On November 19 2013 02:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, because PvT armies are made purely out of immortals, as opposed to a few immortals, if they are taken at all.
And everthing T has is armoured and in range of an immortal.
You probably build a good bunch of Immortals when your opponent uses strong mech units as his army core. Getting to shoot with a range 6 unit is not that hard as well.
Yeah, but without the harden shield, the immortal loses in an straight up fight. Since both units has a similar cost of around 300 minerals, it's really a question of if the immortal gets EMPrd or not. People often forget that the immortal costs almost as much as a colossi.
The flaw with the Thor is it takes 9 years to make one and they are slow as shit.
That isn't even the problem. It's like you say it's the EMP or not. After Thorzain almost litterally 1a'd MC they reinstated teh energy so were would be some sort of counter to mass thor and especially mass thor with smart repair.
On November 19 2013 02:24 TheDWorm wrote: I would like to know what u think if they change the collosi dmg so it does +dmg against Light but nerf the overall dmg - so they still melt through rines or lings and hydras and stuff like that but dont end up like beeing effective against any ground unit. This just came into my mind - not thought out so much - but imo this would be a good change to weaken the p-deathball without making them (the collosi) useless (especially against T bio).
Collosus +dmg should be vs biological only as a somewhat buff for mech and also PvP isnt collosus vs collosus on some maps since they don't make too much of a difference vs mechanical anymore so it's no longer who has the most collosus in PvP if someone makes one.
PvP from what I've seen is basically an arms race. If someone gets one, the other guy either has to get his own or try and get more or he'll lose.
On November 19 2013 02:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, because PvT armies are made purely out of immortals, as opposed to a few immortals, if they are taken at all.
And everthing T has is armoured and in range of an immortal.
You probably build a good bunch of Immortals when your opponent uses strong mech units as his army core. Getting to shoot with a range 6 unit is not that hard as well.
Yeah, but without the harden shield, the immortal loses in an straight up fight. Since both units has a similar cost of around 300 minerals, it's really a question of if the immortal gets EMPrd or not. People often forget that the immortal costs almost as much as a colossi.
The flaw with the Thor is it takes 9 years to make one and they are slow as shit.
That isn't even the problem. It's like you say it's the EMP or not. After Thorzain almost litterally 1a'd MC they reinstated teh energy so were would be some sort of counter to mass thor and especially mass thor with smart repair.
Oh back when the Thor was retarted, could stun lock an immortal and kill it at range like 9 and the maps where the size of a postage stamp? Yeah, that sucked.
But that isn't now, so the Thor might need a little love. Maybe longer range on its anti air attach and bonus damage to shields, including harden shields.
On November 19 2013 02:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, because PvT armies are made purely out of immortals, as opposed to a few immortals, if they are taken at all.
And everthing T has is armoured and in range of an immortal.
You probably build a good bunch of Immortals when your opponent uses strong mech units as his army core. Getting to shoot with a range 6 unit is not that hard as well.
Yeah, but without the harden shield, the immortal loses in an straight up fight. Since both units has a similar cost of around 300 minerals, it's really a question of if the immortal gets EMPrd or not. People often forget that the immortal costs almost as much as a colossi.
The flaw with the Thor is it takes 9 years to make one and they are slow as shit.
That isn't even the problem. It's like you say it's the EMP or not. After Thorzain almost litterally 1a'd MC they reinstated teh energy so were would be some sort of counter to mass thor and especially mass thor with smart repair.
Oh back when the Thor was retarted, could stun lock an immortal and kill it at range like 9 and the maps where the size of a postage stamp? Yeah, that sucked.
But that isn't now, so the Thor might need a little love. Maybe longer range on its anti air attach and bonus damage to shields, including harden shields.
Wasn't that nerf done because blizzard didn't want mass Thor to be viable? I thought they said something like "that's not how the unit is supposed to work" and that nerf actually wasn't a balance concern but a gameplay concern. Not sure though.
With the Tempest and zlots i'm sure mass thor would get laughed at now hahahha
I just don't understand why Terran is nerfed so hard because of gameplay and not balance and protoss has seen 2 honest nerfs since 2010 gateway + Templars starting with 75 energy LOL
On November 19 2013 02:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, because PvT armies are made purely out of immortals, as opposed to a few immortals, if they are taken at all.
And everthing T has is armoured and in range of an immortal.
You probably build a good bunch of Immortals when your opponent uses strong mech units as his army core. Getting to shoot with a range 6 unit is not that hard as well.
Yeah, but without the harden shield, the immortal loses in an straight up fight. Since both units has a similar cost of around 300 minerals, it's really a question of if the immortal gets EMPrd or not. People often forget that the immortal costs almost as much as a colossi.
The flaw with the Thor is it takes 9 years to make one and they are slow as shit.
