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Northern Ireland26005 Posts
On November 18 2013 18:26 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 12:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
It made sense because Toss had to invest in sentries or potentially get raped, so it freed up some gas. Especially as PvT pretty much necessitated the higher tech AoE units.
I don't see that as the case now.
PS those suggested nerfs were an either/or, not all at once. Even with quick Collosus Toss don't really get to retreat vs stimmed bio or most Zerg stuff without recalling anyway. Yeah I get it. I just am generally hesitant about most nerfs since I think it's all a bit precarious. What i'd want would be outright redesigns but if I go on too much Rabiator will ping in :p Actually while we're talking about repealing old buffs. Why did we reduce Infestor damage again? I hate chain fungal etc etc but I always get the feeling zerg needs some sort of reliable sort of damage against the bioball. (Kinda like how Collosi are great because there's some guaranteed set of damage you're always doing while storms sometimes end up looking a bit impotent from stimmed dancing.)
I was going to warn you about summoning him, but I'm sure he is already here, waiting. That said worse is I usually agree with him.
Going back to my Collosus point, slower Collosus would reward players like Dear who have the chops to reposition armies. Anyway yeah, nobody wants Infestors like the end of WoL, but yeah the projectile change was probably sufficient. It'd be nice to see ling/Infestors styles make a comeback, which would in turn make marine/tank a potentially better option than 4M.
With Ling/Infestor, I think one of the drawbacks is unless you choose to chain fungal medivacs, the Terran will retain a lot of them, so you get that dynamic coming into play. Plus that kind of comp synergises better on the road to Ultras.
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Northern Ireland26005 Posts
I'm with Ghanburigan.
In the era of Parting's peak PvT, it was damn cool to watch that style. Protoss AoE, if you go Templar only can't just keep up with the army and storm down, it needed repositioning and those trademark flanks were hard, that's why he was such an exciting player.
Collosus kind of trundle along with the army and dish out their damage vs any army that isn't constantly kiting. Siege tanks have a corresponding disadvantage and cool dynamic among AoE units due to their need to be stationary to dish their damage. Collosus shouldn't be a ripoff of tanks don't get me wrong, but they don't really have a weakness. Due to this, you rely on binary interactions with counter units to balance it, which I personally dislike.
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On November 18 2013 19:14 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 18:26 Sabu113 wrote:On November 18 2013 12:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
It made sense because Toss had to invest in sentries or potentially get raped, so it freed up some gas. Especially as PvT pretty much necessitated the higher tech AoE units.
I don't see that as the case now.
PS those suggested nerfs were an either/or, not all at once. Even with quick Collosus Toss don't really get to retreat vs stimmed bio or most Zerg stuff without recalling anyway. Yeah I get it. I just am generally hesitant about most nerfs since I think it's all a bit precarious. What i'd want would be outright redesigns but if I go on too much Rabiator will ping in :p Actually while we're talking about repealing old buffs. Why did we reduce Infestor damage again? I hate chain fungal etc etc but I always get the feeling zerg needs some sort of reliable sort of damage against the bioball. (Kinda like how Collosi are great because there's some guaranteed set of damage you're always doing while storms sometimes end up looking a bit impotent from stimmed dancing.) I was going to warn you about summoning him, but I'm sure he is already here, waiting. That said worse is I usually agree with him. Going back to my Collosus point, slower Collosus would reward players like Dear who have the chops to reposition armies. Anyway yeah, nobody wants Infestors like the end of WoL, but yeah the projectile change was probably sufficient. It'd be nice to see ling/Infestors styles make a comeback, which would in turn make marine/tank a potentially better option than 4M. With Ling/Infestor, I think one of the drawbacks is unless you choose to chain fungal medivacs, the Terran will retain a lot of them, so you get that dynamic coming into play. Plus that kind of comp synergises better on the road to Ultras.
All they need to do is make fungal damage better is to make it damage bio units and nothing else. If Fungal was purely an anti bio tool it'd stop it being completely and utterly broken like it was before. It could still root mechanical units, but it wouldn't kill them, which not only makes sense balance wise but also logically it makes sense.
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On November 18 2013 19:30 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 19:14 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 18 2013 18:26 Sabu113 wrote:On November 18 2013 12:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
It made sense because Toss had to invest in sentries or potentially get raped, so it freed up some gas. Especially as PvT pretty much necessitated the higher tech AoE units.
I don't see that as the case now.
