 02:46 jpg06051992 wrote:ZombieGrub is good I don't understand the hate she gets, for a girl she really knows what she's talking about
is this a triple entedre reverse psychology counter-troll?
i think when assessing a caster you must consider the production resources at their disposal. A person casting with a team of 8 people handling every aspect of the production for a 2 hour show has everything going in their favour for creating a solid show/cast. OTOH, in the early days of BTTV you had 2 people handling everything doing 12 hour broadcasts. You're going to get rough spots under those conditions. ZombieGrub and Rifkin aren't going to provide John Madden level commentary for every minute of a 12 hour extended marathon.
On July 24 2017 02:46 jpg06051992 wrote: Wolf is really good, well rounded, decent humor and good game knowledge
Valdez needs to film himself or at least listen to himself objectively, his humor is mega awkward and usually badly timed, he also comes off as extremely negative alot of the times. He has good game knowledge but I often hear him just reiterating what Wolf said but less eloquently and more cringey.
ZombieGrub is good I don't understand the hate she gets, for a girl she really knows what she's talking about, honestly Rifkin is the worst caster ever, mediocre game knowledge combined with maximum cringe mode side humor/commentary.
"for a girl"
really?
Esports is heavily male, starcraft is nearly 100% male, for any woman to be compared to other casters REQUIRES one to examine the fact that she has a GLARING biological difference, that's how data works. Just because someone calls someone what they are does not make it sexist. This is not a liberal arts campus, calm down.
I have no opinion on ZG casting. I stopped watching BTTV when they started getting preachy.
On July 24 2017 02:46 jpg06051992 wrote: Wolf is really good, well rounded, decent humor and good game knowledge
Valdez needs to film himself or at least listen to himself objectively, his humor is mega awkward and usually badly timed, he also comes off as extremely negative alot of the times. He has good game knowledge but I often hear him just reiterating what Wolf said but less eloquently and more cringey.
ZombieGrub is good I don't understand the hate she gets, for a girl she really knows what she's talking about, honestly Rifkin is the worst caster ever, mediocre game knowledge combined with maximum cringe mode side humor/commentary.
"for a girl"
really?
Esports is heavily male, starcraft is nearly 100% male, for any woman to be compared to other casters REQUIRES one to examine the fact that she has a GLARING biological difference, that's how data works. Just because someone calls someone what they are does not make it sexist. This is not a liberal arts campus, calm down.
I have no opinion on ZG casting. I stopped watching BTTV when they started getting preachy.
Just curious, when/how did BTTV get preachy? Didn't get to see this as I personally stopped following them the moment they started promoting a website that allows for the selling of stolen game keys and extorts its customers. Also their mods ban you in their chat if you point out how that website hurts developers' livelihoods.
On July 24 2017 02:46 jpg06051992 wrote: Wolf is really good, well rounded, decent humor and good game knowledge
Valdez needs to film himself or at least listen to himself objectively, his humor is mega awkward and usually badly timed, he also comes off as extremely negative alot of the times. He has good game knowledge but I often hear him just reiterating what Wolf said but less eloquently and more cringey.
ZombieGrub is good I don't understand the hate she gets, for a girl she really knows what she's talking about, honestly Rifkin is the worst caster ever, mediocre game knowledge combined with maximum cringe mode side humor/commentary.
"for a girl"
really?
Esports is heavily male, starcraft is nearly 100% male, for any woman to be compared to other casters REQUIRES one to examine the fact that she has a GLARING biological difference, that's how data works. Just because someone calls someone what they are does not make it sexist. This is not a liberal arts campus, calm down.
I have no opinion on ZG casting. I stopped watching BTTV when they started getting preachy.
It doesn't require any examinations like that though. You don't hear people say "for a really short guy, Nathanias knows his shit" or "for an indian guy, feardragon sure is great", it's just not necessary to add that detail.
On July 24 2017 02:46 jpg06051992 wrote: Wolf is really good, well rounded, decent humor and good game knowledge
Valdez needs to film himself or at least listen to himself objectively, his humor is mega awkward and usually badly timed, he also comes off as extremely negative alot of the times. He has good game knowledge but I often hear him just reiterating what Wolf said but less eloquently and more cringey.
ZombieGrub is good I don't understand the hate she gets, for a girl she really knows what she's talking about, honestly Rifkin is the worst caster ever, mediocre game knowledge combined with maximum cringe mode side humor/commentary.
"for a girl"
really?
Esports is heavily male, starcraft is nearly 100% male, for any woman to be compared to other casters REQUIRES one to examine the fact that she has a GLARING biological difference, that's how data works. Just because someone calls someone what they are does not make it sexist. This is not a liberal arts campus, calm down.
I have no opinion on ZG casting. I stopped watching BTTV when they started getting preechy.
Just curious, when/how did BTTV get preachy? Didn't get to see this as I personally stopped following them the moment they started promoting a website that allows for the selling of stolen game keys and extorts its customers. Also their mods ban you in their chat if you point out how that website hurts developers' livelihoods.
I liked Moonglade a lot, even though he wasn't a fan of Innovation and Flash, my 2 favorite players, and didn't like robotic macro play, my favorite kind of play. He had a cool accent, was confident about the game, knew his stuff from having been a recent pro, and was a Zerg main, which is all too rare among casters.
On July 24 2017 08:17 starkiller123 wrote: I miss Apollo's casting a lot
Apollo was excellent. Any one know why Apollo is no longer around?
Apollo is now a producer for the ESL and currently lives in Los Angeles. And since Apollo's time is now taken up doing the behind-the-scenes work, he's retired from casting for now.
Tasteless Artosis Day 9 Kevin Knocke (any old fan remember him? Moonglade Wolf Total Biscuit
Good Tier:
Apollo Kaelaris Mr Bitter (with rotterdam) Khaldor
So-so tier:
Nathanias Rotterdam Incontrol
Bad tier:
ToD Axeltoss (good voice, 0 knowledge) Rifkin ZombieGrub
Whats your opinion bois? agree with that?
What is wrong with ToD? I have been loving his casting lately, same with Rotti and Incontrol, I think I prefer all 3 of them over Tasteless who I still think is pretty good
I 100% agree about Rifkin thou, he just bothers me
Tasteless Artosis Day 9 Kevin Knocke (any old fan remember him? Moonglade Wolf Total Biscuit
Good Tier:
Apollo Kaelaris Mr Bitter (with rotterdam) Khaldor
So-so tier:
Nathanias Rotterdam Incontrol
Bad tier:
ToD Axeltoss (good voice, 0 knowledge) Rifkin ZombieGrub
Whats your opinion bois? agree with that?
What is wrong with ToD? I have been loving his casting lately, same with Rotti and Incontrol, I think I prefer all 3 of them over Tasteless who I still think is pretty good
I 100% agree about Rifkin thou, he just bothers me
Tod was always one of my least favorite (with PiG that i forgot to rank). First i really dislike his accent (even though im french canadian, i still dislike his accent). Also, i always thought he was one of the most bias caster (not sure if that an opinion or a fact). For rotti, i also dislike his accent (maybe im just quite picky vs non native english speaker ) but hes not bias much so thats why hes higher than Tod. (when he was with mr bitter, he would even be close to god tier). And honestly, i think incontrol can be funny, but he tries way too hard to be funny, and for me, too much is like not enough. I mainly watch the sc2 for the gameplay and to cheer for my fav players, not for the comedy aspect (unless im watching non korean gameplay )
I think I finally figured out what bothers me so much about the basetradeTV stream. There's no music on it at all, so the awkward silences and the "umms and uhhs" are so much more noticeable and difficult to listen to.
They need to enable the in game music and turn it up. Their stream is really hard for me to watch most of the time, even though Zombiegrub is great.
I honestly can't believe the strong reactions people have to this. I personally enjoy the variety we get in casters and casting styles. Sure there are some casters that I prefer to others, but I haven't run into a caster that has even brought me anywhere close to wanting to mute the stream.
There´s this one issue I have with Rapid, just one, his laugh, for me it just breaks the mood when he starts laughing uncontrollably in the middle of the game, for the rest, he seems like a cool addition to those that cast Korean games, keep up the work.
On July 24 2017 02:46 jpg06051992 wrote: Wolf is really good, well rounded, decent humor and good game knowledge
Valdez needs to film himself or at least listen to himself objectively, his humor is mega awkward and usually badly timed, he also comes off as extremely negative alot of the times. He has good game knowledge but I often hear him just reiterating what Wolf said but less eloquently and more cringey.
ZombieGrub is good I don't understand the hate she gets, for a girl she really knows what she's talking about, honestly Rifkin is the worst caster ever, mediocre game knowledge combined with maximum cringe mode side humor/commentary.
"for a girl"
really?
Um, yea, she's a girl in the Starcraft scene, I'd say considering she's probably 1 of 2 or 3 in the entire scene it's probably relevant to mention that biologically, she's out of place to say the least.
"It doesn't require any examinations like that though. You don't hear people say "for a really short guy, Nathanias knows his shit" or "for an indian guy, feardragon sure is great", it's just not necessary to add that detail."
Being a short guy or an Indian would be irrelevant to knowing anything about Starcraft while it's pretty safe to say that Starcraft is a borderline 100% male dominated sport all the way from the casters to the players, so being a girl strikes me as slightly more relevant.
Whatever, sorry you're offended, regardless she's a good caster, leagues better then her partner.
your phrasing implies that females don't know what they are talking about, and ZG is the exception - it's not your usage of statistics that will trigger tumblr-level derailing of this thread
also I must say that I often hear rifkin has bad game knowledge, I am not sure where this is coming from. Maybe he tries to predict the future more often than other caster, which by laws of nature makes him wrong more often - you cannot predict the future, you can only estimate things.
On July 24 2017 02:46 jpg06051992 wrote: Wolf is really good, well rounded, decent humor and good game knowledge
Valdez needs to film himself or at least listen to himself objectively, his humor is mega awkward and usually badly timed, he also comes off as extremely negative alot of the times. He has good game knowledge but I often hear him just reiterating what Wolf said but less eloquently and more cringey.
ZombieGrub is good I don't understand the hate she gets, for a girl she really knows what she's talking about, honestly Rifkin is the worst caster ever, mediocre game knowledge combined with maximum cringe mode side humor/commentary.
"for a girl"
really?
Um, yea, she's a girl in the Starcraft scene, I'd say considering she's probably 1 of 2 or 3 in the entire scene it's probably relevant to mention that biologically, she's out of place to say the least.
"It doesn't require any examinations like that though. You don't hear people say "for a really short guy, Nathanias knows his shit" or "for an indian guy, feardragon sure is great", it's just not necessary to add that detail."
Being a short guy or an Indian would be irrelevant to knowing anything about Starcraft while it's pretty safe to say that Starcraft is a borderline 100% male dominated sport all the way from the casters to the players, so being a girl strikes me as slightly more relevant.
Whatever, sorry you're offended, regardless she's a good caster, leagues better then her partner.
Do you mention every time a caster/player is part of a minority, as something important/relevant to evaluate his/her skills? I guess not, but you do so for male & female. Why?
How is that "relevant to mention that biologically"??? Is there a biological different between man/woman which is important for commenting SC2 matches? Please, even if you don't get this (which I find a bit strange) just stop with comments like "she's out of place to say the least" ...
The more I read your comment the more it leaves me astonished ...
On July 24 2017 12:32 yhellothere12 wrote: I honestly can't believe the strong reactions people have to this. I personally enjoy the variety we get in casters and casting styles. Sure there are some casters that I prefer to others, but I haven't run into a caster that has even brought me anywhere close to wanting to mute the stream.
If you can't believe it then you must be new here, because this has been the case since the early days. Back then it was somewhat justified because there actually were a lot of casters who weren't very good (either at commentary in general, or sorely lacking in game knowledge); they've either moved on to other things or improved dramatically since then though.
On July 24 2017 16:06 VHbb wrote: Is there a biological different between man/woman which is important for commenting SC2 matches?
men are more violent in general.. and SC2 is violent in theme. men commit more murders and violent crimes, thus, there might be a biological difference that makes males more attracted to violent video games with a large component of combat and death. more research is required in this area. and so once u r drawn into the world of SC u r better equipped to commentate it. that could potentially be the biological connection.. . who knows.
in any event, this nebulous issue of the deepest inner workings of human biology and nature/nurture is way, way, way off topic.
back on topic. ZG's game knowledge is good enough for me. Is she superstar level like Artosis? prolly not.
please also see my previous qualification about harshly judging a tiny production crew like ZG/Rifkin when they do marathon 12 hour broadcasts. Rifkin will be 10+ hours into a broadcast and some people are expecting him to sound like Howard Cosell calling a Muhammad Ali heavyweight title defense.
BTTV has done a huge tonne of grass roots level SC2 that no one else was willing to spend their time, money and effort on. As a result, i'm willing to tolerate the odd slip up that Rifkin and/or ZG have when its literally them against the world. They could probably screw up 10X more than they currently do.. and i'd still give BTTV a thumb's up. Keep in mind, everyone makes mistakes.
On July 24 2017 16:06 VHbb wrote: Is there a biological different between man/woman which is important for commenting SC2 matches?
men are more violent in general.. and SC2 is violent. men commit more murders and violent crimes, thus, there might be a biological difference that makes males more attracted to violent video games with a large component of combat and death. more research is required in this area. and so once u r drawn into the world of SC u r better equipped to commentate it. that could potentially be the biological connection.. . who knows.
On July 24 2017 16:27 gab12 wrote: Gauntlet duo sadly makes one of the worst sc2 casting imo. Just cant listen to this wierd stupid no funny jokes and then their laugh for 3 minutes :/
Passed this along. Sorry you feel that way. These guys have known each other for a very long time and yeah sometimes they get off on a big tangent. It doesn't happen that often and they are always trying to improve.
On July 24 2017 01:26 feardragon wrote: I think you can but don't expect them to read it. The quality of someone's casting can be heavily affected by the mood you're in. Accepting criticism, even if it's phrased very kindly, can mess with your head during or before a broadcast so a lot of casters avoid it, sometimes entirely.
Sometimes when you word something somewhat kindly it also will be interpreted the wrong way because casters, personalities and players are constantly dealing with people trying to take jabs at them. You develop something of an over-sensitivity to those kinds of backhanded comments after a while that aren't intended to provide actual criticism, but to just put you down. Likewise, I think fans of certain commentators/personalities/players begin to feel the same. I am a huge fan of a lot of NA players and I know I sometimes get overly defensive when people criticize some of them because it's an oversensitivity I've developed.
Also keep in mind that casters won't always listen to the criticism not because they don't care what you have to say but they don't agree with it. And I don't mean in a "your opinion doesn't matter" kinda way but just that casting is a subjective thing and ultimately every caster is chasing "their vision" of what a caster should be. Sometimes they'll make decisions about their casting you don't agree with because that's what fits their image more, even if it doesn't fit yours.
Combine all that with effective criticism being hard to give as well as hard to take and it becomes really hard to give criticism for a commentator without someone reacting negatively.
I respect what you've done for SC2, along with all the casters, but you can't be close-minded to criticism if you intend to be in front of an audience.
If you put yourself out there, you have to expect people to take jabs at you. It's part of the job and being overly sensitive to what people say will only inhibit you.
The hard part isn't accepting criticism, but filtering out the trolls from the genuine criticism. As well, you need to consider if there is something you can do with the criticism.
Being a caster is incredibly tough, and I appreciate how much effort everyone puts in, but not caring about criticism can be detrimental if you plan on making a full-time career out of it.
When Tasteless first started casting, he did research on casting. He looked at different sports casters and found a voice based on his research. He sought to improve his skill set.
The bottom line, you have to have a thick skin if you put yourself in front of an audience. And you have to consider if there is something you should change based on what people say. Don't ignore it.
On July 24 2017 01:26 feardragon wrote: I think you can but don't expect them to read it. The quality of someone's casting can be heavily affected by the mood you're in. Accepting criticism, even if it's phrased very kindly, can mess with your head during or before a broadcast so a lot of casters avoid it, sometimes entirely.
Sometimes when you word something somewhat kindly it also will be interpreted the wrong way because casters, personalities and players are constantly dealing with people trying to take jabs at them. You develop something of an over-sensitivity to those kinds of backhanded comments after a while that aren't intended to provide actual criticism, but to just put you down. Likewise, I think fans of certain commentators/personalities/players begin to feel the same. I am a huge fan of a lot of NA players and I know I sometimes get overly defensive when people criticize some of them because it's an oversensitivity I've developed.
Also keep in mind that casters won't always listen to the criticism not because they don't care what you have to say but they don't agree with it. And I don't mean in a "your opinion doesn't matter" kinda way but just that casting is a subjective thing and ultimately every caster is chasing "their vision" of what a caster should be. Sometimes they'll make decisions about their casting you don't agree with because that's what fits their image more, even if it doesn't fit yours.
Combine all that with effective criticism being hard to give as well as hard to take and it becomes really hard to give criticism for a commentator without someone reacting negatively.
I respect what you've done for SC2, along with all the casters, but you can't be close-minded to criticism if you intend to be in front of an audience.
If you put yourself out there, you have to expect people to take jabs at you. It's part of the job and being overly sensitive to what people say will only inhibit you.
The hard part isn't accepting criticism, but filtering out the trolls from the genuine criticism. As well, you need to consider if there is something you can do with the criticism.
Being a caster is incredibly tough, and I appreciate how much effort everyone puts in, but not caring about criticism can be detrimental if you plan on making a full-time career out of it.
When Tasteless first started casting, he did research on casting. He looked at different sports casters and found a voice based on his research. He sought to improve his skill set.
The bottom line, you have to have a thick skin if you put yourself in front of an audience. And you have to consider if there is something you should change based on what people say. Don't ignore it.
It's not about not accepting criticism. It's about accepting criticism from trusted sources. It's also weird you bring up Tasteless because he also does not read reddit/TL and actively avoids reading that kind of stuff himself. As far as I'm aware from interviews and such, he relies on people he trusts to provide feedback. Even in your example it's doing research on your own, looking to other voices and finding ways to improve. That's entirely different than taking to reddit/TL and reading through a thread titled something like "Here's why Tasteless is a bad commentator" or something.
The point that you're missing is that it's not about stagnation and not improving because you can't take feedback. It's about getting feedback from people you can trust and seeking to improve yourself into the image of a commentator you want to be. Becoming an amalgamation of 10,000 people's images of a commentator is a setup for failure if you don't have a clear image yourself of who you want to be.
On July 24 2017 01:26 feardragon wrote: I think you can but don't expect them to read it. The quality of someone's casting can be heavily affected by the mood you're in. Accepting criticism, even if it's phrased very kindly, can mess with your head during or before a broadcast so a lot of casters avoid it, sometimes entirely.
Sometimes when you word something somewhat kindly it also will be interpreted the wrong way because casters, personalities and players are constantly dealing with people trying to take jabs at them. You develop something of an over-sensitivity to those kinds of backhanded comments after a while that aren't intended to provide actual criticism, but to just put you down. Likewise, I think fans of certain commentators/personalities/players begin to feel the same. I am a huge fan of a lot of NA players and I know I sometimes get overly defensive when people criticize some of them because it's an oversensitivity I've developed.
Also keep in mind that casters won't always listen to the criticism not because they don't care what you have to say but they don't agree with it. And I don't mean in a "your opinion doesn't matter" kinda way but just that casting is a subjective thing and ultimately every caster is chasing "their vision" of what a caster should be. Sometimes they'll make decisions about their casting you don't agree with because that's what fits their image more, even if it doesn't fit yours.
Combine all that with effective criticism being hard to give as well as hard to take and it becomes really hard to give criticism for a commentator without someone reacting negatively.
I respect what you've done for SC2, along with all the casters, but you can't be close-minded to criticism if you intend to be in front of an audience.
If you put yourself out there, you have to expect people to take jabs at you. It's part of the job and being overly sensitive to what people say will only inhibit you.
The hard part isn't accepting criticism, but filtering out the trolls from the genuine criticism. As well, you need to consider if there is something you can do with the criticism.
Being a caster is incredibly tough, and I appreciate how much effort everyone puts in, but not caring about criticism can be detrimental if you plan on making a full-time career out of it.
When Tasteless first started casting, he did research on casting. He looked at different sports casters and found a voice based on his research. He sought to improve his skill set.
The bottom line, you have to have a thick skin if you put yourself in front of an audience. And you have to consider if there is something you should change based on what people say. Don't ignore it.
It's not about not accepting criticism. It's about accepting criticism from trusted sources. It's also weird you bring up Tasteless because he also does not read reddit/TL and actively avoids reading that kind of stuff himself. As far as I'm aware from interviews and such, he relies on people he trusts to provide feedback. Even in your example it's doing research on your own, looking to other voices and finding ways to improve. That's entirely different than taking to reddit/TL and reading through a thread titled something like "Here's why Tasteless is a bad commentator" or something.
The point that you're missing is that it's not about stagnation and not improving because you can't take feedback. It's about getting feedback from people you can trust and seeking to improve yourself into the image of a commentator you want to be. Becoming an amalgamation of 10,000 people's images of a commentator is a setup for failure if you don't have a clear image yourself of who you want to be.
You're absolutely right, but your first point indicated that some casters completely ignore all criticism, and I think that is detrimental to your art.
I don't think you should listen to the entire audience, but if a majority agree on something, then maybe that something requires attention.
I get it though. I am a writer, and sometimes I am afraid to put my work out there. I know how vulnerable it can feel producing content and putting it on the Internet. I'm not implying that you should try to mold yourself based on every individual, but you shouldn't completely ignore what your audience is saying.
On July 24 2017 02:46 jpg06051992 wrote: Wolf is really good, well rounded, decent humor and good game knowledge
Valdez needs to film himself or at least listen to himself objectively, his humor is mega awkward and usually badly timed, he also comes off as extremely negative alot of the times. He has good game knowledge but I often hear him just reiterating what Wolf said but less eloquently and more cringey.
ZombieGrub is good I don't understand the hate she gets, for a girl she really knows what she's talking about, honestly Rifkin is the worst caster ever, mediocre game knowledge combined with maximum cringe mode side humor/commentary.
"for a girl"
really?
Um, yea, she's a girl in the Starcraft scene, I'd say considering she's probably 1 of 2 or 3 in the entire scene it's probably relevant to mention that biologically, she's out of place to say the least.
"It doesn't require any examinations like that though. You don't hear people say "for a really short guy, Nathanias knows his shit" or "for an indian guy, feardragon sure is great", it's just not necessary to add that detail."
Being a short guy or an Indian would be irrelevant to knowing anything about Starcraft while it's pretty safe to say that Starcraft is a borderline 100% male dominated sport all the way from the casters to the players, so being a girl strikes me as slightly more relevant.
Whatever, sorry you're offended, regardless she's a good caster, leagues better then her partner.
On July 24 2017 14:01 Espartaquen wrote: There´s this one issue I have with Rapid, just one, his laugh, for me it just breaks the mood when he starts laughing uncontrollably in the middle of the game, for the rest, he seems like a cool addition to those that cast Korean games, keep up the work.
Artosis also sometimes laughs uncontrollably in the middle of a cast, and you do not mention him. Perhaps it is just that you do not share the same sense of humor.
On July 24 2017 14:01 Espartaquen wrote: There´s this one issue I have with Rapid, just one, his laugh, for me it just breaks the mood when he starts laughing uncontrollably in the middle of the game, for the rest, he seems like a cool addition to those that cast Korean games, keep up the work.
Artosis also sometimes laughs uncontrollably in the middle of a cast, and you do not mention him. Perhaps it is just that you do not share the same sense of humor.
Artosis laughs are way less annoying and dare I say dont feel fake, usually both Tasteless or Artosis have a decent reason to be laughing as it seems that when they cast they are just two best friends having loads of fun, their chemistry is THAT good , but Rapid has some moments when I´d say it is totally uncalled for to be laughing histerically as nothing really funny or amazing is happening during the cast. Still, this is not bashing, I think he has a good style that makes him very flexible and adaptable to the other commentators he is working with, he just has to improve on this aspect because I strongly believe I cannot be the only one annoyed when he does this.
On July 24 2017 02:46 jpg06051992 wrote: Wolf is really good, well rounded, decent humor and good game knowledge
Valdez needs to film himself or at least listen to himself objectively, his humor is mega awkward and usually badly timed, he also comes off as extremely negative alot of the times. He has good game knowledge but I often hear him just reiterating what Wolf said but less eloquently and more cringey.
ZombieGrub is good I don't understand the hate she gets, for a girl she really knows what she's talking about, honestly Rifkin is the worst caster ever, mediocre game knowledge combined with maximum cringe mode side humor/commentary.
"for a girl"
really?
Um, yea, she's a girl in the Starcraft scene, I'd say considering she's probably 1 of 2 or 3 in the entire scene it's probably relevant to mention that biologically, she's out of place to say the least.
"It doesn't require any examinations like that though. You don't hear people say "for a really short guy, Nathanias knows his shit" or "for an indian guy, feardragon sure is great", it's just not necessary to add that detail."
Being a short guy or an Indian would be irrelevant to knowing anything about Starcraft while it's pretty safe to say that Starcraft is a borderline 100% male dominated sport all the way from the casters to the players, so being a girl strikes me as slightly more relevant.
Whatever, sorry you're offended, regardless she's a good caster, leagues better then her partner.
Like the others who have replied to you have said, your comment makes it seem as though you're talking down to her because she's a girl, and implying girls are less capable of understanding Starcraft. Your reply to me seems to confirm that being a girl would be "relevant" to how well you can understand the game, in your opinion. I think you can see why some would find that a bit questionable.
On July 24 2017 14:01 Espartaquen wrote: There´s this one issue I have with Rapid, just one, his laugh, for me it just breaks the mood when he starts laughing uncontrollably in the middle of the game, for the rest, he seems like a cool addition to those that cast Korean games, keep up the work.
Artosis also sometimes laughs uncontrollably in the middle of a cast, and you do not mention him. Perhaps it is just that you do not share the same sense of humor.
Artosis laughs are way less annoying and dare I say dont feel fake, usually both Tasteless or Artosis have a decent reason to be laughing as it seems that when they cast they are just two best friends having loads of fun, their chemistry is THAT good , but Rapid has some moments when I´d say it is totally uncalled for to be laughing histerically as nothing really funny or amazing is happening during the cast. Still, this is not bashing, I think he has a good style that makes him very flexible and adaptable to the other commentators he is working with, he just has to improve on this aspect because I strongly believe I cannot be the only one annoyed when he does this.
I think generally, pointing out the perfect way something can be done in theory is less exciting than focusing on the merits of what is being done. Also, I think casters are too often calling games as won before the game is over. Just stop doing that. It's lazy casting.
Also, stop trying to be better than each other. Team players. That's why Tastosis is so amazing. They don't want to one-up each other.
Mostly, I've been super satisfied with a lot of the casters though
On July 24 2017 14:01 Espartaquen wrote: There´s this one issue I have with Rapid, just one, his laugh, for me it just breaks the mood when he starts laughing uncontrollably in the middle of the game, for the rest, he seems like a cool addition to those that cast Korean games, keep up the work.
Artosis also sometimes laughs uncontrollably in the middle of a cast, and you do not mention him. Perhaps it is just that you do not share the same sense of humor.
Artosis laughs are way less annoying and dare I say dont feel fake, usually both Tasteless or Artosis have a decent reason to be laughing as it seems that when they cast they are just two best friends having loads of fun, their chemistry is THAT good , but Rapid has some moments when I´d say it is totally uncalled for to be laughing histerically as nothing really funny or amazing is happening during the cast. Still, this is not bashing, I think he has a good style that makes him very flexible and adaptable to the other commentators he is working with, he just has to improve on this aspect because I strongly believe I cannot be the only one annoyed when he does this.
The thing about that point though is it is very subjective. As much as I like his casting, Artosis fake laugh makes me cringe every single time. I appreciate that it would be hard to say something when nothing is happening, but it is just soo fake I sometimes mute it.
Not sure if anyone has tried it, but watching a muted cast is kinda nice. It means you have to be actively watching and analysing the game yourself.
Casters, all of you sometimes get carried away, and this is okay, just make sure we are in on the joke too. Not all of us have time to watch every game, so we just watch game vods. ♥ you all, but that's just my 2 cents.
Can casters stop hyping up a player when he is down 100 supply for example and on the verge of losing? It gets annoying when questions like "can he hold" when he has no chance of a comeback whatsoever.
On July 24 2017 16:27 gab12 wrote: Gauntlet duo sadly makes one of the worst sc2 casting imo. Just cant listen to this wierd stupid no funny jokes and then their laugh for 3 minutes :/
I think they do a great job. It's a nice, unique way of casting. Keep it up!
I used to hate ToD with a burning passion, I just could not help myself, I just felt his accent was way too strong and at sometimes made it for me impossible to understand what he was trying to say. I sometimes thought "his English is as bad as my French, why am I not casting games for OgamingTV ?!!" and stuff like that. It came to a point where I wouldnt watch matches, even if my fav players were playing, upon seeing that they were casted by ToD.
After not following the scene / tournaments casted by him I watched some games at the recent HSC and to my big surprised actually enjoyed his casting. So probs to ToD for improving I guess. Keep up the good work.
Personally I think that SC2 casters are really good and they bring a lot to the games. Some of them I love, some of them I like, maybe one or two of them are okayish, but never thought about muting them and I appreciate amount of work they put into the scene.
On the contrary, couple months ago I started playing Hearthstone. Lately I decided to check some tournaments and /i must say that casters there are terrible. It was some Blizzard tournaments, so I guess they invited more popular casters, but they were really boring to me. There was no flow between them, it was more like putting 2 random people in 1 room and make them cast a game. When occasionally one of them was trying to make a joke about something, his co-partner didn't respond at all or just said something generic like "that would be nice" and ending the topic immediately. Also, being a noob like me who just recently started playing, I already predicted some in game situations better than those casters who are supposed to be way more knowledgable than me.
In Starcraft 2 I feel all the casters are good friends with one another. You can see during tournaments that whatever the combo is, they feel good with each other, they joke and laugh a lot, and there are no awkward, forced conversations like in Hearthstone. There is always natural flow between SC2 casters. Also, even though I play and watch Starcraft 2 for a way longer than Hearthstone, I can feel the casters have vast knowledge about the game and I can learn from them.
