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On November 17 2013 06:30 Lunareste wrote:
so I've been trying to catch a couple streams but I don't ever see any of the streamers meching much.
How is the Siege Tank buff looking? Does it make a difference in game at all?
some say it helped a little bit vs SH .. and the rest says it doesnt have a difference ... the difference is it shots 1 more time every 30 seconds
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This oracle buff seems ill-conceived. PvP went from being fairly stable and actually quite fun to being a complete coinflip again because of it. The buff does not allow good players do more impressive micro, it just lets bad players keep their oracles alive for far longer than they would have been able to before the patch.
David Kim's justifications for it are completely backwards.
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On November 17 2013 06:49 Dynamitekid wrote:
1) They should make the tank do 70 damage against armored units like in broodwar.
And that would be unbalanced
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On November 17 2013 06:54 Ben... wrote:
This oracle buff seems ill-conceived. PvP went from being fairly stable and actually quite fun to being a complete coinflip again because of it. The buff does not allow good players do more impressive micro, it just lets bad players keep their oracles alive for far longer than they would have been able to before the patch.
David Kim's justifications for it are completely backwards.
Indeed. Only the acceleration buff would have made so much more sense. I haven't lost all hope that the balance team will realise their mistake and revert the speed buff with 2.1.
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On November 17 2013 06:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 06:46 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 06:43 Plansix wrote:On November 17 2013 06:40 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 06:27 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:19 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 06:12 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:01 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 05:55 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 05:44 plogamer wrote:
[quote]
Protoss scared of mech? Love it. I'm scared of having to play stupid games. I don't want to be forced to open proxy oracles or do all-ins. "Air games" in SC 2 are the worst, to play or to spectate. A step above games involving swarm hosts. It makes no sense, atm, though. Terran does nothing, yet while you're transitioning to air, because you have to and both sides only have a few air units out atm, they already have 3-2 on their air weapons? I hate these stupid "solutions." Yeah. Terran air transitions is such a nuisance in TvP right now. You can chronoboost your upgrades and you have T2 units that don't such balls like terran mech units. No one is forcing you to open proxy oracles or do all ins. Opening macro is a perfectly viable option. This is another reason TvP is annoying. Protoss just dictates the early game. Protoss all ins - you better scout or guess the right all in and defend pretty much flawlessly, or lose. Protoss expands - you better expand as well in order to not end up behind as the chances for any 1 base all in or 1 base play into expand is gonna do anything useful are very slim. I dealt with the same scenario in BW. I have no sympathy for you. Because if you're good, you know how to scout/count pylons and use a scan at an appropriate time. If you can't do that, you wouldn't be good regardless. If I wanted to be able to match 3-2 air upgrades, in the mid game... I'd need another cyber. I would be spending 1050 minerals and 900 gas, just to be on equal footing, upgrade wise. And, I would still have to upgrade my ground army? This is in no way way practical. No, I don't want to rush tempest and play air vs air, the most boring games in SC 2, sans swarm hosts, simply because Blizzard lacks creativity. So much so, creativity is now coming up with ideas on what to remove. Is that like the opposite of genius, when you don't come up with new things and can only axe things? This is ridiculous. Since when did Protoss ground have no answer to ground Terran mech? Immortals? Chargelots? Archons? All units very good against Terran ground. If you have HTs for archons, you can also feedback Banshees, Ravens, Battlecruisers to soften them up. So what specifically is your issue? Believe it or not, but not all maps are created equally and it's pretty easy to be in a defensive posture with a lot of tanks sieged up, with units/obstacles in the way. If Terran doesn't have to move much, on a map that is fairly easy to split, you need air units against anyone with a functioning keyboard. I can understand thoughts like "I believe Terran should have a 500 mineral/500 gas" adv or w/e. A handicap for the race with an adv atm... I just have no idea how removing the need to research something is the first thing to try out. How about, I dunno, simply reducing the cost? I'm just in awe of how lazy/bad they must be at this job. I get that it must be hard, but anyone could do this. Stop the trolling now. You've had combined ground upgrades for gateway and robo units since SC1. And all of the protoss ranged units cost gas, what is your point? Why no love for the Zealot? All air/mech units except the hellion cost gas. If you can exclude a unit then so can I ! I won't go into a discussion with you Plansix. You are just a spamming troll. Next week you will have 13000 posts. The zealot is a ranged unit? When did this happen? The point is the that every race has its ups and downs. The terran have the best ranged unit in the game for the low low cost of 50 minerals.
