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On March 14 2017 01:21 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2017 00:13 intotheheart wrote:
That being said I think Gumiho's one of the better mech players, no? Or at least he's the one that's tried it probably more than most of the other Terrans. Show nested quote +On March 14 2017 00:24 Elentos wrote:
He beat soO in a bo5 4 days ago with only mech. From what remember Soo played really poorly against gumiho's mech (stupid compositions, loosing way too much to simple hellion harass). And, most of all, like every KR zerg player but Rogue or Leenock, he didn't build any swarmhosts. But i watched it half asleep so if i'm wrong feel free to correct me. The only three reasons why we see TvZ mech at the top KR level is because : - they synergize well with cheesy builds (Ryung vs leenock in the GSL, fast range liberator build), so they can be used as a map specific cheese - most KR zergs don't seem to be used to play against mech (lack of scouting, still going for a fast third with mass queens speedlings then go for +1/+1 melee then go for T2 tech, playing the HOTS meta with roach hydras into very fast vipers, etc...) - most KR zergs don't build swarm hosts against mech If you look the EU and NA scene, no one plays mech. Saying mech is perfectly fine and viable right now would be like saying forge expand is viable in PvT because KR pros can pull it off after a sucessfull canon rush. I'm not saying mech can"t be strong against zerg right now, i'm saying it's not viable. As in : there's no meta, no stages of the game, the few sucessfull mech plays we see at GSL/top KR levels are based on cheeses and the fact that zergs weren't really confronted to mech so they don't know what to do. Show nested quote +On March 14 2017 00:44 Lexender wrote:
Making mech viable vs toss wouldn't hurt, the last time I saw someone try was 2014 (not counting LotV beta with mass cyclones). Actually i think that the only matchup where mech is truely viable right now is TvP. I've played mech in TvP most of the time since 3.8 (even beat Nightend and WhiteRa with mech play), and i haven't really seen any toss composition that really invalidates mech. - tempests are much more of an investment, and thors have similar range. So if you have some amount of thors in your army you can push out when you scout the SG transition. - immortals are now much more suceptible to siege tanks shots, and cyclones can burst them down too if they're exposed. So now you can actually do focus fire with your siege tanks - cyclones, tanks and vikings are now much stronger against blink stalkers, which were one of the real reasons mech was terrible against toss in the past - ranged liberators can invalidate compositions that rely too heavily on disruptors - the thor's increased AoE, and in some way the cyclone and the raven's auto turret can allow the mech player to push against carriers when the transition is scouted - BCs can wreck carriers with yamato, and can "allin" tempests with the jump into yamato However, phenixes openers "straight into carriers" are still an issue. The fact that you can't ever push out against a toss that goes for phenixes, and the fact that not pushing out against early carriers is kind of a death sentence unless you wanna turtle REALLY hard into BCs, really makes me wonder if mech can deal with it. But that could be adjusted later if we see mech buils against toss getting shut down by that.
Today soO didn't make Swarmhost either and won 3:0 with Gumiho. You say that few days ago he lost to Gumiho's mech in bo5. Well, seems like mech is in balanced state.
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On March 14 2017 00:06 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2017 22:54 Poopi wrote:
Pros don't win equally skilled opponents with mech in TvX (x!=T) tho, Gumiho got crushed by soO as well when trying mech. soO would most likely crush Gumiho with any composition, Gumiho is hardly a top of the line Terran
What? Gumiho is pretty on form right now!
Better than soO on aligulac to start.
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On March 14 2017 01:29 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2017 01:21 JackONeill wrote:On March 14 2017 00:13 intotheheart wrote:
That being said I think Gumiho's one of the better mech players, no? Or at least he's the one that's tried it probably more than most of the other Terrans. On March 14 2017 00:24 Elentos wrote:
He beat soO in a bo5 4 days ago with only mech. From what remember Soo played really poorly against gumiho's mech (stupid compositions, loosing way too much to simple hellion harass). And, most of all, like every KR zerg player but Rogue or Leenock, he didn't build any swarmhosts. But i watched it half asleep so if i'm wrong feel free to correct me. The only three reasons why we see TvZ mech at the top KR level is because : - they synergize well with cheesy builds (Ryung vs leenock in the GSL, fast range liberator build), so they can be used as a map specific cheese - most KR zergs don't seem to be used to play against mech (lack of scouting, still going for a fast third with mass queens speedlings then go for +1/+1 melee then go for T2 tech, playing the HOTS meta with roach hydras into very fast vipers, etc...) - most KR zergs don't build swarm hosts against mech If you look the EU and NA scene, no one plays mech. Saying mech is perfectly fine and viable right now would be like saying forge expand is viable in PvT because KR pros can pull it off after a sucessfull canon rush. I'm not saying mech can"t be strong against zerg right now, i'm saying it's not viable. As in : there's no meta, no stages of the game, the few sucessfull mech plays we see at GSL/top KR levels are based on cheeses and the fact that zergs weren't really confronted to mech so they don't know what to do. On March 14 2017 00:44 Lexender wrote:
