On March 04 2017 21:39 Railgan wrote: Mech is definitly viable. What do you guys want? To build some tanks thors hellions and just autowin?
To a certain degree, yes.
We want to be able to have a chance at winning with mostly fact units with some air as support, not backwards.
so like when I believe Innovation won a bo5/bo7 vs dark without buillding a starport?
inno was first who tried mech vs dark on top level back then and it was just for the surprise effect and he stop after this even after he won lol, he also said that mech is bad, even snute said that he haven't lose a single game vs mech with swarmhosts.
He hasn't lost a single game vs mech with SH because even though it's a known counter to that style of play, mech players don't make any efforts to do anything about them aside from complain on forums.
Wrong. It's because mech is unplayable right now due to swarmhosts and a myriad of other reasons.
You can play "mech" aka making mass ravens. That's about it. On the current swarmhost patch, if you go "mech" you autolose to free units most of the time.
On March 04 2017 21:39 Railgan wrote: Mech is definitly viable. What do you guys want? To build some tanks thors hellions and just autowin?
To a certain degree, yes.
We want to be able to have a chance at winning with mostly fact units with some air as support, not backwards.
so like when I believe Innovation won a bo5/bo7 vs dark without buillding a starport?
inno was first who tried mech vs dark on top level back then and it was just for the surprise effect and he stop after this even after he won lol, he also said that mech is bad, even snute said that he haven't lose a single game vs mech with swarmhosts.
He hasn't lost a single game vs mech with SH because even though it's a known counter to that style of play, mech players don't make any efforts to do anything about them aside from complain on forums.
Wrong. It's because mech is unplayable right now due to swarmhosts and a myriad of other reasons.
You can play "mech" aka making mass ravens. That's about it. On the current swarmhost patch, if you go "mech" you autolose to free units most of the time.
Hellions and Cyclones aren't Mechanical units? TIL. Thanks for letting me know.
On March 04 2017 21:39 Railgan wrote: Mech is definitly viable. What do you guys want? To build some tanks thors hellions and just autowin?
To a certain degree, yes.
We want to be able to have a chance at winning with mostly fact units with some air as support, not backwards.
so like when I believe Innovation won a bo5/bo7 vs dark without buillding a starport?
inno was first who tried mech vs dark on top level back then and it was just for the surprise effect and he stop after this even after he won lol, he also said that mech is bad, even snute said that he haven't lose a single game vs mech with swarmhosts.
He hasn't lost a single game vs mech with SH because even though it's a known counter to that style of play, mech players don't make any efforts to do anything about them aside from complain on forums.
Wrong. It's because mech is unplayable right now due to swarmhosts and a myriad of other reasons.
You can play "mech" aka making mass ravens. That's about it. On the current swarmhost patch, if you go "mech" you autolose to free units most of the time.
Hellions and Cyclones aren't Mechanical units? TIL. Thanks for letting me know.
100% irrelevant units if the Zerg knows what the swarmhost is.
On March 04 2017 11:28 xTJx wrote: Hey guys, i share your concerns. As a proud zerg i wanna go ling bane muta every single game, but sometimes protoss builds those op phoenixes that kill my mutas easily, so i'm here to ask Blizzard to remove them from the game ASAP, because LBM not viable.
Actually you try to make this whole topic sound totally pathetic, but what you really do is remind everyone that Zergs and Protoss players have been asking for specific unit compositions themselves for a while now. Zerg wanted LBM in TvZ to work again. After the Lib nerf more and more LBM is being played. And since the WM has received the current shield damage, Zealot-Archon has been unplayable and Protoss players have been asking for it. So your sarcasm is actually the truth, but hey, double standards are cool.
The whole community agreed that turtle until 8 amor ultra was just a bad game design, and that liberators countering everything in the air was dumb, we never asked blizzard to remove every counter to ling bane muta, as you mechers do.
Mutas were hard countered by Libs quite badly and Zergs started asking for a nerf cuz that unit was basically useless. Do not even try to sell any fairytails here.