To sum up, I really enjoy our casters and I think they are big reason I stll watch some SC2 from time to time even though I am not that interested in game anymore.
I really enjoyed the casting at IEM Shanghai, oh and I enjoyed the little messages during the waiting screen between matches/games.
The casters were great, but I think some of the calls were off. I don't like it when a caster says 'X player is going for Y strategy' and they are wrong. It didn't happen often, but it kind of irks me. I don't remember a specific example, but I believe Wardii and Rotti did it once each.
Artosis calls out the strategy, but he is much more often right than wrong. And he says it to allow room for error.
All our casters are great! Everyone brings something special. I am really happy that PiG made it to the high tear casters and is being invited to so many events. ToD and Rotti are the stellar stars. Tastosis and Wolf with Valdes are forever connected with the Korean competitions and I can't imagine anyone else there.
Well, and Rapid came in a situation, where our e-sport was "dying" and people were leaving it - and he was the fresh blood, who brought again some passion into SC2, how he was coming to all the events, even when he was not casting there. That was bringing back some passion to all the people, who were observing the dissolution of Korean teams, casters leaving to other esports ... it was kind of a sign that SC2 is not dead yet, when there is fresh blood, someone new interested in SC2 and passionate about the scene. Thanks for that Rapid!
i think Tasteless and Artosis make more incorrect calls when they're separated. kudos to Incontrol for having the balls to acknowledge some of the games were terribly 1-sided in replying to a stock/standard "what great games tonight" comment.
On July 31 2017 15:11 ThunderJunk wrote: Also, I think casters are too often calling games as won before the game is over. Just stop doing that. It's lazy casting.
I am sorry but that never happens. Even if a player is super dead they still try to create fake hype.
I also enjoyed Wardi in the last IEM tournament, nice addition to the team and it was nice hearing him together with Kaelaris
All in all I think we have a great team of casters in SC2, each one brings something a bit different - and there are some duos which work veeery good together. I really liked Apollo's casting, but I get he's busy with organizational matters now
Then of course I enjoyed a lot Day9's casting when he was more into the SC2 scene (like MLG in WoL, ...)
On July 31 2017 15:11 ThunderJunk wrote: Also, I think casters are too often calling games as won before the game is over. Just stop doing that. It's lazy casting.
I am sorry but that never happens. Even if a player is super dead they still try to create fake hype.
"fake hype" is a smear of what a caster must do in the case of a 1-sided game. they can't say: "stop watching now, this game will end soon and there will be a 5 minute break. so go do something else now and come back in 10 minutes." although that comment might be 100% honest the people paying the caster might have something to say about it.
so they must do something to keep the viewer invested in watching. and that's not easy in any 1-sided competition in any game including SC2.
I honestly think the WCS casters are pretty great at projecting a friendly atmosphere while delivering a fair amount of information. Really, SC2 has fairly good atmosphere casters in general, including Artosis and iNcontroL who are some of my favorites in eSports. It's one of the things I find myself missing most when watching other eSports. I'll try to pay specific attention to the casting during Montreal, so I can provide better feedback after.
On August 15 2017 19:43 Soularion wrote: I honestly think the WCS casters are pretty great at projecting a friendly atmosphere while delivering a fair amount of information. Really, SC2 has fairly good atmosphere casters in general, including Artosis and iNcontroL who are some of my favorites in eSports. It's one of the things I find myself missing most when watching other eSports. I'll try to pay specific attention to the casting during Montreal, so I can provide better feedback after.
You should catch the StarCraft Remastered Launch Event that will be continuing in ~6 hours' time.
I haven't so laughed so much in months. Day[9] + Tastosis + iNcontroL are just perfect all casting together, roasting each other and sharing stories that make me feel old.
i don't care as long as somebody cast something, we're starting to get to that point where things aren't getting english casting again. copa america, gauntlet weeklys, even wcs regionals.
On August 15 2017 23:32 JimSocks wrote: i don't care as long as somebody cast something, we're starting to get to that point where things aren't getting english casting again. copa america, gauntlet weeklys, even wcs regionals.
And when Wardi or Feardragon or anyone else tries casting them, half the comments they get are grief "why isn't this guy half as good at casting as Artosis [in my purely subjective opinion] REEEEEE". Not the best payoff for 6 hour+ casts, I'd wager.
On August 15 2017 23:32 JimSocks wrote: i don't care as long as somebody cast something, we're starting to get to that point where things aren't getting english casting again. copa america, gauntlet weeklys, even wcs regionals.
And when Wardi or Feardragon or anyone else tries casting them, half the comments they get are grief "why isn't this guy half as good at casting as Artosis [in my purely subjective opinion] REEEEEE". Not the best payoff for 6 hour+ casts, I'd wager.
I'm sure Breaker who posted above would agree.
Idk,
Feardragon and Wardi seem to be legit good guys. I remember matching vs Feardragon on ladder and he was a really nice chap even though he played protoss. Meanwhile, there must have been a reason why nobody shed a tear when Breaker left the scene and stopped casting the Taiwanese league.
On August 15 2017 23:32 JimSocks wrote: i don't care as long as somebody cast something, we're starting to get to that point where things aren't getting english casting again. copa america, gauntlet weeklys, even wcs regionals.
And when Wardi or Feardragon or anyone else tries casting them, half the comments they get are grief "why isn't this guy half as good at casting as Artosis [in my purely subjective opinion] REEEEEE". Not the best payoff for 6 hour+ casts, I'd wager.
I'm sure Breaker who posted above would agree.
Idk,
Feardragon and Wardi seem to be legit good guys. I remember matching vs Feardragon on ladder and he was a really nice chap even though he played protoss.
Almost everyone (and I do say almost on purpose) still casting/hosting/etc in the scene is a legit good guy (or girl) from what I can tell; most of them still get disproportionate amounts of hate and grief over purely subjective issues. Refer to the first few pages of this thread before it was renamed and repurposed.
On August 15 2017 23:32 JimSocks wrote: i don't care as long as somebody cast something, we're starting to get to that point where things aren't getting english casting again. copa america, gauntlet weeklys, even wcs regionals.
And when Wardi or Feardragon or anyone else tries casting them, half the comments they get are grief "why isn't this guy half as good at casting as Artosis [in my purely subjective opinion] REEEEEE". Not the best payoff for 6 hour+ casts, I'd wager.
I'm sure Breaker who posted above would agree.
Idk,
Feardragon and Wardi seem to be legit good guys. I remember matching vs Feardragon on ladder and he was a really nice chap even though he played protoss.
Almost everyone (and I do say almost on purpose) still casting/hosting/etc in the scene is a legit good guy (or girl) from what I can tell; most of them still get disproportionate amounts of hate and grief over purely subjective issues. Refer to the first few pages of this thread before it was renamed and repurposed.
I read the thread. I was trying to adress the cryptic Breaker qq.
On August 15 2017 23:32 JimSocks wrote: i don't care as long as somebody cast something, we're starting to get to that point where things aren't getting english casting again. copa america, gauntlet weeklys, even wcs regionals.
And when Wardi or Feardragon or anyone else tries casting them, half the comments they get are grief "why isn't this guy half as good at casting as Artosis [in my purely subjective opinion] REEEEEE". Not the best payoff for 6 hour+ casts, I'd wager.
I'm sure Breaker who posted above would agree.
i agree that people are far too critical of grassroots casters .. these grassroots guys are casting some event none of the big important guys have time to .. or it doesn't make the big guys enough cash. That happened to BTTV a lot in the beginning when they were entirely grassroots.
was BTTV less than perfect? sure. so what .. they provided 34857398573984759234234 hours of top notch non-Korean SC2 that no one else would cast.
On August 09 2017 00:43 curufinwe_wins wrote: Incontrol's brutal honesty during his casting was at first a bit of a rude awakening to me, but I really warmed up to the fresh air...
isnt it nice when casters respect the intelligence of their viewers?!
I know what Breaker means, I recall a blog where he complained about how certain platform/developers treat the casters/players poorly, or very restrictive.
And he isn't referring to SC2, but esports in general. He wrote a blog about his gripe with esports and certain developers/platforms like LoL.
On August 15 2017 23:32 JimSocks wrote: i don't care as long as somebody cast something, we're starting to get to that point where things aren't getting english casting again. copa america, gauntlet weeklys, even wcs regionals.
And when Wardi or Feardragon or anyone else tries casting them, half the comments they get are grief "why isn't this guy half as good at casting as Artosis [in my purely subjective opinion] REEEEEE". Not the best payoff for 6 hour+ casts, I'd wager.
I'm sure Breaker who posted above would agree.
Idk,
Feardragon and Wardi seem to be legit good guys. I remember matching vs Feardragon on ladder and he was a really nice chap even though he played protoss.
I apologize for however many blink dt's I made against you.
I gotta say, I was a bit disappointed to see Rapid and Valdes instead of Tasteosis casting the 1st Ro16 group, but I feel like Rapid has really improved.
He even made a comment in the early-game of one of the Inno-Gumiho matches about not trying to copy what Tasteosis does, which I felt like something that was holding him back a bit when he first got to KR. WP Rapid, congrats on getting to follow your passion for a living and keep up the good work. (I've always liked Valdes as a straight-up PBP guy who can mesh well with any caster and, I think, speaks better Korean than any other non-Korean caster.)
Note for all casters though, and this might just be my Inno fanboy showing: the robot jokes are getting a bit stale, especially since he varies his builds and strategies more now than he ever has -- he just still has god macro and never makes facial expressions, is all. Again, probably just being a fanboy, but I'd like to hear more in-game analysis of what makes him great rather than just beating a meme into the ground.
On August 17 2017 16:32 ScrappyRabbit wrote: Note for all casters though, and this might just be my Inno fanboy showing: the robot jokes are getting a bit stale, especially since he varies his builds and strategies more now than he ever has -- he just still has god macro and never makes facial expressions, is all. Again, probably just being a fanboy, but I'd like to hear more in-game analysis of what makes him great rather than just beating a meme into the ground.
That's just filler content when nothing exciting is going on. Lulls happen, and the casters like to fill it with memes, cuz those are very easy to do.
I like the totally off topic humour of Tastosis. They talk about other games they played as children and teens. I also love banter.
At first, I thought ToD and Kelaris disliked each other. During their duo cast around 2013-2014, I felt tension between them. However, I don't feel any tension in their casts anymore. Their jokes are also funny.
On August 17 2017 16:32 ScrappyRabbit wrote: Note for all casters though, and this might just be my Inno fanboy showing: the robot jokes are getting a bit stale, especially since he varies his builds and strategies more now than he ever has -- he just still has god macro and never makes facial expressions, is all. Again, probably just being a fanboy, but I'd like to hear more in-game analysis of what makes him great rather than just beating a meme into the ground.
That's just filler content when nothing exciting is going on. Lulls happen, and the casters like to fill it with memes, cuz those are very easy to do.
I like the totally off topic humour of Tastosis. They talk about other games they played as children and teens. I also love banter.
At first, I thought ToD and Kelaris disliked each other. During their duo cast around 2013-2014, I felt tension between them. However, I don't feel any tension in their casts anymore. Their jokes are also funny.
I'm all for good filler content -- although I think Tasteosis are the only ones to have mastered when they're able to talk about whatever is on their mind without missing any important gameplay -- I was just reacting to this specific thing that all casters are doing during Inno games.
P.S. Not to be too much of a Tasteosis fanboy (been watching GSL for so long now!) but I feel like early-game "banter" is generally better when the casters talk about the matchup, past matches between the players, etc. instead of trying to do a comedy routine.
On August 17 2017 16:32 ScrappyRabbit wrote: Note for all casters though, and this might just be my Inno fanboy showing: the robot jokes are getting a bit stale, especially since he varies his builds and strategies more now than he ever has -- he just still has god macro and never makes facial expressions, is all. Again, probably just being a fanboy, but I'd like to hear more in-game analysis of what makes him great rather than just beating a meme into the ground.
That's just filler content when nothing exciting is going on. Lulls happen, and the casters like to fill it with memes, cuz those are very easy to do.
I like the totally off topic humour of Tastosis. They talk about other games they played as children and teens. I also love banter.
At first, I thought ToD and Kelaris disliked each other. During their duo cast around 2013-2014, I felt tension between them. However, I don't feel any tension in their casts anymore. Their jokes are also funny.
I'm all for good filler content -- although I think Tasteosis are the only ones to have mastered when they're able to talk about whatever is on their mind without missing any important gameplay -- I was just reacting to this specific thing that all casters are doing during Inno games.
P.S. Not to be too much of a Tasteosis fanboy (been watching GSL for so long now!) but I feel like early-game "banter" is generally better when the casters talk about the matchup, past matches between the players, etc. instead of trying to do a comedy routine.
I don't think a single TLer is not a Tastosis fanboy. I have never heard a single person say a bad thing about this casting duo.
But these guys have been honing their craft to perfection.
I have never heard a single person say a bad thing about this casting duo.
Did you watch the game at all during Heart of the Swarm? There were tonnes of people shitting on Tasteless, saying he doesn't know anything about the game anymore and is just phoning it in.
Not to mention people REEEEEing all over Artosis for having the audacity to show interest in Hearthstone.
On August 15 2017 23:32 JimSocks wrote: i don't care as long as somebody cast something, we're starting to get to that point where things aren't getting english casting again. copa america, gauntlet weeklys, even wcs regionals.
Yeah i'm pretty disappointed that our weeklies haven't been casted lately... it's open to other casters but I need to do a better job advertising that. Hopefully Jordan's internet gets fixed soon or we'll have to find another solution. Bob is going to be able to cast a lot more often in the near future which is reallllly exciting. The days of no casts on our weeklies are numbered..
I was banned twice as a non-sub viewer on SSLSERIES and GSL because I said Rapid casting is bad since he is trying too hard. I was banned permanently, I assume by Rapid himself.
I am curious does casters have the right to do this? Is there rules about casters modding the chat? Is there no freedom of speech in chat? Please note I did not call names or said anything disrespectful, I simply said he is bad, which I think he is, and now I think he is not only bad but also petty.
On September 02 2017 23:37 naderni wrote: I was banned twice as a non-sub viewer on SSLSERIES and GSL because I said Rapid casting is bad since he is trying too hard. I was banned permanently, I assume by Rapid himself.
I am curious does casters have the right to do this? Is there rules about casters modding the chat? Is there no freedom of speech in chat? Please note I did not call names or said anything disrespectful, I simply said he is bad, which I think he is, and now I think he is not only bad but also petty.
Why do you just assume right from the getgo it was him? You are already judging him before thinking about it... And if you are permabanned from the chat, I guess you didnt just make light jokes.
On September 02 2017 23:37 naderni wrote: I was banned twice as a non-sub viewer on SSLSERIES and GSL because I said Rapid casting is bad since he is trying too hard. I was banned permanently, I assume by Rapid himself.
I am curious does casters have the right to do this? Is there rules about casters modding the chat? Is there no freedom of speech in chat? Please note I did not call names or said anything disrespectful, I simply said he is bad, which I think he is, and now I think he is not only bad but also petty.
Why do you just assume right from the getgo it was him? You are already judging him before thinking about it... And if you are permabanned from the chat, I guess you didnt just make light jokes.
Yeah sure you were right there in the chat you know exactly what happened....
Also that doesn't answer my question.
There were only a handful of mods in those chats not sure if you know or not, currently there is only SSLSERIES and Rapid himself on.
So let's say if its not himself is there any rules about perm ban people? I dont care at all about being able to talk or not but if casters do not wish to hear things about himself being bad and can simply ban people who says otherwise why even have a thread here?
EDIT: Since you are guessing what I said and this thread is 'heavily moderated' I'll tell you exactly what I said: 1st time in SSLSERIES I said 'Rapid is soooo bad he tries too hard' I got instantly banned I didnt do anything else in that session, the next session in SSLSERIES I saw wolf on and I private messaged him and luckily he didnt mute his private message and he unbanned me, I asked him why I was banned he said he didnt know but he doesnt ban people and unbanned me.
2nd time I went on GSL and told chat the story, I said 'Rapid perm banned me for saying him being bad and wolf unbanned me I am grateful for wolf', and I got perm banned again. That was this week and I didnt do anything so I am still banned.
If this thread is heavily moderated and watched carefully I would like to know what is the reason of me being banned in both chats, is there any clarification at all about people being perm banned? Can people not give their honest opinions in chat?
On September 02 2017 23:37 naderni wrote: I was banned twice as a non-sub viewer on SSLSERIES and GSL because I said Rapid casting is bad since he is trying too hard. I was banned permanently, I assume by Rapid himself.
I am curious does casters have the right to do this? Is there rules about casters modding the chat? Is there no freedom of speech in chat? Please note I did not call names or said anything disrespectful, I simply said he is bad, which I think he is, and now I think he is not only bad but also petty.
Why do you just assume right from the getgo it was him? You are already judging him before thinking about it... And if you are permabanned from the chat, I guess you didnt just make light jokes.
Yeah sure you were right there in the chat you know exactly what happened....
Also that doesn't answer my question.
There were only a handful of mods in those chats not sure if you know or not, currently there is only SSLSERIES and Rapid himself on.
So let's say if its not himself is there any rules about perm ban people? I dont care at all about being able to talk or not but if casters do not wish to hear things about himself being bad and can simply ban people who says otherwise why even have a thread here?
EDIT: Since you are guessing what I said and this thread is 'heavily moderated' I'll tell you exactly what I said: 1st time in SSLSERIES I said 'Rapid is soooo bad he tries too hard' I got instantly banned I didnt do anything else in that session, the next session in SSLSERIES I saw wolf on and I private messaged him and luckily he didnt mute his private message and he unbanned me, I asked him why I was banned he said he didnt know but he doesnt ban people and unbanned me.
2nd time I went on GSL and told chat the story, I said 'Rapid perm banned me for saying him being bad and wolf unbanned me I am grateful for wolf', and I got perm banned again. That was this week and I didnt do anything so I am still banned.
If this thread is heavily moderated and watched carefully I would like to know what is the reason of me being banned in both chats, is there any clarification at all about people being perm banned? Can people not give their honest opinions in chat?
I'm not sure why you're talking about this thread being "heavily moderated". This TL thread and the SSL/GSL twitch chat have nothing to do with each other.
On September 02 2017 23:37 naderni wrote: I was banned twice as a non-sub viewer on SSLSERIES and GSL because I said Rapid casting is bad since he is trying too hard. I was banned permanently, I assume by Rapid himself.
I am curious does casters have the right to do this? Is there rules about casters modding the chat? Is there no freedom of speech in chat? Please note I did not call names or said anything disrespectful, I simply said he is bad, which I think he is, and now I think he is not only bad but also petty.
Why do you just assume right from the getgo it was him? You are already judging him before thinking about it... And if you are permabanned from the chat, I guess you didnt just make light jokes.
Yeah sure you were right there in the chat you know exactly what happened....
Also that doesn't answer my question.
There were only a handful of mods in those chats not sure if you know or not, currently there is only SSLSERIES and Rapid himself on.
So let's say if its not himself is there any rules about perm ban people? I dont care at all about being able to talk or not but if casters do not wish to hear things about himself being bad and can simply ban people who says otherwise why even have a thread here?
EDIT: Since you are guessing what I said and this thread is 'heavily moderated' I'll tell you exactly what I said: 1st time in SSLSERIES I said 'Rapid is soooo bad he tries too hard' I got instantly banned I didnt do anything else in that session, the next session in SSLSERIES I saw wolf on and I private messaged him and luckily he didnt mute his private message and he unbanned me, I asked him why I was banned he said he didnt know but he doesnt ban people and unbanned me.
2nd time I went on GSL and told chat the story, I said 'Rapid perm banned me for saying him being bad and wolf unbanned me I am grateful for wolf', and I got perm banned again. That was this week and I didnt do anything so I am still banned.
If this thread is heavily moderated and watched carefully I would like to know what is the reason of me being banned in both chats, is there any clarification at all about people being perm banned? Can people not give their honest opinions in chat?
I'm not sure why you're talking about this thread being "heavily moderated". This TL thread and the SSL/GSL twitch chat have nothing to do with each other.
Fair point, I saw this at the top 'All constructive criticism and feedback toward casters will go here. This thread will be moderated and watched carefully so be wary of what you post!', and I guess I just post this here since I think it is Rapid who banned me and this is my feedback toward casters
On September 02 2017 23:37 naderni wrote: I was banned twice as a non-sub viewer on SSLSERIES and GSL because I said Rapid casting is bad since he is trying too hard. I was banned permanently, I assume by Rapid himself.
I am curious does casters have the right to do this? Is there rules about casters modding the chat? Is there no freedom of speech in chat? Please note I did not call names or said anything disrespectful, I simply said he is bad, which I think he is, and now I think he is not only bad but also petty.
Why do you just assume right from the getgo it was him? You are already judging him before thinking about it... And if you are permabanned from the chat, I guess you didnt just make light jokes.
Yeah sure you were right there in the chat you know exactly what happened....
Also that doesn't answer my question.
There were only a handful of mods in those chats not sure if you know or not, currently there is only SSLSERIES and Rapid himself on.
So let's say if its not himself is there any rules about perm ban people? I dont care at all about being able to talk or not but if casters do not wish to hear things about himself being bad and can simply ban people who says otherwise why even have a thread here?
EDIT: Since you are guessing what I said and this thread is 'heavily moderated' I'll tell you exactly what I said: 1st time in SSLSERIES I said 'Rapid is soooo bad he tries too hard' I got instantly banned I didnt do anything else in that session, the next session in SSLSERIES I saw wolf on and I private messaged him and luckily he didnt mute his private message and he unbanned me, I asked him why I was banned he said he didnt know but he doesnt ban people and unbanned me.
2nd time I went on GSL and told chat the story, I said 'Rapid perm banned me for saying him being bad and wolf unbanned me I am grateful for wolf', and I got perm banned again. That was this week and I didnt do anything so I am still banned.
If this thread is heavily moderated and watched carefully I would like to know what is the reason of me being banned in both chats, is there any clarification at all about people being perm banned? Can people not give their honest opinions in chat?
I'm not sure why you're talking about this thread being "heavily moderated". This TL thread and the SSL/GSL twitch chat have nothing to do with each other.
Fair point, I saw this at the top 'All constructive criticism and feedback toward casters will go here. This thread will be moderated and watched carefully so be wary of what you post!', and I guess I just post this here since I think it is Rapid who banned me and this is my feedback toward casters
Okay. But just to reiterate, TL moderation and SSL/GSL twitch chat moderation have nothing to do with each other. You can definitely talk about why you think you were banned from both chats but TL didn't have anything to do with it.
On August 17 2017 16:32 ScrappyRabbit wrote: Note for all casters though, and this might just be my Inno fanboy showing: the robot jokes are getting a bit stale, especially since he varies his builds and strategies more now than he ever has -- he just still has god macro and never makes facial expressions, is all. Again, probably just being a fanboy, but I'd like to hear more in-game analysis of what makes him great rather than just beating a meme into the ground.
That's just filler content when nothing exciting is going on. Lulls happen, and the casters like to fill it with memes, cuz those are very easy to do.
I like the totally off topic humour of Tastosis. They talk about other games they played as children and teens. I also love banter.
At first, I thought ToD and Kelaris disliked each other. During their duo cast around 2013-2014, I felt tension between them. However, I don't feel any tension in their casts anymore. Their jokes are also funny.
I'm all for good filler content -- although I think Tasteosis are the only ones to have mastered when they're able to talk about whatever is on their mind without missing any important gameplay -- I was just reacting to this specific thing that all casters are doing during Inno games.
P.S. Not to be too much of a Tasteosis fanboy (been watching GSL for so long now!) but I feel like early-game "banter" is generally better when the casters talk about the matchup, past matches between the players, etc. instead of trying to do a comedy routine.
I don't think a single TLer is not a Tastosis fanboy. I have never heard a single person say a bad thing about this casting duo. But these guys have been honing their craft to perfection.
check my posting history. i've been critical of Tasteless and Artosis. Typically, its a mid-week GSL early in a season, and they come off as being kinda bored. For big events these guys always bring their "A Game" and do a great job.
when i was critical i was not "moderated" or "warned" or "banned" or anything. a big problem i find is people get sloppy, imprecise, impolite, and personal in their critique. then they whine about getting "moderated".
I have a few things that I would like to say about what casters do.
Good things: •talking about statistics during down time. •analysing the playstyles of both players. •looking for the relevant parts of strategy and tactics (for example: upgrade timings, worker production, tech buildings etc).
Bad things: •predicting things in a confident manner (add some uncertainty when predicting to not look bad the times your prediction didn't come true). •talking about the players' style in an overly stereotypical manner.
Regarding overly stereotyping players: Blizzcon 2015 had sOs playing and Rotti casting. sOs did his standard 2gate opening, the opening he did 4 out of 5 times. Rotti said that he had never seen that strategy before, that sOs had tailored the build for his opponent on that map because sOs is a crazy and intelligent player. Group C in GSL season 3, Ro16, had 3 zergs. soO got painted as "the best ZvZ player". This was repeated several times as he lost in ZvZ over and over again. Stereotyping players has only a narrative function. When the stereotype fails, the narrative fails. If the narrative fails, the cast loses its credibility.
so the GSL enters the RO4 and Artosis stops having 3 minute laughing fits in the middle of games. In general, Tastosis quits fucking around like they do during midweek RO32 games. Good to see. Great job by Tastosis on the RO4 GSL Season 3 , 2017.
Rifkin's over the top, rude, and vulgar "rebuttals" to polite criticism on reddit earlier this month weakened the BTTV brand. Flat out unacceptable behaviour. I think the guy spends too much time online... however casting 36 hours from Friday to Sunday on small events no one else would cover is a big reason that put BTTV on the map; hence, i don't know what the solution is. Maybe an "A" and "B" casting team so he can lower his online time?
On September 12 2017 16:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote: so the GSL enters the RO4 and Artosis stops having 3 minute laughing fits in the middle of games. In general, Tastosis quits fucking around like they do during midweek RO32 games. Good to see. Great job by Tastosis on the RO4 GSL Season 3 , 2017.
Rifkin's over the top, rude, and vulgar "rebuttals" to polite criticism on reddit earlier this month weakened the BTTV brand.
Um Rifkin has always been like that.
I remember the earlier days of his BTTV (I think they used a different name) they organized an offline tournament which CombatEx participated in. There was a thread on TL where many people disapproved of CombatEx's participation due to him being a known stream sniper.
Rifkin's response was essentially "Fuck you we can have anyone we want participating". Of course that wasn't verbatim, and I don't have the link to that thread.
I still love BTTV, and they have done a lot for the scene, but Rifkin should really learn to be tactful sometimes.
was Rifkin telling polite critics their job includes sucking cocks in back alleys 90 hours a week?
i think this month's Rifkin performance is unprecedented in its level of insult. However, i'm no hardcore follower of the guy.. maybe he has said stuff like this on reddit in reply to polite criticisms in the past. if he has.. that's very bad.
On September 12 2017 16:39 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I still love BTTV, and they have done a lot for the scene, but Rifkin should really learn to be tactful sometimes.
i don't "love" BTTV.. but u make a good point here.
I really enjoyed Rotterdam + ZombieGrub casting at WCS, nice job! I like when there's some addition to the usual crew (kinda like Wardi at IEM) (as for the rest of the casters, Incontrol and Maynard awesome as always)
So I was curious about the flak Rifkin was getting over on Reddit, and decided to do some light reading.
I never knew, nor was I even remotely aware, that Rifkin is hated by so many other people, not on TL (or doesn't post here). I know that TL isn't the de facto SC2 community website, but I never realized how many people dislike him. I am not a fan, but I don't hate him. He really does tarnish the BTTV brand name.
I also think it's very nice that Zombie is getting the attention she deserves. She was great at WCS Montreal. I can't wait to see what big tournament she'll be involved in next. Maybe Blizzcon?
On September 13 2017 06:07 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: So I was curious about the flak Rifkin was getting over on Reddit, and decided to do some light reading.
I never knew, nor was I even remotely aware, that Rifkin is hated by so many other people, not on TL (or doesn't post here). I know that TL isn't the de facto SC2 community website, but I never realized how many people dislike him. I am not a fan, but I don't hate him. He really does tarnish the BTTV brand name.
I also think it's very nice that Zombie is getting the attention she deserves. She was great at WCS Montreal. I can't wait to see what big tournament she'll be involved in next. Maybe Blizzcon?
On September 13 2017 00:15 VHbb wrote: I really enjoyed Rotterdam + ZombieGrub casting at WCS, nice job! I like when there's some addition to the usual crew (kinda like Wardi at IEM) (as for the rest of the casters, Incontrol and Maynard awesome as always)
Agreed about liking the new casters. Blizzard has been doing a good job lately, they've brought in feardragon, Wardi, and ZG at the last couple events. Also Mal reappeared.
I think both ZombieGrub and Wardi absolutely killed it at their first events. Really hoping to see a ton more of both of them in 2018. I think ZG + Rotterdam and Wardi + Maynarde were crazy good combos that seemed to have a super natural "click".
About Wardi, I have nothing against his casting, and he is good, but I don't feel excitement in his voice.
I'm not saying he sounds monotone or doesn't express emotions, but I just don't feel excited when I hear his cast.
Sometimes the job of a caster isn't just to give blow by blow description, but to make the audience feel excited when a great play occurs. They are an amplifier to the audience, taking them to another level of fervor.
Baseball announcers are great at doing this.
SC2 casters that do this well are (in no particular order):
Tasteless Rotti ToD (although sometimes I can't understand him) ZG Kaelaris
On September 14 2017 06:54 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: About Wardi, I have nothing against his casting, and he is good, but I don't feel excitement in his voice.
I'm not saying he sounds monotone or doesn't express emotions, but I just don't feel excited when I hear his cast.
Sometimes the job of a caster isn't just to give blow by blow description, but to make the audience feel excited when a great play occurs. They are an amplifier to the audience, taking them to another level of fervor.
Baseball announcers are great at doing this.
SC2 casters that do this well are (in no particular order):
Tasteless Rotti ToD (although sometimes I can't understand him) ZG Kaelaris
Is your passion and understanding of the game actually that low that you literally need to be told when to be excited?