PS those suggested nerfs were an either/or, not all at once. Even with quick Collosus Toss don't really get to retreat vs stimmed bio or most Zerg stuff without recalling anyway. Yeah I get it. I just am generally hesitant about most nerfs since I think it's all a bit precarious. What i'd want would be outright redesigns but if I go on too much Rabiator will ping in :p Actually while we're talking about repealing old buffs. Why did we reduce Infestor damage again? I hate chain fungal etc etc but I always get the feeling zerg needs some sort of reliable sort of damage against the bioball. (Kinda like how Collosi are great because there's some guaranteed set of damage you're always doing while storms sometimes end up looking a bit impotent from stimmed dancing.) I was going to warn you about summoning him, but I'm sure he is already here, waiting. That said worse is I usually agree with him. Going back to my Collosus point, slower Collosus would reward players like Dear who have the chops to reposition armies. Anyway yeah, nobody wants Infestors like the end of WoL, but yeah the projectile change was probably sufficient. It'd be nice to see ling/Infestors styles make a comeback, which would in turn make marine/tank a potentially better option than 4M. With Ling/Infestor, I think one of the drawbacks is unless you choose to chain fungal medivacs, the Terran will retain a lot of them, so you get that dynamic coming into play. Plus that kind of comp synergises better on the road to Ultras. All they need to do is make fungal damage better is to make it damage bio units and nothing else. If Fungal was purely an anti bio tool it'd stop it being completely and utterly broken like it was before. It could still root mechanical units, but it wouldn't kill them, which not only makes sense balance wise but also logically it makes sense.
With stronger vikings now, I don't know how zerg would deal with skyterran if fungal can't kill them tbh. I already think late game scenario terran is favored if they can reach vikings/raven comp.
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On November 18 2013 19:32 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 19:30 Qikz wrote:On November 18 2013 19:14 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 18 2013 18:26 Sabu113 wrote:On November 18 2013 12:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
It made sense because Toss had to invest in sentries or potentially get raped, so it freed up some gas. Especially as PvT pretty much necessitated the higher tech AoE units.
I don't see that as the case now.
PS those suggested nerfs were an either/or, not all at once. Even with quick Collosus Toss don't really get to retreat vs stimmed bio or most Zerg stuff without recalling anyway. Yeah I get it. I just am generally hesitant about most nerfs since I think it's all a bit precarious. What i'd want would be outright redesigns but if I go on too much Rabiator will ping in :p Actually while we're talking about repealing old buffs. Why did we reduce Infestor damage again? I hate chain fungal etc etc but I always get the feeling zerg needs some sort of reliable sort of damage against the bioball. (Kinda like how Collosi are great because there's some guaranteed set of damage you're always doing while storms sometimes end up looking a bit impotent from stimmed dancing.) I was going to warn you about summoning him, but I'm sure he is already here, waiting. That said worse is I usually agree with him. Going back to my Collosus point, slower Collosus would reward players like Dear who have the chops to reposition armies. Anyway yeah, nobody wants Infestors like the end of WoL, but yeah the projectile change was probably sufficient. It'd be nice to see ling/Infestors styles make a comeback, which would in turn make marine/tank a potentially better option than 4M. With Ling/Infestor, I think one of the drawbacks is unless you choose to chain fungal medivacs, the Terran will retain a lot of them, so you get that dynamic coming into play. Plus that kind of comp synergises better on the road to Ultras. All they need to do is make fungal damage better is to make it damage bio units and nothing else. If Fungal was purely an anti bio tool it'd stop it being completely and utterly broken like it was before. It could still root mechanical units, but it wouldn't kill them, which not only makes sense balance wise but also logically it makes sense. With stronger vikings now, I don't know how zerg would deal with skyterran if fungal can't kill them tbh. I already think late game scenario terran is favored if they can reach vikings/raven comp.
do you mean against mech? I'm not sure who's favored in the MU at the super super late game stages but I do know that 1 good fungal can easily end the game if we're talking about a tank line/viking/raven vs swarm host/infestor/static defense.
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On November 18 2013 19:32 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 19:30 Qikz wrote:On November 18 2013 19:14 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 18 2013 18:26 Sabu113 wrote:On November 18 2013 12:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
It made sense because Toss had to invest in sentries or potentially get raped, so it freed up some gas. Especially as PvT pretty much necessitated the higher tech AoE units.
I don't see that as the case now.