And marines are not mech units. My god man. Did you even read the nested quote? Because it seems like you're just arguing for the sake of it.
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Damn playa saying mech is strong vs protoss is enough to see he's a huge troll, stop feeding him already.
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I'd rather have Tanks just do full damage to shields rather than any bonus damage.
Armored damage isn't really the issue, Stalkers alone are terrible against Tanks (Blink Stalkers can make it a bit dicey), Immortals have their shields and Colossi shouldn't be facing Tanks to begin with.
It's the non-armored damage that is the problem.
Only 35 damage against Chargelots and Archons, and a pitiful 10 damage versus Immortals.
Sure EMP helps against one of those but Ghosts + Mech is just far too expensive.
You'll end with a few Tanks, one or two Ghosts and no army to back it up.
It won't matter what units Protoss throws at you then as long as he has enough.
Protoss has so much that works great against Mech that even if you get a good Mech army vs one composition, you'll just die to another.
Either Mech lacks Anti-Air, or it lacks Ghosts for EMP or it lacks having enough units by trying to get both enough Anti-Air and Ghosts.
Tempests/High Templar, Archons/Chargelots, Blink Stalkers/Immortals, Void Rays all work amazingly well against Mech.
Add to that the complete immobility of the Mech army with the much more powerful harassment capabilities available to Protoss in SC2 with Warp Gate, Warp Prisms and now Oracles as well.
With Bio, the only tech switches you need to worry about is Vikings vs Ghosts and you can stall for time by doing drops and being everywhere at once. The core units of Marine/Marauder/Medivac stays the same but Mech has to nearly completely turn around its unit composition.
Mech also has much weaker (counter)harass.
Protoss either just warps in whatever units work best or Photon Overcharge is called in or a Recall is done.
The fun fact is that the support units themselves (Ghosts, Vikings, Banshees, Ravens) are all pretty decent but the core Mech army they have to support just can't stand on its own legs against a Protoss army.
The amount of support units needed for that just weakens the Mech army too much.
I'd rather see Blizzard just try something massive with Tanks on a test map and just see how it goes.
Maybe it'll be hugely overpowered, but then we atleast have a point from which things can be scaled back.
Right now, Tanks are a rarity outside of TvT, which is a real shame as I really loved both executing and watching Marine/Tank/Medivac vs Ling/Bane/Muta in WoL TvZ and still wish to see Tanks used against a smart Protoss who is doing a;; the right things and is still struggling with them.
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On November 17 2013 07:10 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 06:49 Plansix wrote:On November 17 2013 06:46 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 06:43 Plansix wrote:On November 17 2013 06:40 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 06:27 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:19 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 06:12 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:01 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 05:55 playa wrote:
[quote]
I'm scared of having to play stupid games. I don't want to be forced to open proxy oracles or do all-ins. "Air games" in SC 2 are the worst, to play or to spectate. A step above games involving swarm hosts.