That isn't even the problem. It's like you say it's the EMP or not. After Thorzain almost litterally 1a'd MC they reinstated teh energy so were would be some sort of counter to mass thor and especially mass thor with smart repair.
Oh back when the Thor was retarted, could stun lock an immortal and kill it at range like 9 and the maps where the size of a postage stamp? Yeah, that sucked.
But that isn't now, so the Thor might need a little love. Maybe longer range on its anti air attach and bonus damage to shields, including harden shields.
Wasn't that nerf done because blizzard didn't want mass Thor to be viable? I thought they said something like "that's not how the unit is supposed to work" and that nerf actually wasn't a balance concern but a gameplay concern. Not sure though.
Yea, Blizz based this off two games of TvP between Thorzain and MC in the TSL tournament. Thorzain did a 0-2 timing attack with a ton of thor+raven pdd+banshee. This was the one small glimmer of hope we have had in 3 years about a new style of TvP that was viable for less than a month.
On November 19 2013 02:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, because PvT armies are made purely out of immortals, as opposed to a few immortals, if they are taken at all.
And everthing T has is armoured and in range of an immortal.
You probably build a good bunch of Immortals when your opponent uses strong mech units as his army core. Getting to shoot with a range 6 unit is not that hard as well.
Yeah, but without the harden shield, the immortal loses in an straight up fight. Since both units has a similar cost of around 300 minerals, it's really a question of if the immortal gets EMPrd or not. People often forget that the immortal costs almost as much as a colossi.
The flaw with the Thor is it takes 9 years to make one and they are slow as shit.
That isn't even the problem. It's like you say it's the EMP or not. After Thorzain almost litterally 1a'd MC they reinstated teh energy so were would be some sort of counter to mass thor and especially mass thor with smart repair.
Oh back when the Thor was retarted, could stun lock an immortal and kill it at range like 9 and the maps where the size of a postage stamp? Yeah, that sucked.
But that isn't now, so the Thor might need a little love. Maybe longer range on its anti air attach and bonus damage to shields, including harden shields.
Wasn't that nerf done because blizzard didn't want mass Thor to be viable? I thought they said something like "that's not how the unit is supposed to work" and that nerf actually wasn't a balance concern but a gameplay concern. Not sure though.
I think it was a little of both. Without an enegy cost on the bombard ability, Thors could one shot immortals before they would ever get a shot off. This was back when they had range 5, but it still didn't matter. I think blizzard just saw that one comming and knew that people would just mass them against Protoss. Also, the maps were super tiny back then and just taking a natural could be a rough thing for Protoss on some maps.
Making the Thor viable TvP again (not as ridiculous as it once was as Plansix noted, but good) would be fun. It doesn't need a massive overhaul I don't think, just a little touch up. Might make for some interesting builds.
On November 19 2013 03:39 Mortal wrote: Making the Thor viable TvP again (not as ridiculous as it once was as Plansix noted, but good) would be fun. It doesn't need a massive overhaul I don't think, just a little touch up. Might make for some interesting builds.
Yea definitely would shake things up. The tempest is a good counter to mech in general along with immortals so it would be interesting to come up with a composition that would be playable to that.
I hate the Thor and i hope it never becomes viable as a mass unit +support. Slow, 0 micro potential and 0 positional aspects. We say now that it would be fun because we are bored with bio but a few months of Thor spam and the game would be much worse IMO. It should have been replaced with that Goliath/ Mini Thor Blizzard showed a long time ago at some Blizzcon (NOT the Warhound HOTS BETA started with).
TvP like TvZ needs Tanks IMO. Units that promote a completely different style of play with different challenges from both players(for Terran: positioning instead of twitch reflex bio micro)
MKP would like a word with you about Thor micro. He made drop micro with a Thor look so cool. And who says we can't have a future with both Thors and tanks against Protoss? I know people want the super tank, but why not some Thors? They come out of the same building and everything.
On November 19 2013 03:53 Sapphire.lux wrote: I hate the Thor and i hope it never becomes viable as a mass unit +support. Slow, 0 micro potential and 0 positional aspects. We say now that it would be fun because we are bored with bio but a few months of Thor spam and the game would be much worse IMO. It should have been replaced with that Goliath/ Mini Thor Blizzard showed a long time ago at some Blizzcon (NOT the Warhound HOTS BETA started with).
TvP like TvZ needs Tanks IMO. Units that promote a completely different style of play with different challenges from both players(for Terran: positioning instead of twitch reflex bio micro)
Yeah, the Thor embodies everything wrong with many SC2 units; a horribly uninteresting 1a unit with no micro potential on its own, unresponsive, and so expensive supply-wise that you cannot split them, thus feeding the "whole army together" syndrom. Even the interaction with the Medivac doesn't add much. On top of that, it doesn't even perform well in its supposed anti-air role against mutas because the magic box negates them so easily. The transformation gimmick they implemented isn't interesting at all. The unit is just pretty much a failure on all plans.