PS those suggested nerfs were an either/or, not all at once. Even with quick Collosus Toss don't really get to retreat vs stimmed bio or most Zerg stuff without recalling anyway. Yeah I get it. I just am generally hesitant about most nerfs since I think it's all a bit precarious. What i'd want would be outright redesigns but if I go on too much Rabiator will ping in :p Actually while we're talking about repealing old buffs. Why did we reduce Infestor damage again? I hate chain fungal etc etc but I always get the feeling zerg needs some sort of reliable sort of damage against the bioball. (Kinda like how Collosi are great because there's some guaranteed set of damage you're always doing while storms sometimes end up looking a bit impotent from stimmed dancing.) I was going to warn you about summoning him, but I'm sure he is already here, waiting. That said worse is I usually agree with him. Going back to my Collosus point, slower Collosus would reward players like Dear who have the chops to reposition armies. Anyway yeah, nobody wants Infestors like the end of WoL, but yeah the projectile change was probably sufficient. It'd be nice to see ling/Infestors styles make a comeback, which would in turn make marine/tank a potentially better option than 4M. With Ling/Infestor, I think one of the drawbacks is unless you choose to chain fungal medivacs, the Terran will retain a lot of them, so you get that dynamic coming into play. Plus that kind of comp synergises better on the road to Ultras. All they need to do is make fungal damage better is to make it damage bio units and nothing else. If Fungal was purely an anti bio tool it'd stop it being completely and utterly broken like it was before. It could still root mechanical units, but it wouldn't kill them, which not only makes sense balance wise but also logically it makes sense. With stronger vikings now, I don't know how zerg would deal with skyterran if fungal can't kill them tbh. I already think late game scenario terran is favored if they can reach vikings/raven comp.
I would consider toss air still stronger, and zerg can counter that also.
Against raven/viking comp just make ultralisks and kill everything. If he adds a few battlecruisers, just make ultralisks and kill everything. In case fo mech player you can also do swarmhosts + queens (and some spores), with good transfuses the swarmhosts will survive quite some seekers.
If the terran does have quite some battlecruisers, go spores + vipers (and other stuff of course). Just pull in the battlecruisers. Effectively with yamato battlecruisers one-shot vipers, and vipers one-shot battlecruisers by pulling them on top of spores/army. But vipers are alot cheaper.
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On November 18 2013 19:39 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 19:32 Faust852 wrote:On November 18 2013 19:30 Qikz wrote:On November 18 2013 19:14 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 18 2013 18:26 Sabu113 wrote:On November 18 2013 12:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
It made sense because Toss had to invest in sentries or potentially get raped, so it freed up some gas. Especially as PvT pretty much necessitated the higher tech AoE units.
I don't see that as the case now.
PS those suggested nerfs were an either/or, not all at once. Even with quick Collosus Toss don't really get to retreat vs stimmed bio or most Zerg stuff without recalling anyway. Yeah I get it. I just am generally hesitant about most nerfs since I think it's all a bit precarious. What i'd want would be outright redesigns but if I go on too much Rabiator will ping in :p Actually while we're talking about repealing old buffs. Why did we reduce Infestor damage again? I hate chain fungal etc etc but I always get the feeling zerg needs some sort of reliable sort of damage against the bioball. (Kinda like how Collosi are great because there's some guaranteed set of damage you're always doing while storms sometimes end up looking a bit impotent from stimmed dancing.) I was going to warn you about summoning him, but I'm sure he is already here, waiting. That said worse is I usually agree with him. Going back to my Collosus point, slower Collosus would reward players like Dear who have the chops to reposition armies. Anyway yeah, nobody wants Infestors like the end of WoL, but yeah the projectile change was probably sufficient. It'd be nice to see ling/Infestors styles make a comeback, which would in turn make marine/tank a potentially better option than 4M. With Ling/Infestor, I think one of the drawbacks is unless you choose to chain fungal medivacs, the Terran will retain a lot of them, so you get that dynamic coming into play. Plus that kind of comp synergises better on the road to Ultras. All they need to do is make fungal damage better is to make it damage bio units and nothing else. If Fungal was purely an anti bio tool it'd stop it being completely and utterly broken like it was before. It could still root mechanical units, but it wouldn't kill them, which not only makes sense balance wise but also logically it makes sense. With stronger vikings now, I don't know how zerg would deal with skyterran if fungal can't kill them tbh. I already think late game scenario terran is favored if they can reach vikings/raven comp. I would consider toss air still stronger, and zerg can counter that also. Against raven/viking comp just make ultralisks and kill everything. If he adds a few battlecruisers, just make ultralisks and kill everything. In case fo mech player you can also do swarmhosts + queens (and some spores), with good transfuses the swarmhosts will survive quite some seekers. If the terran does have quite some battlecruisers, go spores + vipers (and other stuff of course). Just pull in the battlecruisers. Effectively with yamato battlecruisers one-shot vipers, and vipers one-shot battlecruisers by pulling them on top of spores/army. But vipers are alot cheaper.