My bad, I probably worded that a little more harshly than I should have but jesus fucking christ...
Thinking about artosis and tastless, I would love to see more active commentary during the early game. They usually take that time for more personal chatter which is fine but I think they gloss over stuff that while aimed at higher levels is actually really important.
Minor build deviations, overlord scouting paths, gas pull outs, all the tiny details that are actually the difference between crucial variations of similar builds. I think they are casting from a video feed and don't have a dedicated observer pc which could be the difference.
On September 14 2017 06:54 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: About Wardi, I have nothing against his casting, and he is good, but I don't feel excitement in his voice.
I'm not saying he sounds monotone or doesn't express emotions, but I just don't feel excited when I hear his cast.
Sometimes the job of a caster isn't just to give blow by blow description, but to make the audience feel excited when a great play occurs. They are an amplifier to the audience, taking them to another level of fervor.
Baseball announcers are great at doing this.
SC2 casters that do this well are (in no particular order):
Tasteless Rotti ToD (although sometimes I can't understand him) ZG Kaelaris
Is your passion and understanding of the game actually that low that you literally need to be told when to be excited?
My bad, I probably worded that a little more harshly than I should have but jesus fucking christ...
when people talk about casters being exciting they're usually referring to charisma, which is not the same thing as "needing to be told when to be excited." in any case i don't think it's worth throwing heated words at people over how they prefer to have their games commentated. it's like arguing over the taste of apples.
i understand his point about wardi. i actually really like wardi, but he has a pretty slow and sleepy pace. it seems like that's just his personality though, which is fine. i'd rather have a subdued caster who's good than an excitable and bad caster like rifkin. i mean, what is wardi supposed to do? yell louder, scream and shout? if you're a quiet person those things come off as awkward and forced
anyway i get the idea behind this thread, but i think a lot of the criticisms are kind of silly because they boil down to the personality of the person casting. it's a diverse world and there are all kinds of personalities. some people think kaelaris is annoying, but i think he's hilarious and really fun. not much accounting for taste
the other thing is that sometimes casters can be surprisingly better/worse based on who they're paired with. i find rapid annoying with brendan, but for some reason i like him better with tasteless, and he was pretty good with zombiegrub too. i've been guilty of judging casters too harshly in the past, and i think we can all benefit from remembering that they're human beings who are just speaking in the voices and personalities they have. rarely is a caster so bad that it's worth trashing them and telling them to get out of the scene. and often even if you don't like a caster it's pretty easy to let them grow on you over time. i used to really dislike tastosis because i thought they had an elitist attitude, but not anymore, because i realized it's only natural for them to be comfortable and confident after years of doing what they do
Speaking of Tastosis, does anyone else feel like Tasteless is calling games wayyyyyy to early lately? Every time one of the players is even just slightly winning, he calls the game finished and then continues to correct himself as many times as the lead changes, each time saying how stupid he was to call the game early and then doing it again. I can understand that you shouldnt lie to your audience and desperately try to keep tension in a decided game, but hes always doing it when there are still chances for the "losing" player. Maybe I just didnt notice it as much earlier, but now its getting to a point where I'm seriously looking out for alternative streams...
On October 02 2017 00:59 Kerdinand wrote: Speaking of Tastosis, does anyone else feel like Tasteless is calling games wayyyyyy to early lately? Every time one of the players is even just slightly winning, he calls the game finished and then continues to correct himself as many times as the lead changes, each time saying how stupid he was to call the game early and then doing it again. I can understand that you shouldnt lie to your audience and desperately try to keep tension in a decided game, but hes always doing it when there are still chances for the "losing" player. Maybe I just didnt notice it as much earlier, but now its getting to a point where I'm seriously looking out for alternative streams...
Yes he does do this often, and I've gotten accustomed to it. I'm not particularly offended by it. I used to be though when I was watching him on GomTv.
I like Zombie because she rarely calls a game too early.
Thanks brckrd, for understanding my post. I thought I made myself clear, but some people might interpret my posts differently.
ZombieGrub is really good. She knows a lot about the game and tries to keep it simple. Especially when paired up with a pro / analytical caster, she really shines.
On October 01 2017 22:17 IcemanAsi wrote: Thinking about artosis and tastless, I would love to see more active commentary during the early game. They usually take that time for more personal chatter which is fine but I think they gloss over stuff that while aimed at higher levels is actually really important.
Minor build deviations, overlord scouting paths, gas pull outs, all the tiny details that are actually the difference between crucial variations of similar builds. I think they are casting from a video feed and don't have a dedicated observer pc which could be the difference.
at the GSL Super Tournament they were casting off of the same screen the audience was watching so it was tough for them to provide insights you get by looking at stuff the main observer cam does not show.
in general, i found Tastosis sometimes discuss minor variations in early builds that make a huge difference later on. i wish they would do it every game. for important tourneys where they know Blizz is watching Tastosis lowers the quantity of personal story chat and their work improves accordingly.
On July 23 2017 10:57 ScrappyRabbit wrote: I'll start by saying that there's too much negativity in the gaming community, the SC2 community, and the internet in general, which is why I'm treading carefully here.
That said, one of the casters (I won't say which region he's in, or how long he's been on the scene) is driving me absolutely up the wall, to the point where matches I should LOVE watching end up being only okay, and I end up not watching good matches when I know he's on the desk.
I want to vent about this guy, and maybe find some people to vent with me, and since this is a small community, maybe get some improvements, but at the same time, I don't want to be some internet jerk crapping on a dude working hard and trying his best in a tough industry.
I mean, I wish the guy the best in his life and congratulate him on the success he's had, but his casting is becoming an issue that's making the game worse for me, and might be doing the same for others. TL, what's the right thing to do here?
I absolutely hate it when people hate on casters. Your wasting your time here; trust me. No one wants to hear your whining, it does absolutely nothing.
I believe casting could get a lot better if the casters wouldn't do it 100% life, but with a little delay... watch the game life, make notes, cast from the replay right afterwards. Then also slow down the replay to show and comment on all parts of a multiprong if needed, switch to player views to double check if they really clicked on that building warp-in. That kind of thing.
That way you could also make sure you don't miss anything, and spend less words on pointless predictions. I like it when they think into the player expectations (like "Rouge saw four gas taken, so he probably expects mass oracle"), but anything that is their own, full-information prediction is just silly (I feel Rouge is going to attack soon).
I can only be thankful to all our casters and folks behind the shows. In no other sports I could say I watch because of the commentators. I watch those to see my team or to see great players. In Sc2 however I think I can say its mostly the personalities presenting me the game that I watch for. Where else do you actually get to know these people and on top feel alot of sympathy for them? I think I never encountered a sc2 caster that I truly disliked. Sure I enjoy some more than others, but none of them annoy me.
Also the day tastosis stop talking random stuff in the beginning of games may be the day I stop watching their show. I love it and its great we have diversity from calm to loud from funny to analytical and so on.
About Wardii. I love his casting and all the work he does for the community, but the one thing that always bothers me is how he uses the phrase " [unit] is just going to come up here and see what he can get up to" about 20 times every game. Maybe it's just me, but as a phrase it's just a painfully obvious filler sentence and the fact that it's always said in the exact same way bothers me perhaps way more than it should.
Everything else is great, but I think that removing or at least reducing that phrase from your caster lexicon would be a great improvement
when Tastsosis are not screwing around during an anonymous midweek early round GSL match.... they are an order of magnitude better than any other casters. they have been awesome this weekend. the rest of the casters ranged from solid to very good. so this means Tastosis are better than John Madden level good.
Tastosis > Madden Bravo Gentlemen, i hope Blizz sells a million of those Tastosis Voice Packs this week... and you guys fill your pockets with money. ( and hide it from the government so you don't get taxed on it )
On October 02 2017 23:56 virpi wrote: ZombieGrub is really good. She knows a lot about the game and tries to keep it simple. Especially when paired up with a pro / analytical caster, she really shines.
in the couple of hours i watched her cast a week or 2 ago in Toronto(?) she made several incorrect calls and basic flubs projecting circumstances that occurred 1 minute into the future.
Not sure if the casters have their own make-up artists or not but that shit was laid on THICK. These dudes have an excess amount of make-up on their face during the WCS global finals. Looks bad.
I feel for ZG she's on the BIG stage so there could easily be some nerves there, but she really should take a step back from her usual style and let Artosis do more of the share of the work, he is the best in the business so she shouldn't have to revert into her solo cast style next to him. It feels weird to see him being reverted to a color commentary role next to her.
its white knight time! i bet you the entire casting team sorted that kind of stuff out before the match and decided to let ZG do play-by-play for an early round match because for the most important matches of Blizzcon we know it'll be Tastosis with each guy in their usual role.
I liked the match-up between ZG and Artosis! She did a great job at analyzing, Artosis agreed with her, he didn't have to school her once! Artosis is a classy guy and doesn't have a problem letting a competent player analyze the game. They had good chemistry for a first time casting team.
@JimmyJRaynor I agree, finals will be Tastosis for sure! Best casting team there is!
i just like to see some variety throughout the weekend. maybe by doing some colour commentary it'll help Artosis expand his "range" as a broadcaster. the only broadcasting team better than Tastosis is + Show Spoiler +
Yeah Waardi actually somewhat fit a primier tournament setting, which is quite a compliment. He repeated some thing about Showtime a few too many times on the analyst desk, but other than that it was quite enjoyable. It's mostly a lack of charisma from him and moreso ZombieGrub that is the reason they aren't preached like the other casters, but maybe they just need more time to grow on me.
Who was the caster with Artosis on the last round of GSL? He casted Hero vs Ragnarok I think, I really enjoyed his casting, and he gave a lot of useful insight to some, like me, who does not play seriously anymore.
Who was the caster with Artosis on the last round of GSL? He casted Hero vs Ragnarok I think, I really enjoyed his casting, and he gave a lot of useful insight to some, like me, who does not play seriously anymore.
Are they expecting a lot of first-time viewers for IEM Pyeongchang? Tasteless seemed to be explaining much more basic concepts than he usually does yesterday, and in the game I'm watching now Nathanias is explaining that Blink is a "short-range teleport" ability, what Charge does, and that Protoss shields naturally regenerate but they have no way of healing hull damage. Not good or bad, just something interesting that I noticed.
And I thought NoRegreT did a great job as well -- I don't think there are enough casters who play Zerg (or Terran), or who play or have played at the pro level, and he obviously fits both those descriptions. (Miss you, Moonglade!) I would have liked to hear him explain why he takes such a unique approach to the game a bit more, but keeping the focus on the players who were going against each other isn't something I'm going to complain about.
On February 06 2018 14:56 ScrappyRabbit wrote: Are they expecting a lot of first-time viewers for IEM Pyeongchang? Tasteless seemed to be explaining much more basic concepts than he usually does yesterday, and in the game I'm watching now Nathanias is explaining that Blink is a "short-range teleport" ability, what Charge does, and that Protoss shields naturally regenerate but they have no way of healing hull damage. Not good or bad, just something interesting that I noticed.
Yeah, very clearly. All casters are explaining way more basic stuff than normally.
Just wanted to post here and thank everyone for all the feedback in general of all casting styles. It's great to see a lot of constructive criticism and comments about general casting concepts like when game analysis works best and how information is preferred to be presented.
We're all in this together so if you have any specific feedback on my recent casting at WESG, any past casts, or characteristics you enjoy from casters you like I'd love to hear it!
Tastosis has been very good at this season's GSL. In later GSL rounds Tastosis is always very good. I find that for early round, non-descript, mid-week games that Tastosis sometimes devolves into too many personal jokes along with 2-minute giggling fits. That rarely occurred this season. I'm impressed they kept their casting at a very high level during all parts of this season. It is probably not easy to grind out every single match in this way.. doing so makes my random GSL watching a better experience.
Most casters are good, but lately the anti-Terran casting bias is on overdrive.
I've seen countless games where there is a Zerg player on mass spore/infestor/viper/with 15 broodlords, and all casters are doing the last few weeks is circlejerking ravens?
What do you want the Terran player to do in these situations casters? Instalose the game? I think it's appreciated that casters talk about trends and balance and be open about it, but the sheer bias of last weeks is really just ludicrous.
Every time more than 2 ravens are made it's a catastrophic event of imbalance where casters need to repeatedly and incorrectly say that ravens are OP meanwhile they ignore the 10+ raven vikings that instantly died in 3 seconds in the same fight to 4 parasitic bombs.
Stop. This. It's either just ignorance on the part of casters or extreme anti-terran bias. And i think they just kinda fell into it by accident, but it's very real lately in a lot of casts. If you're going to try to attempt to call something imbalanced, which is Terran's only option late game....
Then maybe start criticizing Blizzard's decision of allowing 15 carriers + 5 high templar to be an end game army, as well as the brood/infestor/viper parasitic bomb armies.
Again, i think it's great casters point out trends and balance in general, and hell, even off their own opinions too. But the raven bashing lately is getting really grating on viewers ears, and it's also Terran's only option lategame and Blizzard WILL end up nerfing this due to perceived outcry when every caster right now is cluelessly bashing ravens and not correspondingly bashing mass carrier+HT as well as end game Zerg.
Equally comment on all the races late games that's all just some criticism :D
A while back the caster Wolf started using the phrases "tempo-based play" and "tempo advantage" a lot while casting. He used one of these phrases in pretty much every game he cast. He would say the phrase in connection with one of the players, and then move on, as if his words were meaningful, important, and complete. In this season of the GSL, to my great dismay, I heard Artosis use the word in a similar way (but only one time, and with an explanatory remark). (See also this thread for further discussion of the meaning of "tempo" in StarCraft casting and analysis.)
The word "tempo" is defined to mean the "rate of motion or activity", it is a synonym for "pace" (see Webster). Therefore it is a great word for describing competitive StarCraft play. It is a "fast-paced game" and therefore a "high tempo" game. Professional players routinely hit 300-500 actions per minute (APM) in a game, hence it has a very high "rate of motion or activity."
Indeed it is an "RTS" game, or "real-time strategy". The fact that how fast you get things done matters (rather than being turn-based) means that tempo is part of every single game of StarCraft.
When someone has an upgrade advantage, you could call it a "tempo advantage". But if you only call it a "tempo advantage" and don't mention upgrades, it is ambiguous as to what the tempo advantage is. So why wouldn't you just call it an upgrade advantage? What if one player has an upgrade advantage, while his opponent has higher tech units. Which one has the "tempo advantage"? Well they both have a tempo advantage, just not the same one. It's far more descriptive to say one player has an upgrade advantage, and the other player has a high-tech unit advantage. Just saying someone has a "tempo advantage" is ambiguous.
What if one player made a bigger army? You could call it a tempo advantage, because he made more things in the same amount of time. But why wouldn't you just say he has "the bigger army" or "an army advantage", rather than "a tempo advantage" and not mention army at all?
The clearest case for the use of the phrase "tempo advantage" is when one player's APM is much higher than the other's. He has a higher "rate of motion or activity." Any other use of the phrase is kind of odd. But even there, why wouldn't you just say he has an APM advantage? It would still be clearer what you meant -- as people have various opinions about the significance and meaning of APM too.
"Tempo-based play" is even worse. All play in StarCraft relates to tempo. Everyone is trying to "get ahead" of his opponent. Every single goal a player has in the game in competitive play is only meaningful in the context of where he is relative to his opponent at a given moment in time.
Just to add my thumbs up to great casting.... I always look forward to the GSL because it feels like I get to hang out with Tastosis again. Artosis consistently brings an informed, expert opinion to game analysis; and Tasteless keeps getting better, and getting more calls right, every season. You guys are great and I'd love to grab a beer with you sometime. Please keep studying the game, sharing your knowledge with us, and please stay friends and keep casting together.
I thought RotterdaM, Lowko, and Wardi did a very good job casting WESG Haikou. I particularly enjoyed RotterdaM's introduction to the Reynor v. Classic match. I thought ToD's casting at IEM this year was good, and I think he's improved a lot over the last couple years.
As for newer casters, I've really enjoyed what ZombieGrub has brought to the casting desk. Often she seems like a young Artosis, bringing an informed, expert understanding of the current meta and in-game decision-making and battle analysis in competitive play.
I miss Day[9]. I watched him complete a PhD in StarCraft and it was awesome.
I don't know if it is Valdez or Rapid, but one of those guys (the one that speaks more fast and nervous) was calling a lot of fights and micro wrongly. But it wasn't a bad cast.
There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
On April 09 2018 08:15 sc-darkness wrote: I think Rifkin handled the case with NoRegret poorly. Community user shouldn't have paid $1500 regardless of who is right.
The Rifkin/NoRegreT situation is not a feedback that is related to casters and their casting. Please don't bring it up in this thread.
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Why can't you ever just say "that's an interesting perspective, maybe I'll think about that?"
That guy even posted in a constructive, polite way.
I understand that you get a lot of feedback that's unhelpful, and a lot of feedback that's just plain negative and insulting. But if the only tone you can accept feedback from is 'utterly deferential and apologizing to be critical at all'—I don't know, that's just such a bad place to start from.
I mean, maybe your experience over the last X years has made it so you have to take all feedback that way. But man, it kinda sucks.
I just read this whole discussion and I didn't see one thing mentioned: I think it's awkward when casters look into the camera without saying anything like they are staring into my soul or don't know what else to do. Just act like you are listening to what your partner is going on about; BE NATURAL! it throws me off when you guys do that.
still, i love you guys!!!! <3 <3 <3 tastosis, rotti, maynarde, tod, pig, ZG, wardi, lowko and y'all, u r the best!
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
That's a good thing to point out. One of the enjoyable things about the laidback casting of players at the likes of Homestory cup is that they often try to figure out the strat/tactics of the players in the match and gve their thoughts and insights as to how their experiences are in how to counter what is happening or how hard it is to hold, etc. They'll often sit back for a few seconds and see what happens.
Yes, there are times when they completely balls it up, but I often find the depth of moment-to-moment analysis enjoyable, and it is quite light on filler.
As for pauses, I agree in principle also. A lot can happen in 5 seconds of a match.
Also a big shout out to Valdes and Rapid for their cast of the GSL finals, you did good.
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Why can't you ever just say "that's an interesting perspective, maybe I'll think about that?"
That guy even posted in a constructive, polite way.
I understand that you get a lot of feedback that's unhelpful, and a lot of feedback that's just plain negative and insulting. But if the only tone you can accept feedback from is 'utterly deferential and apologizing to be critical at all'—I don't know, that's just such a bad place to start from.
I mean, maybe your experience over the last X years has made it so you have to take all feedback that way. But man, it kinda sucks.
I think you'd be one of the absolute last people I'd ever even consider taking advice from in regards to "can you say things non douchey"
Lol wax You are straight up an asshole and I think you know it. Lets pretend here for a second you aren't throwing rocks in a glass house and just chill your tits lol
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Why can't you ever just say "that's an interesting perspective, maybe I'll think about that?"
That guy even posted in a constructive, polite way.
I understand that you get a lot of feedback that's unhelpful, and a lot of feedback that's just plain negative and insulting. But if the only tone you can accept feedback from is 'utterly deferential and apologizing to be critical at all'—I don't know, that's just such a bad place to start from.
I mean, maybe your experience over the last X years has made it so you have to take all feedback that way. But man, it kinda sucks.
I think you'd be one of the absolute last people I'd ever even consider taking advice from in regards to "can you say things non douchey"
Lol wax You are straight up an asshole and I think you know it. Lets pretend here for a second you aren't throwing rocks in a glass house and just chill your tits lol
Sure, if you want to shoot the messenger, then that's fine. I don't really care much about what people say about me.
I feel like we're in real deep TotalBiscuit territory here, where I actually like your casting a lot, but I think it's weird that I need to have to couch pretty benign remarks in "hey man I really like your work, BUT...." (not that you have to believe me, but whatever). And I get that even benign criticism can become a kind of droning annoyance. Maybe it could even become so bad that you need to tune it out altogether—I don't have to deal with people criticizing me on a daily basis, so I can't say I understand that.
But in any case, that's a long-winded way of saying maybe cut that dude a break.
My personal, tiny little wish would be to stop doing player introductions each time a new map loads on online events. It feels forced and unnecessary when there is no live crowd to make noise. I suppose this may be decided by production rather than the casters, but I don't know where else to put this.
On April 09 2018 08:15 sc-darkness wrote: I think Rifkin handled the case with NoRegret poorly. Community user shouldn't have paid $1500 regardless of who is right.
The Rifkin/NoRegreT situation is not a feedback that is related to casters and their casting. Please don't bring it up in this thread.
Are you sure? Warning says all feedback. Maybe reword it so it's less ambigious.
All constructive criticism and feedback toward casters will go here. This thread will be moderated and watched carefully so be wary of what you post!
On April 09 2018 19:29 stormssc wrote: My personal, tiny little wish would be to stop doing player introductions each time a new map loads on online events. It feels forced and unnecessary when there is no live crowd to make noise. I suppose this may be decided by production rather than the casters, but I don't know where else to put this.
Yeah I agree, it has always felt weird to me as well. But I guess it's nice to have something to say in the very first few seconds when nothing special is happening.
On April 09 2018 19:29 stormssc wrote: My personal, tiny little wish would be to stop doing player introductions each time a new map loads on online events. It feels forced and unnecessary when there is no live crowd to make noise. I suppose this may be decided by production rather than the casters, but I don't know where else to put this.
Yeah I agree, it has always felt weird to me as well. But I guess it's nice to have something to say in the very first few seconds when nothing special is happening.
What? Now way! I think they're great - online events risk lacking in the energy of a lan so anything to make it feel more like a 'live' event.
All constructive criticism and feedback toward casters will go here. This thread will be moderated and watched carefully so be wary of what you post!
This is not a contradiction. This thread is for casting feedback. Rifkin is a caster yes, but that incident does not involve him a caster, it involves him as a businessman, house manager, whatever you want to call it.
If this thread existed in 2013, you wouldn't post feedback about how TotalBiscuit should manage his team Axiom here, would you? Because it has nothing to do with casting.
On April 09 2018 08:15 sc-darkness wrote: I think Rifkin handled the case with NoRegret poorly. Community user shouldn't have paid $1500 regardless of who is right.
The Rifkin/NoRegreT situation is not a feedback that is related to casters and their casting. Please don't bring it up in this thread.
Are you sure? Warning says all feedback. Maybe reword it so it's less ambigious.
I will be completely honnest on this. Most of the time I'm not a big fan of the casting in starcraft 2. Why ? Because the casters are just saying the obvious, and don't explain much of the timing or of the thought process of the player. That being said, I also appreciate casters with enjoyable personnalities, such as Incontrol for example. Tastosis is also a pretty nice duo to hear. So, you are going to ask me, is there any caster that I appreciate ? Well yes, and especially at the homestorycup, when the casting is made by pro-players. I truelly feel some are really talented at this, and it's a shame that they don't have the opportunity of doing this more often.Their explanations, or read about the game they cast, are always interesting (+ some are really fun). When I say this, Mana is coming to my mind, Demuslim, CatZ, Destiny (when he used to play) and so much more that I forget ... And even ... Avilo ! I feel like he is pretty good at casting, and is showing quite a nice knowledge about the game despite people can say. He is also really entertaining. That being said, I'm a terran player, so I'm not getting triggered that much by his bias, so I could defenitely understand that protoss or zergs players have more difficulties. That is one of the main reason HSC was (and still is) my favorite tournament. Making the players cast, is really, really nice.
On April 09 2018 20:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: the BTSL commentary by Rifkin and Maynarde of the Hero//Gumiho game 1 and 2 was quite insightful and entertaining.
On April 09 2018 08:15 sc-darkness wrote: I think Rifkin handled the case with NoRegret poorly. Community user shouldn't have paid $1500 regardless of who is right.
The Rifkin/NoRegreT situation is not a feedback that is related to casters and their casting. Please don't bring it up in this thread.
Are you sure? Warning says all feedback. Maybe reword it so it's less ambigious.
All constructive criticism and feedback toward casters will go here. This thread will be moderated and watched carefully so be wary of what you post!
your point is quite "nit picky" but it is correct. so good point. The warning message could be made more precise.
I'm glad you agree. The minimum change is just one word. Then, it will be clearer what could go here.
All constructive criticism and feedback toward casting will go here. This thread will be moderated and watched carefully so be wary of what you post!
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Even Redeye told this once somewhere - that in sports commentary they are not saying the obvious unless it's building the hype. Not sure how this works in US, but I've never heard a commentary in the form of "Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Alba! Alba to Pique, Pique to Alba, Alba to Messi" (etc.) Instead what I usually hear is "Barcelona have the ball, they keep the possession" or they don't mention anything and just leave the viewer to see it. I think it was said in the show with the marine who did the talkshow(Lycan? some form of vampire name, I believe )
It would be nice to have sometimes the other way, not all the time listen to "we're talk until your ears fall off " style
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Not sure how this works in US, but I've never heard a commentary in the form of "Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Alba! Alba to Pique, Pique to Alba, Alba to Messi" (etc.)
On April 09 2018 20:48 WhiteSPiriT wrote: I will be completely honnest on this. Most of the time I'm not a big fan of the casting in starcraft 2. Why ? Because the casters are just saying the obvious, and don't explain much of the timing or of the thought process of the player. That being said, I also appreciate casters with enjoyable personnalities, such as Incontrol for example. Tastosis is also a pretty nice duo to hear. So, you are going to ask me, is there any caster that I appreciate ? Well yes, and especially at the homestorycup, when the casting is made by pro-players. I truelly feel some are really talented at this, and it's a shame that they don't have the opportunity of doing this more often.Their explanations, or read about the game they cast, are always interesting (+ some are really fun). When I say this, Mana is coming to my mind, Demuslim, CatZ, Destiny (when he used to play) and so much more that I forget ... And even ... Avilo ! I feel like he is pretty good at casting, and is showing quite a nice knowledge about the game despite people can say. He is also really entertaining. That being said, I'm a terran player, so I'm not getting triggered that much by his bias, so I could defenitely understand that protoss or zergs players have more difficulties. That is one of the main reason HSC was (and still is) my favorite tournament. Making the players cast, is really, really nice.
I do agree with this. But I also understand how difficult it must be for tastosis. Even though they are full time casters so it would seem like their full time job is to know the finer details of builds, it is really hard to find time to learn it all for a couple reasons.
* They already have to study and remember facts about each players and their story lines * They don't have the privilege of statisticians constantly handing them info like on ESPN casters * They not only cast multiple events involving a hundred different players, but they also cast different games involving a whole set of other players * They simply don't have the time to play the game like they used too before being full time casters
In my time as a caster, my biggest feedback from veteran players is that I play the game more so I understand the build orders. But if a Starcraft 1 game suddenly takes 40 minutes out of my day, then I lost time doing other things that could contribute to the cast. For a pair like tastosis it is harder then the standard Dota 2 or league caster because none of them are crossover casters in the same manner that tastosis is. And to be fair, even though DOTA and League have had changes/heroes added, it does not compare to the niches and meta shifts that happen every Blizzard patch. It's simply exhausting to think about how as an RTS caster you have to keep re-wiring your brain because a player who played 5 thousand games found a new way to define a matchup.
This is the plight of all sportscasters. Not a single NBA commentator fully understands the thinking behind Brad Steven's zone defense. When reporters try to ask the players detailed questions about their defense ... the players say "we are sticking to the system" and they never answer the question. They don't want us to know what they are thinking.
I'm not expecting ESPN to fully explain why every switch occurs in an NBA defensive set. As long as they can take me 1 or 2 layers beneath the surface of what i can see with my own eyes... i'm happy.
Same with SC2 commentators. I'm not expecting Tastosis to take me inside Flash's head. Tastosis offers a nice level of insight for me to be entertained. As well as providing a degree of insight... Tastosis is good at enjoying the surprises of the game along with me.
On April 10 2018 01:57 deacon.frost wrote: Even Redeye told this once somewhere - that in sports commentary they are not saying the obvious unless it's building the hype.
in North America the "play-by-play" commentator says the obvious constantly. its the role of the play-by-play guy to do that. it helps inexperienced viewers follow what is going on. "he shoots ... he scores" is one of the most common phrases in hockey commentary.
On April 10 2018 03:01 BisuDagger wrote: I do agree with this. But I also understand how difficult it must be for tastosis. Even though they are full time casters so it would seem like their full time job is to know the finer details of builds, it is really hard to find time to learn it all for a couple reasons.
* They already have to study and remember facts about each players and their story lines * They don't have the privilege of statisticians constantly handing them info like on ESPN casters * They not only cast multiple events involving a hundred different players, but they also cast different games involving a whole set of other players * They simply don't have the time to play the game like they used too before being full time casters
In my time as a caster, my biggest feedback from veteran players is that I play the game more so I understand the build orders. But if a Starcraft 1 game suddenly takes 40 minutes out of my day, then I lost time doing other things that could contribute to the cast. For a pair like tastosis it is harder then the standard Dota 2 or league caster because none of them are crossover casters in the same manner that tastosis is. And to be fair, even though DOTA and League have had changes/heroes added, it does not compare to the niches and meta shifts that happen every Blizzard patch. It's simply exhausting to think about how as an RTS caster you have to keep re-wiring your brain because a player who played 5 thousand games found a new way to define a matchup.
It is really interesting to have the opinion of a caster on the subject. And I definetely agree that it's more easy to criticize something than actually understand the all work behind it. I'm a member of the french community, and at some point, a few years ago, a french pro-player that retired of the game, made a post that people discussed a lot on. He was mostly saying that being a caster is way more easier and forgiving than actually being a player that needs to practice everyday and have goods results. And it's a easier way to make monney, why ? Because it's easier to make a fan base, people know you because they hear you casting if they want to see a competition. Than having to build a stream as a pro player and make an audience + the practice you need. Obviously, I don't agree with this, because of the facts you pointed out. And I would even add, it needs a lot of work to be entertaining, or just speak properly live (as crazy as it sounds, it is actually complicated, but I'm sure you already know that ahah).