I don't think anyone is saying that having thors is a bad thing, it's just that having a mass-thor army is not really different from having slightly bigger warhounds (well, still a bit better ). The tank creates awesome situations with space control, thors either kill stuff or die to stuff. MKP's thor-medivac micro was awesome, but how would it help?
On November 19 2013 03:58 Plansix wrote: MKP would like a word with you about Thor micro. He made drop micro with a Thor look so cool. And who says we can't have a future with both Thors and tanks against Protoss? I know people want the super tank, but why not some Thors? They come out of the same building and everything.
That was down to the Medivac not the Thor though. If i remember it was bio + a few Thors and medivac with some 2 base timing? It was a freak but cool game. Remember how frustrating Thor drops were in the beginning of WOL? lol A few Thors is OK, i merely said i don't want mass Thors, basically no more then 3 or 4, like Colossus come to think of it. Any more and it just looks ridiculous.
The problem i have with Thors plus Tanks is that you will only end up with a slow moving death ball and not positional mech. As far as i can tell there aren't a lot o people that want that, not the least Blizzard. Now mech where Tanks can function somewhat like in TvT, controlling space and making positioning be the difference, it's something else entirely.
On November 19 2013 03:53 Sapphire.lux wrote: I hate the Thor and i hope it never becomes viable as a mass unit +support. Slow, 0 micro potential and 0 positional aspects. We say now that it would be fun because we are bored with bio but a few months of Thor spam and the game would be much worse IMO. It should have been replaced with that Goliath/ Mini Thor Blizzard showed a long time ago at some Blizzcon (NOT the Warhound HOTS BETA started with).
TvP like TvZ needs Tanks IMO. Units that promote a completely different style of play with different challenges from both players(for Terran: positioning instead of twitch reflex bio micro)
Yeah, the Thor embodies everything wrong with many SC2 units; a horribly uninteresting 1a unit with no micro potential on its own, unresponsive, and so expensive supply-wise that you cannot split them, thus feeding the "whole army together" syndrom. Even the interaction with the Medivac doesn't add much. On top of that, it doesn't even perform well in its supposed anti-air role against mutas because the magic box negates them so easily. The transformation gimmick they implemented isn't interesting at all. The unit is just pretty much a failure on all plans.
On November 19 2013 02:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, because PvT armies are made purely out of immortals, as opposed to a few immortals, if they are taken at all.
And everthing T has is armoured and in range of an immortal.
You probably build a good bunch of Immortals when your opponent uses strong mech units as his army core. Getting to shoot with a range 6 unit is not that hard as well.
Yeah, but without the harden shield, the immortal loses in an straight up fight. Since both units has a similar cost of around 300 minerals, it's really a question of if the immortal gets EMPrd or not. People often forget that the immortal costs almost as much as a colossi.
The flaw with the Thor is it takes 9 years to make one and they are slow as !@#$%^&*.
That isn't even the problem. It's like you say it's the EMP or not. After Thorzain almost litterally 1a'd MC they reinstated teh energy so were would be some sort of counter to mass thor and especially mass thor with smart repair.
Oh back when the Thor was retarted, could stun lock an immortal and kill it at range like 9 and the maps where the size of a postage stamp? Yeah, that sucked.
But that isn't now, so the Thor might need a little love. Maybe longer range on its anti air attach and bonus damage to shields, including harden shields.
Thorzain only won that game cus MC had way fewer Immortals than Thorzain had Thors. Since Thors are more expensive to produce than Immortals, it shold be the other way around.
There was never any balance problem there - just protoss's who didn't know how to react, which is understandable as it was immediately patched after it was discovered.
Besides massing Immortals, protoss could also have mixed in VR's which would draw target fire from thors --> allows Protoss gateway units to be more efficient.
On November 19 2013 02:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, because PvT armies are made purely out of immortals, as opposed to a few immortals, if they are taken at all.
And everthing T has is armoured and in range of an immortal.
You probably build a good bunch of Immortals when your opponent uses strong mech units as his army core. Getting to shoot with a range 6 unit is not that hard as well.
Yeah, but without the harden shield, the immortal loses in an straight up fight. Since both units has a similar cost of around 300 minerals, it's really a question of if the immortal gets EMPrd or not. People often forget that the immortal costs almost as much as a colossi.
The flaw with the Thor is it takes 9 years to make one and they are slow as !@#$%^&*.
That isn't even the problem. It's like you say it's the EMP or not. After Thorzain almost litterally 1a'd MC they reinstated teh energy so were would be some sort of counter to mass thor and especially mass thor with smart repair.