It makes no sense, atm, though. Terran does nothing, yet while you're transitioning to air, because you have to and both sides only have a few air units out atm, they already have 3-2 on their air weapons? I hate these stupid "solutions." Yeah. Terran air transitions is such a nuisance in TvP right now. You can chronoboost your upgrades and you have T2 units that don't such balls like terran mech units. No one is forcing you to open proxy oracles or do all ins. Opening macro is a perfectly viable option. This is another reason TvP is annoying. Protoss just dictates the early game. Protoss all ins - you better scout or guess the right all in and defend pretty much flawlessly, or lose. Protoss expands - you better expand as well in order to not end up behind as the chances for any 1 base all in or 1 base play into expand is gonna do anything useful are very slim. I dealt with the same scenario in BW. I have no sympathy for you. Because if you're good, you know how to scout/count pylons and use a scan at an appropriate time. If you can't do that, you wouldn't be good regardless. If I wanted to be able to match 3-2 air upgrades, in the mid game... I'd need another cyber. I would be spending 1050 minerals and 900 gas, just to be on equal footing, upgrade wise. And, I would still have to upgrade my ground army? This is in no way way practical. No, I don't want to rush tempest and play air vs air, the most boring games in SC 2, sans swarm hosts, simply because Blizzard lacks creativity. So much so, creativity is now coming up with ideas on what to remove. Is that like the opposite of genius, when you don't come up with new things and can only axe things? This is ridiculous. Since when did Protoss ground have no answer to ground Terran mech? Immortals? Chargelots? Archons? All units very good against Terran ground. If you have HTs for archons, you can also feedback Banshees, Ravens, Battlecruisers to soften them up. So what specifically is your issue? Believe it or not, but not all maps are created equally and it's pretty easy to be in a defensive posture with a lot of tanks sieged up, with units/obstacles in the way. If Terran doesn't have to move much, on a map that is fairly easy to split, you need air units against anyone with a functioning keyboard. I can understand thoughts like "I believe Terran should have a 500 mineral/500 gas" adv or w/e. A handicap for the race with an adv atm... I just have no idea how removing the need to research something is the first thing to try out. How about, I dunno, simply reducing the cost? I'm just in awe of how lazy/bad they must be at this job. I get that it must be hard, but anyone could do this. Stop the trolling now. You've had combined ground upgrades for gateway and robo units since SC1. And all of the protoss ranged units cost gas, what is your point? Why no love for the Zealot? All air/mech units except the hellion cost gas. If you can exclude a unit then so can I ! I won't go into a discussion with you Plansix. You are just a spamming troll. Next week you will have 13000 posts. The zealot is a ranged unit? When did this happen? The point is the that every race has its ups and downs. The terran have the best ranged unit in the game for the low low cost of 50 minerals. And marines are not mech units. My god man. Did you even read the nested quote? Because it seems like you're just arguing for the sake of it.
welcome to Plansix, he hopes you enjoy your stay
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And all of the protoss ranged units cost gas, what is your point?
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Why no love for the Zealot?
All air/mech units except the hellion cost gas.
If you can exclude a unit then so can I !
I won't go into a discussion with you Plansix. You are just a spamming troll.
Next week you will have 13000 posts.
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The zealot is a ranged unit? When did this happen? The point is the that every race has its ups and downs. The terran have the best ranged unit in the game for the low low cost of 50 minerals.
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And marines are not mech units. My god man. Did you even read the nested quote? Because it seems like you're just arguing for the sake of it.
Lol. Reading comprehension here.
WHY WONT YOU ARGUE RATIONALLY YOU TROLL.
Actually I was responding to your point that
STOP TROLLING ME HURRDURR.
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On November 17 2013 07:35 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +
And all of the protoss ranged units cost gas, what is your point?
---
Why no love for the Zealot?
All air/mech units except the hellion cost gas.
If you can exclude a unit then so can I !
I won't go into a discussion with you Plansix. You are just a spamming troll.
Next week you will have 13000 posts.
--
The zealot is a ranged unit? When did this happen? The point is the that every race has its ups and downs. The terran have the best ranged unit in the game for the low low cost of 50 minerals.
--
And marines are not mech units. My god man. Did you even read the nested quote? Because it seems like you're just arguing for the sake of it.
Lol. Reading comprehension here. WHY WONT YOU ARGUE RATIONALLY YOU TROLL. Actually I was responding to your point that STOP TROLLING ME HURRDURR.