That being said, I feel like, despite not playing the game as much as you want to, because you don't have the time, your game knowledge should improve a lot by just simply watch games. The more you see, the more you understand the meta, the builds, the timings ... Even tho you will be quite "meh" mechanically, your knowledge will be good. And that's something I feel quite a lot of casters are missing, and I really don't understand the why. Maybe this is such a complex game, that needs to be played everyday to be perfectly understood, no other way. I remember one time watching CatZ analysis, how amazed I was of how his analysis of the game was pushed, even things I never thought would matter in this game. It's quite a shame that we can't see more of that deepness in some casts. But thanks to put some light on the caster work, I don't have any friends or contacts doing it, so it really helps to see the other side and what it implies.
EDIT : I didn't see the previous post, and to this I would just say quite the same thing, sure, you don't need the caster to go in full analysis mode for you to enjoy watching it. But I feel because of that, we still miss something that can be so much interesting, things that we don't even think of.
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Yes this is my preferences. I do prefer when a commentary gives off a conversational vibe, not only broadcast. My point however was that sometime pausing is fine.
Look, my opinion is this isn't radio. Both casters and viewers enjoy a solid visual medium for a commentary, which is the game itself. Trying to follow it can already be a bit tricky, which is when casters come in and why they are valuable. But I sometimes feel I get tired trying to filter out useless comments while maintaining a focus on the game. This is my personal experience as a viewer, I do not enjoy a casting when it feels like the audio commentary is battling the seeable game for primary medium of conveying informations.
Now, this is not to say that this is the only thing I'm experiencing, but I am saying it happens and I do think uninterrupted talking is a big part of it.
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Why can't you ever just say "that's an interesting perspective, maybe I'll think about that?"
That guy even posted in a constructive, polite way.
I understand that you get a lot of feedback that's unhelpful, and a lot of feedback that's just plain negative and insulting. But if the only tone you can accept feedback from is 'utterly deferential and apologizing to be critical at all'—I don't know, that's just such a bad place to start from.
I mean, maybe your experience over the last X years has made it so you have to take all feedback that way. But man, it kinda sucks.
I think you'd be one of the absolute last people I'd ever even consider taking advice from in regards to "can you say things non douchey"
Lol wax You are straight up an asshole and I think you know it. Lets pretend here for a second you aren't throwing rocks in a glass house and just chill your tits lol
Sure, if you want to shoot the messenger, then that's fine. I don't really care much about what people say about me.
I feel like we're in real deep TotalBiscuit territory here, where I actually like your casting a lot, but I think it's weird that I need to have to couch pretty benign remarks in "hey man I really like your work, BUT...." (not that you have to believe me, but whatever). And I get that even benign criticism can become a kind of droning annoyance. Maybe it could even become so bad that you need to tune it out altogether—I don't have to deal with people criticizing me on a daily basis, so I can't say I understand that.
But in any case, that's a long-winded way of saying maybe cut that dude a break.
I dunno man. I just think you are coming at me at an odd time.. like if you want to tell me to give a guy a break or chill you probably can find a better post where I go right to the "you're dumb" thing which I do far too often.. the post in question I don't even see what I said that is so bad? I didn't think I was attacking the guy or anything..
In any case I hear you and will try and respond less angsty I suppose I just honestly am not sure where I did that here.
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Even Redeye told this once somewhere - that in sports commentary they are not saying the obvious unless it's building the hype. Not sure how this works in US, but I've never heard a commentary in the form of "Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Alba! Alba to Pique, Pique to Alba, Alba to Messi" (etc.) Instead what I usually hear is "Barcelona have the ball, they keep the possession" or they don't mention anything and just leave the viewer to see it. I think it was said in the show with the marine who did the talkshow(Lycan? some form of vampire name, I believe )
It would be nice to have sometimes the other way, not all the time listen to "we're talk until your ears fall off " style
Comparing starcraft commentary to football >_< I don't think that works.
Look, the idea that a commentator can at times not say something and that is OK is not controversial and I agree. I think coming to a thread and saying all commentators need to always have conversational tones and breaks in their speech is silly. It's stylistic and a preference.. it's not an actual mechanical aspect of the craft that all commentators must adhere to. Like, literally you are arguing because they do it in football they should do it in sc2.. and presumably all commentary ever? I don't think that sounds reasonable.
Anyways, this isn't a huge hot button subject and apparently wax thinks I am being mean so I will dial it back.
Tastosis called True's win at WCS-Montreal... "The Montreal Massacre". Hopefully, no social justice warriors at Blizzard were listening in on the GSL Super Tournament because Tasteless shouldn't have to apologize. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_Polytechnique_massacre
Just wanted to say that I was impressed with Coltarren's casting of the WCS NA qualifiers. He seemed very tired from what little I saw of it during the first day's proceedings (but then he did have to cast two +1 hour games in a row with the psychological attacks that are scans) but seemed to be greatly improved and rejuvenated for the second day. Very well done .
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Even Redeye told this once somewhere - that in sports commentary they are not saying the obvious unless it's building the hype. Not sure how this works in US, but I've never heard a commentary in the form of "Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Alba! Alba to Pique, Pique to Alba, Alba to Messi" (etc.) Instead what I usually hear is "Barcelona have the ball, they keep the possession" or they don't mention anything and just leave the viewer to see it. I think it was said in the show with the marine who did the talkshow(Lycan? some form of vampire name, I believe )
It would be nice to have sometimes the other way, not all the time listen to "we're talk until your ears fall off " style
Comparing starcraft commentary to football >_< I don't think that works.
Look, the idea that a commentator can at times not say something and that is OK is not controversial and I agree. I think coming to a thread and saying all commentators need to always have conversational tones and breaks in their speech is silly. It's stylistic and a preference.. it's not an actual mechanical aspect of the craft that all commentators must adhere to. Like, literally you are arguing because they do it in football they should do it in sc2.. and presumably all commentary ever? I don't think that sounds reasonable.
Anyways, this isn't a huge hot button subject and apparently wax thinks I am being mean so I will dial it back.
Question of curiosity iNcontrol, but what do YOU like to see for StarCraft casters?
I'd like to hear your opinion, seeing how you're actually a caster. Apologizes if you've been asked this before.
On April 11 2018 06:51 DSK wrote: Just wanted to say that I was impressed with Coltarren's casting of the WCS NA qualifiers. He seemed very tired from what little I saw of it during the first day's proceedings (but then he did have to cast two +1 hour games in a row with the psychological attacks that are scans) but seemed to be greatly improved and rejuvenated for the second day. Very well done .
I didn't watch all his casting, but only caught his Avilo vs TheRiddler.
Oh man, I feel really sorry for him. Watching it was painful enough, but having to cast Avilo's games... Coltarren had literally nothing to say during the lategame. Turtlefests can be so boring when one side plays the Eternal Tortoise style of Avilo, but having to cast that drivel...
Coltarren, if you're reading this, you're my hero for casting that match. Respect to you.
edit: oh and true to his modus operandi, Avilo accused his opponent of hacking than proceeded to pause/ragequit.
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Even Redeye told this once somewhere - that in sports commentary they are not saying the obvious unless it's building the hype. Not sure how this works in US, but I've never heard a commentary in the form of "Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Alba! Alba to Pique, Pique to Alba, Alba to Messi" (etc.) Instead what I usually hear is "Barcelona have the ball, they keep the possession" or they don't mention anything and just leave the viewer to see it. I think it was said in the show with the marine who did the talkshow(Lycan? some form of vampire name, I believe )
It would be nice to have sometimes the other way, not all the time listen to "we're talk until your ears fall off " style
Comparing starcraft commentary to football >_< I don't think that works.
Look, the idea that a commentator can at times not say something and that is OK is not controversial and I agree. I think coming to a thread and saying all commentators need to always have conversational tones and breaks in their speech is silly. It's stylistic and a preference.. it's not an actual mechanical aspect of the craft that all commentators must adhere to. Like, literally you are arguing because they do it in football they should do it in sc2.. and presumably all commentary ever? I don't think that sounds reasonable.
Anyways, this isn't a huge hot button subject and apparently wax thinks I am being mean so I will dial it back.
Question of curiosity iNcontrol, but what do YOU like to see for StarCraft casters?
I'd like to hear your opinion, seeing how you're actually a caster. Apologizes if you've been asked this before.
Nah I actually am never asked this, thank you for asking.
I don't have any one thing I prefer/like in a commentator but I guess I have realized I respect the hell out of a certain degree of polish. To be frank I wasn't the biggest fan of Kaelaris hosting 2 or so years ago but last year and this year he has entered a REALLY good form where I think he handles jokes well, transitions, has a lot of confidence and generally contributes without dominating. He is superb. I think a lot of it comes from his experience in heroes but also establishing himself and not needing to worry that he may not get a gig etc.. which is an interesting aspect that not all personalities have.
I also am of course very biased towards wit. If someone can take a moment and flawlessly commentate it but also compare it to previous events or tie it into a fun conversation I am usually very entertained and I enjoy that style. Tasteless can be top notch at this.
I like a lot of things but this is some of it.. I guess finally when a commentator is truly losing it and going berzerk with excitement but still commentating and keeping a good rhythm I get all wiggly and jiggly like the rest of us. DOTA 2 has a LOT of those level commentators/moments.
Mahr casting for WCS challenge was cool. I didn't understand a thing because i don't speak german but it has nice flow of words and he was nice enough to follow Stephano's matches when we asked himm
I think the casters, most of them, especially the ones from big events are really really good.
I would like to mention Roterdam as probably the most passionate caster out there. The guy is also a freaking human sc2 wikipedia, even better than liquipedia.
Other then that, Artosis/Tasteless are still the high level image of casting.
There were also 2 guys, Rapid and one more, who were casting the GSL finals. I was really impressed with their casting level. They were for me like a young Tastosis.
Happy with the current state of caster, even if I miss Apollo and Incontrol.
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Even Redeye told this once somewhere - that in sports commentary they are not saying the obvious unless it's building the hype. Not sure how this works in US, but I've never heard a commentary in the form of "Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Pique, Pique to Messi, Messi to Alba! Alba to Pique, Pique to Alba, Alba to Messi" (etc.) Instead what I usually hear is "Barcelona have the ball, they keep the possession" or they don't mention anything and just leave the viewer to see it. I think it was said in the show with the marine who did the talkshow(Lycan? some form of vampire name, I believe )
It would be nice to have sometimes the other way, not all the time listen to "we're talk until your ears fall off " style
Comparing starcraft commentary to football >_< I don't think that works.
Look, the idea that a commentator can at times not say something and that is OK is not controversial and I agree. I think coming to a thread and saying all commentators need to always have conversational tones and breaks in their speech is silly. It's stylistic and a preference.. it's not an actual mechanical aspect of the craft that all commentators must adhere to. Like, literally you are arguing because they do it in football they should do it in sc2.. and presumably all commentary ever? I don't think that sounds reasonable.
Anyways, this isn't a huge hot button subject and apparently wax thinks I am being mean so I will dial it back.
Question of curiosity iNcontrol, but what do YOU like to see for StarCraft casters?
I'd like to hear your opinion, seeing how you're actually a caster. Apologizes if you've been asked this before.
Nah I actually am never asked this, thank you for asking.
I don't have any one thing I prefer/like in a commentator but I guess I have realized I respect the hell out of a certain degree of polish. To be frank I wasn't the biggest fan of Kaelaris hosting 2 or so years ago but last year and this year he has entered a REALLY good form where I think he handles jokes well, transitions, has a lot of confidence and generally contributes without dominating. He is superb. I think a lot of it comes from his experience in heroes but also establishing himself and not needing to worry that he may not get a gig etc.. which is an interesting aspect that not all personalities have.
I also am of course very biased towards wit. If someone can take a moment and flawlessly commentate it but also compare it to previous events or tie it into a fun conversation I am usually very entertained and I enjoy that style. Tasteless can be top notch at this.
I like a lot of things but this is some of it.. I guess finally when a commentator is truly losing it and going berzerk with excitement but still commentating and keeping a good rhythm I get all wiggly and jiggly like the rest of us. DOTA 2 has a LOT of those level commentators/moments.
This is super interesting to hear about. Thanks for sharing that.
On April 10 2018 03:01 BisuDagger wrote: I do agree with this. But I also understand how difficult it must be for tastosis. Even though they are full time casters so it would seem like their full time job is to know the finer details of builds, it is really hard to find time to learn it all for a couple reasons.
* They already have to study and remember facts about each players and their story lines * They don't have the privilege of statisticians constantly handing them info like on ESPN casters * They not only cast multiple events involving a hundred different players, but they also cast different games involving a whole set of other players * They simply don't have the time to play the game like they used too before being full time casters
In my time as a caster, my biggest feedback from veteran players is that I play the game more so I understand the build orders. But if a Starcraft 1 game suddenly takes 40 minutes out of my day, then I lost time doing other things that could contribute to the cast. For a pair like tastosis it is harder then the standard Dota 2 or league caster because none of them are crossover casters in the same manner that tastosis is. And to be fair, even though DOTA and League have had changes/heroes added, it does not compare to the niches and meta shifts that happen every Blizzard patch. It's simply exhausting to think about how as an RTS caster you have to keep re-wiring your brain because a player who played 5 thousand games found a new way to define a matchup.
It is really interesting to have the opinion of a caster on the subject. And I definetely agree that it's more easy to criticize something than actually understand the all work behind it. I'm a member of the french community, and at some point, a few years ago, a french pro-player that retired of the game, made a post that people discussed a lot on. He was mostly saying that being a caster is way more easier and forgiving than actually being a player that needs to practice everyday and have goods results. And it's a easier way to make monney, why ? Because it's easier to make a fan base, people know you because they hear you casting if they want to see a competition. Than having to build a stream as a pro player and make an audience + the practice you need. Obviously, I don't agree with this, because of the facts you pointed out. And I would even add, it needs a lot of work to be entertaining, or just speak properly live (as crazy as it sounds, it is actually complicated, but I'm sure you already know that ahah).
That being said, I feel like, despite not playing the game as much as you want to, because you don't have the time, your game knowledge should improve a lot by just simply watch games. The more you see, the more you understand the meta, the builds, the timings ... Even tho you will be quite "meh" mechanically, your knowledge will be good. And that's something I feel quite a lot of casters are missing, and I really don't understand the why. Maybe this is such a complex game, that needs to be played everyday to be perfectly understood, no other way. I remember one time watching CatZ analysis, how amazed I was of how his analysis of the game was pushed, even things I never thought would matter in this game. It's quite a shame that we can't see more of that deepness in some casts. But thanks to put some light on the caster work, I don't have any friends or contacts doing it, so it really helps to see the other side and what it implies.
EDIT : I didn't see the previous post, and to this I would just say quite the same thing, sure, you don't need the caster to go in full analysis mode for you to enjoy watching it. But I feel because of that, we still miss something that can be so much interesting, things that we don't even think of.
Thank you for the love <3
I do think that good analysis relies on understanding of the game which mostly just requires logical thinking and basic game knowledge, knowing the "meta" helps because it's easier to dissect thought when it's repeatedly done, you can more easily find out the reasons something works or doesn't work by seeing it play out many times.
With that said I have grown fond of the (perhaps somewhat unpopular) opinion that there is a co-relation between a lack of knowledge and legitimate excitement / hype. I think that some of the best "hype" casters or play-by-play casters can get more genuinely excited understanding "less", whereas for someone that understands - for example - who "should" win a fight, the outcome and build up to it should be less genuinely exciting as uncertainty is lower. Uncertainty creates anticipation and excitement whereas on the opposite end certainty just "is". If you hypothetically -knew- the outcome of any given situation there would be no excitement to be had leading up to it.
For these reasons I think that 1 Analyst + 1 Play-by-play is a great casting combo. The only pet peeve I personally have is when people or casters assert confidently to information that isn't logical or is outright false in the context of starcraft and surrounding factors like the meta. To make a clear example, if caster said "Roaches are always good vs immortals" that information is close to being flat out wrong, so the spreading of it would bug the shit out of me because I feel is deceitful to an audience that might have an interest in 'learning'. A lot of information is or isn't necessarily flat out wrong but some information with the ground-rules of the game, the goal and the paths layed out can be more or less 'correct'. So I love casters who shout really loud and get super excited even if sometimes they don't know shit, i'm all for it - I love to see genuine excitement, just so long as leave the analysis to the analysts or don't make claims to knowledge they don't posses. Tasteless is a brilliant dude who imo isn't always fully aware of what the meta looks like, and yet most of almost everything he says tends to have a logical foundation, he understands RTS and is imo one of if not the best at "translating" basic and complex concepts to an audience and making good sense of why things are the way they are, while leaving the great majority of the analysis to Artosis who actively plays and studies the game and it's landscape, this is part of why Tastosis is my favorite casting duo, they just complement each other extremely well - my favorite tasteless battlecry sums up most of what I've tried to explain here, it is simply: "I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ONNN!!!"
I want to second the rotti hype because he really is the casters with the most knowledge and he can express it so well too
I also want to say thanks to Zombiegrub though for her female to contribution and her immense progress in casting skills during the last 6 months especially. I hope to see you at every WCS Curcuit event!
On April 23 2018 03:18 shadow111 wrote: I want to second the rotti hype because he really is the casters with the most knowledge and he can express it so well too
I also want to say thanks to Zombiegrub though for her female to contribution and her immense progress in casting skills during the last 6 months especially. I hope to see you at every WCS Curcuit event!
Honestly I never really thought about how much I love Rotti until recently. That guy has so much passion, game skill, etc...truly remarkable.
I think Valdes is extremely underrated, which is almost a part of his style. He's got a great casting voice (he's one of the few guys who sounds like he might have done some vocal training, which EVERYONE who ever appears on TV or the radio should do), he always keeps the viewer informed of what's happening with good analysis without ever dominating the broadcast, and the fact he appears to speak near-fluent Korean is a cool bonus.
He's not a guy who will make you bust a gut laughing, or blow your mind with meta insight, or provide a crazy "hype" moment, but those are the things I like about him -- he just does his job extremely well and lets his partner go for style points. Him, along with Tasteless, are the two guys who I think you could put next to any other commentator and have the broadcast instantly work. (Although Tasteless obviously levels up when he's with Artosis.)
Not sure if just me but I thought that the Korean PeopleImages Group was very well done. Great interviews and I loved the caster/pro pairing (triple cast was maybe a little too ambitious). Good Job, Rifkin! (assumming it was your idea) You're a great tournament organizer!
On April 24 2018 17:11 ScrappyRabbit wrote: I think Valdes is extremely underrated, which is almost a part of his style. He's got a great casting voice (he's one of the few guys who sounds like he might have done some vocal training, which EVERYONE who ever appears on TV or the radio should do), he always keeps the viewer informed of what's happening with good analysis without ever dominating the broadcast, and the fact he appears to speak near-fluent Korean is a cool bonus.
He's not a guy who will make you bust a gut laughing, or blow your mind with meta insight, or provide a crazy "hype" moment, but those are the things I like about him -- he just does his job extremely well and lets his partner go for style points. Him, along with Tasteless, are the two guys who I think you could put next to any other commentator and have the broadcast instantly work. (Although Tasteless obviously levels up when he's with Artosis.)
Valdes also one of my favorite casters. Just as you said. Seems really professional.
Valdes casts pretty cool and he owns some good intonation. He also brings the necessary mood to focus on the match and his laughing is always acceptable and never overreacted. Mostly important he understands the game and could recognize a few movements ahead of the pro-s as most of the good casters do. On the other side tho in GSL Code S especially both Tastosis leveled up a lot for the last two years. I remember many years ago when in some matches in Code S they were able to start some funny conversation and it shall continue through the whole match while something happens on the screen. Today they have found the good balance with the usual casting. And have to admit that the strategy analysis they make today are really the best in all SC/SC3 scene which amazes me. And yes, as some guy said before me Tasteless really levels up while casting with Artosis. This is one of the reasons perhaps why Rapid looks not so comfortable whyle he was casting with anyone of Tastosis duo. Probably he needs another caster with whom he could eventually assemble a good balanced team. Laughing and humour are essential. But overreacting could kill the initial reason why we observe RTS games.
This surprises me, I think Valdes is one of the worst casters out there, since he never reflects the situation of the game and more or less only describes what we can see and what he sees. I expect from a caster to go more into depth of the situation and elaborate on what certain situations mean for the game. Valdes never does this, his commentary is very one dimensional.
When you take Artosis for example, he elaborates on roles of units and special situations. He also speaks about how openings pan out on different maps and how playstyles of different players collide. One of the very best WCS Casters is Pig for the same reason I mentioned before.
On April 23 2018 12:44 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I love Rotti too, but sometimes he looks so stoned on camera. I'm not accusing him, and I think its because of his natural look.
He has this tired eyes look, akin to a stoner.
haha this isn't a bad thing D:
I have fond memories when videogames were about basement kids doing what they love, before all that fuzz with shirts suits and sponsors, it's good that people stay a bit different when possible
The Tastosis cast in this day's GSL - Maru vs Rogue and Classic vs ByuN - was not quite as usual. It seems as if Tasteless is trying a slightly different style. I like it!
Usually in the middle of a non-descript GSL season Tastosis' casting slips a bit. By that I mean they go from being a 10/10 casting duo to something like a 9.25/10. Not so this season from the games I've watched. Its BlizzCon level, 10/10 casting this season.
On June 06 2018 00:00 RAPiDCasting wrote: I hope everyone enjoyed WCS Austin! It was my first WCS event and I'd love to hear any thoughts or feedback.
You are easily the second best caster (alongside with rotti) after tastosis. Really appreciate your passion and understanding of the game without that worthless egocentric-emo-hype stuff. Have been following you since your first appearance in SPL and i hope you are here to stay. Interview with Nice Username was fun as well -)
On June 14 2018 15:29 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Usually in the middle of a non-descript GSL season Tastosis' casting slips a bit. By that I mean they go from being a 10/10 casting duo to something like a 9.25/10. Not so this season from the games I've watched. Its BlizzCon level, 10/10 casting this season.
Hi, thank you tl for thinking this is a potentially valuable opportunity, casters are all unique individuals and it seems a good idea to see where we (tl) stand (tl people saying what they like dislike and this in a civil fashion).
i read the thread and i can't believe it? [add illegal surprise twit ch emote here]
So many subjects not mentioned?
Things like: "casters have to cast GOOD games and BAD games" "casters push the envelop" (when they arguably introduce new things to the showcasing concept)
or "casters in chat and/or on stream"
or going "borderline" as many times as possible (standing up to the production imposed "limits")
or "casters in chill HSCup and on Blizzcon studio.. does it have to be this way?"
Me many dissapoints.. you get a good thread and read it and then :/ you feel old.
Ok so i'll bite at answering like a teen age fan grill would
catz and geoff were not the only ones to mention / nail it but not many did apparently.. PASSION is what i want. What i feel we all want, genuine passion for the moment / game they are casting.
Passion, getting giddy from watching/listening to the stream is what i want/like, what makes me choose which stream i listen/watch.
tasteless is sc for foreigners, he could come naked covered in ketchup singing baudelaire, we would be fine with it.
artosis is your sc uncle, the one you like but wouldn't want to sleep with (sleeping not having s x with .. as opposed to sleeping with the aforementioned plott)
and that passion is why i must note that i regret to not see day9 on sc2 more than once a year...
incontrol is the "lawyer" of the casters and as he is an ex debate gamer it sounds just right , he has tried to be funny (making jokes) in a silly situation (casting is grown ups casting a game where pew pew lasers happen, and people say "x" often and "y" happens instead etc and you get "breaks" to fill in at a moment's notice or tech issues etc) for years more and more (with varying degrees of success but trying consistently) and consequently (like tasteless before him) has been pushing what the "blizz hard boundaries" have been more than anyone else for sure. Again, you say it yourself geoff, "not all the jokes will land" and i appreciate that honesty .. i would just add "but you have to make these to get the good jokes out of the other casters, and out of yourself...
zg is quite the prize and yes i think we should celebrate that she s a grill <3
catz is awesome when he casts for big tourneys, so sad he hates me / permed me on twit ch chat :/
People watching invest in people on screen / people talking over the visual of gamers duking it out AND what the observers do (yes i think observers are UNDER appreciated and UNDER valued etc sad really [insert illegal rage twit ch emote here please thank you] really really sad) even sadder when you consider that casters often are the mechanic you are watching overall be good or bad or somewhere in between (and so much of that matters ) ...
But back to what isn't sad!
people invest in their "link" to the game, the viewer will root for a caster and that is a double edge sword.
rotti or nate jumping in chat is very nice i feel. they are what we call "sc in your veins" kind of guys where/when even if you don't like this or that about them, they are awesome pro at it and really that is so enjoyable that it is a pity they still have time to stream ... they should be on weekly and stable, working sc2 to 100 k viewership .... ?.. anyway...
i really think kids fixation on rotti's looking "high" is just ridiculous... he's sensitive to the "production" lights and that gets to his eyes is all, inbefore rotti wears glasses just for that
i should mention others that can be great (maynarde tod ravi wardi etc) but i'll stop with this fan grill type of posting to finish on the best casters:
HOME STORY CUP <3 hype <3 i can't wait to see gamers casting on the next hsc <3
On the whole tldr i would say we are lucky with what we have.
And no i won't be negative on any casters i hate, not sure it helps to even mention it...?
i agree with everything u said fluidrone except one thing: tasteless is not sc, artosis is. tasteless is the funny uncle. he should make millions as the best comedian in the world. i love production problems when hes on
the reason i actually came on however was because i just watch the latest GSL and i like to thank the great casting duo. noRegret with the in-depth insight that no caster can top since he is more than that. and Rapid impressed me the most. i must admit that i hated him at first with the long winded sentences but hes gotten better at using those to a point where his language skills are really entertaining. but thats because thats not all he is now. his years in korea and in all the different esports really show
I loved the WCS Valencia casters except that one of the hype casters should be replaced with a more knowledgable caster like Pig, eg: when there is a tasteless, we dont need a geoff to also say generic or funny stuff
I guess these are mostly production questions, but I do think casters have somewhat of a say in it so it should still be the proper forum for it and maybe they can shed light on some of it.
I still wonder why they don't give at least one of the casters a pc that is not streamed, just so the casters can look around to check stuff, instead of asking the observer to do it. It could make the casters appear more knowledgeable and it would just seem more professional in general. It seems a lot of casting these days is just pointing out what we see on the screen, which is fine, but that shoe horns most of them into the hype role, since whatever else can they do? Give casters better opportunity to delve deep into a single players build and share that insight by giving them the opportunity to see more than what we see.
Whatever happened to keyboard hands, first person view and player camera reactions. We are so lucky that our competitors are actually incredibly impressive in their craft and are wearing their heart on their sleeve by the sheer intensity of this game. When ShowTiMe inevitably scouts the cannon rush from Has on Red Shift, why is it that we don't get player reaction, it would've been sooo good. To be fair we never really mastered player reaction cameras, but it seems no attempt is even made. Also production seems to be in love with slowmotion, it's okay to use, but never, I repeat NEVER slow down a video of a player going ham on his keyboard.
When we have a live crowd I would like to see more interaction between the broadcasters and them, really I don't have much to add on this, except that I think there could be more of it. Hosts that can really rile up the crowd are very appreciated by me. The panel host is in a weird spot I think in sc2, some of the best hosting I've seen in this scene comes from people who have limited knowledge of the game and so they ask more genuine questions, which are questions that the viewers might also share, so this is really good. Nathanias is good, but to be honest he would be good in any role, I think he might be too knowledgeable to not have as a caster and also he's one of these guys who can really hype up a cast, so I still think we've not found the perfect role distribution yet. Personally I would love to have Incontrol as the host, since first of all that would mean more of him, which is good but also I think he has a very natural affinity for it, but I'm not here to decide on the matter, I just think there's still experimentation to be done.
I guess I should add that Tastosis is not my prefered caster lineup for the finals, which I guess is an unpopular opinion, I do think they're by far the best duo and individually they're amazing as well, but the casts themselves are not at the highest standard for me at least. This is ONLY for the finals btw, it isn't exactly fake hype, but it feels like fake hype. It comes out as too Radio-broadcasty. It's hard to explain, but it's like every single sentence has to be exciting or something so they just ping pong back and forth with one liners. Personally I think the best duo for a finals would be an all out warfare hype cast with Maynarde and Tasteless, not that they go together incredibly well, but for the finals the hype would be warranted.
Since Rapid keeps redirecting criticism to this thread (rightfully so!), I'll try to explain at least in part what is the problem with him and Noregret casting together as it is.
Disclaimer: this is entirely a personal analysis, based on no hard data on how an eSports casting duo *should* behave, so anyone is welcome to correct me.
It comes to the basic purpose of casting a game. A viewer usually listens for a) analysis b) entertainment, in different proportions based on personal preference. Some people keep listening to the Korean casting despite understanding little to none of the words, just because of the hype. Entertainment is not to be underestimated, even without understanding puns and jokes.
I, for one, prefer a balanced cast. A very knowledgeable caster with a monotonous voice that delivers dry analysis on the game and fills the gaps with statistical data on the players can lose the viewer's attention. An overly hyped caster, on the other hand, might become distracting and irritating, drawing the focus away from the game itself. Usually, the interaction between two different personalities with different backgrounds can go a long way towards bringing some balance between analysis and entertainment. Quality humour is also a matter of personal preference to some degree, so I won't address that.
Rapid is the entertaining kind of caster that sometimes tends to lose track of the game because he's overhyped by a play. That can make him look incompetent sometimes. He actually has decent game knowledge and can provide fairly decent analysis for the casual viewer, when he's focused. He tends to get overboard with hype, missing stuff and crossing the line where more enthusiasm does no longer provide more entertainment. A natural cocaster would be a calmer guy, who keeps track and can draw Rapid back to analysis, and Noregret looks like that kind of guy to me. Maybe this is intentional, I cannot say, but theoretically they should click well. So far he tends to do that by asking questions, using his very limited knowledge and drawing SC2 parallels (serving a dual purpose by addressing the public that crossed over) as a pivot of sorts.
Here's the problem: he does not have the necessary knowledge even for that. He does not recognize very basic concepts , so he might let Rapid get excited over nothing or when there's something much more important happening. He asks questions that don't necessarily pull Rapid back on track, instead addressing very, very basic ideas such as science vessels being a good unit against zerg or ranged goons outranging a bunker with marines in it. Instead of keeping flow, these moments disrupt it even more. Simply put, he does not know what to ask.