You speak of a very late game scenario and I agree with you, but I think mech is becoming more and more viable now, by playing mech, you can reach 200/200 at the 16min mark with 10+ vikings and some raven, and I don't think the zerg can deal with it by making ultralisk. But I'm not a mech user so i'm not that confident about what i'm saying tho.
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On November 18 2013 19:39 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 19:32 Faust852 wrote:On November 18 2013 19:30 Qikz wrote:On November 18 2013 19:14 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 18 2013 18:26 Sabu113 wrote:On November 18 2013 12:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
It made sense because Toss had to invest in sentries or potentially get raped, so it freed up some gas. Especially as PvT pretty much necessitated the higher tech AoE units.
I don't see that as the case now.
PS those suggested nerfs were an either/or, not all at once. Even with quick Collosus Toss don't really get to retreat vs stimmed bio or most Zerg stuff without recalling anyway. Yeah I get it. I just am generally hesitant about most nerfs since I think it's all a bit precarious. What i'd want would be outright redesigns but if I go on too much Rabiator will ping in :p Actually while we're talking about repealing old buffs. Why did we reduce Infestor damage again? I hate chain fungal etc etc but I always get the feeling zerg needs some sort of reliable sort of damage against the bioball. (Kinda like how Collosi are great because there's some guaranteed set of damage you're always doing while storms sometimes end up looking a bit impotent from stimmed dancing.) I was going to warn you about summoning him, but I'm sure he is already here, waiting. That said worse is I usually agree with him. Going back to my Collosus point, slower Collosus would reward players like Dear who have the chops to reposition armies. Anyway yeah, nobody wants Infestors like the end of WoL, but yeah the projectile change was probably sufficient. It'd be nice to see ling/Infestors styles make a comeback, which would in turn make marine/tank a potentially better option than 4M. With Ling/Infestor, I think one of the drawbacks is unless you choose to chain fungal medivacs, the Terran will retain a lot of them, so you get that dynamic coming into play. Plus that kind of comp synergises better on the road to Ultras. All they need to do is make fungal damage better is to make it damage bio units and nothing else. If Fungal was purely an anti bio tool it'd stop it being completely and utterly broken like it was before. It could still root mechanical units, but it wouldn't kill them, which not only makes sense balance wise but also logically it makes sense. With stronger vikings now, I don't know how zerg would deal with skyterran if fungal can't kill them tbh. I already think late game scenario terran is favored if they can reach vikings/raven comp. I would consider toss air still stronger, and zerg can counter that also. Against raven/viking comp just make ultralisks and kill everything. If he adds a few battlecruisers, just make ultralisks and kill everything. In case fo mech player you can also do swarmhosts + queens (and some spores), with good transfuses the swarmhosts will survive quite some seekers. If the terran does have quite some battlecruisers, go spores + vipers (and other stuff of course). Just pull in the battlecruisers. Effectively with yamato battlecruisers one-shot vipers, and vipers one-shot battlecruisers by pulling them on top of spores/army. But vipers are alot cheaper.
It's not that easy. Voidrays are stronger combat units and Templar are better support than basically anything Terran can muster for a combat. But then again, you also can't push tanks or ravens back with swarm hosts like you do with templar and colossi. And though Protoss has Tempests to siege a zerg, they require vision which is quite hard to maintain. Meanwhile a Terran usually knows your positioning exactly in such stages of the game because there are so many scans available and so Yamato and Vikings can pick off units easier.
Whether or not fungal is needed to deal with that stuff... Not sure and if I had to guess I'd say no. But making it impossible to damage mechanical would make it useless 90% of the time and it's far from stronk now. It would have to rape bio so incredibly hard in direct combat to be useful like that (~50damage; since it's even worse against drops and hellions and mines and medivacs in combat) that it would be far from interesting. More like a "if a fungal hits you, you lose the combat; so try to outmicro and avoid them completely". I don't think those binary relations are interesting.
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On November 18 2013 19:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm with Ghanburigan.
In the era of Parting's peak PvT, it was damn cool to watch that style. Protoss AoE, if you go Templar only can't just keep up with the army and storm down, it needed repositioning and those trademark flanks were hard, that's why he was such an exciting player.
Collosus kind of trundle along with the army and dish out their damage vs any army that isn't constantly kiting. Siege tanks have a corresponding disadvantage and cool dynamic among AoE units due to their need to be stationary to dish their damage. Collosus shouldn't be a ripoff of tanks don't get me wrong, but they don't really have a weakness. Due to this, you rely on binary interactions with counter units to balance it, which I personally dislike.
