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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On November 19 2013 04:17 Pirfiktshon wrote: I dont know if you ever had this situation but 3-4 Thors actually Obliterate VR's hahahaha. I'd say have gateway units Enable Tempests to wreck thors I just remembered this game from Artosis in the GSL Qualifier. The interview at the end was interesting too regarding Voids and Thors  | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 19 2013 04:14 Hider wrote: Thorzain only won that game cus MC had way fewer Immortals than Thorzain had Thors. Since Thors are more expensive to produce than Immortals, it shold be the other way around. There was never any balance problem there - just protoss's who didn't know how to react, which is understandable as it was immediately patched after it was discovered. Besides massing Immortals, protoss could also have mixed in VR's which would draw target fire from thors --> allows Protoss gateway units to be more efficient. The Thor was retarted. It could stun lock a unit and drop +300 damage on it with a single click. You needed two immortals per Thor just to have them do damage. There is a reaso. That ability was removed in hots, because it was fucking terrible. People bitch about anti micro abilities, well that was the finest of them, removing all ability to control the unit till it was dead. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On November 19 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote: The Thor was retarted. It could stun lock a unit and drop +300 damage on it with a single click. You needed two immortals per Thor just to have them do damage. There is a reaso. That ability was removed in hots, because it was fucking terrible. People !@#$%^&* about anti micro abilities, well that was the finest of them, removing all ability to control the unit till it was dead. As I wrote, I tested this extensively - Unit tetser simply prooves you wrong as an equal amount ressources spent on Immortals rapes an equal amount of ressources spent on Thors. Now in the scenario where the thor count is equal or higher than the Immortal count, the reverse thing ofc happens. But therefore it is just misleading to believe Thors were op back then - It was just a gimmick that seemed strong if opponent had the wrong unit composition. There is a reaso. That ability was removed in hots, because it was fucking terrible. People !@#$%^&* about anti micro abilities, well that was the finest of them, removing all ability to control the unit till it was dead. That's something else. That's a design discussion, where it ofc was and still is awfully designed as micro is unpractical. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On November 19 2013 04:36 Plansix wrote: Right, so an ability that lets you stun lock and a unit and kill it before it ever fires is good for the game how? It was bullshit and bad. Even with force fields you need to trap the units, not just click on them. I am all for Thors being viable, but not with that terrible ability. No it isn't (as I wrote). It just wasn't imbalanced, and eventually it would have been figured out by the majority of the people, and noone would have used it anyway. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Yea I'm with you though I hate all these casting abilities that limit microing such as fungal, Time warp, Force Field Terran no longer has any so I'm just kinda curious if they are going to change that or not hmm... I'd prefer them not to but that is a gap that isn't closed for Terran | ||
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Sabu113
United States11075 Posts
Think Dwf's on the money about the general design problem. You know what I am surprised we haven't seen more bitching about? Voidrays. They make sense and the game is balanced but sometimes they just look so silly. blargh. I just think I don't care for air ever being more than a supplement unless it involves something like a carrier commitment. Hmn I wonder if that's a consistent thought though since Voidrays aren't exactly cheap or super fast. | ||
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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
The Thor should be something they showed at the HOTS Unit presentation. A mini Thor that is a different version of the Goliath: A Unit that is capable of getting rid of mutas/light air units. Also more massable but more like the Goliath or Viking withou being "A move massable" Something like this: Size: Im not to keen with radius numbers in SC2 but something as big as the Immo or Archon or bit bigger. Speed: Maybe 2 or 2.5 so it can catch up to air units ofc. Supply: 4 Armor: 1 Ground Attack: It should keep its Attack ability so it can defend itself( just like the Goliath). Ofc the damage should be adjusted maybe 2x 15 Air Attack: Im not so sure what the damage should be in numbers, but something like the Valkyrie with wider spread (magic boxing). Not sure if it should keep the High Impact load.Maybe adjusted damage too. HP: Something around the Warhound Health ( 225hp if I recall