He is to angry to read, far to angry. Also, apparently zealots are ranged? Who knew?
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On November 17 2013 07:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 07:35 Sabu113 wrote:
And all of the protoss ranged units cost gas, what is your point?
---
Why no love for the Zealot?
All air/mech units except the hellion cost gas.
If you can exclude a unit then so can I !
I won't go into a discussion with you Plansix. You are just a spamming troll.
Next week you will have 13000 posts.
--
The zealot is a ranged unit? When did this happen? The point is the that every race has its ups and downs. The terran have the best ranged unit in the game for the low low cost of 50 minerals.
--
And marines are not mech units. My god man. Did you even read the nested quote? Because it seems like you're just arguing for the sake of it.
Lol. Reading comprehension here. WHY WONT YOU ARGUE RATIONALLY YOU TROLL. Actually I was responding to your point that STOP TROLLING ME HURRDURR. He is to angry to read, far to angry. Also, apparently zealots are ranged? Who knew?
Technically, they are! (Just a joke, obviously.)
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The game has never been more balanced at high levels. The games in all matchups (even PvP) are amazing to watch.
It will be interesting to see how Blizzard continues to evolve the game in Legacy of the Void. I think a lot of us players/fans hope Blizzard looks to Broodwar for inspiration. Maybe they should hire Day[9] to represent the community on their design team.
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On November 17 2013 07:20 Thezzy wrote:
I'd rather have Tanks just do full damage to shields rather than any bonus damage.
Armored damage isn't really the issue, Stalkers alone are terrible against Tanks (Blink Stalkers can make it a bit dicey), Immortals have their shields and Colossi shouldn't be facing Tanks to begin with.
It's the non-armored damage that is the problem.
Only 35 damage against Chargelots and Archons, and a pitiful 10 damage versus Immortals.
Sure EMP helps against one of those but Ghosts + Mech is just far too expensive.
You'll end with a few Tanks, one or two Ghosts and no army to back it up.
It won't matter what units Protoss throws at you then as long as he has enough.
Protoss has so much that works great against Mech that even if you get a good Mech army vs one composition, you'll just die to another.
Either Mech lacks Anti-Air, or it lacks Ghosts for EMP or it lacks having enough units by trying to get both enough Anti-Air and Ghosts.
Tempests/High Templar, Archons/Chargelots, Blink Stalkers/Immortals, Void Rays all work amazingly well against Mech.
Add to that the complete immobility of the Mech army with the much more powerful harassment capabilities available to Protoss in SC2 with Warp Gate, Warp Prisms and now Oracles as well.
With Bio, the only tech switches you need to worry about is Vikings vs Ghosts and you can stall for time by doing drops and being everywhere at once. The core units of Marine/Marauder/Medivac stays the same but Mech has to nearly completely turn around its unit composition.
Mech also has much weaker (counter)harass.
Protoss either just warps in whatever units work best or Photon Overcharge is called in or a Recall is done.
The fun fact is that the support units themselves (Ghosts, Vikings, Banshees, Ravens) are all pretty decent but the core Mech army they have to support just can't stand on its own legs against a Protoss army.
The amount of support units needed for that just weakens the Mech army too much.
I'd rather see Blizzard just try something massive with Tanks on a test map and just see how it goes.
Maybe it'll be hugely overpowered, but then we atleast have a point from which things can be scaled back.
Right now, Tanks are a rarity outside of TvT, which is a real shame as I really loved both executing and watching Marine/Tank/Medivac vs Ling/Bane/Muta in WoL TvZ and still wish to see Tanks used against a smart Protoss who is doing a;; the right things and is still struggling with them.
