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On March 10 2017 09:21 StraKo wrote:
I just hope that blizzard will some day focus on making more styles viable. The game currently really lacks diversity.
They haven't really done that through the whole lifetime of SC2. They have always balanced units to have very specific roles in each matchup, and many units not even useful at all in certain matchups.
It's the only way they are able to get semi-decent balance on the winrate results with the design of the game.
I am 100% confident that this part of the game will never be changing. They have proven that they will never be adjusting the actual design with their "design update" released last summer (which was actually just a balance patch with absolutely no actual "design" changes).
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Half-witted thoughts fueled with egotism. It's mostly a waste of limited retentive memory and of the potentiality of any given moment.
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The hardest part about touching anything mech related is that if you take one step too far, then you enable cancer mech which IMO is worse than even the most toxic styles of Protoss.
There is a variant of mech which is aggressive and timing based, awesome to play and watch, but it is inextricably bound up with the kind of mech that no one who is a fan of SC wants to see...
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On March 11 2017 07:25 Qwyn wrote:
The hardest part about touching anything mech related is that if you take one step too far, then you enable cancer mech which IMO is worse than even the most toxic styles of Protoss.
There is a variant of mech which is aggressive and timing based, awesome to play and watch, but it is inextricably bound up with the kind of mech that no one who is a fan of SC wants to see...
I wonder if it has anything to do with design. BW tanks for example, while they were strong, will die to zerglings + dark swarm, or speed zealots and storm. Basically, cheap melee units. BW tanks, while they were great for defense and can hold key positions, weren't by any mean OP if you make 20 and mass them along a line. The BW tanks themselves also didn't have smart firing and would overkill target. This allows zerglings and the speed zealots to break through the main line and do damage to the tanks or at least force the terran back a little bit. This allows back and forth and forces both player to reposition themselves in order to exploit or defend weak points.
In SC2, once Terran sets up their tank line, you pretty much have to commit your army or get an extremely gas heavy army of your own before you could even think about breaking that tank line. With PDD in the picture, the Terran, once they are in position, can trade extremely well and pretty much sit there. On the other hand, the Terran also can't move out in this situation without risk losing half of his army because his tanks were unsieged.
I don't think increasing or decreasing tanks or mech unit damage will help with these design flaws. Blizzard isn't exactly showing that they are willing to make drastic changes either and I highly doubt they even have more than 2 or 3 people on the balance team. Here is how I envision the SC2 balance division: 2 guys on the team making small changes, 1 marketing forum guy that repeats the top 3 most trending TL/Reddit complaints to promise change and propose updates without actually planning to carry those updates out.
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what effort did i miss something????
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Here I am watching Gumiho destroy yet another Zerg with Hellbat Tank Thor Viking. I open Teamliquid and people complain that Mech is not viable. Maybe the problem isn't mech but that you guys are too bad?
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On March 13 2017 21:29 Railgan wrote:
Here I am watching Gumiho destroy yet another Zerg with Hellbat Tank Thor Viking. I open Teamliquid and people complain that Mech is not viable. Maybe the problem isn't mech but that you guys are too bad?
so this means to you that beeing viable means that a pro player can win a ladder game with a certain strategy? well i guess scv rush just became viable 
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On March 13 2017 21:42 KOtical wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2017 21:29 Railgan wrote:
Here I am watching Gumiho destroy yet another Zerg with Hellbat Tank Thor Viking. I open Teamliquid and people complain that Mech is not viable. Maybe the problem isn't mech but that you guys are too bad? so this means to you that beeing viable means that a pro player can win a ladder game with a certain strategy? well i guess scv rush just became viable
Ladder game?
Gumiho like only mechs vs zergs in tournaments, and this has been the case for months.
Honestly, do you people even watch the game? Do you play it?
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On March 13 2017 21:42 KOtical wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2017 21:29 Railgan wrote:
Here I am watching Gumiho destroy yet another Zerg with Hellbat Tank Thor Viking. I open Teamliquid and people complain that Mech is not viable. Maybe the problem isn't mech but that you guys are too bad? so this means to you that beeing viable means that a pro player can win a ladder game with a certain strategy? well i guess scv rush just became viable
We saw pros using mech in tournaments several times by players like Ryung, Gumiho or TY. It's definitely somewhat viable.
