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On November 17 2013 12:37 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 11:12 ZenithM wrote:On November 17 2013 11:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:On November 17 2013 10:34 AxiomBlurr wrote:On November 17 2013 10:01 mishimaBeef wrote:
nice, 3t, 3z, 2p in HSC top 8 Yup...this is the hard data... ToD, MC, Stardust, Huk, Socke, Nightend, Hasuobs, Mana, and Harstem all fall...Not saying these Toss players are Code S calibre,,,just saying they all know how to micro Oracles to great effect...One can only assume the Oracle buff has not been the massive high end player game changer that the salty ones here are suggesting... Now it is harder for you gold scrubs...but then again so is any strat semi well executed... Put the crying to bed please...move on...the oracle is not broken like the hellbat was... GG GL HF. Yeah this. I mean, obviously its just one tournament so its hard to draw too many conclusions, but based on what we've seen so far, the Oracle buff hasn't in any way made Toss unbeatable. Terran have looked just fine against Protoss. I don't know man, this tournament really is not representative of whether or not a race is dominant. Like, Protoss wise, only HerO would be able to win that event. Korean Terran and Zerg presence was overall stronger (even in the first rounds). Um what? Are you serious? Stardust won a DH, MC was at Blizzcon. Mana has been solid particularly in ATC. Not making a particularly good argument here. There was 1 Terran from Blizzcon here(Taeja) and 0 Zergs to my knowledge
Stardust is a bit of a one-shot since his at the time new&special PvZ style was able to carry him through a lot of DH. MC is nowhere near the top end of Korean protosses anymore, and BabyK got kind of lucky with his second group. Mana and Hasu have been mediocre-good in ATC and that's about it. ToD, incontrol, socke, nightend, harstem et al are all on the bottom end of foreigners that play protoss. Compare that the zergs - stephano, targa, zenio, moman, and arguably dimaga aren't exactly as strong as the other attending zergs, but there's still TLO, Ret, Symbol/Leenock/Hyun, Nerchio, and Scarlett. And the Terrans are almost all strong performers. Taeja and Jjakji are both extremely well-performing atm. Happy, Kas, and Dayshi are all consistently good foreigners - Dayshi perhaps falling off a bit, but the Empire warriors have been good since WoL. Thorzain ~meh~, especially with his recent transition into student, but Heromarine is a really young player and he's been improving since WoL.
Overall the protoss lineup has a lot less players that are strong performers recently or at all...
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Northern Ireland27190 Posts
I'm surprised Mana hasn't done more in HoTS, he was pretty damn strong in WoL among foreign Protoss players.
I didn't see all that much of HSC that I felt was dictated by the changes, it's hard to tell really. Dayshi against Scarlett maybe the former got very little in the way of good WM hits but it was hard to tell if it was due to the latter's micro, the former burying them quite late or what.
Dayshi vs HerO saw mech absolutely crushed, but he botched a siege and I don't think he really planned out his build for eventualities such as his Hellion timing not working.
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On November 17 2013 12:52 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 12:37 Wingblade wrote:On November 17 2013 11:12 ZenithM wrote:On November 17 2013 11:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:On November 17 2013 10:34 AxiomBlurr wrote:On November 17 2013 10:01 mishimaBeef wrote:
nice, 3t, 3z, 2p in HSC top 8 Yup...this is the hard data... ToD, MC, Stardust, Huk, Socke, Nightend, Hasuobs, Mana, and Harstem all fall...Not saying these Toss players are Code S calibre,,,just saying they all know how to micro Oracles to great effect...One can only assume the Oracle buff has not been the massive high end player game changer that the salty ones here are suggesting... Now it is harder for you gold scrubs...but then again so is any strat semi well executed... Put the crying to bed please...move on...the oracle is not broken like the hellbat was... GG GL HF. Yeah this. I mean, obviously its just one tournament so its hard to draw too many conclusions, but based on what we've seen so far, the Oracle buff hasn't in any way made Toss unbeatable. Terran have looked just fine against Protoss. I don't know man, this tournament really is not representative of whether or not a race is dominant. Like, Protoss wise, only HerO would be able to win that event. Korean Terran and Zerg presence was overall stronger (even in the first rounds). Um what? Are you serious? Stardust won a DH, MC was at Blizzcon. Mana has been solid particularly in ATC. Not making a particularly good argument here. There was 1 Terran from Blizzcon here(Taeja) and 0 Zergs to my knowledge Stardust is a bit of a one-shot since his at the time new&special PvZ style was able to carry him through a lot of DH. MC is nowhere near the top end of Korean protosses anymore, and BabyK got kind of lucky with his second group. Mana and Hasu have been mediocre-good in ATC and that's about it. ToD, incontrol, socke, nightend, harstem et al are all on the bottom end of foreigners that play protoss. Compare that the zergs - stephano, targa, zenio, moman, and arguably dimaga aren't exactly as strong as the other attending zergs, but there's still TLO, Ret, Symbol/Leenock/Hyun, Nerchio, and Scarlett. And the Terrans are almost all strong performers. Taeja and Jjakji are both extremely well-performing atm. Happy, Kas, and Dayshi are all consistently good foreigners - Dayshi perhaps falling off a bit, but the Empire warriors have been good since WoL. Thorzain ~meh~, especially with his recent transition into student, but Heromarine is a really young player and he's been improving since WoL. Overall the protoss lineup has a lot less players that are strong performers recently or at all...