Oh back when the Thor was retarted, could stun lock an immortal and kill it at range like 9 and the maps where the size of a postage stamp? Yeah, that sucked.
But that isn't now, so the Thor might need a little love. Maybe longer range on its anti air attach and bonus damage to shields, including harden shields.
Thorzain only won that game cus MC had way fewer Immortals than Thorzain had Thors. Since Thors are more expensive to produce than Immortals, it shold be the other way around.
There was never any balance problem there - just protoss's who didn't know how to react, which is understandable as it was immediately patched after it was discovered.
Besides massing Immortals, protoss could also have mixed in VR's which would draw target fire from thors --> allows Protoss gateway units to be more efficient.
I dont know if you ever had this situation but 3-4 Thors actually Obliterate VR's hahahaha. I'd say have gateway units Enable Tempests to wreck thors
On November 19 2013 03:53 Sapphire.lux wrote: I hate the Thor and i hope it never becomes viable as a mass unit +support. Slow, 0 micro potential and 0 positional aspects. We say now that it would be fun because we are bored with bio but a few months of Thor spam and the game would be much worse IMO. It should have been replaced with that Goliath/ Mini Thor Blizzard showed a long time ago at some Blizzcon (NOT the Warhound HOTS BETA started with).
TvP like TvZ needs Tanks IMO. Units that promote a completely different style of play with different challenges from both players(for Terran: positioning instead of twitch reflex bio micro)
Yeah, the Thor embodies everything wrong with many SC2 units; a horribly uninteresting 1a unit with no micro potential on its own, unresponsive, and so expensive supply-wise that you cannot split them, thus feeding the "whole army together" syndrom. Even the interaction with the Medivac doesn't add much. On top of that, it doesn't even perform well in its supposed anti-air role against mutas because the magic box negates them so easily. The transformation gimmick they implemented isn't interesting at all. The unit is just pretty much a failure on all plans.
A-fuggin-men. They need to get rid of it and replace it with something else
On November 19 2013 02:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, because PvT armies are made purely out of immortals, as opposed to a few immortals, if they are taken at all.
And everthing T has is armoured and in range of an immortal.
You probably build a good bunch of Immortals when your opponent uses strong mech units as his army core. Getting to shoot with a range 6 unit is not that hard as well.
Yeah, but without the harden shield, the immortal loses in an straight up fight. Since both units has a similar cost of around 300 minerals, it's really a question of if the immortal gets EMPrd or not. People often forget that the immortal costs almost as much as a colossi.
The flaw with the Thor is it takes 9 years to make one and they are slow as !@#$%^&*.
That isn't even the problem. It's like you say it's the EMP or not. After Thorzain almost litterally 1a'd MC they reinstated teh energy so were would be some sort of counter to mass thor and especially mass thor with smart repair.
Oh back when the Thor was retarted, could stun lock an immortal and kill it at range like 9 and the maps where the size of a postage stamp? Yeah, that sucked.
But that isn't now, so the Thor might need a little love. Maybe longer range on its anti air attach and bonus damage to shields, including harden shields.
Thorzain only won that game cus MC had way fewer Immortals than Thorzain had Thors. Since Thors are more expensive to produce than Immortals, it shold be the other way around.
There was never any balance problem there - just protoss's who didn't know how to react, which is understandable as it was immediately patched after it was discovered.
Besides massing Immortals, protoss could also have mixed in VR's which would draw target fire from thors --> allows Protoss gateway units to be more efficient.
I dont know if you ever had this situation but 3-4 Thors actually Obliterate VR's hahahaha. I'd say have gateway units Enable Tempests to wreck thors
I tested this extensively, and used the style months before Thorzain showed it vs MC. I had a high w/r with it, but just once in a while I would play against payers who knew (or were just lucky) and got the right unit composition against it, and thus I concluded it was a gimmicky strategy.
Regarding, VR's I specifically wrote "mix in" --> Don't mass VR's. Isolated VR's lose to Thors yes. But if you go Stalker + VR (in WOL) and 1a'ed vs Thors you would trade evenly (Cus thors automaticaly target fire VR's).
Now if start splitting up VRs a bit to minimize splash you become a bit cost effective. Further if you also use blink micro + abuse immobile of terran army you win comfortably. THe problem with the mass Thor style is that the skill cap with it is so low, as any type of micro with the Thor is just unpractical.
The worst thing you can do is to mix in a couple of Immortals (just). Then they become useless. Instead, the protoss player needs to match the terran in terms of ressources spent on the Thor with his Immortals.
EPT
). The tank creates awesome situations with space control, thors either kill stuff or die to stuff. MKP's thor-medivac micro was awesome, but how would it help?