However I haven't seen a mech player deal well with swarmhosts yet so I hope they'll make some adjustments to them.
For some reason pros don't use swarmhosts that often against mech but TY seemed clueless on how to deal with soO's swarmhosts in gsl.
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France12771 Posts
Pros don't win equally skilled opponents with mech in TvX (x!=T) tho, Gumiho got crushed by soO as well when trying mech.
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On March 13 2017 22:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2017 21:42 KOtical wrote:On March 13 2017 21:29 Railgan wrote:
Here I am watching Gumiho destroy yet another Zerg with Hellbat Tank Thor Viking. I open Teamliquid and people complain that Mech is not viable. Maybe the problem isn't mech but that you guys are too bad? so this means to you that beeing viable means that a pro player can win a ladder game with a certain strategy? well i guess scv rush just became viable We saw pros using mech in tournaments several times by players like Ryung, Gumiho or TY. It's definitely somewhat viable. However I haven't seen a mech player deal well with swarmhosts yet so I hope they'll make some adjustments to them. For some reason pros don't use swarmhosts that often against mech but TY seemed clueless on how to deal with soO's swarmhosts in gsl.
TY lost like 1 refinery to swarmhosts. It was more like after he saw them his brain stopped working and he completely forgot soO could make air units so when soO showed broodlords he had 1 unit that could shoot up.
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On March 13 2017 22:54 Poopi wrote:
Pros don't win equally skilled opponents with mech in TvX (x!=T) tho, Gumiho got crushed by soO as well when trying mech.
But soO did not use Swarmhost. Just Roach/Ravager/Hyra and some vipers overall. So what? Nerf all that units? Because soO won and shouldn't? LOL
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On March 13 2017 23:05 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2017 22:09 Charoisaur wrote:On March 13 2017 21:42 KOtical wrote:On March 13 2017 21:29 Railgan wrote:
Here I am watching Gumiho destroy yet another Zerg with Hellbat Tank Thor Viking. I open Teamliquid and people complain that Mech is not viable. Maybe the problem isn't mech but that you guys are too bad? so this means to you that beeing viable means that a pro player can win a ladder game with a certain strategy? well i guess scv rush just became viable We saw pros using mech in tournaments several times by players like Ryung, Gumiho or TY. It's definitely somewhat viable. However I haven't seen a mech player deal well with swarmhosts yet so I hope they'll make some adjustments to them. For some reason pros don't use swarmhosts that often against mech but TY seemed clueless on how to deal with soO's swarmhosts in gsl. TY lost like 1 refinery to swarmhosts. It was more like after he saw them his brain stopped working and he completely forgot soO could make air units so when soO showed broodlords he had 1 unit that could shoot up.
he lost 2 refineries and 7 scvs to the locusts, couldn't push because the locust waves forced him to back off every time and because of them he attempted a speedbanshee transition instead of transitioning to air units.
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France12771 Posts
On March 13 2017 23:19 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2017 22:54 Poopi wrote:
Pros don't win equally skilled opponents with mech in TvX (x!=T) tho, Gumiho got crushed by soO as well when trying mech. But soO did not use Swarmhost. Just Roach/Ravager/Hyra and some vipers overall. So what? Nerf all that units? Because soO won and shouldn't? LOL
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I didn't talk about nerf or whatever, I don't care much about mech, but it's still bad in TvZ and TvP.
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On March 13 2017 22:54 Poopi wrote:
Pros don't win equally skilled opponents with mech in TvX (x!=T) tho, Gumiho got crushed by soO as well when trying mech.
soO would most likely crush Gumiho with any composition, Gumiho is hardly a top of the line Terran
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That being said I think Gumiho's one of the better mech players, no? Or at least he's the one that's tried it probably more than most of the other Terrans.
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He beat soO in a bo5 4 days ago with only mech.