It just sucks that Protoss has such hard counters against everything and that the WM phased the tank out of existence in TvZ. And when I first heard about the no siege tank upgrade for the tanks I thought that HotS would have so much more tank play and early pushouts with tanks. The fact that vipers can punish tank play so hard and swarmhosts against mech is just not rewarding, makes tanks (and mech by extension) not viable in most situations. I actually wonder what would have happened if they kept the warhound and actually tweaked it to actually make it work and not be so overpowered.
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nice, 3t, 3z, 2p in HSC top 8
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On November 17 2013 07:35 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +
And all of the protoss ranged units cost gas, what is your point?
---
Why no love for the Zealot?
All air/mech units except the hellion cost gas.
If you can exclude a unit then so can I !
I won't go into a discussion with you Plansix. You are just a spamming troll.
Next week you will have 13000 posts.
--
The zealot is a ranged unit? When did this happen? The point is the that every race has its ups and downs. The terran have the best ranged unit in the game for the low low cost of 50 minerals.
--
And marines are not mech units. My god man. Did you even read the nested quote? Because it seems like you're just arguing for the sake of it.
Lol. Reading comprehension here. WHY WONT YOU ARGUE RATIONALLY YOU TROLL. Actually I was responding to your point that STOP TROLLING ME HURRDURR.
A) Cut out the nested quotes about Terran mech being too strong against Protoss.
B) Focus on a tangent about marines being ranged, as if it was relevant to the discussion.
C) READING COMPREHENSION.
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On November 17 2013 10:01 mishimaBeef wrote:
nice, 3t, 3z, 2p in HSC top 8
Yup...this is the hard data...
ToD, MC, Stardust, Huk, Socke, Nightend, Hasuobs, Mana, and Harstem all fall...Not saying these Toss players are Code S calibre,,,just saying they all know how to micro Oracles to great effect...One can only assume the Oracle buff has not been the massive high end player game changer that the salty ones here are suggesting...
Now it is harder for you gold scrubs...but then again so is any strat semi well executed...
Put the crying to bed please...move on...the oracle is not broken like the hellbat was...
GG GL HF.
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On November 17 2013 10:09 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 07:35 Sabu113 wrote:
And all of the protoss ranged units cost gas, what is your point?
---
Why no love for the Zealot?
All air/mech units except the hellion cost gas.
If you can exclude a unit then so can I !
I won't go into a discussion with you Plansix. You are just a spamming troll.
Next week you will have 13000 posts.
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The zealot is a ranged unit? When did this happen? The point is the that every race has its ups and downs. The terran have the best ranged unit in the game for the low low cost of 50 minerals.
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And marines are not mech units. My god man. Did you even read the nested quote? Because it seems like you're just arguing for the sake of it.
Lol. Reading comprehension here. WHY WONT YOU ARGUE RATIONALLY YOU TROLL. Actually I was responding to your point that STOP TROLLING ME HURRDURR. A) Cut out the nested quotes about Terran mech being too strong against Protoss. B) Focus on a tangent about marines being ranged, as if it was relevant to the discussion. C) READING COMPREHENSION.
I. You make a diversion from the main topic then go nuts when he addresses your diversion. I was ready to buy into Mr.Lawyer being argumentative but you're being hysterical.
II. Touche Dwf.
III.
Poll: Would you trade a nerf to marine range and combat shield for70-85 Damage Tanks + No warp in (1) (10) 43% No way Jose (10) 43% 70->85 Damage Tanks (2) 9% 70-85 Damage Tanks + Other unit (1) 4% 23 total votes Your vote: Would you trade a nerf to marine range and combat shield for (Vote): 70-85 Damage Tanks + No warp in (1)
(Vote): 70-85 Damage Tanks + Other unit
(Vote): 70->85 Damage Tanks
(Vote): No way Jose
I am imagining the horrors of Marine/Tank TvP being a big consideration in why they didn't want to overboost the tank dps. So would you trade your marines for a good immobile but tough to kill mech?
(Yeah forgot TvZ in my haste -.- edited poll for null option)
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No way I take a nerf to the marine haha. Better switch race fast if that were to happen.
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EPT
