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starcraft 2 reminds me a lot of quake live
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On November 17 2013 06:01 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 05:55 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 05:44 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 05:29 ZenithM wrote:On November 17 2013 05:24 playa wrote:
It seems like if they want to buff one race, then they feel compelled to give the other races a buff, too, to appease them. I don't want "random" buffs, though. I'm also worried about terran having their widow mine nerfed and the "make up" buff. They have tried this same weapons/armor thing before, in beta, and it was deemed too strong/good. What has changed? I don't get it.
You can't plan on beating mech, as protoss, with just ground. I'm not saying it's impossible, but eventually you want to switch to air. I could see games becoming very, what's another word for gay... as protoss feels pressured to keep up with air upgrades, thus they just rush air tech as fast as possible and then it's skytoss vs skyterran.
I feel that removing upgrades, etc, should be a last resort, if even acceptable then. If you have to start removing upgrades... you should replace your balance team. That's lazy and embarrassing, and I hope they feel ashamed. Really earned their salary. Should put me on the team, so if toss is ever struggling I can be the brilliant guy that comes up with which protoss upgrade they shouldn't have to research anymore. I hate seeing this direction. Not everyone is GM, and not everyone is GM at balancing games. Please hire some new people with real ideas.
Just proxy oracle the fuck out of Terrans, you'll see, you won't have time to see much meching, if that's what you're afraid of. Protoss scared of mech? Love it. I'm scared of having to play stupid games. I don't want to be forced to open proxy oracles or do all-ins. "Air games" in SC 2 are the worst, to play or to spectate. A step above games involving swarm hosts. It makes no sense, atm, though. Terran does nothing, yet while you're transitioning to air, because you have to and both sides only have a few air units out atm, they already have 3-2 on their air weapons? I hate these stupid "solutions." Yeah. Terran air transitions is such a nuisance in TvP right now. You can chronoboost your upgrades and you have T2 units that don't such balls like terran mech units. No one is forcing you to open proxy oracles or do all ins. Opening macro is a perfectly viable option. This is another reason TvP is annoying. Protoss just dictates the early game. Protoss all ins - you better scout or guess the right all in and defend pretty much flawlessly, or lose. Protoss expands - you better expand as well in order to not end up behind as the chances for any 1 base all in or 1 base play into expand is gonna do anything useful are very slim.
I dealt with the same scenario in BW. I have no sympathy for you. Because if you're good, you know how to scout/count pylons and use a scan at an appropriate time. If you can't do that, you wouldn't be good regardless.
If I wanted to be able to match 3-2 air upgrades, in the mid game... I'd need another cyber. I would be spending 1050 minerals (not including first cyber) and 900 gas, just to be on equal footing, upgrade wise. And, I would still have to upgrade my ground army? This is in no way way practical. No, I don't want to rush tempest and play air vs air, the most boring games in SC 2, sans swarm hosts, simply because Blizzard lacks creativity. So much so, creativity is now coming up with ideas on what to remove. Is that like the opposite of genius, when you don't come up with new things and can only axe things?
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We know how you feel. Terran is down atleast 2 upgrades on ground units most of the time in TvP.
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On November 17 2013 06:12 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 06:01 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 05:55 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 05:44 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 05:29 ZenithM wrote:On November 17 2013 05:24 playa wrote:
It seems like if they want to buff one race, then they feel compelled to give the other races a buff, too, to appease them. I don't want "random" buffs, though. I'm also worried about terran having their widow mine nerfed and the "make up" buff. They have tried this same weapons/armor thing before, in beta, and it was deemed too strong/good. What has changed? I don't get it.
You can't plan on beating mech, as protoss, with just ground. I'm not saying it's impossible, but eventually you want to switch to air. I could see games becoming very, what's another word for gay... as protoss feels pressured to keep up with air upgrades, thus they just rush air tech as fast as possible and then it's skytoss vs skyterran.