I am sure both guys are trying to give us as much of a good time as they can. But Noregret has not been improving his BW knowledge, so he's forcing Rapid into watering down the cast whenever he's not extremely enthusiastic. I want to emphasize that for me these traits and casting styles are not inherently bad, but in this case they just don't click together as they should. Rapid should try to keep a little more attention to the bigger picture of the game instead of getting lost in hyping over an engagement (which could be very cool and I actually like it, it just needs fine-tuning). Noregret has to catch up on his game knowledge - not trivia, that duo does not need too much of that, Rapid can easily fill in the lulls with hilarious stuff - so he knows actually what to ask. He's a smart guy and he's asking logical questions, with a more focused cocaster he would bring a great bit of fundamental analysis, but then entertainment might suffer. With Rapid he needs to be more knowledgeable about the basics, that's it.
With that said, this is by no means intended to be sh.t throwing. Just a basic assessment by me as a pretty casual viewer. Any criticism is more than welcome.
This isn't for a caster, but for duo's getting assigned. The amount of time 2 analysts or 2 color commentators are being assigned to games together at premier events is making a lot of them unwatchable. Having 2 people yelling over each other is not fun to listen to, nor is having two people talk about the intricacies of the game with essentially no excitement. You'd think organizers would no better by now
On August 04 2018 16:55 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: This isn't for a caster, but for duo's getting assigned. The amount of time 2 analysts or 2 color commentators are being assigned to games together at premier events is making a lot of them unwatchable. Having 2 people yelling over each other is not fun to listen to, nor is having two people talk about the intricacies of the game with essentially no excitement. You'd think organizers would no better by now
I agree, but there's more to casting than the organizers putting the right personalities together. You gotta work with what you have (offline tournaments in Korea need the casters to be in Korea) and there's the matter of personal responsibility and professional pride. If you get picked to do a job, you don't get picked to do a lousy job, so you must track your deficiencies and work on them. And that's my point - I believe most of the traits these two guys have can be used for a good cast, they need to work on the problems they have as a duo. I doubt Rapid would want to solocast again, it's exhausting to talk calmly for three hours straight, and he's not calm. In theory Noregret is a fine partner personality-wise, but he needs to improve on his knowledge to be a complement in practice. Right now they feel like a younger, hyped up guy with street smarts and his older brother who's leaving campus for the first time in 4 years, and they're discussing going to a party.
EDIT: I just realized this is the SC2 section. Rapid redirected us to this thread from a SC:R tournament thread, so I assumed this is about general caster criticism. Any moderator who thinks these posts don't belong here, please tell me if I can move them somewhere. Apologies for the inconvenience.
On August 04 2018 17:27 Noonius wrote: when Tastosis is booked for the event, you know who's gonna be casting the final, and it's getting old.
at GSL v. The World.... Tastosis did game 3 onwards. so part of the finals were not casted by them.
the casting quality of the GSL v. The World event was very good. i'd say 8.5/10. Tastosis was the best of all the various 2 man combos. Its good they did game 3 onwards of the finals.
Tastosis are so relaxed. Their excitement is almost always congruent//commensurate with the action and the moment. When they occasionally flub something they don't get flustered...they deal with it quickly and move forward.
They never try to put themselves over. Their concern is always putting the players over and putting the event over. This comes from being grizzled veterans comfortable with their positions and careers as commentators.
These guys are the Howard Cosell of RTS casters at this point.
well heres my take but mute has been a must when watching over the last 2 years
rotterdam is a boss. When the others on the panel arent trying to bring him down to their level and he has to fight out of the corner to get out of the goof, hes just the best caster sc have.
for me all of the casters have their place but the ones i really mute for are incontrol, tod, nathanias, maynarde and artosis. ye, i said it. the simple reason being it all seems a little bit of a meme when they cast. stupid facepalm comments are said and they never seem to let it go. there was a section in a recent tournament where there was a term being banded around, one i hadnt heard of either and they just went on about that for 4 hrs. Its like these ones more than the others try to tongue in cheek every single sentence. incontrol and artosis for me are just way to goof and that stupid woooooohhhh artosis does has me press mute immediately. Also with these guys their filler is how uch they can plum into how much the next game is going to be epic when we know full well its going to be the exact same game of sc weve seen a million times in the hope we get some differing execution and builds. Rotterdam avoids this and talks about stats and meetups, its pure class really.
All the above being said, the casters arent that bad but i just wish the jokes were a bit more quick snappy and more intelligent rather than getting into that ugh cycle they always seem to do.
I think feardragon could improve the clarity of his words during hype moments if he slows down just a bit and enunciates more. Maybe it's just me, but I find when he gets excited he starts to speak too fast and the words slur together a bit, making it harder to follow what he's saying.
Looking back at really old VODs, Tasetosis have done a lot of work on improving their speech over the years, they don't even sound like the same people anymore.
On a side note, I enjoy the Tasteless and Maynard's combo and the Artosis and Rotti combos.
Just finished watching the GSL vs the World.. I really enjoyed all the casting, awesome job! The hype was real, and the technical detail also very high!
I post here to mention that I started to really like Maynard casting: it's so nice to hear his excitement when commentating an awesome play, it feels really genuine!
On August 06 2018 23:55 iNcontroL wrote: this thread fucking blows lol
nah, its not that bad. there may be the odd "hot take" in here but that's about it.
On August 07 2018 00:06 Zzoram wrote: I think feardragon could improve the clarity of his words during hype moments if he slows down just a bit and enunciates more.
On August 07 2018 02:21 iNcontroL wrote: nah, I think it blows. You aren't a caster I'm not sure you'd understand. I'm gonna guess you will talk like you do though.
I think this is intended to be a containment thread for the most part. So when some incessant caster criticism pops up elsewhere, the poster will be directed to make their comments here rather than shitting up some other thread.
God forbid people made comments on the work of people to whom they are basically customers! Honestly I like inControl's stage presence, he continues to be funny even after so many years and is one of the reasons why I will always tune to HSC, but I really don't like his attitude towards his audience. You know, the people he is supposed to entertain. Yes, I know it was just two snark remarks, yet it is aggravating.
This thread doesn't blow. If you don't like it, don't go to it.
On August 07 2018 02:55 opisska wrote: God forbid people made comments on the work of people to whom they are basically customers! Honestly I like inControl's stage presence, he continues to be funny even after so many years and is one of the reasons why I will always tune to HSC, but I really don't like his attitude towards his audience. You know, the people he is supposed to entertain. Yes, I know it was just two snark remarks, yet it is aggravating.
This thread doesn't blow. If you don't like it, don't go to it.
yeah man! My audience in this thread? Sorry.. doesn't work like that.
The people in this thread saying they "mute me" etc.. not really my audience by their own admission. Anyways, you are right. I shouldn't come here.. TL has been a bad place for anyone in my position to post for awhile. yet I keep coming back to talk to my actual audience.. doesn't mean if I see dumb threads I won't call it like it is. This thread has very little constructive criticism and more "i like X caster because unlike Y caster they do [random thing this person likes]" over and over. It's stupid
On August 07 2018 02:55 opisska wrote: God forbid people made comments on the work of people to whom they are basically customers! Honestly I like inControl's stage presence, he continues to be funny even after so many years and is one of the reasons why I will always tune to HSC, but I really don't like his attitude towards his audience. You know, the people he is supposed to entertain. Yes, I know it was just two snark remarks, yet it is aggravating.
This thread doesn't blow. If you don't like it, don't go to it.
yeah man! My audience in this thread? Sorry.. doesn't work like that.
The people in this thread saying they "mute me" etc.. not really my audience by their own admission. Anyways, you are right. I shouldn't come here.. TL has been a bad place for anyone in my position to post for awhile. yet I keep coming back to talk to my actual audience.. doesn't mean if I see dumb threads I won't call it like it is. This thread has very little constructive criticism and more "i like X caster because unlike Y caster they do [random thing this person likes]" over and over. It's stupid
Honestly I see how it is a little sad, you probably grew up with this forum as a place to hang out with friends and then you became a sort of public person in this little courtyard and the atmosphere here went to shit for you. But I think it doesn't have to be that bad, just don't go looking for haters if they make you unhappy. Even in this thread and all the other places related to you work, there are many appreciative posts.
But this was kinda TL's choice, it has become "mainstream" and it has specifically worked on trying to be the net's central hub for several games. We "outsiders" wouldn't have come here if we didn't feel invited, you can't complain that you hear the opinions of a random joe viewer when people running this place actively encouraged said joe to come here. So I think you making posts against that is .... well in your words, dumb.
i think debating the merits of this thread belongs in website feedback. not here. incidentally, my favourite "outsiders" are scott hall and kevin nash.
any how, i hope ZombieGrub and Rotterdam get expanded roles at Blizzcon. They are killing it this year.
On August 07 2018 02:21 iNcontroL wrote: nah, I think it blows. You aren't a caster I'm not sure you'd understand. I'm gonna guess you will talk like you do though.
If I wanted to cringe I would watch The Office. The chemistry between Rapid and No Regrets is abysmal. From the little I have watched No Regret I have to respect him much more. He isn't afraid to correct Rapid (who should have the superior game knowledge) and actually follows the game and tries to provide insightful commentary instead of just spouting enthusiastic nonsense to fill the void. I personally believe a lot of the awkward exchanges boils down to a lack of social awareness by Rapid. Dual commentators are meant to compliment each other's style and bounce off each other. In this case one just yells "ANNNND ALLL THE DRAGOONS WILLL. GO. DOWN!" while the other fights for a chance to speak.
On August 07 2018 02:55 opisska wrote: God forbid people made comments on the work of people to whom they are basically customers! Honestly I like inControl's stage presence, he continues to be funny even after so many years and is one of the reasons why I will always tune to HSC, but I really don't like his attitude towards his audience. You know, the people he is supposed to entertain. Yes, I know it was just two snark remarks, yet it is aggravating.
This thread doesn't blow. If you don't like it, don't go to it.
yeah man! My audience in this thread? Sorry.. doesn't work like that.
The people in this thread saying they "mute me" etc.. not really my audience by their own admission. Anyways, you are right. I shouldn't come here.. TL has been a bad place for anyone in my position to post for awhile. yet I keep coming back to talk to my actual audience.. doesn't mean if I see dumb threads I won't call it like it is. This thread has very little constructive criticism and more "i like X caster because unlike Y caster they do [random thing this person likes]" over and over. It's stupid
You really need to get over yourself for five seconds there buddy.
On August 07 2018 23:54 207aicila wrote: Nothing like a week old account named after a reference to a show that hasn't been good in 15 years to take that pesky iNcontroL fellow down a peg.
Man all these casters are such weak sauce these days. It feels like watching uber uptite news anchors. Where's the destiny cloud fist screaming huskystarcraft casters?
Not to speak for Geoff but I do find it funny when people will berate casters in this thread and do much worse than name calling in their "criticism" but if the caster responds with anything except "thank you for that feedback, your input is most valuable", there seems to be some strong reaction from people that it's not ok for them to do that. Not even anything that extreme, just stating their opinion that someone is behaving like an ass or that a thread is unproductive. A lot of people love to dish out their opinion that they don't like someone and get extremely offended when similar criticism is levied at them or their opinion.
Sure there's not a massive wall of text providing reasoning why they believe it but...a lot of the posts in this thread don't have a lot of specific or reasonable reasoning why they think ___ commentator sucks. You're free to state your opinion within the guidelines set by Team Liquid mods but please don't be shocked that casters don't actually have to listen, consider or even respect your feedback. They're also allowed to reply to it how they want within the guidelines set by Team Liquid.
The double standard regarding this has been bugging me lately so I just wanted to get that out there.
On August 08 2018 04:42 feardragon wrote: Not to speak for Geoff but I do find it funny when people will berate casters in this thread and do much worse than name calling in their "criticism" but if the caster responds with anything except "thank you for that feedback, your input is most valuable", there seems to be some strong reaction from people that it's not ok for them to do that. Not even anything that extreme, just stating their opinion that someone is behaving like an ass or that a thread is unproductive. A lot of people love to dish out their opinion that they don't like someone and get extremely offended when similar criticism is levied at them or their opinion.
Sure there's not a massive wall of text providing reasoning why they believe it but...a lot of the posts in this thread don't have a lot of specific or reasonable reasoning why they think ___ commentator sucks. You're free to state your opinion within the guidelines set by Team Liquid mods but please don't be shocked that casters don't actually have to listen, consider or even respect your feedback. They're also allowed to reply to it how they want within the guidelines set by Team Liquid.
The double standard regarding this has been bugging me lately so I just wanted to get that out there.
What are some examples in this thread for that double standard you're talking about? Without them I'm not sure what you mean exactly, since it's obvious that random forum posters making a bad post are gonna get less of a reaction than popular community figures (and that lack of reaction is by no means endorsement), so I don't think that is your point? I've not been following the thread too closely, so I might be missing some, but the only case where I felt a caster got an unwarranted reaction was when Wax "called out" Incontrol on what I thought was a perfectly fine response (and I agree with his point that the comparison was bad), but then Incontrol went with a kneejerk response at Wax so it became a mess that nobody wanted to get involved in.
Let me preface this: I did not watch much of the tournament, Harstem won the particular match and took the jab well, so all is good and no harm done and maybe the whole Tourney wasn't very serious and, as the young folk like to say, a "clown-fiesta".
Just in case it was not, I wanted to say, I was shocked when Wardi used his Referee position during the Map-testing tourney to add salt to the wound when Harstem flew his pheonix into the neutral missile turrets and Wardi in that moment, in the in-game chat wrote to all "Play of the tournament" and "GG". My dainty soul would have been flabbergasted in Harstem's position. It probably was nothing and Wardi probably would never do this in a more serious setting, maybe he send it to all on accident. Still shocked I tell you, I was.
He probably was also not nagging harstem, but pointing out the serendipitous flow of actions. I just would mind if Refs starting chatting in all game chat while I am playing a tournament.
Here is my harsh and brutally honest feedback geared towards the majority of casters.
The "passion" that you are portraying while casting is not believable. It does not feel genuine. It seems phony and manufactured. Whenever I listen to an official esports cast from LoL, CS:GO, overwatch etc, I can sense the passion. I can sense they actually care. This isn't the case with sc2 casters.
I see a group of guys "trying" to be passionate in an attempt to sell whatever idea or narrative they are currently trying to push. I don't see passion. It's just not believable.
Also, Enough of the shitty jokes already. You don't see this in major sports broadcasting. They limit it to good jokes only(mainly a 1 line quip). Sorry guys, but your fart, poop and "fuck" jokes do nothing but make you look childish and taint the broadcast. Just stop it already.
I look at/listen to the casting crew for LoL and Overwatch and I see professionalism & passion. It feels like i'm being delivered ESPN content. It feels real, It feel genuine.
When I listen to the official sc2 broadcasts, It feels like the whole shindig is ran by rookies who care more about collecting a paycheck or kids who were partying too hard the night before doing just enough to "pass" for the day. It's not quite as bad as the nasl was, but it is definitely mediocre.
I do have to give credit to 2 of the newer casters. Maynard and feardragon. Their energy is unmatched. It feels authentic. It feels like they care. I don't get this with tasteless or incontrol.
Also, props to basetrade, He actually gives a shit(you can tell).
Another thing. Dress professional. Your crooked and improperly tied Tie looks bad. Your unbuttoned shirt exposing your tacomeat is bad. This isn't playgirl gentlemen. Your collared dresshirt with the curled up collar that isn't ironed looks like shit. Get some class. Most of you are in your 30s, act like it. Incase some of you didn't have a father or mother to teach you these things, maybe go on youtube for some videos and educate yourself. Clean up and look good. Want people to take it serious? Look serious and portray REAL passion. Enough of the faking.
My 2 sense in under 2 minutes. Utterly brutal and honest. Blizzard really needs to properly manage the events so that fans aren't delivered mediocre content. I'd recommend they start rotating out casters that have lost their passion and find new ones.
On August 08 2018 21:22 ReachTheSky wrote: Here is my harsh and brutally honest feedback geared towards the majority of casters.
The "passion" that you are portraying while casting is not believable. It does not feel genuine. It seems phony and manufactured. Whenever I listen to an official esports cast from LoL, CS:GO, overwatch etc, I can sense the passion. I can sense they actually care. This isn't the case with sc2 casters.
I see a group of guys "trying" to be passionate in an attempt to sell whatever idea or narrative they are currently trying to push. I don't see passion. It's just not believable.
Also, Enough of the shitty jokes already. You don't see this in major sports broadcasting. They limit it to good jokes only(mainly a 1 line quip). Sorry guys, but your fart, poop and "fuck" jokes do nothing but make you look childish and taint the broadcast. Just stop it already.
I look at/listen to the casting crew for LoL and Overwatch and I see professionalism & passion. It feels like i'm being delivered ESPN content. It feels real, It feel genuine.
When I listen to the official sc2 broadcasts, It feels like the whole shindig is ran by rookies who care more about collecting a paycheck or kids who were partying too hard the night before doing just enough to "pass" for the day. It's not quite as bad as the nasl was, but it is definitely mediocre.
I do have to give credit to 2 of the newer casters. Maynard and feardragon. Their energy is unmatched. It feels authentic. It feels like they care. I don't get this with tasteless or incontrol.
Also, props to basetrade, He actually gives a shit(you can tell).
Another thing. Dress professional. Your crooked and improperly tied Tie looks bad. Your unbuttoned shirt exposing your tacomeat is bad. This isn't playgirl gentlemen. Your collared dresshirt with the curled up collar that isn't ironed looks like shit. Get some class. Most of you are in your 30s, act like it. Incase some of you didn't have a father or mother to teach you these things, maybe go on youtube for some videos and educate yourself. Clean up and look good. Want people to take it serious? Look serious and portray REAL passion. Enough of the faking.
My 2 sense in under 2 minutes. Utterly brutal and honest. Blizzard really needs to properly manage the events so that fans aren't delivered mediocre content. I'd recommend they start rotating out casters that have lost their passion and find new ones.
I don't know where to start with how wrong most of this is
On August 07 2018 02:21 iNcontroL wrote: nah, I think it blows. You aren't a caster I'm not sure you'd understand. I'm gonna guess you will talk like you do though.
no dad, you don't understand.... just like an argument with my daughter.
despite the fact, that you don't need to work in a profession to give feedback (yes we non-casters get feedback as well in our totally different lives), there are surely no jobs that involve speaking and presenting themselves in front of an audience.
i get it when feardragon and noregret and the such behave like that, they are still somewhat young. but you are a grown ass adult, you should be able to filter out the nonsense and if people make the effort to state their opinion in a somewhat constructive way to at least think about it.
i mean i myself don't agree with "the best article" at all points, but if a caster reads through it and not even a little bit identifies himself in that, then self-reflection is apparently a different thing for me.
i don't get it, one the one hand you fight for casters/esports to be taken seriously and get proper payment for their work, on the other you people behave like high schoolers when you are faced with critique.
On August 08 2018 04:42 feardragon wrote: Not to speak for Geoff but I do find it funny when people will berate casters in this thread and do much worse than name calling in their "criticism" but if the caster responds with anything except "thank you for that feedback, your input is most valuable", there seems to be some strong reaction from people that it's not ok for them to do that. Not even anything that extreme, just stating their opinion that someone is behaving like an ass or that a thread is unproductive. A lot of people love to dish out their opinion that they don't like someone and get extremely offended when similar criticism is levied at them or their opinion.
Sure there's not a massive wall of text providing reasoning why they believe it but...a lot of the posts in this thread don't have a lot of specific or reasonable reasoning why they think ___ commentator sucks. You're free to state your opinion within the guidelines set by Team Liquid mods but please don't be shocked that casters don't actually have to listen, consider or even respect your feedback. They're also allowed to reply to it how they want within the guidelines set by Team Liquid.
The double standard regarding this has been bugging me lately so I just wanted to get that out there.
I can respect that a lot of what can be read in this thread, in streams and Twitch chats can be offensive and at times downright hurtful. I also appreciate that casting in and of itself isn't an easy job to do, particularly when you have to do it for a great many hours on end with all the other meta elements in place (flagging energy, jet lag to name a few).
However, I'd also like to say that there is also a portion of the StarCraft and TL community that do want to help individuals such as casters to give them support and give appreciation for their hard work. The amount of collaboration that has taken place in the community clearly proves this. So if a member of the forum makes a post that is challenging how a caster approaches how he contributes to the stream or event, they might be genuinely trying to offer feedback on how they think that effort could be improved - even if it's subjective to that poster and might not strike a chord. Feel free to take it on board, read it chuckle and forget about it, or avoid such things entirely.
However, down-right inflammatory remarks in response to seemingly benign posts should not be condoned under any circumstances.
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Why can't you ever just say "that's an interesting perspective, maybe I'll think about that?"
That guy even posted in a constructive, polite way.
I understand that you get a lot of feedback that's unhelpful, and a lot of feedback that's just plain negative and insulting. But if the only tone you can accept feedback from is 'utterly deferential and apologizing to be critical at all'—I don't know, that's just such a bad place to start from.
I mean, maybe your experience over the last X years has made it so you have to take all feedback that way. But man, it kinda sucks.
I think you'd be one of the absolute last people I'd ever even consider taking advice from in regards to "can you say things non douchey"
Lol wax You are straight up an asshole and I think you know it. Lets pretend here for a second you aren't throwing rocks in a glass house and just chill your tits lol
Sadly, the above isn't an isolated case and said conduct does iNcontroL a dis-service.
OP: I managed to catch the finals of GSL vs the World and would like to give props to Maynarde, Rotterdam and Tastosis for some great casting. I couldn't do much work whilst listening in because the experience was so engrossing and the hype for the final was just electric.
On August 08 2018 20:46 JWD[9] wrote: Let me preface this: I did not watch much of the tournament, Harstem won the particular match and took the jab well, so all is good and no harm done and maybe the whole Tourney wasn't very serious and, as the young folk like to say, a "clown-fiesta".
Just in case it was not, I wanted to say, I was shocked when Wardi used his Referee position during the Map-testing tourney to add salt to the wound when Harstem flew his pheonix into the neutral missile turrets and Wardi in that moment, in the in-game chat wrote to all "Play of the tournament" and "GG". My dainty soul would have been flabbergasted in Harstem's position. It probably was nothing and Wardi probably would never do this in a more serious setting, maybe he send it to all on accident. Still shocked I tell you, I was.
He probably was also not nagging harstem, but pointing out the serendipitous flow of actions. I just would mind if Refs starting chatting in all game chat while I am playing a tournament.
I'm good friends with Harstem and we were already memeing about the turrets a lot. Also there was a separate prize pool for "play of the tournament using the maps", so the "Play of the tournament" was a reference to that, which is what made it funny in general.
On August 07 2018 02:21 iNcontroL wrote: nah, I think it blows. You aren't a caster I'm not sure you'd understand. I'm gonna guess you will talk like you do though.
no dad, you don't understand.... just like an argument with my daughter.
despite the fact, that you don't need to work in a profession to give feedback (yes we non-casters get feedback as well in our totally different lives), there are surely no jobs that involve speaking and presenting themselves in front of an audience.
i get it when feardragon and noregret and the such behave like that, they are still somewhat young. but you are a grown ass adult, you should be able to filter out the nonsense and if people make the effort to state their opinion in a somewhat constructive way to at least think about it.
i mean i myself don't agree with "the best article" at all points, but if a caster reads through it and not even a little bit identifies himself in that, then self-reflection is apparently a different thing for me.
i don't get it, one the one hand you fight for casters/esports to be taken seriously and get proper payment for their work, on the other you people behave like high schoolers when you are faced with critique.
hey dad,
Wasn't talking about the article you are referencing. In fact we had a really nice Pylon Show episode on that where I basically defended the article and talked about the importance of criticism. Here, in this thread, which I said "sucks" or "blows" I stand by what I said. And despite being a "grown ass adult" I can still say stuff like "this thread fucking sucks" while maintaining my age and profession, imagine that?
This is a shitty thread where people are saying things from a variety of amazing little stuff like "they are acting like bad announcers" or "I mute them all" so I called it out. You don't like that? Color me shocked! Hopefully next time you will at least grasp the topic before you patronize me old guy!
On August 08 2018 04:42 feardragon wrote: Not to speak for Geoff but I do find it funny when people will berate casters in this thread and do much worse than name calling in their "criticism" but if the caster responds with anything except "thank you for that feedback, your input is most valuable", there seems to be some strong reaction from people that it's not ok for them to do that. Not even anything that extreme, just stating their opinion that someone is behaving like an ass or that a thread is unproductive. A lot of people love to dish out their opinion that they don't like someone and get extremely offended when similar criticism is levied at them or their opinion.
Sure there's not a massive wall of text providing reasoning why they believe it but...a lot of the posts in this thread don't have a lot of specific or reasonable reasoning why they think ___ commentator sucks. You're free to state your opinion within the guidelines set by Team Liquid mods but please don't be shocked that casters don't actually have to listen, consider or even respect your feedback. They're also allowed to reply to it how they want within the guidelines set by Team Liquid.
The double standard regarding this has been bugging me lately so I just wanted to get that out there.
I can respect that a lot of what can be read in this thread, in streams and Twitch chats can be offensive and at times downright hurtful. I also appreciate that casting in and of itself isn't an easy job to do, particularly when you have to do it for a great many hours on end with all the other meta elements in place (flagging energy, jet lag to name a few).
However, I'd also like to say that there is also a portion of the StarCraft and TL community that do want to help individuals such as casters to give them support and give appreciation for their hard work. The amount of collaboration that has taken place in the community clearly proves this. So if a member of the forum makes a post that is challenging how a caster approaches how he contributes to the stream or event, they might be genuinely trying to offer feedback on how they think that effort could be improved - even if it's subjective to that poster and might not strike a chord. Feel free to take it on board, read it chuckle and forget about it, or avoid such things entirely.
However, down-right inflammatory remarks in response to seemingly benign posts should not be condoned under any circumstances.
On April 09 2018 05:38 Mahayana wrote: There is one thing I feel most casters could be doing better, and that is filler content, or rather the lack of it.
It is absolutely fine to not talk for a few seconds when nothing is happening. Instead I feel most casters are forcing themselves to provide commentary / filler content at all times. I feel good commentary should feel like a discussion that is informing the game. Yet I understand there's a limit to how much can be said when nothing is happening, but that's when I'd like to hear less obvious and less random filler content.
In a real conversation sometimes you pause to get your thoughts in order or process new infos and provide an adequate response, you don't randomly say stuff because you need the air to be filled with words.
Why are you comparing a broadcast to a "real conversation" ?
In a real conversation I might also do a LOT of things that would be bad on a broadcast.
I don't even disagree with what you're saying but the comparison is horrible. I think conversely the idea of "you don't have to fill all the time" is hilariously barbed. For you that might be nice but for a lot of other people it's the job of the commentator to always have something to say. I think this is less advice and more "hey guys here is my preferences why can't you all do this?"
Why can't you ever just say "that's an interesting perspective, maybe I'll think about that?"
That guy even posted in a constructive, polite way.
I understand that you get a lot of feedback that's unhelpful, and a lot of feedback that's just plain negative and insulting. But if the only tone you can accept feedback from is 'utterly deferential and apologizing to be critical at all'—I don't know, that's just such a bad place to start from.
I mean, maybe your experience over the last X years has made it so you have to take all feedback that way. But man, it kinda sucks.
I think you'd be one of the absolute last people I'd ever even consider taking advice from in regards to "can you say things non douchey"
Lol wax You are straight up an asshole and I think you know it. Lets pretend here for a second you aren't throwing rocks in a glass house and just chill your tits lol
Sadly, the above isn't an isolated case and said conduct does iNcontroL a dis-service.
OP: I managed to catch the finals of GSL vs the World and would like to give props to Maynarde, Rotterdam and Tastosis for some great casting. I couldn't do much work whilst listening in because the experience was so engrossing and the hype for the final was just electric.
Want to quote for me some constructive criticism? Would you like me to skip ahead and quote for you the douchey stuff said?
Wax and I have history..mostly he is a snarky asshole and I am a sensitive nancy that gets mad at his snark. You being a TL hero who is offended by our interaction is awesome though.. I will write about it in my leather bound journal tonight in candle light.
On August 07 2018 02:21 iNcontroL wrote: nah, I think it blows. You aren't a caster I'm not sure you'd understand. I'm gonna guess you will talk like you do though.
no dad, you don't understand.... just like an argument with my daughter.
despite the fact, that you don't need to work in a profession to give feedback (yes we non-casters get feedback as well in our totally different lives), there are surely no jobs that involve speaking and presenting themselves in front of an audience.
i get it when feardragon and noregret and the such behave like that, they are still somewhat young. but you are a grown ass adult, you should be able to filter out the nonsense and if people make the effort to state their opinion in a somewhat constructive way to at least think about it.
i mean i myself don't agree with "the best article" at all points, but if a caster reads through it and not even a little bit identifies himself in that, then self-reflection is apparently a different thing for me.
i don't get it, one the one hand you fight for casters/esports to be taken seriously and get proper payment for their work, on the other you people behave like high schoolers when you are faced with critique.
hey dad,
Wasn't talking about the article you are referencing. In fact we had a really nice Pylon Show episode on that where I basically defended the article and talked about the importance of criticism. Here, in this thread, which I said "sucks" or "blows" I stand by what I said. And despite being a "grown ass adult" I can still say stuff like "this thread fucking sucks" while maintaining my age and profession, imagine that?
This is a shitty thread where people are saying things from a variety of amazing little stuff like "they are acting like bad announcers" or "I mute them all" so I called it out. You don't like that? Color me shocked! Hopefully next time you will at least grasp the topic before you patronize me old guy!
yeah yeah,
no critique in this thread goes beyond stupid oneliners or insults. no real points or constructive criticism, sure thing if you say so
i watched the pylon episode, there wasn't much besides "thats just not true", and my oh so missed point was to concentrate on the good feedback and ignore the rest (like the rest of us do in this thing called life) but hey i know when someone i obviously on an other lvl with reasoning.