correctly) Armor Class should remain : Armored - Mechanical- Massive In General a adjusted Thor. Maybe It doesnt even need the wider spread cause its more massable with these stats. Air Damage could be even flat but small. Ground Damage maybe too so it doesnt become said "I walk over everythingROFLSTOMP" Unit . I think this is all and I hope I didnt forget anything. This is all to make the Thor less clumpy and more like the first shown Warhound. A good support Unit nothing more. Im not good at using the Editor so maybe there is someone that could build that Unit for me and show it to me. I would love to see how this Unit would work out. EDIT: I wish they would have get rid of the Thor in general and bring in the Warhound like they wanted. Guess we cant have everything  . Really wanna know why they changed their mind cause they said themselves the Thor is too clumpy and can get stuck easy. Something I dont understand just like the Attack animation from the BC. If the Bc had his BW attack Im sure it would be better. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Widow mine was so very important when going mech 1) They allowed you a good way to apply early pressure 2) They were cost efficient but time inefficient which made it easer to set up your infrastructure 3) They were great when used in medivac drops. 4) They protected you from mutalisk harass. 5) They protected your tanks both from air and ground units. 6) They made it possible to fight Broodlord/Corruptor with your Vikings even if you had not been able to get enough Ravens yet. Post patch it seems like widow mines are worse at everything. They no longer work against muta harass, they are worse when fighting against Broodlord/corruptors, they are worse against runbys and they are worse in straight up fights. One would imagine that combined upgrades would make it easier to transition into air, which is necessary to do before blinding cloud is out. But in my experience the transition into air is actually much harder to now, and it is easy to die from mutalisk harass or mutalisk/swarmhost before you can get your Raven count up. Widow mines used to be the buffer unit that proteced you and bought you time to get your mech going, now that buffer does not work any more. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26003 Posts
On November 19 2013 04:56 Sabu113 wrote: Don't forget I think ghosts still wiped out full shields at that time. I t was silly how easily thors ate through unshielded immortals. Then nothing else actually did enough damage to kill them when they hit a critical count. They had to have energy added back. Think Dwf's on the money about the general design problem. You know what I am surprised we haven't seen more bitching about? Voidrays. They make sense and the game is balanced but sometimes they just look so silly. blargh. I just think I don't care for air ever being more than a supplement unless it involves something like a carrier commitment. Hmn I wonder if that's a consistent thought though since Voidrays aren't exactly cheap or super fast. I'm tired of derailing this thread with my anti-Protoss whine :p That said I agree on the Void point, so godamn boring. Phoenixes > Oracles as an interesting microable harass unit. I like late game oracles and the use of their support spells, just not overly as a unit that shreds workers and is invariably proxied. Carriers, if they could get them right would be badass, a la BW. The Templar/Carrier combo is also one that I like. The problem I see is that ideally it should be sprinkling in a few Carriers, but so many units can't really fulfil the combo of 'strong in low numbers, without being overpowered en masse'. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26003 Posts
On November 19 2013 05:13 Pirfiktshon wrote: "No Risk" The risk is HT FB and you are useless now LOL atleast for the Fungle. Thor didn't happen until after the patch where it gave them energy. FFs have 0 Risk Neither does TW in reality yet they contribute to Massive damage that can be done with these abilities............. They are high risk, because their usage dictates the effectiveness of Protoss engagements. Try consistently botching their us and see how you do. Back to mech (again), I blame the hellbat nerf. It wasn't a good period for TvT for sure, sometimes silly in TvZ and pretty reasonable in TvP. Anyway, the crux of my point is that, unlike in BW a mech army isn't strong enough to function from anything other than a position where you do early Eco damage to your opponent. Not every time, but it was pretty much the same in matchups like TvZ towards the end of WoL. If your hellions don't roast drones you're not gonna have a good time. | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