Zergs asked for 1 unit to have a damage nerf. Mechers ask for nerf on: Nydus, Viper, SH, Hydra, every air unit in the game and doomdrops.
Can you see just a bit of difference? We asked for a nerf so we could defend drops, mechers want to change the whole game just to sit there and build an unstoppable army.
From reading through forums Zerg players are asking for nerfs of: Marines, widow mines, medivacs, reapers, ravens and liberators.
On March 04 2017 21:39 Railgan wrote: Mech is definitly viable. What do you guys want? To build some tanks thors hellions and just autowin?
To a certain degree, yes.
We want to be able to have a chance at winning with mostly fact units with some air as support, not backwards.
so like when I believe Innovation won a bo5/bo7 vs dark without buillding a starport?
inno was first who tried mech vs dark on top level back then and it was just for the surprise effect and he stop after this even after he won lol, he also said that mech is bad, even snute said that he haven't lose a single game vs mech with swarmhosts.
He hasn't lost a single game vs mech with SH because even though it's a known counter to that style of play, mech players don't make any efforts to do anything about them aside from complain on forums.
Wrong. It's because mech is unplayable right now due to swarmhosts and a myriad of other reasons.
You can play "mech" aka making mass ravens. That's about it. On the current swarmhost patch, if you go "mech" you autolose to free units most of the time.
Hellions and Cyclones aren't Mechanical units? TIL. Thanks for letting me know.
100% irrelevant units if the Zerg knows what the swarmhost is.
Irrelevant units? We are talking about Mechanical units, and SH don't hard counter Hellions and Cyclones, especially in the early-mid game, they hard counter a turtling Terran player relying on Planetary Fortresses and Siege Tanks in the mid-late game who also doesn't use their army to attack into a Zerg player and get serious damage done.
I'd also like to point to everyone keeping track, you've, once again, decided to dismiss everything other people are saying about your opinions and "facts" and use the "you're wrong, I'm right, I don't need to actually have a conversation about this" strategy, which, in a serious discussion, this massive amount of intolerance for real information and critical thinking should be completely ignored.
If you seriously want to have this discussion, I'd love to have it, I've been trying to have it, yet you try pretty darn hard not to have a discussion at all, which is the purpose of these forums.
On March 04 2017 11:28 xTJx wrote: Hey guys, i share your concerns. As a proud zerg i wanna go ling bane muta every single game, but sometimes protoss builds those op phoenixes that kill my mutas easily, so i'm here to ask Blizzard to remove them from the game ASAP, because LBM not viable.
Actually you try to make this whole topic sound totally pathetic, but what you really do is remind everyone that Zergs and Protoss players have been asking for specific unit compositions themselves for a while now. Zerg wanted LBM in TvZ to work again. After the Lib nerf more and more LBM is being played. And since the WM has received the current shield damage, Zealot-Archon has been unplayable and Protoss players have been asking for it. So your sarcasm is actually the truth, but hey, double standards are cool.
The whole community agreed that turtle until 8 amor ultra was just a bad game design, and that liberators countering everything in the air was dumb, we never asked blizzard to remove every counter to ling bane muta, as you mechers do.
Mutas were hard countered by Libs quite badly and Zergs started asking for a nerf cuz that unit was basically useless. Do not even try to sell any fairytails here.
Zergs asked for 1 unit to have a damage nerf. Mechers ask for nerf on: Nydus, Viper, SH, Hydra, every air unit in the game and doomdrops.
Can you see just a bit of difference? We asked for a nerf so we could defend drops, mechers want to change the whole game just to sit there and build an unstoppable army.
From reading through forums Zerg players are asking for nerfs of: Marines, widow mines, medivacs, reapers, ravens and liberators.
Terran players ask for Reapers and Medivac and Raven changes, and Protoss players ask for Widow Mine, Reaper, Raven, Siege Tank, and Liberator changes as well.
On March 04 2017 11:28 xTJx wrote: Hey guys, i share your concerns. As a proud zerg i wanna go ling bane muta every single game, but sometimes protoss builds those op phoenixes that kill my mutas easily, so i'm here to ask Blizzard to remove them from the game ASAP, because LBM not viable.