On August 07 2018 02:21 iNcontroL wrote: nah, I think it blows. You aren't a caster I'm not sure you'd understand. I'm gonna guess you will talk like you do though.
no dad, you don't understand.... just like an argument with my daughter.
despite the fact, that you don't need to work in a profession to give feedback (yes we non-casters get feedback as well in our totally different lives), there are surely no jobs that involve speaking and presenting themselves in front of an audience.
i get it when feardragon and noregret and the such behave like that, they are still somewhat young. but you are a grown ass adult, you should be able to filter out the nonsense and if people make the effort to state their opinion in a somewhat constructive way to at least think about it.
i mean i myself don't agree with "the best article" at all points, but if a caster reads through it and not even a little bit identifies himself in that, then self-reflection is apparently a different thing for me.
i don't get it, one the one hand you fight for casters/esports to be taken seriously and get proper payment for their work, on the other you people behave like high schoolers when you are faced with critique.
hey dad,
Wasn't talking about the article you are referencing. In fact we had a really nice Pylon Show episode on that where I basically defended the article and talked about the importance of criticism. Here, in this thread, which I said "sucks" or "blows" I stand by what I said. And despite being a "grown ass adult" I can still say stuff like "this thread fucking sucks" while maintaining my age and profession, imagine that?
This is a shitty thread where people are saying things from a variety of amazing little stuff like "they are acting like bad announcers" or "I mute them all" so I called it out. You don't like that? Color me shocked! Hopefully next time you will at least grasp the topic before you patronize me old guy!
The Pylon Show episode was very nice, and criticism was certainly discussed. However I'm not sure how much of it was taken to heart. Certainly not all criticism is valid, and much of it can be safely ignored. However Artosis in particular seemed to be really aggrieved that people would even consider criticizing him (rightly or wrongly) over overhype/lazy narrative stuff, considering the amount of jabs he took at the article during GSL vs the World. That's not the attitude of someone who's actually receptive to criticism.
On August 07 2018 02:21 iNcontroL wrote: nah, I think it blows. You aren't a caster I'm not sure you'd understand. I'm gonna guess you will talk like you do though.
no dad, you don't understand.... just like an argument with my daughter.
despite the fact, that you don't need to work in a profession to give feedback (yes we non-casters get feedback as well in our totally different lives), there are surely no jobs that involve speaking and presenting themselves in front of an audience.
i get it when feardragon and noregret and the such behave like that, they are still somewhat young. but you are a grown ass adult, you should be able to filter out the nonsense and if people make the effort to state their opinion in a somewhat constructive way to at least think about it.
i mean i myself don't agree with "the best article" at all points, but if a caster reads through it and not even a little bit identifies himself in that, then self-reflection is apparently a different thing for me.
i don't get it, one the one hand you fight for casters/esports to be taken seriously and get proper payment for their work, on the other you people behave like high schoolers when you are faced with critique.
hey dad,
Wasn't talking about the article you are referencing. In fact we had a really nice Pylon Show episode on that where I basically defended the article and talked about the importance of criticism. Here, in this thread, which I said "sucks" or "blows" I stand by what I said. And despite being a "grown ass adult" I can still say stuff like "this thread fucking sucks" while maintaining my age and profession, imagine that?
This is a shitty thread where people are saying things from a variety of amazing little stuff like "they are acting like bad announcers" or "I mute them all" so I called it out. You don't like that? Color me shocked! Hopefully next time you will at least grasp the topic before you patronize me old guy!
The Pylon Show episode was very nice, and criticism was certainly discussed. However I'm not sure how much of it was taken to heart. Certainly not all criticism is valid, and much of it can be safely ignored. However Artosis in particular seemed to be really aggrieved that people would even consider criticizing him (rightly or wrongly) over overhype/lazy narrative stuff, considering the amount of jabs he took at the article during GSL vs the World. That's not the attitude of someone who's actually receptive to criticism.
Though this thread does suck.
Yes, he was defensive. I can't speak fully for him obviously but he started by saying he was miffed that he was the only commentator named.. I think that him being defensive from that is fairly understandable. I don't think we should take from that that Dan is immune to criticism. Just my 2 cents.
On August 07 2018 02:21 iNcontroL wrote: nah, I think it blows. You aren't a caster I'm not sure you'd understand. I'm gonna guess you will talk like you do though.
no dad, you don't understand.... just like an argument with my daughter.
despite the fact, that you don't need to work in a profession to give feedback (yes we non-casters get feedback as well in our totally different lives), there are surely no jobs that involve speaking and presenting themselves in front of an audience.
i get it when feardragon and noregret and the such behave like that, they are still somewhat young. but you are a grown ass adult, you should be able to filter out the nonsense and if people make the effort to state their opinion in a somewhat constructive way to at least think about it.
i mean i myself don't agree with "the best article" at all points, but if a caster reads through it and not even a little bit identifies himself in that, then self-reflection is apparently a different thing for me.
i don't get it, one the one hand you fight for casters/esports to be taken seriously and get proper payment for their work, on the other you people behave like high schoolers when you are faced with critique.
hey dad,
Wasn't talking about the article you are referencing. In fact we had a really nice Pylon Show episode on that where I basically defended the article and talked about the importance of criticism. Here, in this thread, which I said "sucks" or "blows" I stand by what I said. And despite being a "grown ass adult" I can still say stuff like "this thread fucking sucks" while maintaining my age and profession, imagine that?
This is a shitty thread where people are saying things from a variety of amazing little stuff like "they are acting like bad announcers" or "I mute them all" so I called it out. You don't like that? Color me shocked! Hopefully next time you will at least grasp the topic before you patronize me old guy!
yeah yeah,
no critique in this thread goes beyond stupid oneliners or insults. no real points or constructive criticism, sure thing if you say so
i watched the pylon episode, there wasn't much besides "thats just not true", and my oh so missed point was to concentrate on the good feedback and ignore the rest (like the rest of us do in this thing called life) but hey i know when someone i obviously on an other lvl with reasoning.
so long and enjoy your bubble
Excellent. You sound like just the kinda guy I would take seriously in a discussion on feedback and how to handle it LOL.
Besides the one post before Incontrol's "this thread fucking blows" Most of this thread was pretty on topic and constructive with the occasional oddball rant. I feel like you, Incontrol are the one making this thread devisive by going around and throwing out blanket statements like that.
As much of a fan that I am of Geoff's casting, it seems like his interactions with the Forum have been unnecessarily abrasive and toxic.
On August 07 2018 02:21 iNcontroL wrote: nah, I think it blows. You aren't a caster I'm not sure you'd understand. I'm gonna guess you will talk like you do though.
no dad, you don't understand.... just like an argument with my daughter.
despite the fact, that you don't need to work in a profession to give feedback (yes we non-casters get feedback as well in our totally different lives), there are surely no jobs that involve speaking and presenting themselves in front of an audience.
i get it when feardragon and noregret and the such behave like that, they are still somewhat young. but you are a grown ass adult, you should be able to filter out the nonsense and if people make the effort to state their opinion in a somewhat constructive way to at least think about it.
i mean i myself don't agree with "the best article" at all points, but if a caster reads through it and not even a little bit identifies himself in that, then self-reflection is apparently a different thing for me.
i don't get it, one the one hand you fight for casters/esports to be taken seriously and get proper payment for their work, on the other you people behave like high schoolers when you are faced with critique.
hey dad,
Wasn't talking about the article you are referencing. In fact we had a really nice Pylon Show episode on that where I basically defended the article and talked about the importance of criticism. Here, in this thread, which I said "sucks" or "blows" I stand by what I said. And despite being a "grown ass adult" I can still say stuff like "this thread fucking sucks" while maintaining my age and profession, imagine that?
This is a shitty thread where people are saying things from a variety of amazing little stuff like "they are acting like bad announcers" or "I mute them all" so I called it out. You don't like that? Color me shocked! Hopefully next time you will at least grasp the topic before you patronize me old guy!
The Pylon Show episode was very nice, and criticism was certainly discussed. However I'm not sure how much of it was taken to heart. Certainly not all criticism is valid, and much of it can be safely ignored. However Artosis in particular seemed to be really aggrieved that people would even consider criticizing him (rightly or wrongly) over overhype/lazy narrative stuff, considering the amount of jabs he took at the article during GSL vs the World. That's not the attitude of someone who's actually receptive to criticism.
Though this thread does suck.
Yes, he was defensive. I can't speak fully for him obviously but he started by saying he was miffed that he was the only commentator named.. I think that him being defensive from that is fairly understandable. I don't think we should take from that that Dan is immune to criticism. Just my 2 cents.
Considering he apparently had read the article shortly before the episode I would think it to be understandable that he was still a bit emotional about it. Also I think that in the later parts of the topic you can already see his statements become more calm and reflective.
So yea my first reaction to Artosis' defensive stance was also a bit irritated but it wore off the more time went by.
On August 09 2018 06:05 starkiller123 wrote: ironic that incontrol is accusing someone of being a snarky asshole
Takes one to know one? You think I'm about to claim I'm not a snarky asshole? lol
Also.. your entire logic is invalid. Someone BEING something doesn't mean they can't say someone else is the same thing lol. In fact, they may be the best person to identify it. It'd be like you calling someone else an irrelevant forum rando and them being like "that's ironic coming from you!"
On August 09 2018 06:00 Gorgonoth wrote: Besides the one post before Incontrol's "this thread fucking blows" Most of this thread was pretty on topic and constructive with the occasional oddball rant. I feel like you, Incontrol are the one making this thread devisive by going around and throwing out blanket statements like that.
As much of a fan that I am of Geoff's casting, it seems like his interactions with the Forum have been unnecessarily abrasive and toxic.
Yes I'm abrasive and toxic in here with the people being abrasive and toxic. I don't feel bad about that.. no amount of the classic "I'm a fan BUT" is going to change that.
And no.. the thread wasn't mostly constructive before my post lol. My post was in after reading pages of dumb shit. If you think otherwise that's fine.. it's your opinion. Just like mine is that this thread fucking blows.
On August 09 2018 06:00 Gorgonoth wrote: Besides the one post before Incontrol's "this thread fucking blows" Most of this thread was pretty on topic and constructive with the occasional oddball rant. I feel like you, Incontrol are the one making this thread devisive by going around and throwing out blanket statements like that.
As much of a fan that I am of Geoff's casting, it seems like his interactions with the Forum have been unnecessarily abrasive and toxic.
Yes I'm abrasive and toxic in here with the people being abrasive and toxic. I don't feel bad about that.. no amount of the classic "I'm a fan BUT" is going to change that.
And no.. the thread wasn't mostly constructive before my post lol. My post was in after reading pages of dumb shit. If you think otherwise that's fine.. it's your opinion. Just like mine is that this thread fucking blows.
Sure I can see your point. I just think that you stir up things alot in various forums, then complain about how "toxic the Bw community is", when you've done/said some pretty inflamatory things. Maybe I am not seeing things fully, but its been bothering me for a while.
On August 09 2018 06:00 Gorgonoth wrote: Besides the one post before Incontrol's "this thread fucking blows" Most of this thread was pretty on topic and constructive with the occasional oddball rant. I feel like you, Incontrol are the one making this thread devisive by going around and throwing out blanket statements like that.
As much of a fan that I am of Geoff's casting, it seems like his interactions with the Forum have been unnecessarily abrasive and toxic.
Yes I'm abrasive and toxic in here with the people being abrasive and toxic. I don't feel bad about that.. no amount of the classic "I'm a fan BUT" is going to change that.
And no.. the thread wasn't mostly constructive before my post lol. My post was in after reading pages of dumb shit. If you think otherwise that's fine.. it's your opinion. Just like mine is that this thread fucking blows.
Sure I can see your point. I just think that you stir up things alot in various forums, then complain about how "toxic the Bw community is", when you've done/said some pretty inflamatory things. Maybe I am not seeing things fully, but its been bothering me for a while.
Check my posting history mate. I've posted in here as a result and response to a bunch of dumb comments..I'm not at all calling out the people actually using this thread correctly.
You have a chip on your shoulder because 5 months ago I said the BW community on TL is mostly toxic.. which it is. Ok, just don't let it keep you up at night. I don't post on here about BW except 2 times a year or so. I'm sorry if it wounded you though.
On August 09 2018 06:00 Gorgonoth wrote: Besides the one post before Incontrol's "this thread fucking blows" Most of this thread was pretty on topic and constructive with the occasional oddball rant. I feel like you, Incontrol are the one making this thread devisive by going around and throwing out blanket statements like that.
As much of a fan that I am of Geoff's casting, it seems like his interactions with the Forum have been unnecessarily abrasive and toxic.
Yes I'm abrasive and toxic in here with the people being abrasive and toxic. I don't feel bad about that.. no amount of the classic "I'm a fan BUT" is going to change that.
And no.. the thread wasn't mostly constructive before my post lol. My post was in after reading pages of dumb shit. If you think otherwise that's fine.. it's your opinion. Just like mine is that this thread fucking blows.
Sure I can see your point. I just think that you stir up things alot in various forums, then complain about how "toxic the Bw community is", when you've done/said some pretty inflamatory things. Maybe I am not seeing things fully, but its been bothering me for a while.
Check my posting history mate. I've posted in here as a result and response to a bunch of dumb comments..I'm not at all calling out the people actually using this thread correctly.
You have a chip on your shoulder because a number of months ago I said the BW community on TL is toxic.. which it is. Ok, just don't let it keep you up at night. I don't post on here about BW except 3 times a year or so. I'm sorry if it wounded you though.
I am not denying or agreeing that the community is toxic, I am just saying I think you have contributed to the general angst in a lot of threads, then proceeded to complain about it. Have no chip on my shoulder whatsoever. Maybe I am completely wrong, but it is just my perception.
On August 09 2018 06:00 Gorgonoth wrote: Besides the one post before Incontrol's "this thread fucking blows" Most of this thread was pretty on topic and constructive with the occasional oddball rant. I feel like you, Incontrol are the one making this thread devisive by going around and throwing out blanket statements like that.
As much of a fan that I am of Geoff's casting, it seems like his interactions with the Forum have been unnecessarily abrasive and toxic.
Yes I'm abrasive and toxic in here with the people being abrasive and toxic. I don't feel bad about that.. no amount of the classic "I'm a fan BUT" is going to change that.
And no.. the thread wasn't mostly constructive before my post lol. My post was in after reading pages of dumb shit. If you think otherwise that's fine.. it's your opinion. Just like mine is that this thread fucking blows.
Sure I can see your point. I just think that you stir up things alot in various forums, then complain about how "toxic the Bw community is", when you've done/said some pretty inflamatory things. Maybe I am not seeing things fully, but its been bothering me for a while.
Check my posting history mate. I've posted in here as a result and response to a bunch of dumb comments..I'm not at all calling out the people actually using this thread correctly.
You have a chip on your shoulder because a number of months ago I said the BW community on TL is toxic.. which it is. Ok, just don't let it keep you up at night. I don't post on here about BW except 3 times a year or so. I'm sorry if it wounded you though.
I am not denying or agreeing that the community is toxic, I am just saying I think you have contributed to the general angst in a lot of threads, then proceeded to complain about it. Have no chip on my shoulder whatsoever. Maybe I am completely wrong, but it is just my perception.
Again, I am not going to let people say dumb shit about me or my peers without me chiming in every once in awhile. Me "contributing to the angst" is not going to greatly concern me. I keep my mouth shut about 99% of the shit that gets flung my way. Again, you can check my posting history..it's all there for plain joes like yourself. People talk civil with me I respond in kind. People say shit that is meant to hurt my feelings or just be mean? I'm not going to hand them a lollipop. It's who I've been for the 15+ years I've been here mate.
On August 08 2018 20:46 JWD[9] wrote: Let me preface this: I did not watch much of the tournament, Harstem won the particular match and took the jab well, so all is good and no harm done and maybe the whole Tourney wasn't very serious and, as the young folk like to say, a "clown-fiesta".
Just in case it was not, I wanted to say, I was shocked when Wardi used his Referee position during the Map-testing tourney to add salt to the wound when Harstem flew his pheonix into the neutral missile turrets and Wardi in that moment, in the in-game chat wrote to all "Play of the tournament" and "GG". My dainty soul would have been flabbergasted in Harstem's position. It probably was nothing and Wardi probably would never do this in a more serious setting, maybe he send it to all on accident. Still shocked I tell you, I was.
He probably was also not nagging harstem, but pointing out the serendipitous flow of actions. I just would mind if Refs starting chatting in all game chat while I am playing a tournament.
I'm good friends with Harstem and we were already memeing about the turrets a lot. Also there was a separate prize pool for "play of the tournament using the maps", so the "Play of the tournament" was a reference to that, which is what made it funny in general.
Watched wardi casting again today after I 'found' him doing the TL map tourney. So here I am in the feedback thread to laud his general composure and great play-by-play casting, even more impressive when he's casting solo for several hours. Top-notch stuff and a pleasure.
My posts as of late have been ridiculously fanboy-y, but a lot of really good stuff all around the sc2 scene!
I also have huge respect for Wardi for being a champ and pulling those long ass days solo casting, it's a lot of hard work he is doing to bring us all that content. Just wanted to voice my appreciation!
pig, maynarde, and zepph did a nice job on the Montreal Qualifiers last night. The quality of the games was no where near GSL level and some of the wins looked really obvious 3 minutes before the win actually occurred. Some players made some big obvious errors. The casters did a nice job of NOT faking excitement or pretending it was a shocking turn of events that got the win.
The casters were dealt a pretty bad hand with some pretty obvious games with silly errors by players. The casters did a nice job with the weak hand they were dealt. Maynarde is a better caster when he doesn't yell and scream a lot and him losing the ability to yell due to a weekend of screaming was a blessing in disguise. If Maynarde cut his yelling/screaming in half he'd be a better caster. Some of his yelling really fits the moment. Some of it is pointless. Pig was his usual humble, genius self.
during the last game of the Heromarine v. Mana series... whoever is casting with ZombieGrub provides solid info, however, he uses the word "like" approximately 10 times in a 4 or 5 sentence stretch. if he removed the word "like" he'd lose no information and his communication would be clearer.
One of the things that make SC2 casting the best, is that we are not on the forefront of esports and we do not have to act professional and wear fancy clothes. I love the banter. I love the meme's. I love the real-talk.
On August 22 2018 18:30 ejozl wrote: One of the things that make SC2 casting the best, is that we are not on the forefront of esports and we do not have to act professional and wear fancy clothes. I love the banter. I love the meme's. I love the real-talk.
I agree that sc2 is no longer on the forefront of esports, however, the later is what continues to prevent it from being so.
On August 19 2018 01:51 Gurbak wrote: like you don't know who is feardragon
He isn't exactly a household name in SC2
Yeah, even I follow SC2 since the beginning and had no ideia who the guy was when I saw him casting with zombiegrub.
How can you NOT know "99% useless facts with Feardragon?". There are some absolute gems to be found there. Granted, the images don't actually show his face, but at least you get to know the name
On August 23 2018 03:52 Shathe wrote: Tastosis was specially funny today, thanks for the laughs.
I started watching with 1.25x speed from here https://www.twitch.tv/videos/300417617?t=02h28m47s because, frankly, I didn't want to scroll or jump ahead to get the spoiler of who wins by mistake, and had to laugh aloud several times (similarity to the duo here is in part uncanny, with the upwards pitch from the fast-forwarding and all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW0SsH00eyQ)
I think you all are focusing to much on the official caster I think that all the other caster that are not casting Wcs events are also very good. Also other language caster exist too ^^
I would greatly appreciate it if casters would make more of an effort to explain the choices that zerg players make. I can't count the number of times I've heard the 2-1-1 explained, but I can't even remember one time when a roach ravager timing attack was explained other than tasteless saying that 'he's going for more of a battle zerg style'.
A good example is serral v innovation on dream catcher. Before the hellbats even showed up it was obvious what serrals plan was. He took very early gas at his natural, had lair and overlord speed on the way and a roach warren. I think he might have delayed his third as well, I can't remember for certain. But the point is any zerg worth his salt can instantly recognize what serrals plan was, but more attention was given to the fact that the hellbats killed 8 drones. And as we saw (and any decent zerg knows) killing 8 workers with a hellbat attack means next to nothing when all the hellbats died and there's a ravager ling queen all in headed for the counter attack. I honestly doubt serral even cared about trying to save those drones.
Things like that drive me up the wall because when the zerg player wins I feel like no appreciation was shown for the choices they made that lead to that win. And a large part of the audience probably doesn't understand what just happened and feels like zerg just a moved and won.
I feel like Artosis' anti-protoss bias has been entering into his casts more lately. I also am annoyed with how quickly people like rotti and tasteless say that serral is the greatest player in the world because he had one good tournament.
They arent doing serral any favors... so many people ended up disliking neeb partly because of all the gushing that casters gave him.
On August 24 2018 05:07 Rodya wrote: I feel like Artosis' anti-protoss bias has been entering into his casts more lately.
Artosis PLAYS Protoss
nah, artosis is terran in brood war. he doesn't really play SC2, so he does not play protoss
He doesn't play SC2 nor is he playing protoss, you say? Is that way he says "my oracles die to that widow mine" and other similar sentences? Artosis is playing SC2 as protoss.
On August 24 2018 05:07 Rodya wrote: I feel like Artosis' anti-protoss bias has been entering into his casts more lately.
Artosis PLAYS Protoss
nah, artosis is terran in brood war. he doesn't really play SC2, so he does not play protoss
He doesn't play SC2 nor is he playing protoss, you say? Is that way he says "my oracles die to that widow mine" and other similar sentences? Artosis is playing SC2 as protoss.
Oh I see, I can clear this up. In the US, when someone says e.g. "my zealots would just run around in circles and die", they don't mean "I have been in this situation many many times, and my zealots always run in circles and die". What they mean is that "if I were in this EXACT SAME position in this EXACT MOMENT, then my zealots would have ran around in circles and died, instead of being microd perfectly"
It's true that Artosis has played a lot of protoss in SC2, but he has an anti-protoss bias, and he is primarily a terran player (this is a byproduct of the fact that he is a BW player who played SC2 for a bit; I'm pretty sure that he'd agree with this statement).
On August 24 2018 05:07 Rodya wrote: I feel like Artosis' anti-protoss bias has been entering into his casts more lately.
Artosis PLAYS Protoss
nah, artosis is terran in brood war. he doesn't really play SC2, so he does not play protoss
He doesn't play SC2 nor is he playing protoss, you say? Is that way he says "my oracles die to that widow mine" and other similar sentences? Artosis is playing SC2 as protoss.
Oh I see, I can clear this up. In the US, when someone says e.g. "my zealots would just run around in circles and die", they don't mean "I have been in this situation many many times, and my zealots always run in circles and die". What they mean is that "if I were in this EXACT SAME position in this EXACT MOMENT, then my zealots would have ran around in circles and died, instead of being microd perfectly"
It's true that Artosis has played a lot of protoss in SC2, but he has an anti-protoss bias, and he is primarily a terran player (this is a byproduct of the fact that he is a BW player who played SC2 for a bit; I'm pretty sure that he'd agree with this statement).
I don't know where you're getting your information from but it certainly isn't Artosis' stream.
In SC2 he has flip-flopped between Zerg and Protoss, and never really liked Terran. Because SC2 Terran plays nothing like BW Terran. And Artosis of all people would know that.
On August 24 2018 05:07 Rodya wrote: I feel like Artosis' anti-protoss bias has been entering into his casts more lately. I also am annoyed with how quickly people like rotti and tasteless say that serral is the greatest player in the world because he had one good tournament.
They arent doing serral any favors... so many people ended up disliking neeb partly because of all the gushing that casters gave him.
If people like someone solely because other people like them, then tbh I don't care about their opinions at all because its not their opinion, theyre just following the bandwagon. The same thing goes in reverse. If you have an opinion for why someone shouldn't be liked then thats a different story & should be evaluated on its merits. But i don't see any evidence that points to people disliking Serral just because others say he's the greatest in the world right now. And if some do for that reason alone, then who cares because it has nothing to do with his gameplay and/or results, which is what should matter.
But Serral hasn't had just 1 good tournament, he's been overall dominating the WCS scene for over a year now & obviously we all know who & how he took down players at GSL vs The World. A lot of this debate comes down to semantics for me, but Serral has to be considered the greatest foreigner in the world atm, period. I don't think theres any debating that right now. As for him vs top koreans, we only have a small sample size in tournament play. But he does appear to be among the best in the world right now. Is he the best best? Idk. I dont think you're ever gonna get a clear cut answer on that for any player. Whether it be Maru or Stats or Serral or anyone. People will have their own favorites & selections for that honor.
I suppose whoever wins Blizzcon will be crowned best in the world. But for me that could always mean they were simply the best at that event. I think one needs to look at everything in its totality. Perhaps if there wasn't region locking & koreans were able to compete in the WCS Circuit we could have more information to go on. Or if Serral entered the GSL we could see how he stacks up then. Until any of that happens, people will continue to debate the subject & thats fun to do & gets fans hyped. But to say you or someone else won't like a player just because he makes people excited & amazed with his gameplay &/or results, it just sounds a bit ridiculous to me. Serral can't control what others say about him. All he can control is how he performs in games & by all accounts he's been doing pretty darned good. The games are all that should matter.
You misunderstood me - I'm saying that when you overhype a player, then it creates an aura of arrogance around them, even if they are not arrogant themselves. It's a psychological issue, I'm not saying that I hate players who are popular. It's also seen as disrespectful to some to say a foreigner is the best in the world after one weekend tournament. These things can cause people to like Serral less for reasons that aren't related to his personal behavior or play, which I agree is not what we want, but this will very likely occur the more he is overhyped.
But I agree with the rest you've said, pretty much.
On August 26 2018 12:53 Rodya wrote: You misunderstood me - I'm saying that when you overhype a player, then it creates an aura of arrogance around them, even if they are not arrogant themselves. It's a psychological issue, I'm not saying that I hate players who are popular. It's also seen as disrespectful to some to say a foreigner is the best in the world after one weekend tournament. These things can cause people to like Serral less for reasons that aren't related to his personal behavior or play, which I agree is not what we want, but this will very likely occur the more he is overhyped.
But I agree with the rest you've said, pretty much.
Well I guess thats the 1 point I dont understand, where you say people claimed him to be the best in the world after 1 weekend tournament. Because it was 1 weekend tournament after a years worth of dominating the WCS circuit. If it just was a one off random event win then sure, but it wasnt. He won 4 major events prior to that 1 weekend. On the 1v1 ladder he broke the 7k mmr barrier & was on top the ladder on whatever server he played on. What you're referring to is a fluke. Someone like Has's 2nd place run at Valencia for instance. If Has had won & people said he was the greatest player than yeah i'd take issue with that, but I wouldn't hate him or dislike him for what others said. I don't view Serral's performance at GSLVW as a fluke & I'd have a hard time taking anyone's comments to that effect seriously after the year Serral's had. That win was a culmination of everything leading up to it. I get the point youre trying to make, but I think perhaps i'm just the wrong person to think like what you're proposing. I'm too much of an independent thinker to allow peoples opinions to have a serious effect on how I view him. Especially in light of his steady rise to greatness & with all of his achievements this year. For the people it does effect whoever they may be I could care less, thats their problem. I don't think casters should be afraid to give praise to a player on a run like Serral, on the slight chance that some people might dislike Serral because of it. That whole idea just sounds ridiculous to me.
On August 26 2018 12:53 Rodya wrote: You misunderstood me - I'm saying that when you overhype a player, then it creates an aura of arrogance around them, even if they are not arrogant themselves. It's a psychological issue, I'm not saying that I hate players who are popular. It's also seen as disrespectful to some to say a foreigner is the best in the world after one weekend tournament. These things can cause people to like Serral less for reasons that aren't related to his personal behavior or play, which I agree is not what we want, but this will very likely occur the more he is overhyped.
But I agree with the rest you've said, pretty much.
for a guy with 8 posts this guy really knows his stuff!
On August 26 2018 16:12 JD.Cursed wrote: Rifkin! I first want to say that your a great organizer, producer, and host. You are great at all those. Now I want to say that your terrible at observing and casting. Its your choice whether or not to dismiss this post as irrelevant now but I would hope you take in this advice: You seriously need to develop and hone your understanding of the game. Every time I give you the benefit of the doubt and tune into BTTV, you disappoint me by displaying your ignorance.
i think using a word like 'ignorance' when we're discussing knowledge of the tiny details of video game competition needlessly infames the conversation. if you are concerned Rifkin won't accept your criticism try communicating in a more clinical and less emotional manner.
try something like this: imo, Rifkin is informative during BTTV events, however, he is no where near the level of the WCS casters. When Rifkin does marathon casts the quality of his work declines substantially.
rifkin's casting isn't even awful. he has the presence to put in hours of entertainment work and bring events to the community day after day, which is a really valuable. unfortunately the real problems with rifkin are about his attitude toward fans and players, not his casting.
While I do agree, that I'd rather take all the many, many good things Rifkin brings to Starcraft and have him step behind the curtain, he also is a community leader for his own, not so small, sub community of the sc2 community. He is a self made man and if there wasn't an audience, that appreciates his quirkiness, he wouldn't be able to sustain himself. I guess Rifkin is like Ska-music, not for me, but not all music has to be.
On August 27 2018 01:34 brickrd wrote: rifkin's casting isn't even awful. he has the presence to put in hours of entertainment work and bring events to the community day after day, which is a really valuable. unfortunately the real problems with rifkin are about his attitude toward fans and players, not his casting.
Can't really rag on someone's casting if there isn't any, and the commentary talks about bits and subs instead.
Incredible how hilarious Tasteless and Artosis still are. They just don't get sick of each other. Tasteless' conspiracy bid (Vaccines cause autism, chemtrails, more than two genders, moon landing was fake, Hitler lives in Argentina etc) had me in stitches. And that Artosis-hates-Warcraft 3 story was fantastic.
On August 27 2018 06:40 JWD[9] wrote: While I do agree, that I'd rather take all the many, many good things Rifkin brings to Starcraft and have him step behind the curtain, he also is a community leader for his own, not so small, sub community of the sc2 community. He is a self made man and if there wasn't an audience, that appreciates his quirkiness, he wouldn't be able to sustain himself. I guess Rifkin is like Ska-music, not for me, but not all music has to be.
he fills a gap .. nothing more nothing he has done has ever been "for the community" it has always been self interest.. he has no social skills and is not good for sc2.