Often people talk about the collosus like it was a simple a-move unit. I think that is just not true. Whenever is see pros use collosi there is still a lot of room for improvement.
Just a few points:
-If you just a-click your army across the map, the collosus often ends up at the front because of its cliff walking ability. If you are sloppy with your army movement you can easily loose your important source of AOE that way. This also happens in pro play quite often. Because of that, the proposed slower collosus would actually make it far easier to move toss armies around, because the collosi would naturally end up at the back of the army were they should be.
-In-fight collosus micro is still kind of underdeveloped. Often players don't pull them back a bit when they are taking serious damage. Focus fire to maximize splash damage is also quite underused. There is quite a lot you can do to make your collosi last longer and deal more damage. Just one saved collosus in the next battle 90 seconds late can win you the game.
And, honestly, at least in PvT in the end it is never HT or Collosus because they are best if they are used as a combination.
HTs are very good at defending Collosi against vikings while collosi are good at killing of ghosts before they can land their EMPs. HTs are better at defending while collosi are better at pressuring. Both are needed against a fully developed terran army.
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I'm still hopeing we will see these changes, or similar, in future patches:
edit: Because the changes of november 11 are worthless and depressing.
Hydra movespeed upgrade removed, hydra now have it as default.
Roaches now able to morph into Swamhost for a cost.
SWARMHOST BURROW AND UNBURROW NOW MOVED TO DIFFEREN KEYS THAN STANDARD ZERG BURROW
Lurker re-introduced to HotS.
Hydra now able to morph into lurker.
Hydra Den moved to Hatch-Tech.
Hydra animation reworked, hydra now able to properly stutter-step.
Zerg commander voice(Queen(U NEED MOAR INERALSSS)) Now replaced with Abathur.
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Collosus kind of trundle along with the army and dish out their damage vs any army that isn't constantly kiting. Siege tanks have a corresponding disadvantage and cool dynamic among AoE units due to their need to be stationary to dish their damage. Collosus shouldn't be a ripoff of tanks don't get me wrong, but they don't really have a weakness. Due to this, you rely on binary interactions with counter units to balance it, which I personally dislike.
Colossi have weaknesses. They have horrible health per cost, more comparable to casters than to other massive units. And they are the only ground unit vulnerable to air to air attacks, but are incapable of hitting air.
The issue is, these weaknesses make Colossi utterly reliant on having a large number of gateway units in support, to provide anti-air and to keep the Colossi out of range of the bulk of the enemy's army. In other words, they work best in a deathball, and are all but worthless without one.
Making Colossi slower wouldn't actually change this dynamic at all. It wouldn't even really make the deathball slower, because Protoss already has to get HTs as well and keep them with their army, and HTs are already slow as fuck. It might nerf a few specific early Colossus timing pushes, but thats about it.
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Northern Ireland26005 Posts
Health/cost ratio aside, being vulnerable to air attacks isn't a particular weakness, to me it's more a 'build x counter unit' interaction.
Making them slower, considering they must pretty much be death balled at least makes that deathball harder to control and less mobile overall.
I think all but the most biased Terran respects a good PvT that the Protoss player wins with great Templar usage. Templar-only (well, in lieu of Collosi) is pretty damn fun to watch IMO. They can be cost efficient hiding all over the place in a way Collosus aren't.
Tbh I doubt the unit will ever change, Blizzard appear to only act when whine is monstrous/the game is clearly imbalances, or if it's to do with mech in some way (while never doing the root and branch reform that would make it actually work)
Games relatively balanced though, in truth.
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On November 18 2013 21:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Health/cost ratio aside, being vulnerable to air attacks isn't a particular weakness, to me it's more a 'build x counter unit' interaction.
They are not particularily vulnerable to air attacks. They are just targetable by air and ground attacks.
In PvZ the main counters to Colossi are the ground/air attack of the mutalisk and the ground/air abduct of the viper and the air attack of Corruptors. And in WoL a main counter to it was the AtG of the Broodlords.
It's not like Corruptors are the only choice in HotS. It's just Terran bio that has it so narrow with vikings being the only choice. And that is because tanks/thors/BCs - which would be very good as well - suck.
It's far from "build unit X against Colossus" in theory. It's just that gameplay/balancewise the other choices for Terran are shit.
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On November 18 2013 21:07 cloneThorN wrote:
I'm still hopeing we will see these changes, or similar, in future patches:
edit: Because the changes of november 11 are worthless and depressing.