MC is a lot closer to being a top protoss than TLO, Ret, Symbol/Leenock, Nerchio, and Scarlett are to being top zergs.
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On November 17 2013 14:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 12:52 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 17 2013 12:37 Wingblade wrote:On November 17 2013 11:12 ZenithM wrote:On November 17 2013 11:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:On November 17 2013 10:34 AxiomBlurr wrote:On November 17 2013 10:01 mishimaBeef wrote:
nice, 3t, 3z, 2p in HSC top 8 Yup...this is the hard data... ToD, MC, Stardust, Huk, Socke, Nightend, Hasuobs, Mana, and Harstem all fall...Not saying these Toss players are Code S calibre,,,just saying they all know how to micro Oracles to great effect...One can only assume the Oracle buff has not been the massive high end player game changer that the salty ones here are suggesting... Now it is harder for you gold scrubs...but then again so is any strat semi well executed... Put the crying to bed please...move on...the oracle is not broken like the hellbat was... GG GL HF. Yeah this. I mean, obviously its just one tournament so its hard to draw too many conclusions, but based on what we've seen so far, the Oracle buff hasn't in any way made Toss unbeatable. Terran have looked just fine against Protoss. I don't know man, this tournament really is not representative of whether or not a race is dominant. Like, Protoss wise, only HerO would be able to win that event. Korean Terran and Zerg presence was overall stronger (even in the first rounds). Um what? Are you serious? Stardust won a DH, MC was at Blizzcon. Mana has been solid particularly in ATC. Not making a particularly good argument here. There was 1 Terran from Blizzcon here(Taeja) and 0 Zergs to my knowledge Stardust is a bit of a one-shot since his at the time new&special PvZ style was able to carry him through a lot of DH. MC is nowhere near the top end of Korean protosses anymore, and BabyK got kind of lucky with his second group. Mana and Hasu have been mediocre-good in ATC and that's about it. ToD, incontrol, socke, nightend, harstem et al are all on the bottom end of foreigners that play protoss. Compare that the zergs - stephano, targa, zenio, moman, and arguably dimaga aren't exactly as strong as the other attending zergs, but there's still TLO, Ret, Symbol/Leenock/Hyun, Nerchio, and Scarlett. And the Terrans are almost all strong performers. Taeja and Jjakji are both extremely well-performing atm. Happy, Kas, and Dayshi are all consistently good foreigners - Dayshi perhaps falling off a bit, but the Empire warriors have been good since WoL. Thorzain ~meh~, especially with his recent transition into student, but Heromarine is a really young player and he's been improving since WoL. Overall the protoss lineup has a lot less players that are strong performers recently or at all... MC is a lot closer to being a top protoss than TLO, Ret, Symbol/Leenock, Nerchio, and Scarlett are to being top zergs.
Sure, but Leenock/Symbol/Hyun are higher on the ladder of korean zergs than MC is on a list of Korean protosses (imo), and the rest of the listed zergs are pretty high on the top foreigner list~
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Can someone with more understanding of the game answer something for me?
With regard to the tank buff, how does this help Terran in a TvZ or TvP, matches where the best defense against the common assaults was bio? I mean, I get that they shoot faster (once more every ~30 sec?) but is that worth the extra investment into tanks?
For example, if someone is playing TvZ, the most common Zerg strategy is to invest heavily in air with sling/bane for mobility. I understand nerfing the widow mine to dial back some of it's damage, but buffing the tank doesn't seem to help with the primary threat (Zerg air)? If mines are perceived as being too strong (or overused) how does buffing a unit like the tank fill the gap created by nerfing the mine when the mine at least dealt with the primary problem Zerg air presented?