Actually you try to make this whole topic sound totally pathetic, but what you really do is remind everyone that Zergs and Protoss players have been asking for specific unit compositions themselves for a while now. Zerg wanted LBM in TvZ to work again. After the Lib nerf more and more LBM is being played. And since the WM has received the current shield damage, Zealot-Archon has been unplayable and Protoss players have been asking for it. So your sarcasm is actually the truth, but hey, double standards are cool.
The whole community agreed that turtle until 8 amor ultra was just a bad game design, and that liberators countering everything in the air was dumb, we never asked blizzard to remove every counter to ling bane muta, as you mechers do.
Mutas were hard countered by Libs quite badly and Zergs started asking for a nerf cuz that unit was basically useless. Do not even try to sell any fairytails here.
Zergs asked for 1 unit to have a damage nerf. Mechers ask for nerf on: Nydus, Viper, SH, Hydra, every air unit in the game and doomdrops.
Can you see just a bit of difference? We asked for a nerf so we could defend drops, mechers want to change the whole game just to sit there and build an unstoppable army.
I can understand the Viper. And you can feel the cloud nerf influence. But neither the hydra nor the Nydus has been an issue. Almost noone is using nydus. What are you talking about? The SH is a complete design failure since it was introduced. It has not become any better. Also now suddenly you do say that Zergs asked for a nerf to make a unit viable. What are you gonna tell me next?
So, this discussion starded saying that because Blizzard nerfed some terran units to make a protoss unit comp and mutas viable, the same should be done to make mech "viable". But then you say you don't want none of the nerfs i mentioned, so what do you want?
On March 04 2017 21:39 Railgan wrote: Mech is definitly viable. What do you guys want? To build some tanks thors hellions and just autowin?
To a certain degree, yes.
We want to be able to have a chance at winning with mostly fact units with some air as support, not backwards.
so like when I believe Innovation won a bo5/bo7 vs dark without buillding a starport?
inno was first who tried mech vs dark on top level back then and it was just for the surprise effect and he stop after this even after he won lol, he also said that mech is bad, even snute said that he haven't lose a single game vs mech with swarmhosts.
He hasn't lost a single game vs mech with SH because even though it's a known counter to that style of play, mech players don't make any efforts to do anything about them aside from complain on forums.
Wrong. It's because mech is unplayable right now due to swarmhosts and a myriad of other reasons.
You can play "mech" aka making mass ravens. That's about it. On the current swarmhost patch, if you go "mech" you autolose to free units most of the time.
Hellions and Cyclones aren't Mechanical units? TIL. Thanks for letting me know.
100% irrelevant units if the Zerg knows what the swarmhost is.
On March 04 2017 11:28 xTJx wrote: Hey guys, i share your concerns. As a proud zerg i wanna go ling bane muta every single game, but sometimes protoss builds those op phoenixes that kill my mutas easily, so i'm here to ask Blizzard to remove them from the game ASAP, because LBM not viable.
Actually you try to make this whole topic sound totally pathetic, but what you really do is remind everyone that Zergs and Protoss players have been asking for specific unit compositions themselves for a while now. Zerg wanted LBM in TvZ to work again. After the Lib nerf more and more LBM is being played. And since the WM has received the current shield damage, Zealot-Archon has been unplayable and Protoss players have been asking for it. So your sarcasm is actually the truth, but hey, double standards are cool.
The whole community agreed that turtle until 8 amor ultra was just a bad game design, and that liberators countering everything in the air was dumb, we never asked blizzard to remove every counter to ling bane muta, as you mechers do.
Mutas were hard countered by Libs quite badly and Zergs started asking for a nerf cuz that unit was basically useless. Do not even try to sell any fairytails here.
Zergs asked for 1 unit to have a damage nerf. Mechers ask for nerf on: Nydus, Viper, SH, Hydra, every air unit in the game and doomdrops.
Can you see just a bit of difference? We asked for a nerf so we could defend drops, mechers want to change the whole game just to sit there and build an unstoppable army.