Hydra movespeed upgrade removed, hydra now have it as default.
Roaches now able to morph into Swamhost for a cost.
SWARMHOST BURROW AND UNBURROW NOW MOVED TO DIFFEREN KEYS THAN STANDARD ZERG BURROW
Lurker re-introduced to HotS.
Hydra now able to morph into lurker.
Hydra Den moved to Hatch-Tech.
Hydra animation reworked, hydra now able to properly stutter-step.
Zerg commander voice(Queen(U NEED MOAR INERALSSS)) Now replaced with Abathur.
You said 1 Correct thing.... The November 11 patch was depressing LOL. As for your other changes you should probably just keep playing broodwar because what you are asking is zerg bias and also BW bias which there is nothing wrong with that. I love BW forever <3 but sc2 will never be what BW was at least not at this rate.
I was thinking of the Match up as a whole in TvP in the next couple months I think we are going to start seeing more and more of Taeja Style. To me its just crazy to think about the Crowd Control Protoss has vses what Terran actually has. I know they are different races with different dynamic and there is a reason for the crowd control especially in PvZ. I wanted to list them and show how effective they are vses the Terran crowd control and their Anti-CC effective units to show somewhat of a major flaw....
First and Foremost Sentry with Force Field and a soft cc with guardian shield vs terran. (especially with Zealots and a fast 2-2 your zealots wind up only taking 2-3 damage from Marines with Guardian shield +2 armor from projectile +2 armor from ups and +1 armor from natural and depending on your opening as Terran you will only have +1 and about 3/4 of the way done to +2 with most builds which this timing hits at about 13 mins only way to defend it is to go hellbat and sim city your natural and sac your third otherwise you will get brought to your knees.)
Second is the Timewarp. This Spell is seriously the most flexible and probably the most powerful in the fact that it synchronizes so well with just about everything protoss has offensively and defensively. ( Basically put if you are a Protoss and havn't used a MSC Bait with TW with either an oracle follow up or blink stalker attack you are not utilizing one of the most effective complimentary all-in tools you have.)The nexus cannon + TW can be devastating along with 2 sentries you will never get out of losing all of your early poke with these tools at hand and there is no microing around this......
Third is the Colo its DPS is so high that once you get to 4 Colo not much ground army can actually stand against it and you HAVE TO HAVE TO get air to fight it there is no otherway at that point.....
Fourth is the most powerful of them all.....Storm. Psi-Storm was exactly the reason you could NOT make Bio in BW (that and the reaver which could be thought of a switch to colo just now is an A move unit LOL) The utility of a HT is Insane they are a Counter caster and a Counter of units any units it does massive AOE and is super powerful once coverged.
Which brings us to the Fifth the Archon. Archons synchronize so beautiful with zealots to fight zlots as a bio ball you have to move as a pack when you pack up archons just destroy your bio ball and it turns into a protoss A move and a terran kite fest which can be fun but puts terran at a significant stretch of multi-task which can be exploited by zlot run bys. especially since they are now massive and can't slow them its very hard to fight an archon zlot timing which can be a follow up of either a blink stalker attack which does significantly weaken this push or a DT opener into an archon zlot timing which is actually one of the stronger attacks.
The Sixth is the Mothership which hasn't seen much play because of the utility of the MSC outweighing the Mothership in general. Still worth mentioning the fact of the perma-cloak and the vortex that acts as a zoning and CC.
Now the Terran part and why i even brought this discussion up in the patch discussion.....
First is the Hellbat / Hellion they are both fragile and limited in their own way but this is made up by the cost and the rapid production. Hellbats used to be cost efficient and proficient at fighting the zlot compositions but are now nerfed to the ground. hellions are fast and are only good against Zlots because they are easily picked off because of how fragile they are.
Second is the siege tank. The recent buff really only made tanks more volatile vses Roach Hydra compositions and in the Terran match up as a whole. Just about everything protoss has in one way or another can counter Tanks either with charge blink immortal and any stargate base play. Trying to replace a tank while not as expensive as a Colo the cost efficiency is non-existent for tanks where Colo is EXTREMELY cost efficient.
Third is the Raven. The HSM is strong and Energy / Cost efficient the one and truly powerful Terran has is pidgeon holed by the templar tech and the HSM is Very Very easy to Block and actually use it against your opponent if casted on your own units you just run it into their army lol. So make this truly effective you use it as a Zoning tool forcing units to run the otherway to get out of the range or use it on a sacrificial unit to use it on the enemy army.