Nerfing the mine and buffing the tank isn't going to make Zergs stop going muta - it will only exacerbate the prevalence of the strategy, don't you think?
Is there something I'm missing here?
FWIW: As of recently I play random, prior to that I was a Z or T player; so I'm not biased and looking for support here. I just don't get it. I'm not sure what the benefit of the tank buff was - unless it's purely for boosting mech - but even then, isn't straight mech weak against air (and Protoss in general)?
Signed,
Confused.
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On November 17 2013 17:30 Mjolnir wrote:
Can someone with more understanding of the game answer something for me?
With regard to the tank buff, how does this help Terran in a TvZ or TvP, matches where the best defense against the common assaults was bio? I mean, I get that they shoot faster (once more every ~30 sec?) but is that worth the extra investment into tanks?
For example, if someone is playing TvZ, the most common Zerg strategy is to invest heavily in air with sling/bane for mobility. I understand nerfing the widow mine to dial back some of it's damage, but buffing the tank doesn't seem to help with the primary threat (Zerg air)? If mines are perceived as being too strong (or overused) how does buffing a unit like the tank fill the gap created by nerfing the mine when the mine at least dealt with the primary problem Zerg air presented?
Nerfing the mine and buffing the tank isn't going to make Zergs stop going muta - it will only exacerbate the prevalence of the strategy, don't you think?
Is there something I'm missing here?
FWIW: As of recently I play random, prior to that I was a Z or T player; so I'm not biased and looking for support here. I just don't get it. I'm not sure what the benefit of the tank buff was - unless it's purely for boosting mech - but even then, isn't straight mech weak against air (and Protoss in general)?
Signed,
Confused.
The idea behind the buff was "variety" in the TvZ matchup. Terrans only do 4M in midgame / lategame TvZ, because it's the only way to play the matchup against competent zergs who understand how to play against Mech.
David and friends view Siege Tanks as both an alternative and a complimentary unit to the Widow Mine, because they both do large amounts of splash damage. David and friends believed that a 0.2 attack speed increase would compensate for changing Widow Mine splash from flat damage into a gradient, and encourage Terrans to use Siege Tanks in TvZ.
They believe the attack speed increase will help mech somewhat. No, Mech isn't weak vs Zerg air, but yes, it is weak against Protoss in general.
- by the way, we are all confused.
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The new Roach speed looks really good, especially in ZvP. \
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lol @ HSC protoss results
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On November 18 2013 00:41 awesomoecalypse wrote:
The new Roach speed looks really good, especially in ZvP. \
I have rolled a lot of Toss since this buff because of it, it looks really strong. Way too early to say if it's OP though :b but I am loving it. And I am a diamond player, so my experience might not be valid when it comes to balance.
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On November 17 2013 07:01 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 06:49 Dynamitekid wrote:
1) They should make the tank do 70 damage against armored units like in broodwar.
And that would be unbalanced
So you think a Unit is unbalanced because it does huge amounts of damage? Whats with the Tempest and its 90 (!!) damage against massive aka "I counter other Units just by being in the game" ?
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Northern Ireland27190 Posts
It's a pretty common trend in TvZ for T to start raping Zerg when they hit 3/3.
I rarely see Zergs hitting it before a Terran player, even if they're hitting 1/1 and 2/2 first. That makes the transition to hive tech units even more difficult, it seems to be at this phase that top Zergs lose to top Ts.
Is this worth looking at, maybe unlocking 3/3 at the Infestation pit? You'd still need adrenal glands to maximise it.
Some of the issues seem to be Bio scaling so well with upgrades, in addition to invariably being ahead on ups. Zergs chief lategame weapon, techswitching isn't even as powerful. Broods popping out vs 0-0 Vikings was a possibility in the past, whereas now even panic Vikings will have ups as well.
This is not to say TvZ is broken, but I just noticed that Zergs seem to hang pretty damn well and then die when 3-3 hits and theyre teching to hive so often, more food for thought than anything else.
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On November 18 2013 05:01 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's a pretty common trend in TvZ for T to start raping Zerg when they hit 3/3.
I rarely see Zergs hitting it before a Terran player, even if they're hitting 1/1 and 2/2 first. That makes the transition to hive tech units even more difficult, it seems to be at this phase that top Zergs lose to top Ts.
Is this worth looking at, maybe unlocking 3/3 at the Infestation pit? You'd still need adrenal glands to maximise it.
Some of the issues seem to be Bio scaling so well with upgrades, in addition to invariably being ahead on ups. Zergs chief lategame weapon, techswitching isn't even as powerful. Broods popping out vs 0-0 Vikings was a possibility in the past, whereas now even panic Vikings will have ups as well.