From reading through forums Zerg players are asking for nerfs of: Marines, widow mines, medivacs, reapers, ravens and liberators.
Maybe the low level players. Most just asked for the insane lib AA nerf and reaper grenade nerf.
If there's still any question about the viability of mech play in the current state of LotV, I would like to present a glorious video from a Terran player by the name of Polt, with fantastically entertaining and intelligent commentary, which he played on the Korean ladder at the Grand Master (90) level and features a spectacular amount of Mechanical units, notably Hellions and Siege Tanks, a transition into Battlecruisers, as well as a large number of Swarm Hosts from his opponent throughout:
On March 04 2017 11:28 xTJx wrote: Hey guys, i share your concerns. As a proud zerg i wanna go ling bane muta every single game, but sometimes protoss builds those op phoenixes that kill my mutas easily, so i'm here to ask Blizzard to remove them from the game ASAP, because LBM not viable.
Actually you try to make this whole topic sound totally pathetic, but what you really do is remind everyone that Zergs and Protoss players have been asking for specific unit compositions themselves for a while now. Zerg wanted LBM in TvZ to work again. After the Lib nerf more and more LBM is being played. And since the WM has received the current shield damage, Zealot-Archon has been unplayable and Protoss players have been asking for it. So your sarcasm is actually the truth, but hey, double standards are cool.
The whole community agreed that turtle until 8 amor ultra was just a bad game design, and that liberators countering everything in the air was dumb, we never asked blizzard to remove every counter to ling bane muta, as you mechers do.
Mutas were hard countered by Libs quite badly and Zergs started asking for a nerf cuz that unit was basically useless. Do not even try to sell any fairytails here.
Zergs asked for 1 unit to have a damage nerf. Mechers ask for nerf on: Nydus, Viper, SH, Hydra, every air unit in the game and doomdrops.
Can you see just a bit of difference? We asked for a nerf so we could defend drops, mechers want to change the whole game just to sit there and build an unstoppable army.
I can understand the Viper. And you can feel the cloud nerf influence. But neither the hydra nor the Nydus has been an issue. Almost noone is using nydus. What are you talking about? The SH is a complete design failure since it was introduced. It has not become any better. Also now suddenly you do say that Zergs asked for a nerf to make a unit viable. What are you gonna tell me next?
So, this discussion starded saying that because Blizzard nerfed some terran units to make a protoss unit comp and mutas viable, the same should be done to make mech "viable". But then you say you don't want none of the nerfs i mentioned, so what do you want?
No mate, you do not get it. Let me repeat it for you: Ppl say "Why do mech players keep demanding nerf/ buff to certain units in order to make mech viable? Play with what you have, mech is not rquired to exist." Now, what I am saying is that Zergs and Protoss do the same. Some ppl just lack self reflection.
On March 05 2017 13:42 shadymmj wrote: the problem here is that many people think mech = turtle therefore mech bad
what we are really trying to figure out is how to make mech a viable alternative playstyle that doesnt involve camping in your base for 30 mins
I always assumed ppl wanted mech to work like it did in BW. To do that you have to change the economics/mechanics of the game so that its way harder to get to max supply.
On March 04 2017 06:10 IMplying wrote: Back in the introduction of the re-design DK said "For Terran, our primary focus is on improving the viability of Factory unit armies—popularly known as ‘Mech’ compositions.". They even gave the Tempest an ability to counter Mech, which suggested that they thought Mech was going to be a thing in TvP.
However nothing ever came out of this, they never tried any Mech changes after the initial patch, which obviously wasn't enough. Except for a few examples you never see Mech at the top level.
Every Terran game I watch has units from all three buildings.
Why would Blizz want to make people stop using 2/3 of their production options?
On March 04 2017 06:10 IMplying wrote: Back in the introduction of the re-design DK said "For Terran, our primary focus is on improving the viability of Factory unit armies—popularly known as ‘Mech’ compositions.". They even gave the Tempest an ability to counter Mech, which suggested that they thought Mech was going to be a thing in TvP.