Making mech viable vs toss wouldn't hurt, the last time I saw someone try was 2014 (not counting LotV beta with mass cyclones). Actually i think that the only matchup where mech is truely viable right now is TvP. I've played mech in TvP most of the time since 3.8 (even beat Nightend and WhiteRa with mech play), and i haven't really seen any toss composition that really invalidates mech. - tempests are much more of an investment, and thors have similar range. So if you have some amount of thors in your army you can push out when you scout the SG transition. - immortals are now much more suceptible to siege tanks shots, and cyclones can burst them down too if they're exposed. So now you can actually do focus fire with your siege tanks - cyclones, tanks and vikings are now much stronger against blink stalkers, which were one of the real reasons mech was terrible against toss in the past - ranged liberators can invalidate compositions that rely too heavily on disruptors - the thor's increased AoE, and in some way the cyclone and the raven's auto turret can allow the mech player to push against carriers when the transition is scouted - BCs can wreck carriers with yamato, and can "allin" tempests with the jump into yamato However, phenixes openers "straight into carriers" are still an issue. The fact that you can't ever push out against a toss that goes for phenixes, and the fact that not pushing out against early carriers is kind of a death sentence unless you wanna turtle REALLY hard into BCs, really makes me wonder if mech can deal with it. But that could be adjusted later if we see mech buils against toss getting shut down by that. Today soO didn't make Swarmhost either and won 3:0 with Gumiho. You say that few days ago he lost to Gumiho's mech in bo5. Well, seems like mech is in balanced state.
At least don't spread wrong information. SH were made.
Gumiho didn't play that well tho.
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So now the fact that top level Koreans are using Mech successfully against other top level Koreans is proof that Mech is bad?
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What should be judged bad or good, is how blizzard decides to spend there time, and thereafter talk to their community. With grandeur they profess future plans at a blizzcon event, to add value to that cash rake. then after control a narrative of their progress - as they see fit.
good PR and transparency can be seen in a company like CIG making SC (Star Citizen). their method solidifies their backers dollar to a substantiated level. and the community is rich from it. The communities are responsive in all areas and the game is on a level, and its pipeline network is on a level, that will wash away other frames of development that have lingered on half built structures.
SC2 had the premise for a great narrative but the entire story is bogged down by a story written for the very emotional childlike fan. A petty emotional grab to drive the stories theme. They employed a bunch of people and time on visual production in the wrong areas of "player" interest for way too long. players get to watch a colossus do one animation swing back n forth for 10years Weee. hardcore development. The game could have saved money in story production and cut a cheaper budget film on old tech, and controlled well thought out work, that was done on the game(gameplay key user interests as they'd receive from beta testing phases)instead of a story and design made for people with no requirement for imagination. boring story mixed with ~~~a single player exp worth an RTS fans time.. A burnout moment for anyone that considers how they purposely, tell you people how to act, Be nice in the forums, only constructive criticism, damnit you're all so positive keep it up bros. The PR polish glistens with arrogance...
Petty to see how these fans in typical are ready to be argumentative its like a 3way brawl.. not even blizzard or the players or the (victims), dont give no **f**s, not enough to get the job done. blizzard dont give no **f**s we dont actually give no **f**s, cus theres real life, and then for a very tiny fraction of the human population very very tiny fraction; this game is their life. additionally liars will settle on saying this is their life too, but mainly just to folly about without making something of themselves from the cesspool middle and lower class that we all live in.
Someone advocating but not taking action is just a dog on a leash. Blizzard likes it that way. controllable for them. However, I mean if people want to backwards engineer a pvp server for their own fun. Blizzard will shut you the **f** down because its outside their TOS. strictly business.
As usual.
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If Gumiho doesn't beat the best zerg in the world, GSL semi-finalist, with mech and 100% of the time, it means it's not viable guys.
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On March 14 2017 03:05 xTJx wrote:
If Gumiho doesn't beat the best zerg in the world, GSL semi-finalist, with mech and 100% of the time, it means it's not viable guys.
Somehow the fact that viability means "Wins half the time" is lost on mech proponents...
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On March 14 2017 03:30 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2017 03:05 xTJx wrote:
If Gumiho doesn't beat the best zerg in the world, GSL semi-finalist, with mech and 100% of the time, it means it's not viable guys. Somehow the fact that viability means "Wins half the time" is lost on mech proponents...
Obviously Soo is a scrub and is not indicative of how strong the online Zergs are. #WhyDoTheseThreadsExist
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On March 14 2017 03:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
#WhyDoTheseThreadsExist
It's not April yet! Get ready for more!
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On March 14 2017 03:41 Jealous wrote:It's not April yet! Get ready for more!
I bet Blizzard's april fools joke this year is going to be a noticable zerg buff.
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On March 14 2017 03:42 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2017 03:41 Jealous wrote:On March 14 2017 03:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
#WhyDoTheseThreadsExist It's not April yet! Get ready for more! I bet Blizzard's april fools joke this year is going to be a noticable zerg buff.
