EPTBio wise I don't think much will change besides that doing what bomber does by mixing in tank based builds in a box to throw your opponent off will be more viable, though in a bo1 scenario bio mine remains the best option. Maybe a really high tier terran with 350+ apm will show us some incredibly bio/mine/tank play that'll blow our minds, I doubt it though.
HotS Balance Update - November 11 - Page 63
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Lorch
Germany3686 Posts
Bio wise I don't think much will change besides that doing what bomber does by mixing in tank based builds in a box to throw your opponent off will be more viable, though in a bo1 scenario bio mine remains the best option. Maybe a really high tier terran with 350+ apm will show us some incredibly bio/mine/tank play that'll blow our minds, I doubt it though. | ||
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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
We´ll see how things will turn out with this Patch. Im sure someone will find a way in TvZ that will give us hope if we talk about the mine nerf. Biggest problem seem to be Mutas. I doubt they will remain untouched in the near future. About TvP: I dont know about the Oracle. I just find it wierd in general that we are forced to go bio against compositions that almost hardcounter clumped units. Speaking of Archon biological damage and all the splash damage. It seems like Zealot/Archon/HT or other compositions with Colossus are made to beat Bio. It just dont feels right. Oh and all the complaining and such: I would rather read some first Impressions about the new changes from my Terran brothers especially for Mech. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 14 2013 21:16 Tresher wrote: Oh and all the complaining and such: I would rather read some first Impressions about the new changes from my Terran brothers especially for Mech. It's better. And still not good enough to be playable. Especially not in TvP, but it's also still bad in TvZ either. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On November 14 2013 21:22 Big J wrote: It's better. And still not good enough to be playable. Especially not in TvP, but it's also still bad in TvZ either. You meant "as well", right? | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
Am I the only one thinking that MSC is the root of all problems? That's just too much defense for P in such an early stage of the game. They can just basically concentrate on agression on in tvp. Maybe not remove it since it's kinda fun but maybe shorten the duration or reduce range or damage | ||
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Reasonable
Ukraine1432 Posts
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On November 14 2013 21:33 Reasonable wrote: Sweet, no more losing to terrans with 60 apm rallying mmmm to my 4th! Said 40 apm zerg rallying ling/bling/muta into terran's third. | ||
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gTank
Austria2588 Posts
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10bulgares
352 Posts
On November 14 2013 21:22 Big J wrote: It's better. And still not good enough to be playable. Especially not in TvP, but it's also still bad in TvZ either. It could be that enabling pure mech play is not the goal of these changes but rather to allow more mixing of mech units in bio armies. For me it doesn't sound like a problem that you can't build viable pure mech armies. The problem is if only a fistful of units and strategies are usable. So what we should look for is more changes in the compo and timings of terran armies. Combined upgrades could be good to see more hellbats, hellions, more banshees and ravens, and perhaps battlecruisers in the late game. There might even be ways how to use tanks in tvp. | ||
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
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Slydie
1927 Posts
Dears pvt is like Innos tvz a while back, when anyone can beat him in a series, terrans will rejoyce! Not taking anything away from dear, he is a great player. | ||
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goody153
44230 Posts
On November 14 2013 21:33 Reasonable wrote: Sweet, no more losing to terrans with 60 apm rallying mmmm to my 4th! you probably just suck at sc2 | ||
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Fowowski
Poland6 Posts
When one goes bio he's making bio upgrades (leaving the air units with nothing) but when someone goes mech then hes instantly upgrading ground and air so composition like: tanks, many hellions (+hellbat transformation upgrade and blue flame) + vikings is the solution for nowadays TvT. In TvP proxy oracles are ruining the whole fun of playing. It's really not funny how that one unit can destroy whole mineral line in just few seconds. Early game T is forced to get static defence or mass marines which arent that good vs proxy oracles to double robo colossus switch. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On November 14 2013 21:32 Noonius wrote: HSC will be interesting, apart from group H, every group has a T and P. Gonna be watching so I can make sense of it all. Am I the only one thinking that MSC is the root of all problems? That's just too much defense for P in such an early stage of the game. They can just basically concentrate on agression on in tvp. Maybe not remove it since it's kinda fun but maybe shorten the duration or reduce range or damage Yes I agree with you. I get that they wanted to make protoss safer in the early game but they did too much and now you basically can't do any damage to protoss at all before medivacs are out. And since they can play more greedy than before, they will also be better prepared for terran mid game aggression. We have games like Innovation vs. Trap where terran deliberately invests in extra barracks to get a massive army advantage, gets 40-50 supply ahead and cant engage protoss up the ramp. But protoss is perfectly fine sitting 2 base against 3 base terran until he has enough AOE to take a safe third and even if third is couple of minutes later (like in Taeja vs. Dear games) protoss is not behind as long as he maxes out with his deathball. It seems to me that if both players are similar in skill (for example Innovation or Maru as the best terrans vs. Dear or Rain as the best protoss) terran is at a disadvantage through the whole game because there is no big moves terran can do to force protoss out of their confort zone. They are comfortable in the early game, they are comfortable staying behind terran in economy in the mid game, staying with all units in their 2 bases so doing drops is next to impossible, especially on some maps, and finally, they feel extremely comfortable in the late game because their army basically hardcounters terran army unless perfect EMPs are hit and right amount of vikings are made. On the other hand, terran is threatened in the early game by variety of protoss strats, can parade on the map in the mid game but cant do any damage and is racing against the clock because again, you work with army that is hardcountered by protoss army so your control must be perfect. At least that is how I see it. | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