However nothing ever came out of this, they never tried any Mech changes after the initial patch, which obviously wasn't enough. Except for a few examples you never see Mech at the top level.
Every Terran game I watch has units from all three buildings.
Why would Blizz want to make people stop using 2/3 of their production options?
People with low skill level love 20 min no rush mono battles, and this applies to any game . Take the game Forged Alliance Forever for example , the low level games are on maps with tight chokes with low unit diversity, where you can sit back and defend with ease until the game is ready to be ended You could call it "tactical" gameplay but the fact is its bloody horrible to play and ultimately boring
Anyone whom pushes Mech agenda in SC2 is a low apm player with limited skillset. This is why it will never get the buffs they want, because the Korean Pros would combine it with Bio to create Bio/Mech
SC2 and Broodwar are completely different games as Broodwar as you know had vastly inferior Bio units so Terran was forced to go Mech
I just wish TL would lock these threads as soon as they appear as they stink the General section out, on Reddit it would be downvoted to oblivion so fast you wouldn't even see it
Edit :- if memory serves me correct the mandate for a profession game in SC2 at release was supposed to be about 20 minutes in length . This would be impossible with Cancer Mechplay, I wish i could find the statements by Blizzard during the Beta to confirm this
On March 05 2017 09:59 blunderfulguy wrote: If there's still any question about the viability of mech play in the current state of LotV, I would like to present a glorious video from a Terran player by the name of Polt, with fantastically entertaining and intelligent commentary, which he played on the Korean ladder at the Grand Master (90) level and features a spectacular amount of Mechanical units, notably Hellions and Siege Tanks, a transition into Battlecruisers, as well as a large number of Swarm Hosts from his opponent throughout:
Horrible, horrible exemple. The guy he played was terrible at playing against mech. Every way he used his units was wrong : - He tried to break a tank hellbat push with SH/roaches/ravagers by sending the locusts without attacking with the rest of his army - no micro whatsoever of the locusts all landing on hellbats. A good zerg player splits his locusts for 5-6 of them to land on each tank - he threw parasitic bombs on BCs instead of abducting (60 damage on a 500 health unit is pointless)
Even on my ladder zergs use their units better than this guy.
So as i said, that's an exemple you can only use if you know nothing about how to play against mech. Using the exemple that polt wrecked some no name zerg who can't even use his units right to say mech is in a fine place is like saying that because i lost against Stats playing bio without researching stim, protoss is OP.
On March 04 2017 11:28 xTJx wrote: Hey guys, i share your concerns. As a proud zerg i wanna go ling bane muta every single game, but sometimes protoss builds those op phoenixes that kill my mutas easily, so i'm here to ask Blizzard to remove them from the game ASAP, because LBM not viable.
Actually you try to make this whole topic sound totally pathetic, but what you really do is remind everyone that Zergs and Protoss players have been asking for specific unit compositions themselves for a while now. Zerg wanted LBM in TvZ to work again. After the Lib nerf more and more LBM is being played. And since the WM has received the current shield damage, Zealot-Archon has been unplayable and Protoss players have been asking for it. So your sarcasm is actually the truth, but hey, double standards are cool.
The whole community agreed that turtle until 8 amor ultra was just a bad game design, and that liberators countering everything in the air was dumb, we never asked blizzard to remove every counter to ling bane muta, as you mechers do.
Mutas were hard countered by Libs quite badly and Zergs started asking for a nerf cuz that unit was basically useless. Do not even try to sell any fairytails here.
Zergs asked for 1 unit to have a damage nerf. Mechers ask for nerf on: Nydus, Viper, SH, Hydra, every air unit in the game and doomdrops.
Can you see just a bit of difference? We asked for a nerf so we could defend drops, mechers want to change the whole game just to sit there and build an unstoppable army.
From reading through forums Zerg players are asking for nerfs of: Marines, widow mines, medivacs, reapers, ravens and liberators.
Maybe the low level players. Most just asked for the insane lib AA nerf and reaper grenade nerf.
not every mech player is complaining about all the units you've listed either. Most just ask for a SH nerf.
EPT