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On March 11 2017 08:01 phodacbiet wrote:
I don't think increasing or decreasing tanks or mech unit damage will help with these design flaws. Blizzard isn't exactly showing that they are willing to make drastic changes either and I highly doubt they even have more than 2 or 3 people on the balance team. Here is how I envision the SC2 balance division: 2 guys on the team making small changes, 1 marketing forum guy that repeats the top 3 most trending TL/Reddit complaints to promise change and propose updates without actually planning to carry those updates out.
seeing as you're going way, way, way off and wildly speculating... i'll counter speculate...
the revenue generated by the small group of whining RTS players is not worth bullshitting. your money ain't worth their time to even spin doctor. they'd rather make a new skylander figure for 10,000 nine year olds to lose and cry to their parents to buy it a 2nd time.
ATVI makes more revenue off of Skylander toys lost by 9 year olds than it does off of competitive RTS players.
Blzzard bullshitting you about this would be like your auto mechanic lying to you so that you pay $2501 rather than $2500 to get your transmission replaced. it ain't worth the $1 to bullshit.. the guy is already getting $2500 out of you for a tough job.
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Making mech viable vs toss wouldn't hurt, the last time I saw someone try was 2014 (not counting LotV beta with mass cyclones).
Also people keep complaining but the only things that have been asked has been:
1.- Nerf ravens.
2.- Nerf SH
Its not the fucking end of the world, both those units are pretty cancerous and are pretty detrimental to make aggressive mech work.
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On March 14 2017 00:13 intotheheart wrote:
That being said I think Gumiho's one of the better mech players, no? Or at least he's the one that's tried it probably more than most of the other Terrans.
On March 14 2017 00:24 Elentos wrote:
He beat soO in a bo5 4 days ago with only mech.
From what remember Soo played really poorly against gumiho's mech (stupid compositions, loosing way too much to simple hellion harass).
And, most of all, like every KR zerg player but Rogue or Leenock, he didn't build any swarmhosts.
But i watched it half asleep so if i'm wrong feel free to correct me.
The only three reasons why we see TvZ mech at the top KR level is because :
- they synergize well with cheesy builds (Ryung vs leenock in the GSL, fast range liberator build), so they can be used as a map specific cheese
- most KR zergs don't seem to be used to play against mech (lack of scouting, still going for a fast third with mass queens speedlings then go for +1/+1 melee then go for T2 tech, playing the HOTS meta with roach hydras into very fast vipers, etc...)
- most KR zergs don't build swarm hosts against mech
If you look the EU and NA scene, no one plays mech. Saying mech is perfectly fine and viable right now would be like saying forge expand is viable in PvT because KR pros can pull it off after a sucessfull canon rush.
I'm not saying mech can"t be strong against zerg right now, i'm saying it's not viable. As in : there's no meta, no stages of the game, the few sucessfull mech plays we see at GSL/top KR levels are based on cheeses and the fact that zergs weren't really confronted to mech so they don't know what to do.
On March 14 2017 00:44 Lexender wrote:
Making mech viable vs toss wouldn't hurt, the last time I saw someone try was 2014 (not counting LotV beta with mass cyclones).
Actually i think that the only matchup where mech is truely viable right now is TvP. I've played mech in TvP most of the time since 3.8 (even beat Nightend and WhiteRa with mech play), and i haven't really seen any toss composition that really invalidates mech.
- tempests are much more of an investment, and thors have similar range. So if you have some amount of thors in your army you can push out when you scout the SG transition.
- immortals are now much more suceptible to siege tanks shots, and cyclones can burst them down too if they're exposed. So now you can actually do focus fire with your siege tanks
- cyclones, tanks and vikings are now much stronger against blink stalkers, which were one of the real reasons mech was terrible against toss in the past
- ranged liberators can invalidate compositions that rely too heavily on disruptors
- the thor's increased AoE, and in some way the cyclone and the raven's auto turret can allow the mech player to push against carriers when the transition is scouted
- BCs can wreck carriers with yamato, and can "allin" tempests with the jump into yamato
However, phenixes openers "straight into carriers" are still an issue. The fact that you can't ever push out against a toss that goes for phenixes, and the fact that not pushing out against early carriers is kind of a death sentence unless you wanna turtle REALLY hard into BCs, really makes me wonder if mech can deal with it. But that could be adjusted later if we see mech buils against toss getting shut down by that.
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EPT