On August 04 2018 17:27 Noonius wrote: when Tastosis is booked for the event, you know who's gonna be casting the final, and it's getting old.
I know this is an old post but I disagree completely. So many great sc2 moments in the finals handled perfectly by them. I cant imagine any other duo being as funny and informative as tastosis. They, along with day9 are the greatest sc2 commentators ever.
On August 27 2018 06:40 JWD[9] wrote: While I do agree, that I'd rather take all the many, many good things Rifkin brings to Starcraft and have him step behind the curtain, he also is a community leader for his own, not so small, sub community of the sc2 community. He is a self made man and if there wasn't an audience, that appreciates his quirkiness, he wouldn't be able to sustain himself. I guess Rifkin is like Ska-music, not for me, but not all music has to be.
he fills a gap .. nothing more nothing he has done has ever been "for the community" it has always been self interest.. he has no social skills and is not good for sc2.
You can make the same comment that everything any caster does is due to self interest. As for social skills, he certainly has the social skills enough to bring people together, both players and casters, and with it people to watch and commentate. That said, he is a god-awful caster, but that's just his fault as a caster, not as a community figure.
On August 27 2018 06:40 JWD[9] wrote: While I do agree, that I'd rather take all the many, many good things Rifkin brings to Starcraft and have him step behind the curtain, he also is a community leader for his own, not so small, sub community of the sc2 community. He is a self made man and if there wasn't an audience, that appreciates his quirkiness, he wouldn't be able to sustain himself. I guess Rifkin is like Ska-music, not for me, but not all music has to be.
he fills a gap .. nothing more nothing he has done has ever been "for the community" it has always been self interest.. he has no social skills and is not good for sc2.
the next breathe of oxygen you inhale is an act of self interest.
you are more than welcome to start your own SC2 channel that holds dozens and dozens of cash paying tournaments throughout the year. it'll be interesting to see if your channel and events is better than BTTV.
have people in this thread cited ways BTTV could be better? yep. how many are suggesting the scene is better off without BTTV? i think that # is approximately 0.
BTTV, Rifkin and ZombieGrub have made some really solid contributions to the SC2 competitive scene for the last 5+ years.
On August 27 2018 06:40 JWD[9] wrote: While I do agree, that I'd rather take all the many, many good things Rifkin brings to Starcraft and have him step behind the curtain, he also is a community leader for his own, not so small, sub community of the sc2 community. He is a self made man and if there wasn't an audience, that appreciates his quirkiness, he wouldn't be able to sustain himself. I guess Rifkin is like Ska-music, not for me, but not all music has to be.
he fills a gap .. nothing more nothing he has done has ever been "for the community" it has always been self interest.. he has no social skills and is not good for sc2.
the next breathe of oxygen you inhale is an act of self interest.
you are more than welcome to start your own SC2 channel that holds dozens and dozens of cash paying tournaments throughout the year. it'll be interesting to see if your channel and events is better than BTTV.
have people in this thread cited ways BTTV could be better? yep. how many are suggesting the scene is better off without BTTV? i think that # is approximately 0.
BTTV, Rifkin and ZombieGrub have made some really solid contributions to the SC2 competitive scene for the last 5+ years.
Yeah, im consciously stopping myself of criticizing Basetrade and Wardi and posting here about them (well until now i guess). I just really have to remind myself to appreciate the work they put in, which results in having high level games streamed in off-seasons, and just ignore the bad parts. I keep telling myself, they arent casters, they re tourney organizers who also talk over the games they put on air, no reason to hold them to that standard. I mostly just mute the stream and watch the games.
On August 27 2018 06:40 JWD[9] wrote: While I do agree, that I'd rather take all the many, many good things Rifkin brings to Starcraft and have him step behind the curtain, he also is a community leader for his own, not so small, sub community of the sc2 community. He is a self made man and if there wasn't an audience, that appreciates his quirkiness, he wouldn't be able to sustain himself. I guess Rifkin is like Ska-music, not for me, but not all music has to be.
he fills a gap .. nothing more nothing he has done has ever been "for the community" it has always been self interest.. he has no social skills and is not good for sc2.
the next breathe of oxygen you inhale is an act of self interest.
you are more than welcome to start your own SC2 channel that holds dozens and dozens of cash paying tournaments throughout the year. it'll be interesting to see if your channel and events is better than BTTV.
have people in this thread cited ways BTTV could be better? yep. how many are suggesting the scene is better off without BTTV? i think that # is approximately 0.
BTTV, Rifkin and ZombieGrub have made some really solid contributions to the SC2 competitive scene for the last 5+ years.
i happen to think that streamers make an impact on impressionable people who watch them just like kids do what their parents do, thinking that is the way to act. This is how the world works, bad people that give their all (and don't get me wrong i do think he does invest / work his all at it) get into a position to influence the candid people concerned .. i'm just playing my part calling him out on it. Sc2 would be better off without him, just like it is better without des tiny or others.
There was no "solid contributions".. he got players money to compete into his tournaments, it is business!
Just like winter who spent months/years playing ladder against players that were way below his skill level, "having fun" / misrepresenting/denaturing the reality of the game, is one of the worst thing that has happened to sc2 (team liquid / "sc2 community" never calling him on it / not running him off) .. mister rifkin makes the world of sc2 a worst place.
Now many of you argue that you would rather have those games/tournaments than not have them, that the game would die without bttv or something.. so you just ignore this .. i am just here saying that there are consequences to this "wearing blinders".
tldr: sc2 community is what it is because people are afraid to lose their game, sc2 deserves better (again i argued about him, not people he "recruited")
On August 28 2018 01:46 hobbyistGamedev wrote: Incredible how hilarious Tasteless and Artosis still are. They just don't get sick of each other. Tasteless' conspiracy bid (Vaccines cause autism, chemtrails, more than two genders, moon landing was fake, Hitler lives in Argentina etc) had me in stitches. And that Artosis-hates-Warcraft 3 story was fantastic.
I do hope they'll be casting forever.
I understand that everyone likes different things and maybe i've just been watching the GSL too long, (since the very beginning) but i don't find them funny anymore and Tasteless really annoys me now.
Artosis has great game knowledge, obviously does his homework and apart from always wanting to name player X as the best from race Y in the world atm he is very good.
Tasteless on the other hand has very poor game knowledge for someone who has been a caster for the whole of Sc2, obviously does little to no research on players, drones on and on about Brood war, calls a Baneling Nest a "Banelings Nest" and a host of other things that really get on my goat.
In fairness to him he's more of a pure caster as opposed to Artosis who is an analyst but after all this time he should be much better informed. They do have great chemistry together for sure but because of Tasteless the GSL is starting to resemble the TV series that you have watched for ever but you know it's coming to an end because it just isn't like it used to be.
On August 28 2018 17:30 fluidrone wrote: There was no "solid contributions".. he got players money to compete into his tournaments, it is business!
Just like winter who spent months/years playing ladder against players that were way below his skill level, "having fun" / misrepresenting/denaturing the reality of the game, is one of the worst thing that has happened to sc2 (team liquid / "sc2 community" never calling him on it / not running him off) .. mister rifkin makes the world of sc2 a worst place.
Now many of you argue that you would rather have those games/tournaments than not have them, that the game would die without bttv or something.. so you just ignore this .. i am just here saying that there are consequences to this "wearing blinders".
tldr: sc2 community is what it is because people are afraid to lose their game, sc2 deserves better (again i argued about him, not people he "recruited")
You get that these aren't fixed job positions, right? There's nothing stopping a caster with more knowledge, more talent, and better production coming into the scene and organising their own tournaments.
Have you ever considered that you're the one wearing blinders?
I assume your theory is: people want to watch Starcraft, there is a market for Starcraft content, the market only supports one regular tournament broadcaster. So if BTTV were to just up and quit then someone else would replace them.
But what if you're wrong? What if no one steps into the gap and the only way to earn money from the scene is to attend a premier tournament that happens a dozen times a year. Decentivizing the professional playerbase. Reducing the opportunities for actual tournament practice.
I'm also not even sure by what measure people are saying the casting is horrible. There're, what, twenty regular English speaking casters across the entire scene? Who do you think is better? Who do you think deserves to be broadcasting daily tournaments? Who do you imagine would be a better, more deserving, version of BTTV? Or is it just some mythical, imagined figure that you assume is waiting in the wings, supressed by the mere presence of Rifkin?
I can think of a dozen casters off hand over the years who were much worse, and who have gone on to cast bigger games and bigger tournaments. BTTV produces (more or less) professional content on a regular basis. You just don't like Rifkin. If he was solving world hunger you'd complain that someone else could do it better.
On August 28 2018 17:30 fluidrone wrote: There was no "solid contributions".. he got players money to compete into his tournaments, it is business!
Just like winter who spent months/years playing ladder against players that were way below his skill level, "having fun" / misrepresenting/denaturing the reality of the game, is one of the worst thing that has happened to sc2 (team liquid / "sc2 community" never calling him on it / not running him off) .. mister rifkin makes the world of sc2 a worst place.
Now many of you argue that you would rather have those games/tournaments than not have them, that the game would die without bttv or something.. so you just ignore this .. i am just here saying that there are consequences to this "wearing blinders".
tldr: sc2 community is what it is because people are afraid to lose their game, sc2 deserves better (again i argued about him, not people he "recruited")
You get that these aren't fixed job positions, right? There's nothing stopping a caster with more knowledge, more talent, and better production coming into the scene and organising their own tournaments.
Have you ever considered that you're the one wearing blinders?
I assume your theory is: people want to watch Starcraft, there is a market for Starcraft content, the market only supports one regular tournament broadcaster. So if BTTV were to just up and quit then someone else would replace them.
But what if you're wrong? What if no one steps into the gap and the only way to earn money from the scene is to attend a premier tournament that happens a dozen times a year. Decentivizing the professional playerbase. Reducing the opportunities for actual tournament practice.
I'm also not even sure by what measure people are saying the casting is horrible. There're, what, twenty regular English speaking casters across the entire scene? Who do you think is better? Who do you think deserves to be broadcasting daily tournaments? Who do you imagine would be a better, more deserving, version of BTTV? Or is it just some mythical, imagined figure that you assume is waiting in the wings, supressed by the mere presence of Rifkin?
I can think of a dozen casters off hand over the years who were much worse, and who have gone on to cast bigger games and bigger tournaments. BTTV produces (more or less) professional content on a regular basis. You just don't like Rifkin. If he was solving world hunger you'd complain that someone else could do it better.
Nope. You can misread and misrepresent my post to bait me into repeating what i posted but that will not get you much
You get that these aren't fixed job positions, right?
lousy bait, try harder
Have you ever considered that you're the one wearing blinders?
ahahahahahahahahaha
What if no one steps into the gap and the only way to earn money from the scene is to attend a premier tournament that happens a dozen times a year. Decentivizing the professional playerbase. Reducing the opportunities for actual tournament practice.
If you had bothered to read my post properly you would have seen that this is precisely what i am saying is making people watch his content. People investing money in esports does not make them well intended or well behaved people.
I'm also not even sure by what measure people are saying the casting is horrible. There're, what, twenty regular English speaking casters across the entire scene? Who do you think is better? Who do you think deserves to be broadcasting daily tournaments? Who do you imagine would be a better, more deserving, version of BTTV? Or is it just some mythical, imagined figure that you assume is waiting in the wings, supressed by the mere presence of Rifkin?
i never even mentioned his casting = ergo you did not read my post or worst, ignored it or misslead future readers of your post as to my intent. i commented on his attitude and practices, saying that he is doing exactly what he accused the rest of the "sc2 community" was doing to him several months/years ago.
Day9 would be better than Rifkin. Just saying this because the guy above me asked for someone who is better and Day9 isn't even casting any starcraft 2. BTTV is good for the community, but it doesn't mean their casting is good; personally I don't care because I almost always mute casters that aren't Tastosis these days (back in the day there wasn't this strong Western bias that pretty much makes a lot of casters unbareable).
Just FYI I don't think that BTTV should change casters, I think the casters should just keep practicing and getting better and so on. I mean if you're going to practice and gain experience, online tournaments are where to do it, and BTTV gets a lot of viewers.
Just watched a minute or so of the current cast, they are definitely getting better, though they still have to work on the clarity of their speech (volume/articulation) throughout the cast, and also after a big event occurs, instead of saying "this player now takes a lead" you should point out a tactic or something that one of the players used to win the situation, like gumiho dropping hellbats on top of Cure's marines.
On August 28 2018 23:30 fluidrone wrote: i never even mentioned his casting = ergo you did not read my post or worst, ignored it or misslead future readers of your post as to my intent. i commented on his attitude and practices, saying that he is doing exactly what he accused the rest of the "sc2 community" was doing to him several months/years ago.
Obviously English isn't your first language, but the section you're quoting says "people" (the plural of person -- i.e. I wasn't referring to you specifically, or neccesarily at all). The second half of your post is you repeating yourself. The first half of your post is essentially laughing, nothing, and a paranoid fear that I'm trying to bait you.
Which is to say your reply holds no points of worth and I replied purely to address your confusion. You're welcome to your views, personally I find them nonsensical and unworthy of addressing logically, since they're entirely emotive.
On August 28 2018 23:30 fluidrone wrote: i never even mentioned his casting = ergo you did not read my post or worst, ignored it or misslead future readers of your post as to my intent. i commented on his attitude and practices, saying that he is doing exactly what he accused the rest of the "sc2 community" was doing to him several months/years ago.
Obviously English isn't your first language, but the section you're quoting says "people" (the plural of person -- i.e. I wasn't referring to you specifically, or neccesarily at all). The second half of your post is you repeating yourself. The first half of your post is essentially laughing, nothing, and a paranoid fear that I'm trying to bait you.
Which is to say your reply holds no points of worth and I replied purely to address your confusion. You're welcome to your views, personally I find them nonsensical and unworthy of addressing logically, since they're entirely emotive.
On August 28 2018 17:30 fluidrone wrote: There was no "solid contributions".. he got players money to compete into his tournaments, it is business!
Just like winter who spent months/years playing ladder against players that were way below his skill level, "having fun" / misrepresenting/denaturing the reality of the game, is one of the worst thing that has happened to sc2 (team liquid / "sc2 community" never calling him on it / not running him off) .. mister rifkin makes the world of sc2 a worst place.
Now many of you argue that you would rather have those games/tournaments than not have them, that the game would die without bttv or something.. so you just ignore this .. i am just here saying that there are consequences to this "wearing blinders".
tldr: sc2 community is what it is because people are afraid to lose their game, sc2 deserves better (again i argued about him, not people he "recruited")
You get that these aren't fixed job positions, right? There's nothing stopping a caster with more knowledge, more talent, and better production coming into the scene and organising their own tournaments.
Have you ever considered that you're the one wearing blinders?
I assume your theory is: people want to watch Starcraft, there is a market for Starcraft content, the market only supports one regular tournament broadcaster. So if BTTV were to just up and quit then someone else would replace them.
But what if you're wrong? What if no one steps into the gap and the only way to earn money from the scene is to attend a premier tournament that happens a dozen times a year. Decentivizing the professional playerbase. Reducing the opportunities for actual tournament practice.
I'm also not even sure by what measure people are saying the casting is horrible. There're, what, twenty regular English speaking casters across the entire scene? Who do you think is better? Who do you think deserves to be broadcasting daily tournaments? Who do you imagine would be a better, more deserving, version of BTTV? Or is it just some mythical, imagined figure that you assume is waiting in the wings, supressed by the mere presence of Rifkin?
I can think of a dozen casters off hand over the years who were much worse, and who have gone on to cast bigger games and bigger tournaments. BTTV produces (more or less) professional content on a regular basis. You just don't like Rifkin. If he was solving world hunger you'd complain that someone else could do it better.
i am many things but paranoiac .. sorry .. no
"obviously" you cannot read what you wrote .. sad really...
Since bait war has started, i'll oblige "messieurs les anglais.. tirez les premiers!"*
You just don't like Rifkin. If he was solving world hunger you'd complain that someone else could do it better.
You are not very good at baiting and this last quoting of your posting proves that you are trying to do so.
So .. hence i'm not in the least bit interested in what you have to say ... glhf + Show Spoiler +
*quote from louix XV'th's "general", it reads "english gentlemen.. fire first"
In your first post you quoted the last paragraph (which is aimed at anyone and everyone). In this post you quote everything but the last paragraph (which were aimed at you). It's really not that complicated. Note that you even didn't answer half of the questions I asked. You simply conflated them all into casting, and then complained you never talked about casting.
Either way, your manic, irrational, childish posting style is tiring. Spin yourself into a frenzy as much as you like.
On August 28 2018 23:34 Rodya wrote: Day9 would be better than Rifkin. Just saying this because the guy above me asked for someone who is better and Day9 isn't even casting any starcraft 2. BTTV is good for the community, but it doesn't mean their casting is good; personally I don't care because I almost always mute casters that aren't Tastosis these days (back in the day there wasn't this strong Western bias that pretty much makes a lot of casters unbareable).
Just FYI I don't think that BTTV should change casters, I think the casters should just keep practicing and getting better and so on. I mean if you're going to practice and gain experience, online tournaments are where to do it, and BTTV gets a lot of viewers.
Just watched a minute or so of the current cast, they are definitely getting better, though they still have to work on the clarity of their speech (volume/articulation) throughout the cast, and also after a big event occurs, instead of saying "this player now takes a lead" you should point out a tactic or something that one of the players used to win the situation, like gumiho dropping hellbats on top of Cure's marines.
And you know why Day9 doesn't cast and run online SC2 tournaments? Because the money he would make from it is not worth his time or effort. I'm sure it'd be great if Artosis and Tasteless cast all these online events too - but they won't because the pay isn't there.
This entire thread needs to take a step back and realize that there are some pretty huge differences between casting a WCS/GSL and to casting online. I've been reading this the last few days and I can't sit and read without providing a perspective which seems to be completely ignored.
When you cast online you are in almost the worst conditions possible to put on great commentary - you are likely in charge of observing, production issues, player issues. You are also likely having some mindfulness put towards your stream chat, social media and more because all of these things are your job.
The goal in a BTTV stream, or one of my own streams, is of course to cast SC2 games and to provide SC2 content and tournaments - but it's also about making the money to run these events and to support ourselves. When all the premiere casters cast stuff online it is not their main source of income - their own personal playing streams are alongside with the payment they are getting for casting big tournaments - so they don't have to do the whole selling-out jive.
When me / Rifkin cast, we need to make money. This isn't us being greedy, this isn't us thinking we found a goose laying gold eggs with SC2, it's because we need to pay rent, eat and to you know sort of enjoy a bit of life at the same time? Go look at the thousands of dollars BTTV give out as prize money on a regular basis - this is all money Rifkin makes but has to put BACK INTO the system to be able to then make more money again. I have the same thing, I did the math and I put in about 40-50% of all money I make on stream back into tournaments. There are a lot of costs of running a tournament stream instead of just coming online and laddering.
The reality is, as much as some of you hate it and want to complain about it if we talk about subs, donations, bits and we act in a more sell-out way, we make more money. Significantly more. Actually it's crazy but I went from the point of "I don't think I can continue to do this" to "I'm fairly comfortable continuing doing this" because I took on a more sell-out approach, I decided I would push sub goals, donation goals, mention things every hour etc.
And honestly, I hate it -- do you know how much more I would prefer to not have to repeat myself again and again and to be able to take the time to have even more fun with the chat or to recap the last fight in the previous game as the next game gets going? I'm sure my viewership would go up if I didn't have to run ads every 30-45 minutes - but if I don't I can't afford to run events and I can't afford to stick around as a SC2 caster.
Now I've focused primarily on the "money" side of things, I want to tap back to the difference between casting online and casting at an event. Yesterday I was casting QLASH league with Rotti and honestly I felt like I put on a horrific cast compared to Rotti. I messed up a lot - my observing was bad because we had production issues and so I had to fix that and trying to communicate with chat, fix mic issues and observe while ALSO listening to what Rotti is saying and responding is extremely difficult. This might sound stupid, but this bad start doesn't exactly help you "get in the zone" or get rolling - in fact something like this at a start of a broadcast always lingers on my mind and I never feel I can focus properly from there.
The stresses of doing your own online production obviously get less with how much money you put into it - if you have a co-caster you will miss less, if you have an admin you don't have to worry about the players as much. If somethings happened to me in my real life that day, that can come into play, which kind of leads me to my next point : People have off days.
You know what, some days I really suck. My focus isn't there, I'm not feeling it, it's the 7th Stargate Phoenix-Oracle opening in a row and my chat is complaining that I'm not analyzing the game even though we watched this for the last 2 hours already. When you cast long hours and when you cast almost every day, you're going to run into these issues and this is going to happen a lot more often and then it's going to be more recognized. Then people recognize it and call you out and that makes you feel bad too. The reality is you can't be your 100% every single online cast that you do, otherwise you'd be a f casting god. But the hours we have to put in and the regularity we have to put on a show means that mistakes are going to happen and people are going to realize them - we will have silly days and days where suddenly the words just escape us.
You compare this to the conditions of casting at an offline event. First up you're more physically amped up and on the ball - offline events are more important and higher stakes than a lot of online events and this is something you feel as a caster. You don't have to cast as many series in a row, so when you are casting you are more revitalized, it doesn't feel like you are repeating yourself because its the 8th series of the day and guess what, nobody vetoed Acid Plant AGAIN. The hype is there, your co-caster is right next to you and you're looking at each other and feeling the excitement, you're pointing at the screen and sharing moments of shock and awe in person.
You can stand up and jump and scream because you don't have to be sat down and observing the game - you can be comfortable in your mind because some poor soul in production is the one that has to make sure everything is going right. You don't have to interact with chat, make sure you're getting enough subs to pay for the event, enough bits to pay rent, because you already know you're being paid. Need a drink, talent manager is on it for you. You are looked after and there to cast and because of it you can do a freaking good job.
At home I can't sit and scream every hour every day and get hyped for every match, if I did that I would burn out too quickly. I can't be in a perfect condition every day. I have to worry about things outside of just casting the game. My job is more than just casting the game, compared to when I cast at a large event.
So can we please stop comparing our online casting with people's Blizzcon performances? It's ridiculous, it makes no sense at all and it really feels like you guys are just using it because you want the joy of shitting on people without actually putting any thought into the hundreds of extra things going on behind the scenes that we have to deal with to bring you these tournaments.
But yeah. I know the pain. I know how you feel. I had some audio problemy few days ago and read a lot of a sty stuff on my chat about the stream in not „ profesional”. It is hard as hell to cast and do all the other stuff by yourself.
Word Wardi. Anyone out there ever had a lackluster day at work? Where you couldn't focus, were tired or distracted, made mistakes or just couldn't be arsed putting in 100%? Yes casters get that too! Compared to traditional sports commentary, esports casters (online especially) work much longer hours and often over insanely long stretches.
There seems to be a lot of complaining in this thread, with less and less actual feedback or constructive criticism. If someone's casting is pissing you off that much, then just mute them ffs and figure out what's happening in the game yourself.
Personally, I'm grateful for everybody that puts the time and effort into producing starcraft content. It's an amazing game, and watching high level players go at it will never cease to be fun. I don't really understand the whining about some of the casters, but I think it's fairly ridiculous that any comment about Rifkin or Wardi doesn't mention the effort that goes into the production. eg: "I love how much content BTTV puts out there, great work on that Rifkin, but sometimes it does feel like your stream is kind of a private party for the people in chat who give you the most money."
Anyway, it really isn't hard to just mute a stream, turn addblock off, turn the music you want to listen to on, and watch like that. Hell, I do it with the 'highest quality' productions like GSL fairly frequently. IMO, the point of watching starcraft is watching starcraft, and all the great or bad things casters/producers do on top of that -- personally, I think Wardi has a great, relaxing style of commentary, even if he's not the best analyst or hypeman -- is just the cherry on top. Not everybody likes a cherry on their sundae! Take it off and stop complaining if you don't. I'll be honest, a lot of what Rifkin says does annoy the hell out of me -- and so I just mute the cast and appreciate all the amazing work and effort he puts into producing high quality tournaments, fun 'chat-games,' and so forth.
Thanks again to all the casters, producers, and players who put their effort in and continue to make the scene worth following.
On August 29 2018 21:53 Ishmael wrote: I don't really understand the whining about some of the casters, but I think it's fairly ridiculous that any comment about Rifkin or Wardi doesn't mention the effort that goes into the production. eg: "I love how much content BTTV puts out there, great work on that Rifkin, but sometimes it does feel like your stream is kind of a private party for the people in chat who give you the most money."
Well the world is quite cruel sometimes, people at the end of the day mostly care about the end result and the end product that they receive. If they find it to be lacking, many people won't care about the actual effort and work that goes into it.
That said I don't respect the comparison between Rifkin and Wardi. To the best of my knowledge, Wardi has always tried to carry himself and his stream in a respectable manner. He has not taken unseemly and ignorant pot shots at players, or at other community members, or at the community itself. He has stayed away from drama. Which is why, even if I didn't like Wardi's content (which I actually do, for the same reasons you yourself pointed out) I would still be able to point at him and say "he's a respectable person, he deserves support for his efforts".
On August 29 2018 20:41 Wardi wrote: The reality is, as much as some of you hate it and want to complain about it if we talk about subs, donations, bits and we act in a more sell-out way, we make more money. Significantly more. Actually it's crazy but I went from the point of "I don't think I can continue to do this" to "I'm fairly comfortable continuing doing this" because I took on a more sell-out approach, I decided I would push sub goals, donation goals, mention things every hour etc.
i don't think you are "selling out". the reality is that every broadcast needs to make money to continue. every video game needs to make money to continue. this web site needs to make money to continue. without money the broadcasts, games and web sites... die. life is a continuous, self-sustaining, self-generating process. those living entities that fail in this constant feedback loop ... die.
people have said money is the root of all evil. has any one ever bothered to ask: what is the root of money? money's value derives from the productive efforts of those using money as value in trade. productive effort is the root of money. if no one produces anything the fancy pieces of paper in our wallets have zero value. productive effort is the root of money.
i'm glad to hear you can live comfortably and make some cash as you produce fascinating SC2 content. production is a noble act. i hope you are proud of your efforts.
this isn't easy advice to follow but i'll say it any way: try to ignore the haters as much as you can.
I've been a big fan of Wardi's for years now. And he's right, the majority of people have no idea how much effort & work is put into casting these online events. I've seen him casting events in the past that only got a couple hundred viewers, and he still works/casts as if its in front of 1000's. As a musician myself I can tell you if i'm playing in front of a small crowd, that isn't easy to do. The countless hours over the years these casters put into Starcraft2, to the vocal minority might be about making money, but to all of us it should be self evident that its because of their love of the game & the passion they have for it all.
For myself i know when i'm doing something because i care about it, when i hear something overly critical about what i'm doing, even if its just from 1 person out of 100, it'll get under my skin & its what i'll gravitate to. It's sometimes hard to think about the big picture when someones sticking you in your gut with a fork haha. The point i'm trying to make here is that the overwhelming amount of viewers appreciate & respect what our SC2 casters do. It's mostly the minority who you'll never make happy & they'll just always have something negative to say about anything. For the most of us I believe we all realize we have it better than most other games in terms of our SC2 casters. All you need to do is watch a LoL event or some other game to realize how lucky we are to have the group we have.
Forum threads & posts tend to be more focused on criticizing than on giving praise or simply saying thank you. Perhaps we as a community could do a better job in that regard. We all have our favorites when it comes to casters or personalities, but nobody in this scene is going to be making millions of dollars, they're doing what they do because they love this game & we should not only appreciate that, but respect that as well.
On August 30 2018 01:23 billynasty wrote: I've been a big fan of Wardi's for years now. And he's right, the majority of people have no idea how much effort & work is put into casting these online events. I've seen him casting events in the past that only got a couple hundred viewers, and he still works/casts as if its in front of 1000's. As a musician myself I can tell you if i'm playing in front of a small crowd, that isn't easy to do. The countless hours over the years these casters put into Starcraft2, to the vocal minority might be about making money, but to all of us it should be self evident that its because of their love of the game & the passion they have for it all.
For myself i know when i'm doing something because i care about it, when i hear something overly critical about what i'm doing, even if its just from 1 person out of 100, it'll get under my skin & its what i'll gravitate to. It's sometimes hard to think about the big picture when someones sticking you in your gut with a fork haha. The point i'm trying to make here is that the overwhelming amount of viewers appreciate & respect what our SC2 casters do. It's mostly the minority who you'll never make happy & they'll just always have something negative to say about anything. For the most of us I believe we all realize we have it better than most other games in terms of our SC2 casters. All you need to do is watch a LoL event or some other game to realize how lucky we are to have the group we have.
Forum threads & posts tend to be more focused on criticizing than on giving praise or simply saying thank you. Perhaps we as a community could do a better job in that regard. We all have our favorites when it comes to casters or personalities, but nobody in this scene is going to be making millions of dollars, they're doing what they do because they love this game & we should not only appreciate that, but respect that as well.
Holy shit yes.
This thread needs a clean up and to get back on topic. This isn't the "compare and shit on casters" thread, its the feedback thread where criticism must be constructive and praise can and should be dished out freely.
On August 28 2018 23:34 Rodya wrote: Day9 would be better than Rifkin. Just saying this because the guy above me asked for someone who is better and Day9 isn't even casting any starcraft 2. BTTV is good for the community, but it doesn't mean their casting is good; personally I don't care because I almost always mute casters that aren't Tastosis these days (back in the day there wasn't this strong Western bias that pretty much makes a lot of casters unbareable).
Just FYI I don't think that BTTV should change casters, I think the casters should just keep practicing and getting better and so on. I mean if you're going to practice and gain experience, online tournaments are where to do it, and BTTV gets a lot of viewers.
Just watched a minute or so of the current cast, they are definitely getting better, though they still have to work on the clarity of their speech (volume/articulation) throughout the cast, and also after a big event occurs, instead of saying "this player now takes a lead" you should point out a tactic or something that one of the players used to win the situation, like gumiho dropping hellbats on top of Cure's marines.
And you know why Day9 doesn't cast and run online SC2 tournaments? Because the money he would make from it is not worth his time or effort. I'm sure it'd be great if Artosis and Tasteless cast all these online events too - but they won't because the pay isn't there.