On November 19 2013 05:43 MockHamill wrote: When nerfing widow means due to MMMM it seems like Blizzard accidently nerfed mech as well. Widow mine was so very important when going mech 1) They allowed you a good way to apply early pressure 2) They were cost efficient but time inefficient which made it easer to set up your infrastructure 3) They were great when used in medivac drops. 4) They protected you from mutalisk harass. 5) They protected your tanks both from air and ground units. 6) They made it possible to fight Broodlord/Corruptor with your Vikings even if you had not been able to get enough Ravens yet. Post patch it seems like widow mines are worse at everything. They no longer work against muta harass, they are worse when fighting against Broodlord/corruptors, they are worse against runbys and they are worse in straight up fights. One would imagine that combined upgrades would make it easier to transition into air, which is necessary to do before blinding cloud is out. But in my experience the transition into air is actually much harder to now, and it is easy to die from mutalisk harass or mutalisk/swarmhost before you can get your Raven count up. Widow mines used to be the buffer unit that proteced you and bought you time to get your mech going, now that buffer does not work any more. Actlually NO.. I'm not denying that WMs don't work as good as they used to.. But here's the important part of it: They don't work as good VS ZERG anymore.. In exchange the Tanks are a bit better to shut down locusts earlier for slightly more evened out battle-field zoning in mech ZvT matchup.. In addition the upgrades are easier now, so there's a bit better transition to air (just as you said it yourself).. However - the design of the WM as a unit itself was a mistake in the first place.. It was soo much designed to be a VS ZERG unit.. It was never experimented to be a more versatile rather than more specialized unit.. Like for example make the unit shoot twice when it's CD is restarted with a somewhat reduced splash, that way maybe Z won't suffer as much cause probably will "clean up the mines" before they shoot up again, or even if they do they wouldn't suffer as much as they would from a ONE BIG BLAST.. But here's the gain for example --> Protoss probably would have more problems due to the fact that what was once the "sacrifice a Zealots and don't care about it anymore for next 40 sec" unit won't be as easy to trigger off and ignore.. However here's the even greater point (on a level above that in abstraction overall) --> Terran has FAR TOO MUCH units that are specialized.. The only versatile units are those that are massed (the Marine  , and the ones that accompany them well - Marauders and Medivacs).. Terran IMO will be FINALIZED race when they have 1 unit per production building type that's at least DECENT in verstatility.. That being said WM is the perfect candidate to experiment and do that one.. The more the merrier ofc. if there was a versatile all-rounded unit from the Starport as well would've been even happier place.. But w.e. - the point is - Blizz needs to experiment more with the WM as a unit that will work better vs Protoss (or even better - decent vs all the 3 races) as opposed to being a VS ZERG specialist unit overall IMO | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On November 19 2013 05:04 Tresher wrote: I see people are talking about the thor so I want to contribute something to the discussion. I need to get this out of my head. Keeping this Idea for a long time now. The Thor should be something they showed at the HOTS Unit presentation. A mini Thor that is a different version of the Goliath: A Unit that is capable of getting rid of mutas/light air units. Also more massable but more like the Goliath or Viking withou being "A move massable" Something like this: Size: Im not to keen with radius numbers in SC2 but something as big as the Immo or Archon or bit bigger. Speed: Maybe 2 or 2.5 so it can catch up to air units ofc. Supply: 4 Armor: 1 Ground Attack: It should keep its Attack ability so it can defend itself( just like the Goliath). Ofc the damage should be adjusted maybe 2x 15 Air Attack: Im not so sure what the damage should be in numbers, but something like the Valkyrie with wider spread (magic boxing). Not sure if it should keep the High Impact load.Maybe adjusted damage too. HP: Something around the Warhound Health ( 225hp if I recall correctly) Armor Class should remain : Armored - Mechanical- Massive In General a adjusted Thor. Maybe It doesnt even need the wider spread cause its more massable with these stats. Air Damage could be even flat but small. Ground Damage maybe too so it doesnt become said "I walk over everythingROFLSTOMP" Unit . I think this is all and I hope I didnt forget anything. This is all to make the Thor less clumpy and more like the first shown Warhound. A good support Unit nothing more. Im not good at using the Editor so maybe there is someone that could build that Unit for me and show it to me. I would love to see how this Unit would work out. EDIT: I wish they would have get rid of the Thor in general and bring in the Warhound like they wanted. Guess we cant have everything . Really wanna know why they changed their mind cause they said themselves the Thor is too clumpy and can get stuck easy. Something I dont understand just like the Attack animation from the BC. If the Bc had his BW attack Im sure it would be better.I just find HotS