Though must agree - it's as if it's BW TvP and having a mass disadvantage right from the get-go in terms of being able to expand or more precisely - not being able to defend your expansion early on.. Only this time - it's also that it's Protoss who has all the late-game mechanics/front-battle advantage as well.. I guess (not sure, but guess) that the reason why Tanks couldn't be even further buffed is probably because of how-fast they would get rid of locusts from a Swarm-Host play.. I mean Tanks could already do well on the hold, yet alone being buffed in attack speed.. Still - there's much left to be done.. Perhaps right this moment is the worst place for being a Terran.. I play mostly random though and must say that the WM nerf was probably a good thing for ZvT, but there are more buffs that Terran should get to "compensate" for the nerf TBH.. Especially anything that won't affect TvZ much, but will affect TvP and not being bio seems like a change to be welcomed | ||
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10bulgares
352 Posts
On November 14 2013 21:16 Tresher wrote: The Bomber picture was quite amusing. Funny thing is you can read it in several ways. Its either "Nerf Oracle - Protoss Imba" or "Nerf Protoss - Oracle Imba" . We´ll see how things will turn out with this Patch. Im sure someone will find a way in TvZ that will give us hope if we talk about the mine nerf. Biggest problem seem to be Mutas. I doubt they will remain untouched in the near future. About TvP: I dont know about the Oracle. I just find it wierd in general that we are forced to go bio against compositions that almost hardcounter clumped units. Speaking of Archon biological damage and all the splash damage. It seems like Zealot/Archon/HT or other compositions with Colossus are made to beat Bio. It just dont feels right. Oh and all the complaining and such: I would rather read some first Impressions about the new changes from my Terran brothers especially for Mech. Just like EMP's and drop play forces p to split their army somehow. Just like tanks and wm against zergs It's a good thing that the deathball strategy is hindered. The main objective is diversity and balance. Right now it is balanced but not very diverse especially for terrans. Hence the tank buff and combined mech upgrades. Then I understands somewhat the complains against wm nerf and oracle buff who were not really needed in this respect but it remains to be seen if they really change the balance. Everyone focuses on TvP but I fear the main risk is that z becomes dominant. If roach can make their way burrowed through forcefields and wm cannot be replaced in tvz. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
On November 14 2013 14:28 SjPhotoGrapher wrote: 1/1/1 is still viable TvP, just build bunkers at their front. Great Bronze Level analysis. What are you going to do when you just Stake out their front they Get Cannons at front Zone you out with PO and they Get Tempests in the meantime and start warping zealots across the map from hidden pylons for counter attacks all at the same time? LOL This is just 1 Reaction that just completely destroys your idea. The reality is that ANY ANY Stargate play KILLLS this 1-1-1 so easy............... | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
On November 14 2013 14:17 Sufinsil wrote: But people do not want to make turrets, scout with reapers or use widow mines. They want to be greedy as much as possible and its good they will be punished for it. RIIIIGGGGGGGHTTTTTTTTTTT So is there anything at all ANYTHING that Terran can do to protoss to make it so they aren't greedy................ That can end the game like an oracle can? lol EDIT: IF there is any Terran Sympathetic Cartoonist out there Please make a picture of Terran army surrounding a nexus and a Mama Ship core calling out "OLLY OLLY OXEN FREE" and then the next picture they are all dead LOL I would pay money for this hahahhahaha | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
yes. I wanted to write "not better in TvZ either", realized *better* would be a word-repetition and switched to "also still bad in TvZ as well"... just not quite  (does the English language actually care about word-repetitions? I'm not quite sure anymore... german instincts too stronk) On November 14 2013 21:42 10bulgares wrote: It could be that enabling pure mech play is not the goal of these changes but rather to allow more mixing of mech units in bio armies. For me it doesn't sound like a problem that you can't build viable pure mech armies. The problem is if only a fistful of units and strategies are usable. So what we should look for is more changes in the compo and timings of terran armies. Combined upgrades could be good to see more hellbats, hellions, more banshees and ravens, and perhaps battlecruisers in the late game. There might even be ways how to use tanks in tvp. Whether you want Mech or biomech or skymech or whatever viable, it all comes down to the same problem: The particular Terran units are too easy to counter. Unlike a Colossus or Templar or Ultralisk or a Broodlord that outperform all but a few units from T/P/Z, Tanks/Thors can be countered too easily. Like the Colossus requires Air units and the Ultralisk Immortals/Marauders as a reaction from the opponent to really deal with them. They are scary as shit to fight. Then you look at the tank: - all air to ground capable units - certain ground units (Immortals, Archons; Ultralisks to a certain degree) - certain casters (Vipers, storms) - tricks (like drops on top of them, or just closing in with blink/charge/burrow) are all quite good choices against them, even if you support them with regular units. Similarily for the Thor - many air units (Broodlords, Carriers, Tempest, Voidray) - many midtier ground units (roach/hydra, immortal, zealot, swarm host) - certain casters (Vipers, Infestors) They suffer the same difficulties as a Colossus or an Ultralisk, which aren't the most mobile units in the game and therefore can be ouplayed with mobility (like drops). Just that you can also headbutt them with multiple compositions, something you can't do against Colossus/Ultralisks. Gotta build the very few right counters against them or you will get rolled over in direct combat. Whether you play them as Mech or biomech or *something*, those units will always only be nieche units, until they can deal with a greater variety of stuff more easily. Like I can see the tank come back into ZvT (with the right tweaks). But it's going to be solely a roach and baneling (and maybe infestor) counter. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
It is equally terrible to sacrifice style - separate Terran upgrades for factory/starport units - for power/convenienve, because that doesnt actually solve the problem. In BW - yes I said it - people didnt have many upgrades for a looong time and in SC2 they can rush through everything. I wonder when Blizzard will just change those upgrade stages 1-3 into one upgrade. The Oracle change is terrible, because it makes the unit far too safe and power without risk is bad ... at lower skill levels at least. | ||
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