This entire thread needs to take a step back and realize that there are some pretty huge differences between casting a WCS/GSL and to casting online. I've been reading this the last few days and I can't sit and read without providing a perspective which seems to be completely ignored.
When you cast online you are in almost the worst conditions possible to put on great commentary - you are likely in charge of observing, production issues, player issues. You are also likely having some mindfulness put towards your stream chat, social media and more because all of these things are your job.
The goal in a BTTV stream, or one of my own streams, is of course to cast SC2 games and to provide SC2 content and tournaments - but it's also about making the money to run these events and to support ourselves. When all the premiere casters cast stuff online it is not their main source of income - their own personal playing streams are alongside with the payment they are getting for casting big tournaments - so they don't have to do the whole selling-out jive.
When me / Rifkin cast, we need to make money. This isn't us being greedy, this isn't us thinking we found a goose laying gold eggs with SC2, it's because we need to pay rent, eat and to you know sort of enjoy a bit of life at the same time? Go look at the thousands of dollars BTTV give out as prize money on a regular basis - this is all money Rifkin makes but has to put BACK INTO the system to be able to then make more money again. I have the same thing, I did the math and I put in about 40-50% of all money I make on stream back into tournaments. There are a lot of costs of running a tournament stream instead of just coming online and laddering.
The reality is, as much as some of you hate it and want to complain about it if we talk about subs, donations, bits and we act in a more sell-out way, we make more money. Significantly more. Actually it's crazy but I went from the point of "I don't think I can continue to do this" to "I'm fairly comfortable continuing doing this" because I took on a more sell-out approach, I decided I would push sub goals, donation goals, mention things every hour etc.
And honestly, I hate it -- do you know how much more I would prefer to not have to repeat myself again and again and to be able to take the time to have even more fun with the chat or to recap the last fight in the previous game as the next game gets going? I'm sure my viewership would go up if I didn't have to run ads every 30-45 minutes - but if I don't I can't afford to run events and I can't afford to stick around as a SC2 caster.
Now I've focused primarily on the "money" side of things, I want to tap back to the difference between casting online and casting at an event. Yesterday I was casting QLASH league with Rotti and honestly I felt like I put on a horrific cast compared to Rotti. I messed up a lot - my observing was bad because we had production issues and so I had to fix that and trying to communicate with chat, fix mic issues and observe while ALSO listening to what Rotti is saying and responding is extremely difficult. This might sound stupid, but this bad start doesn't exactly help you "get in the zone" or get rolling - in fact something like this at a start of a broadcast always lingers on my mind and I never feel I can focus properly from there.
The stresses of doing your own online production obviously get less with how much money you put into it - if you have a co-caster you will miss less, if you have an admin you don't have to worry about the players as much. If somethings happened to me in my real life that day, that can come into play, which kind of leads me to my next point : People have off days.
You know what, some days I really suck. My focus isn't there, I'm not feeling it, it's the 7th Stargate Phoenix-Oracle opening in a row and my chat is complaining that I'm not analyzing the game even though we watched this for the last 2 hours already. When you cast long hours and when you cast almost every day, you're going to run into these issues and this is going to happen a lot more often and then it's going to be more recognized. Then people recognize it and call you out and that makes you feel bad too. The reality is you can't be your 100% every single online cast that you do, otherwise you'd be a f casting god. But the hours we have to put in and the regularity we have to put on a show means that mistakes are going to happen and people are going to realize them - we will have silly days and days where suddenly the words just escape us.
You compare this to the conditions of casting at an offline event. First up you're more physically amped up and on the ball - offline events are more important and higher stakes than a lot of online events and this is something you feel as a caster. You don't have to cast as many series in a row, so when you are casting you are more revitalized, it doesn't feel like you are repeating yourself because its the 8th series of the day and guess what, nobody vetoed Acid Plant AGAIN. The hype is there, your co-caster is right next to you and you're looking at each other and feeling the excitement, you're pointing at the screen and sharing moments of shock and awe in person.
You can stand up and jump and scream because you don't have to be sat down and observing the game - you can be comfortable in your mind because some poor soul in production is the one that has to make sure everything is going right. You don't have to interact with chat, make sure you're getting enough subs to pay for the event, enough bits to pay rent, because you already know you're being paid. Need a drink, talent manager is on it for you. You are looked after and there to cast and because of it you can do a freaking good job.
At home I can't sit and scream every hour every day and get hyped for every match, if I did that I would burn out too quickly. I can't be in a perfect condition every day. I have to worry about things outside of just casting the game. My job is more than just casting the game, compared to when I cast at a large event.
So can we please stop comparing our online casting with people's Blizzcon performances? It's ridiculous, it makes no sense at all and it really feels like you guys are just using it because you want the joy of shitting on people without actually putting any thought into the hundreds of extra things going on behind the scenes that we have to deal with to bring you these tournaments.
Most of what you say comes down to the fact that you are alone. Why not having a couple people helping you? Even though you said you are getting more comfortable with the money now that push it more, I am not even talking about a paid team. Many people could help admin your chats or tournaments for instance or be the obs and so on. This would even give many people some experience and help the community to actually grow, or at least sustain itself. If you split it among different people it is a low enough amount of work that many could agree to do it for not much (the experience, the good time, the proximity of the pros, a couple in game gift or other sponsored/signed reward you could negotiate with players/brands..., but not a pay check). In this many, you cannot say that it is impossible to find people competent enough to do it (including a most likely required quick learning period)
The Caster Feedback Thread is not a place to needlessly bash casters. If your post does not actually provide any constructive criticism, then you will receive a mod action. Everyone, please be wary of what you post.
Great casters - Apollo, Tastetosis, Day9, RotterDam, Maynarde
I have to say listening to Rifkin gets really really annoying BUT he is the creator of this content and it is totally up to him how he casts. If we dont like it we dont have to watch it. I still watch base trade regularly but yes it does get annoying to listen to the casters, derping out. We love this great game but when my GF hears some of the casters she's like ''Those people sound so annoying'' Sadly i agree. But again its their content they run the tournaments put a lot of work into it for sometimes nearly no money coming back. We should respect them
I really miss Apollo his breakdown of the builds it was great for helping us noob's how to learn the game.
Only thing i would ask Rifikin is to stop begging for subs all the time we are trying to watch the action, And making such cringe moments when casting with Zombie grub. Making jokes that a teenager would make. Its not cool man.
On August 30 2018 22:18 Seeker wrote: The Caster Feedback Thread is not a place to needlessly bash casters. If your post does not actually provide any constructive criticism, then you will receive a mod action. Everyone, please be wary of what you post.
Are you referring to my post? If you are, my point is absolutely not to bash anyone. It is a genuine question. I just detailed how I see things from an outsider perspective, and am really curious on what the insider perspective compares. I may be missing obvious point, but also, when you are too focused, you may skip some too. It's his job, he makes a living out of it, not me. Unless otherwise proven by me doing at least as much, he has a better experience than me, hence why I ask.
On August 30 2018 22:18 Seeker wrote: The Caster Feedback Thread is not a place to needlessly bash casters. If your post does not actually provide any constructive criticism, then you will receive a mod action. Everyone, please be wary of what you post.
Are you referring to my post? If you are, my point is absolutely not to bash anyone. It is a genuine question. I just detailed how I see things from an outsider perspective, and am really curious on what the insider perspective compares. I may be missing obvious point, but also, when you are too focused, you may skip some too. It's his job, he makes a living out of it, not me. Unless otherwise proven by me doing at least as much, he has a better experience than me, hence why I ask.
No, I was not referring to your post. We've been getting complaints that the CFT has been lacking moderation, so I was making a note for everyone to see.
If I was referring to your post, I would have quoted you.
On August 30 2018 22:18 Seeker wrote: The Caster Feedback Thread is not a place to needlessly bash casters. If your post does not actually provide any constructive criticism, then you will receive a mod action. Everyone, please be wary of what you post.
Are you referring to my post? If you are, my point is absolutely not to bash anyone. It is a genuine question. I just detailed how I see things from an outsider perspective, and am really curious on what the insider perspective compares. I may be missing obvious point, but also, when you are too focused, you may skip some too. It's his job, he makes a living out of it, not me. Unless otherwise proven by me doing at least as much, he has a better experience than me, hence why I ask.
No, I was not referring to your post. We've been getting complaints that the CFT has been lacking moderation, so I was making a note for everyone to see.
If I was referring to your post, I would have quoted you.
I know that it was a general note. So quoting my post would have missed the point. I just asked to know if my last post was concerned or not, not specifically aimed at, in which case I know it would have been made clear.
On August 30 2018 22:18 Seeker wrote: The Caster Feedback Thread is not a place to needlessly bash casters. If your post does not actually provide any constructive criticism, then you will receive a mod action. Everyone, please be wary of what you post.
Are you referring to my post? If you are, my point is absolutely not to bash anyone. It is a genuine question. I just detailed how I see things from an outsider perspective, and am really curious on what the insider perspective compares. I may be missing obvious point, but also, when you are too focused, you may skip some too. It's his job, he makes a living out of it, not me. Unless otherwise proven by me doing at least as much, he has a better experience than me, hence why I ask.
No, I was not referring to your post. We've been getting complaints that the CFT has been lacking moderation, so I was making a note for everyone to see.
If I was referring to your post, I would have quoted you.
I know that it was a general note. So quoting my post would have missed the point. I just asked to know if my last post was concerned or not, not specifically aimed at, in which case I know it would have been made clear.
Your post was fine. I don't think that you have anything to worry about.
huge shoutout to Rifkin and BTTV for bringing in Ting as a 1-off, 1-time-only sponsor for 1 small event. And Then nurturing the relationship with Ting into something long term that makes Ting an important financial contributor to the SC2 esports scene.
On August 31 2018 00:58 DarraghSC2 wrote: Great casters - Apollo, Tastetosis, Day9, RotterDam, Maynarde
I have to say listening to Rifkin gets really really annoying BUT he is the creator of this content and it is totally up to him how he casts. If we dont like it we dont have to watch it. I still watch base trade regularly but yes it does get annoying to listen to the casters, derping out. We love this great game but when my GF hears some of the casters she's like ''Those people sound so annoying'' Sadly i agree. But again its their content they run the tournaments put a lot of work into it for sometimes nearly no money coming back. We should respect them
I really miss Apollo his breakdown of the builds it was great for helping us noob's how to learn the game.
Only thing i would ask Rifikin is to stop begging for subs all the time we are trying to watch the action, And making such cringe moments when casting with Zombie grub. Making jokes that a teenager would make. Its not cool man.
I have no problem whatsoever with Rifkin asking for subs, follows, and donations from generous fans. In fact, it bugs me when streamers don't do that because if they don't make money then they will eventually stop producing great content for my enjoyment. Some streamers are bad at self promotion, don't spell out their name clearly for all the social media they are on, and don't tell us their sponsors.
Rifkin has grown on me and has gotten better, and he's still a hero for all the events he puts on for us, but he still does the occasional cringey jokes about women/sex and it would be nice if he stopped that.
As has been mentioned repeatedly when discussing the business of Starcraft, this game has an older audience than most games. That means families are watching, men, women, kids, so it would be nice if more content creators kept it PG.
Regarding this years Blizzcon. Was it always like this? These ridiculous long breaks where every tournament is the most amazing ever? Come on: If you say that you thought IEM was the best tournament this year, but had 5 even more amazing events afterwards it gets borderline weird.
Also the pre-talk/after talk seems to just consist of praising each player excessively. (For example, when a player qualified, always: "he could very well win the whole thing" (obviously)).
I wouldn't mind longer analysis if they brought interesting things, but like this really makes me watch less. I would watch analysis if they sold a story line instead of hearing how both players being soo good.
What I could imagine would be like in Overwatch where they have a clear structure. List of things each player has to do to win the game. Maybe show replay to support the statements. Highlight key moments of the game after (yes they do that already, but mostly without optical support).
I thought the commentary for the WCS RO16 was very good. I liked how Tasteless sometimes explains the basics for people who only watch SC2 occasionally. I also like how Tasteless ramps up the excitement when calling the ending parts of games. He remains dignified and in control while also giving the winning moments the gravity they deserve.
On October 29 2018 23:27 DSh1 wrote: Regarding this years Blizzcon. Was it always like this? These ridiculous long breaks where every tournament is the most amazing ever? Come on: If you say that you thought IEM was the best tournament this year, but had 5 even more amazing events afterwards it gets borderline weird.
this is one of the most amazing posts i've ever read on TL. Great work! You are truly amazing and one of the greatest posters of all time!
On October 30 2018 01:47 MKStyles wrote: I don´t like Pig, His whole casting seems like a poor version of overhyping things like tastless does it. Even if he has knowledge it seems so wierd.
Let's not turn this into the Caster Bitching Thread again. This ain't quality feedback.
I love Pig, he s funny and acts like that s all he s about, but actually he s really knowledgeable about the game. After the obvious 4 i think he s the 5th best sc2 caster.
Actually, I do miss the GauntletSC2 guys - their chemistry was great and their commentary gave so much laughs that no others could deliver; not to mention a high quality production too!
On October 30 2018 01:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I thought the commentary for the WCS RO16 was very good. I liked how Tasteless sometimes explains the basics for people who only watch SC2 occasionally.
Yes I'm sure that the rest of the commentary team (Artosis excluded) are graeteful for that.
For Blizzcon commentary, with most of the foreigners eliminated, I hope that we can focus the discussion on actual analysis of the play and not sociological stuff going on with the players. I know that a lot of the commentators don't know much about SC2, nevermind watching GSL, so I hope they let Artosis lead the discussion.
Pig, Rotti, ToD, Incontrol are all GMs and know soooo much about sc2.
Artosis is obivously also up there, he just studies the game so much.
Maynarde and Tasteless know enough, but they aren't there for analysis obviously (despite that Maynarde improved greatly in that aspect, huge respect to him for learning the game and becoming a better player, it did not go unnoticed!). They are crucial for other reasons and bring the hype and tempo. Casters have different roles.
At BlizzCon we always have more new viewers than usual, so explaining basic stuff is also more important than ever. Overall they hit a nice balance I think and the casts are great imo. Sure there is some bias and they go a bit over the top sometimes when they hype certain players or storylines, but that's probably what Blizzard wants I guess.
I think tasteless gets more focus than he deserves for his "color" only cast, when its a role he chose to be at. He can be in the analytical role with no problem and he has been a consistent master protoss player since the release of the game, and he can probably still reach masters in korea easily. And he has been shown in alternative events capable of doing the game analysis, although I think that this day and age most analysis are weak compared to back then or I got way better and I dont value it much anymore I guess.
While I see this thread: I really hope they give Rifkin an offline cast this year, I know he isn't everyone cup of tea and that there is already a good number of other casters that are perhaps more suited to the WCS feel, but after 5 years of casting endless online cup and qualifier and putting on tournament they could really give him the spotlight one time. It's not gonna kill any one to have him 3-4 match in a WCS stop and the guy deserve it.
On January 10 2019 03:25 Nakajin wrote: While I see this thread: I really hope they give Rifkin an offline cast this year, I know he isn't everyone cup of tea and that there is already a good number of other casters that are perhaps more suited to the WCS feel, but after 5 years of casting endless online cup and qualifier and putting on tournament they could really give him the spotlight one time. It's not gonna kill any one to have him 3-4 match in a WCS stop and the guy deserve it.
Yeah no you seem to be implying that the only reason people don't like Rifkin is becaue "he isn't everyone's cup of tea" or that he isn't suited to WCS.
On January 10 2019 03:25 Nakajin wrote: While I see this thread: I really hope they give Rifkin an offline cast this year, I know he isn't everyone cup of tea and that there is already a good number of other casters that are perhaps more suited to the WCS feel, but after 5 years of casting endless online cup and qualifier and putting on tournament they could really give him the spotlight one time. It's not gonna kill any one to have him 3-4 match in a WCS stop and the guy deserve it.
Yeah no you seem to be implying that the only reason people don't like Rifkin is becaue "he isn't everyone's cup of tea" or that he isn't suited to WCS.
Meh I don't follow all the drama stuff. I know he has a habit to rant and make trouble with other people in the scene, but it's not like he is a child molester and he has always paid his player as far as I know. He's the only big english caster who has not have the chance to do offline cast, ZG-Wardi-Feardragon-Maynarde all got to cast WCS and he does have a good number of fans (I wouldn't necessarily say I'm one of them I don't really watch BTTV). Let's face it, we are probably closer to the end of WCS than the start and it would be nice to give one of the biggest personality, who did put an enormous amount of hours and money in the scene, a chance to have an offline cast before it's all over.
On January 10 2019 03:25 Nakajin wrote: While I see this thread: I really hope they give Rifkin an offline cast this year, I know he isn't everyone cup of tea and that there is already a good number of other casters that are perhaps more suited to the WCS feel, but after 5 years of casting endless online cup and qualifier and putting on tournament they could really give him the spotlight one time. It's not gonna kill any one to have him 3-4 match in a WCS stop and the guy deserve it.
Yeah no you seem to be implying that the only reason people don't like Rifkin is becaue "he isn't everyone's cup of tea" or that he isn't suited to WCS.
Meh I don't follow all the drama stuff. I know he has a habit to rant and make trouble with other people in the scene, but it's not like he is a child molester and he has always paid his player as far as I know. He's the only big english caster who has not have the chance to do offline cast, ZG-Wardi-Feardragon-Maynarde all got to cast WCS and he does have a good number of fans (I wouldn't necessarily say I'm one of them I don't really watch BTTV). Let's face it, we are probably closer to the end of WCS than the start and it would be nice to give one of the biggest personality, who did put an enormous amount of hours and money in the scene, a chance to have an offline cast before it's all over.
I agree with this, he definitely deserves it. I also think his casting is very decent even if it's of course not on Tastosis/Rotti level.
Which group is creighton? as i want to vote for him and Artosis. Creighton is well spoken and professional as well as knowledgeable and witty. personally i cant stand no regret. i can see he has a deep understanding of the game and whats happening , however his delivery is very poor and he is not well spoken, For example, NoRegret regularly throughout all of his says why is he doing this he should do this or if he does this he would be fine, which i believe to be poor delivery. Whereas Artosis would say "i dont know about this move out here" which brings excitement and hype or "the next step here for "Player name is to defend and move into a higher tech" (which also helps the new watchers of GSL)
But yes Tastosis is the ultimate caster however if there was to be a fill in i would 100% vote to Artosis and Creighton
(movig my comment here as per TL request to not have posts in recent GSL casters)
Ok, I really like the developing chemistry between Creighton and NoRegret but I have some honest critiques.
NoRegret needs to tone it back with calling outcomes before they happen. It's fine to do it on occasion, but NoRegret is rapid fire with these and when they're wrong it becomes really distracting from the game. Not saying he needs to STOP doing it, he just needs to tone it back.
Creighton, needs to just slow down. Slow down my man! I know you're nervous, I know you're excited, but CALM DOWN and let us actually understand you! I used to make this same mistake when I was casting, and I'd find myself tripping over my words and phrases and ending up sounding like a mumbling moron. Slow it down dude! Slow down your speech to about 70% of your current rate and your casting will improve in spades.
Overall though, I really dig the potential these two have. For how messy the games were and how messy the casting was tonight at parts, it was damn entertaining.
I gotta say Grant is doing very well as a caster. I like his casting quite a bit. It is unfortunate that his hiring drama is kind of overshadowing his debut a bit.
hmmm ..... I don't have any constructive feedback.
I came from bw on may 29th of this year, I feel the biggest thing I missed by sticking to only bw for all these years ... is the plethora of entertaining and insightful casters.
Thank all of you and a special thanks to those of you who work to keep your game knowledge current and share on stream.
Shoutout to Grant for doing a pretty good job at ASUS.
This was his first actual event right? I think the the biggest thing to work on for a future cast is to let the other commentator fill in some more. There was a few times where he over hyped potential momentum swings when analysis would have been better suited for the situation.
personally, i cant watch the noregret / cadenzie combo. its clear cadenzie knows what's shes talking about but her presentation is something i can't bear to watch. As for noregret, he's defensive towards other casters and just not funny.
On August 08 2019 18:53 GrandSmurf wrote: personally, i cant watch the noregret / cadenzie combo. its clear cadenzie knows what's shes talking about but her presentation is something i can't bear to watch. As for noregret, he's defensive towards other casters and just not funny.
I think they’re both fine individually, maybe not a great combo as their relative weaknesses overlap a bit and they have similar strengths.
One thing I hope for Blizzcon especially is let the analysts loose a bit and give them more of the downtime to break down games. Where games where won and lost, sick plays that maybe the observer even missed etc.
As it stands hosts admirably fill downtime but it often feels like time is just being killed rather than used well.
It also makes a space for those whose skillset is primarily in pure game knowledge to have a specialist role in productions.
NoRegret I think is a good bit better with more experience, to take one example, but there’d be times he’d be making some insightful point about the game flow and strategy, but something would happen somewhere that needed commented on and he’d be interrupted/talk over what was on screen.
You wouldn’t have these problems with an analyst desk writing notes as a game goes and then doing a more in depth recap in downtime.
OP here -- this thread was indeed made about Reid "Rapid" Melton, so it made things easier when it turned out he had some weird stuff towards women IRL.
On May 24 2022 21:25 ScrappyRabbit wrote: OP here -- this thread was indeed made about Reid "Rapid" Melton, so it made things easier when it turned out he had some weird stuff towards women IRL.
Lol I couldn't stand his casting either and always got weird vibes from him. His special endowment must have been stealing all the blood away from his brain
On May 25 2022 01:56 ejozl wrote: I like Rapid. I find it super annoying that the situation is such that now he doesn't get hired because of a harmless joke like this.
Iirc he had a habit of telling a weird sob story about how his dick was too big to like every woman he met in the industry. That's not a harmless joke, that's a pattern of creepy behavior. That shit is sexual harassment.
On May 25 2022 01:56 ejozl wrote: I like Rapid. I find it super annoying that the situation is such that now he doesn't get hired because of a harmless joke like this.
If it was a harmless joke he wouldn’t be blacklisted.
Oh noes, basic standards of behaviour for professionals.
On May 25 2022 01:56 ejozl wrote: I like Rapid. I find it super annoying that the situation is such that now he doesn't get hired because of a harmless joke like this.
I can make this a less upsetting bump by commenting on King of Battles.
Listening to the commentators being polite and friendly towards each other when they are talking at the same time was partly sweet and partly awkward. All parties backed down and apologised every time. "Oh, sorry!" "No, you go ahead!" Nice to see such a kind atmosphere! However, it took away a lot from the entertainment experience.
The final day had Artosis there alongside Beomulf. Beo started doing that polite thing but Artosis didn't play along. The entertainment experience grew and Beomulf adapted.
I was glad to see such kindness and politeness but I enjoyed the Artosis way more.
This might be an online thing. It's much easier not to talk across one another (and not be afraid of that) if you're in the same room and can see each other.
Definitely feedback for the recent ESL. Sadly, I had to give it a miss because Wardii was casting. I know I'm not alone on this, He's never been very well received, since the beginning. He has always lacked the enthusiasm for play-by-play, but also the game insight to do analysis. His old tournaments were a lot of silence mixed with incorrect interjections as he didn't allow any other casters as his goal was to promote himself and get a name in the community. He did succeed through perseverance which I think we all respect, but frankly he just doesn't have the play-by-play enthusiasm, analytical ability or just likability as a person to be a premier league caster. I couldn't put the ESL on around my girlfriend with Wardii casting because it could be embarrassing.
On May 25 2022 17:21 Drfilip wrote: I can make this a less upsetting bump by commenting on King of Battles.
Listening to the commentators being polite and friendly towards each other when they are talking at the same time was partly sweet and partly awkward. All parties backed down and apologised every time. "Oh, sorry!" "No, you go ahead!" Nice to see such a kind atmosphere! However, it took away a lot from the entertainment experience.
The final day had Artosis there alongside Beomulf. Beo started doing that polite thing but Artosis didn't play along. The entertainment experience grew and Beomulf adapted.
I was glad to see such kindness and politeness but I enjoyed the Artosis way more.
I am split about what I think about it.
I really like Beomulf, to the point where I find his vocal tic (if you play a drinking game where he says "on down," "on in," or something like that, you have 30 minutes to live), more endearing than anything else. I really like the new crop of casters we're getting from the AlphaXSC2 channel in general.
On May 26 2022 08:57 E-Volving wrote: Definitely feedback for the recent ESL. Sadly, I had to give it a miss because Wardii was casting. I know I'm not alone on this, He's never been very well received, since the beginning. He has always lacked the enthusiasm for play-by-play, but also the game insight to do analysis. His old tournaments were a lot of silence mixed with incorrect interjections as he didn't allow any other casters as his goal was to promote himself and get a name in the community. He did succeed through perseverance which I think we all respect, but frankly he just doesn't have the play-by-play enthusiasm, analytical ability or just likability as a person to be a premier league caster. I couldn't put the ESL on around my girlfriend with Wardii casting because it could be embarrassing.
Wardii's a guy I give a lot of respect to because he was cranking out a ton of content during the early stages of the pandemic, when we really needed it. I'm used to him solo casting on his Twitch/YT channel, so asking for subs/reading donations/standard Twitch stuff doesn't bother me. I will admit I'm not terribly familiar with him in a standard two-person booth. Also, he seems to have a weird insecurity about people bashing him, but as far as I know this is kinda the only thread like this, and it's been dormant for years. Is there a giant caster-bashing community in the SC Reddit community?
On May 26 2022 08:57 E-Volving wrote: Definitely feedback for the recent ESL. Sadly, I had to give it a miss because Wardii was casting. I know I'm not alone on this, He's never been very well received, since the beginning. He has always lacked the enthusiasm for play-by-play, but also the game insight to do analysis. His old tournaments were a lot of silence mixed with incorrect interjections as he didn't allow any other casters as his goal was to promote himself and get a name in the community. He did succeed through perseverance which I think we all respect, but frankly he just doesn't have the play-by-play enthusiasm, analytical ability or just likability as a person to be a premier league caster. I couldn't put the ESL on around my girlfriend with Wardii casting because it could be embarrassing.
Wardii's a guy I give a lot of respect to because he was cranking out a ton of content during the early stages of the pandemic, when we really needed it. I'm used to him solo casting on his Twitch/YT channel, so asking for subs/reading donations/standard Twitch stuff doesn't bother me. I will admit I'm not terribly familiar with him in a standard two-person booth. Also, he seems to have a weird insecurity about people bashing him, but as far as I know this is kinda the only thread like this, and it's been dormant for years. Is there a giant caster-bashing community in the SC Reddit community?
He’s a great figure for the good of the wider community, and 100% respect for the work he’s done there.
He’s just not a top tier caster, IMO, but that’s fine provided he’s partnered with someone who is
On May 25 2022 01:56 ejozl wrote: I like Rapid. I find it super annoying that the situation is such that now he doesn't get hired because of a harmless joke like this.
If it was a harmless joke he wouldn’t be blacklisted.
Oh noes, basic standards of behaviour for professionals.
Well, I think my issue is then that the industry is too sensitive. I think we don't often see organizations standing up for people who are catching flack from the community.
As for Waardi, I think he really improved a ton and I've come to enjoy his casting at premier events. For his regular casts I do mute him though, as so to have other stuff on.
On May 25 2022 01:56 ejozl wrote: I like Rapid. I find it super annoying that the situation is such that now he doesn't get hired because of a harmless joke like this.
If it was a harmless joke he wouldn’t be blacklisted.
Oh noes, basic standards of behaviour for professionals.
Well, I think my issue is then that the industry is too sensitive. I think we don't often see organizations standing up for people who are catching flack from the community.
As for Waardi, I think he really improved a ton and I've come to enjoy his casting at premier events. For his regular casts I do mute him though, as so to have other stuff on.
Yeah he’s good when he’s paired with a good analyst, especially when the chemistry is good.
I’m not sure what the industry should do here, as it stands there’s already some talented casters who’ve left the scene as there’s not enough gigs to go around. A fair few of the names mentioned in this thread no longer cast SC2 for this very reason.
Why would I hire someone who’s been accused of sexual harassment in and around events? By multiple people.
I don’t agree with a witch hunt for anyone making a joke that didn’t land or w/e, that’s not really what occurred in this instance
Bumping this to give some (overdue) love to State, he had some absolutely massive shoes to fill at GSL and I thought he did a great job. I'm not sure we needed another Protoss player, but that seems to be the race of choice for casters.
It is always nice to get the POV of someone who played at an extremely high level -- even if State wasn't a high-level pro or playing many televised games, the level he reached is still fairly unfathomable for the average, or even "good" gamer.
His game knowledge was really good. By his own admission, he was less comfortable in matchups that didn't involve a Protoss, but it seems like he's going to be working on that and he still had a good idea of what was going on in the matchups that, in his own words, "aren't his forte."
His chemistry with Tasteless was great -- he keeps things professional without being too glum, has a good sense of humor without trying to make himself the star of the show, and has a good sense of when to go off on a tangent and when to keep the focus on the action. Long live Stateless!
Elsewhere, I've recently been getting into PiG's solo cast stream and his game knowledge is absolutely spooky at this point. If he's doing some sort of Bear Grylls thing where he's watching the replays ahead of time and pretending to watch them fresh, I would be legitimately heartbroken. (I don't think he's doing that, for the record, but he's just that darn good at reading the SC2 meta right now. Also, he's the first commenter I can remember who really points out details I would have missed, like specific army positionings and macro mistakes. The latter has been particularly enlightening, I'd actually love to see him retro-cast some games when Inno was in his absolute prime to really point out how his macro allowed him to be so dominant.
The job Wardii has been doing as a content creator alone deserves a ton of credit, he's just been an absolutely crucial part of the scene when the scene was struggling.
Finally, I got into ASL for the first time during the GSL hiatus and really enjoyed it. I'll keep it brief because this is an SC2 forum, but kind of amazing how Artosis is my favorite SC2 caster of all time when he so clearly loves Brood War more and is noticeably more on top of the meta for that game. Man's got talent.
EPT
:D
awh the long posts...
" style 
) ...
"messieurs les anglais.. tirez les premiers!"*