for T pretty sad. I think T was the best designed race originally, their tech and synergy was just great, fx. going banshee harass was okay since you'd eventually want the starport anyway(compared to fx. going stargate harass for toss). Then when they were searching for T flaws/weaknesses for HotS to fix, they did find them. Counterattacks are pretty hard to deal with so we got the shredder and we got the warhound which was originally supposed to be AA unit. Then they just said "fuck it" and changed those units to not fulfill those T flaws/weaknesses. I still don't understand what the heck happened, I mean I know there were issues with the shredder, but they really should've atleast stuck with the idea of a more defensive unit rather than give us the VM which can be thought of as "when not on CD it's not being as effective as it could be"(which is an aggression "problem"). Also I have no idea how they thought changing the warhound to the shit unit it became was a good idea, effectively trying to make mech the same as MMM. I just don't understand how those decisions were made. I do like though that they buffed GtA vs armored for the thor, though I wish they had removed the thor and added mini-thor like unit, like reduce all stats by 50% aswell as cost/build time but make it slightly faster. On December 05 2013 09:35 Wombat_NI wrote: Which is more frustrating for you Terrans, TvP currently or TvZ in late WoL? TvP. TvZ was just insanely insanely stupid late TvZ(and imba), but TvP feels more like you've got to deal damage while having worse units(well your whole army is worse), worse defense and worse scouting. Even late WoL TvZ I feel like T could always be doing something, there was an opening, you just had to read the game right and find it. In TvP a lot of the times I feel making a move is a huge risk, will you get allin'ed while you have a medivac out on the map? Does he have blink? Will you get TW/FF'd? Is he ready to feedback you? That's just demoralizing, knowing you have to make a move but feeling you are as likely to be committing suicide making it as you are in gaining a slight advantage | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
And yes I hate macro games (it feels like I'm just injecting larvae and trying to spread creep for 10mins) but that's really not the reason I'm posting. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On November 19 2013 05:43 MockHamill wrote: When nerfing widow means due to MMMM it seems like Blizzard accidently nerfed mech as well. Widow mine was so very important when going mech 1) They allowed you a good way to apply early pressure 2) They were cost efficient but time inefficient which made it easer to set up your infrastructure 3) They were great when used in medivac drops. 4) They protected you from mutalisk harass. 5) They protected your tanks both from air and ground units. 6) They made it possible to fight Broodlord/Corruptor with your Vikings even if you had not been able to get enough Ravens yet. Post patch it seems like widow mines are worse at everything. They no longer work against muta harass, they are worse when fighting against Broodlord/corruptors, they are worse against runbys and they are worse in straight up fights. One would imagine that combined upgrades would make it easier to transition into air, which is necessary to do before blinding cloud is out. But in my experience the transition into air is actually much harder to now, and it is easy to die from mutalisk harass or mutalisk/swarmhost before you can get your Raven count up. Widow mines used to be the buffer unit that proteced you and bought you time to get your mech going, now that buffer does not work any more. I don't really agree. I never used many mines pre-patchand always have been able to go mech + raven into late game. Still can do it now in the same way. Mines have always been better with bio than with mech because bio purposely tries to trade low cost marines for baneling/ling/muta, whereas with mech you almost never want to trade units that cost supply and gas like the mine because then your army is just much weaker. If you are saying the widow mine being nerfed to the current state was overall a bad nerf, then i'd agree because it's almost useless in it's current state. Having watched a lot of games, including korean Terrans, it looks like even blue flame hellbats would do better than the current mine vs ling/bane/muta...even if it's just the hellbat dying to banelings lol. | ||
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zajeBEASTY
Poland40 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:53 sAsImre wrote: thorship are really good with the boost now so the speed isn't that much of a problem. And you should never lose it if you've the micro to do it. Regen on the other hand... thorship opening is still as legitimate in hots as it was in wol (fwiw...) in terms of raw mechanics of the units available at the time the thor comes out. with the boost I would argue it's slightly better, even taking into account the spore crawler upgrade. | ||
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