Fourth and last is Ghost. This is the anti casting unit / emp which takes 75 to do 100 damage only to shields. Snipes take 50 energy to kill HT just like the otherway around but the HT can instant cast vses your snipe where you have ot use 2 Ghosts to kill 1 HT where 1 HT animation allows it to kill ghosts instantly so the micro is so delicate that vs a good protoss and a good terran you can use 1 HT to kill multiple ghosts where you need multiple ghosts to kill 1 HT.
The fact of bringing this all up is the dynamic of the now game we face. As a terran to fight protoss effectively you have to outmass them in counters but in the current meta the task is insurmountable and requires A ton of Micro / Macro for Terran and with units that don't really synchronize and only act as individual counters to the protoss army and nothing else. Whereas the protoss army synchronizes in a perfect symphony of units and are made as the command hand and control the game which requires Micro / Macro just not even close to the amount Terran has to do to stay on even footing. Especially when one Storm can destroy your army when you look away for 1/2 a second lol. So this big parady and monologue and facts are here to say one thing. To make the game bearable in the lategame when protoss has all these units which is now easier to get to with the new oracle and many other openers is to make a .5 seconds longer to channel storm in the animation alone between the HT casting at .25 seconds and the storm itself casting down taking .25 seconds longer. I think this would actually make the late game more of a micro fight that isn't so insurmountable and devastating and still make it possible to use HT to defeat your opponent the same way but isn't such a landslide......
The AOE alone coming from Protoss with the MSC protecting you in any situation is very hard to defeat for anyone going all the way up to top tier players I think this is the ONLY way to compensate without breaking PVZ. There is other thing that need to be addressed in the early game to make it equally as difficult to play protoss as it does terran in the early game and open up more opportunities so the match up is so pidgeonholed but i think this would make it a lot easier to fight Protoss in general and make it more exciting to see Terran players have a chance in the late game
Last Edit: The biggest point is the fact that because Protoss has so much Crowd control and AOE and the AOE and Crowd Control synchronizes so well protoss is almost liek a race that doesn't belong as the other 2 races have units far from this. So a proposed nerf for ONE of the AOEs needs to happen so that Late game isn't such a nightmare.
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Fourth is the most powerful of them all.....Storm. Psi-Storm was exactly the reason you could NOT make Bio in BW
1. storm did 112damage over 4seconds in bw. In sc2, it do 80damage over 4seconds
2. Marines had 40hp. In sc2, they have 55hp
3. There was no marauder. In sc2, you have marauder which has 125hp
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Just to expound on the "Protoss Feels like it doesn't belong in SC2". I think they are the Epitome of what an RTS race should be with many viable options to play and chess like strategies. Which is the analogy i wanted to put into my post. Protoss is like playing chess where its a game of positioning / Forcing your opponent to make a move he doesn't want to by being aggressive and doing checkmate by a string of Tech such as 2 Oracle rush into VR 3 gate ALl in . Or DT rush into zlot archon all in it forces you to react and put you in a position that makes it harder to defend...
Where Terran is playing checkers sacrificing as little as possible to do as much damage as possible and hopefully you come out ahead and aren't out of position in the end. There are no force outs or "Checkmates" involved in Terran its simply where did you trade and was it efficient enough?
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On November 18 2013 19:30 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 19:14 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 18 2013 18:26 Sabu113 wrote:On November 18 2013 12:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
It made sense because Toss had to invest in sentries or potentially get raped, so it freed up some gas. Especially as PvT pretty much necessitated the higher tech AoE units.
I don't see that as the case now.
PS those suggested nerfs were an either/or, not all at once. Even with quick Collosus Toss don't really get to retreat vs stimmed bio or most Zerg stuff without recalling anyway. Yeah I get it. I just am generally hesitant about most nerfs since I think it's all a bit precarious. What i'd want would be outright redesigns but if I go on too much Rabiator will ping in :p Actually while we're talking about repealing old buffs. Why did we reduce Infestor damage again? I hate chain fungal etc etc but I always get the feeling zerg needs some sort of reliable sort of damage against the bioball. (Kinda like how Collosi are great because there's some guaranteed set of damage you're always doing while storms sometimes end up looking a bit impotent from stimmed dancing.) I was going to warn you about summoning him, but I'm sure he is already here, waiting. That said worse is I usually agree with him. Going back to my Collosus point, slower Collosus would reward players like Dear who have the chops to reposition armies. Anyway yeah, nobody wants Infestors like the end of WoL, but yeah the projectile change was probably sufficient. It'd be nice to see ling/Infestors styles make a comeback, which would in turn make marine/tank a potentially better option than 4M. With Ling/Infestor, I think one of the drawbacks is unless you choose to chain fungal medivacs, the Terran will retain a lot of them, so you get that dynamic coming into play. Plus that kind of comp synergises better on the road to Ultras. All they need to do is make fungal damage better is to make it damage bio units and nothing else. If Fungal was purely an anti bio tool it'd stop it being completely and utterly broken like it was before. It could still root mechanical units, but it wouldn't kill them, which not only makes sense balance wise but also logically it makes sense.