It would be great if they released an actual patch that gave Mech users everything they ever wanted, but just for one day. That would be glorious.
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On March 14 2017 03:44 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2017 03:42 InfCereal wrote:On March 14 2017 03:41 Jealous wrote:On March 14 2017 03:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
#WhyDoTheseThreadsExist It's not April yet! Get ready for more! I bet Blizzard's april fools joke this year is going to be a noticable zerg buff. It would be great if they released an actual patch that gave Mech users everything they ever wanted, but just for one day. That would be glorious.
They could easily just roll out the build that had the Warhound.
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On March 14 2017 03:44 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2017 03:42 InfCereal wrote:On March 14 2017 03:41 Jealous wrote:On March 14 2017 03:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
#WhyDoTheseThreadsExist It's not April yet! Get ready for more! I bet Blizzard's april fools joke this year is going to be a noticable zerg buff. It would be great if they released an actual patch that gave Mech users everything they ever wanted, but just for one day. That would be glorious.
You mean just nerfing the raven and the SH.
Oh yes such big game changing patch.
/s
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I want to ask a better question:
Where was the redesign they promised? The game is pretty much the same, except blinking dts and even more worker harass, with cancerous units such as ravens and swarmhosts being buffed. I was excited about the "redesign", but those things aren't enough to make me play the game again.
I am not even sure I want Blizzard to make mech viable. First of all I doubt "real" mech (Brood War) is possible due to the nature of this game. Second of all I doubt even more that Blizzards most incompetent team is capable of making their deathball clump mech fun to play/play against.
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On March 14 2017 06:29 404AlphaSquad wrote:
I want to ask a better question:
Where was the redesign they promised? The game is pretty much the same, except blinking dts and even more worker harass, with cancerous units such as ravens and swarmhosts being buffed. I was excited about the "redesign", but those things aren't enough to make me play the game again.
I am not even sure I want Blizzard to make mech viable. First of all I doubt "real" mech (Brood War) is possible due to the nature of this game. Second of all I doubt even more that Blizzards most incompetent team is capable of making their deathball clump mech fun to play/play against.
Are you asking why one or more top level Korean players playing in the highest level of competition is able to break even with his peers using primarily Mech?
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The way I see it, there are two different discussions to be had.
1) Design: whether the game is designed in a way that makes it fun to play (for casuals/top-tier full time professionals and people in-between), fun to watch etc.
2) Balance: whether the game is balanced between the races - there are many things to consider when talking about balance: maps, what kind of level of execution/control/mechanics is deemed consistently achievable by humans (of course if StarCraft were balanced around how well Marines can be controlled by bots, Marines would have to be nerfed a lot to make the game balanced) - sometimes it is pretty clear how well humans will be able to control units; other times its hard to forsee what kind of impact units can have by players who are remarkably good and who have practised a lot.
However, if we are talking about balance, unless you are playing against the best players in the world, the answer to all woes literally is this: get good.
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Mech is hardly played because professional tier Koreans and Foreigners are used to playing MMMM or marine/tank.They have literally zero reason to sacrifice their tournament results by learning an entirely new playstyle from scratch when their current playstyle works effectively.
This is why the best Mech players right now are streamers like Avilo who lack the mindset to compete on the world stage.
To give David Kim some credit, Mech's received a substantial buff in the last few months. Siege Tanks now deal Brood War levels of burst damage while maintaining their superior attack speed from their Brood War counterparts. The Cyclone is now at worst a viable early game Mech counter to armoured units, and at best a lethal early game cheese machine that can devastate opponents with the right build and map.
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According to Aligulac Nercio should be reaching the last 8 of GSLs but he dont. 4 GSL finals is an amazing achievement for any Zerg, I still stand by the fact soO is a better player than Gumiho then and now. I like Gumiho, but hes not a top tier Terran
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On March 15 2017 03:39 Clbull wrote:
Mech is hardly played because professional tier Koreans and Foreigners are used to playing MMMM or marine/tank.They have literally zero reason to sacrifice their tournament results by learning an entirely new playstyle from scratch when their current playstyle works effectively.
This is why the best Mech players right now are streamers like Avilo who lack the mindset to compete on the world stage.
To give David Kim some credit, Mech's received a substantial buff in the last few months. Siege Tanks now deal Brood War levels of burst damage while maintaining their superior attack speed from their Brood War counterparts. The Cyclone is now at worst a viable early game Mech counter to armoured units, and at best a lethal early game cheese machine that can devastate opponents with the right build and map.
You overrate Avilo so much, he has never had any result in tournament, actually plenty of unknown players are better than him.
Tip his name on Aligulac :
avilo US T 0–1 Z US GAMETIME
avilo US T 0–2 T US FuturE
avilo US T 1–2 T US Cuddlebear
avilo US T 1–2 Z BO DarKLoVeR
avilo US T 0–2 P US RayReign
avilo US T 0–2 T CA Drunkenboi
Don't confound celebrity and skill.
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EPT