This is not to say TvZ is broken, but I just noticed that Zergs seem to hang pretty damn well and then die when 3-3 hits and theyre teching to hive so often, more food for thought than anything else.
yeah, because some Pro-Zergs still haven't gotten the message to stay on Lair, 2-2, get 100000000000 mutalisks, defend and deny the 4th or 5th base of Terran and wait till he leaves at 35mins due to starving. Hive before 25mins is gambling at Korean prolevel, because they will attack you and then you lack hive+infestation pit+upgrade money+ultralisk den money in defence and expansion denying. It's simply inferior and unnecessary to do and no need to patch anything there.
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Northern Ireland27190 Posts
Because big Muta balls every game will get pretty stale I guess?
It'd be cool if Zergs got more chance to use different comps available to them, tweak styles according to maps etc.
That said, Hyun has roach/hydraed his way pretty well today!
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Widow mines so broken. Plz remove Drilling Claws from game Blizzard.
User was warned for this post
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Is anyone expecting a P nerf in the near future, if so, what would it be? I haven't been playing much 1v1 (waiting for the pros to get back to where they need to be lol) but I have spoken to and seen some Protoss players say that they didn't need to Oracle buff and that it is OP... Thoughts anyone?
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On November 18 2013 07:03 Deep Cocoa wrote:
Is anyone expecting a P nerf in the near future, if so, what would it be? I haven't been playing much 1v1 (waiting for the pros to get back to where they need to be lol) but I have spoken to and seen some Protoss players say that they didn't need to Oracle buff and that it is OP... Thoughts anyone?
meh. terran said the same thing when they added medivac emergency thrusters.
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On November 18 2013 07:03 Deep Cocoa wrote:
Is anyone expecting a P nerf in the near future, if so, what would it be? I haven't been playing much 1v1 (waiting for the pros to get back to where they need to be lol) but I have spoken to and seen some Protoss players say that they didn't need to Oracle buff and that it is OP... Thoughts anyone?
maybe they will bring back upgrade costs to same as other races. Or give some mech units + vs shields. But I doubt it.
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Northern Ireland27190 Posts
Upgrade cost nerf, slower moving Collosus or a nerf to photon overcharge , probs the mana cost increased or the MsC having less peak mana
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Mines are actually still very very good! Marines with good upgrades still shoot down mutas very fast. Upgrade merger is a huge buff, I think terran will be ok. Still, some way to do early agression vs toss and more usefull tanks in tvp and tvz would be appreciated.
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On November 18 2013 05:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 05:01 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's a pretty common trend in TvZ for T to start raping Zerg when they hit 3/3.
I rarely see Zergs hitting it before a Terran player, even if they're hitting 1/1 and 2/2 first. That makes the transition to hive tech units even more difficult, it seems to be at this phase that top Zergs lose to top Ts.
Is this worth looking at, maybe unlocking 3/3 at the Infestation pit? You'd still need adrenal glands to maximise it.
Some of the issues seem to be Bio scaling so well with upgrades, in addition to invariably being ahead on ups. Zergs chief lategame weapon, techswitching isn't even as powerful. Broods popping out vs 0-0 Vikings was a possibility in the past, whereas now even panic Vikings will have ups as well.
This is not to say TvZ is broken, but I just noticed that Zergs seem to hang pretty damn well and then die when 3-3 hits and theyre teching to hive so often, more food for thought than anything else. yeah, because some Pro-Zergs still haven't gotten the message to stay on Lair, 2-2, get 100000000000 mutalisks, defend and deny the 4th or 5th base of Terran and wait till he leaves at 35mins due to starving. Hive before 25mins is gambling at Korean prolevel, because they will attack you and then you lack hive+infestation pit+upgrade money+ultralisk den money in defence and expansion denying. It's simply inferior and unnecessary to do and no need to patch anything there.
thats so not true, if u follow a lot of ZvT most of the game Z stay in 2-2 get slaughter rite after T hit 3-3, and there are ppl screaming why not get hive and 3-3. The thing is 3-3 for T is so easy to get, especially when they have nothing to do with gas except for upgrades and its really fast. Z been good w/ muta but now T know that they just get 1 or 2 Thor the problem solve, I can see that Z gonna have a tough time for some months before a new patch or maybe a new way to play this. Z always playing a catching-up game in ZvT.
Btw, making Z get 3-3 after infestation may sound fine in term of catching up in upgrade but having 3-3 before hive is just not Z anymore
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EPT