Not balance related but I was always confused why certain zerg abilities could target mechanical units. Like that neural parasite, you telling me that it manages to infest the crew in an entire BC within a split second and that when it disappears everybody immediately gets back to their senses and resumes fighting for the Terran army? :o
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On November 19 2013 01:07 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Just to expound on the "Protoss Feels like it doesn't belong in SC2". I think they are the Epitome of what an RTS race should be with many viable options to play and chess like strategies. Which is the analogy i wanted to put into my post. Protoss is like playing chess where its a game of positioning / Forcing your opponent to make a move he doesn't want to by being aggressive and doing checkmate by a string of Tech such as 2 Oracle rush into VR 3 gate ALl in . Or DT rush into zlot archon all in it forces you to react and put you in a position that makes it harder to defend...
Where Terran is playing checkers sacrificing as little as possible to do as much damage as possible and hopefully you come out ahead and aren't out of position in the end. There are no force outs or "Checkmates" involved in Terran its simply where did you trade and was it efficient enough?
The problem is that some protoss options come at a direct expense of the options of other races. Like the mothership core, which is the single greatest invention for PvP and enables protoss to open gate first in PvZ comes at the expense of weakening all XvP early game strategies (which was direly needed for PvP).
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On November 18 2013 22:53 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +Fourth is the most powerful of them all.....Storm. Psi-Storm was exactly the reason you could NOT make Bio in BW 1. storm did 112damage over 4seconds in bw. In sc2, it do 80damage over 4seconds 2. Marines had 40hp. In sc2, they have 55hp 3. There was no marauder. In sc2, you have marauder which has 125hp
The game engine on BW didn't allow a storm to kill 20 marines because of the clumping mechanic.
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On November 18 2013 22:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 21:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Health/cost ratio aside, being vulnerable to air attacks isn't a particular weakness, to me it's more a 'build x counter unit' interaction. They are not particularily vulnerable to air attacks. They are just targetable by air and ground attacks. In PvZ the main counters to Colossi are the ground/air attack of the mutalisk and the ground/air abduct of the viper and the air attack of Corruptors. And in WoL a main counter to it was the AtG of the Broodlords. It's not like Corruptors are the only choice in HotS. It's just Terran bio that has it so narrow with vikings being the only choice. And that is because tanks/thors/BCs - which would be very good as well - suck. It's far from "build unit X against Colossus" in theory. It's just that gameplay/balancewise the other choices for Terran are shit.
Actually Thor would be better if it could attack collossi with their air attack, which they already seem to prioritize to ground attack. I'm still not sure why blizzard won't allow it as it seem to make sense from a logical point of view...
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On November 19 2013 01:32 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 22:01 Big J wrote:On November 18 2013 21:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Health/cost ratio aside, being vulnerable to air attacks isn't a particular weakness, to me it's more a 'build x counter unit' interaction. They are not particularily vulnerable to air attacks. They are just targetable by air and ground attacks. In PvZ the main counters to Colossi are the ground/air attack of the mutalisk and the ground/air abduct of the viper and the air attack of Corruptors. And in WoL a main counter to it was the AtG of the Broodlords. It's not like Corruptors are the only choice in HotS. It's just Terran bio that has it so narrow with vikings being the only choice. And that is because tanks/thors/BCs - which would be very good as well - suck. It's far from "build unit X against Colossus" in theory. It's just that gameplay/balancewise the other choices for Terran are shit. Actually Thor would be better if it could attack collossi with their air attack, which they already seem to prioritize to ground attack. I'm still not sure why blizzard won't allow it as it seem to make sense from a logical point of view...
I think you underestimate the Thors ground attack:
Ground DPS:
46.9 (+4.7)
Air DPS:
8 (+1.3) (Explosive)
+8 (+1.3) vs Light (Explosive)
12 (+1) (High Impact)
Though I guess the extra 3range for a first shot might come in handy. I think units always use their highest dps weapon automatically for the target they prioritize, though I'm not sure.
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EPT