I feel that removing upgrades, etc, should be a last resort, if even acceptable then. If you have to start removing upgrades... you should replace your balance team. That's lazy and embarrassing, and I hope they feel ashamed. Really earned their salary. Should put me on the team, so if toss is ever struggling I can be the brilliant guy that comes up with which protoss upgrade they shouldn't have to research anymore. I hate seeing this direction. Not everyone is GM, and not everyone is GM at balancing games. Please hire some new people with real ideas.
Just proxy oracle the fuck out of Terrans, you'll see, you won't have time to see much meching, if that's what you're afraid of. Protoss scared of mech? Love it. I'm scared of having to play stupid games. I don't want to be forced to open proxy oracles or do all-ins. "Air games" in SC 2 are the worst, to play or to spectate. A step above games involving swarm hosts. It makes no sense, atm, though. Terran does nothing, yet while you're transitioning to air, because you have to and both sides only have a few air units out atm, they already have 3-2 on their air weapons? I hate these stupid "solutions." Yeah. Terran air transitions is such a nuisance in TvP right now. You can chronoboost your upgrades and you have T2 units that don't such balls like terran mech units. No one is forcing you to open proxy oracles or do all ins. Opening macro is a perfectly viable option. This is another reason TvP is annoying. Protoss just dictates the early game. Protoss all ins - you better scout or guess the right all in and defend pretty much flawlessly, or lose. Protoss expands - you better expand as well in order to not end up behind as the chances for any 1 base all in or 1 base play into expand is gonna do anything useful are very slim. I dealt with the same scenario in BW. I have no sympathy for you. Because if you're good, you know how to scout/count pylons and use a scan at an appropriate time. If you can't do that, you wouldn't be good regardless. If I wanted to be able to match 3-2 air upgrades, in the mid game... I'd need another cyber. I would be spending 1050 minerals and 900 gas, just to be on equal footing, upgrade wise. And, I would still have to upgrade my ground army? This is in no way way practical. No, I don't want to rush tempest and play air vs air, the most boring games in SC 2, sans swarm hosts, simply because Blizzard lacks creativity. So much so, creativity is now coming up with ideas on what to remove. Is that like the opposite of genius, when you don't come up with new things and can only axe things?
This is ridiculous. Since when did Protoss ground have no answer to ground Terran mech? Immortals? Chargelots? Archons? All units very good against Terran ground.
If you have HTs for archons, you can also feedback Banshees, Ravens, Battlecruisers to soften them up. So what specifically is your issue?
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in this thread you can find protoss complaining about mech 
lmao.
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On November 17 2013 06:12 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 06:01 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 05:55 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 05:44 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 05:29 ZenithM wrote:On November 17 2013 05:24 playa wrote:
It seems like if they want to buff one race, then they feel compelled to give the other races a buff, too, to appease them. I don't want "random" buffs, though. I'm also worried about terran having their widow mine nerfed and the "make up" buff. They have tried this same weapons/armor thing before, in beta, and it was deemed too strong/good. What has changed? I don't get it.
You can't plan on beating mech, as protoss, with just ground. I'm not saying it's impossible, but eventually you want to switch to air. I could see games becoming very, what's another word for gay... as protoss feels pressured to keep up with air upgrades, thus they just rush air tech as fast as possible and then it's skytoss vs skyterran.
I feel that removing upgrades, etc, should be a last resort, if even acceptable then. If you have to start removing upgrades... you should replace your balance team. That's lazy and embarrassing, and I hope they feel ashamed. Really earned their salary. Should put me on the team, so if toss is ever struggling I can be the brilliant guy that comes up with which protoss upgrade they shouldn't have to research anymore. I hate seeing this direction. Not everyone is GM, and not everyone is GM at balancing games. Please hire some new people with real ideas.
Just proxy oracle the fuck out of Terrans, you'll see, you won't have time to see much meching, if that's what you're afraid of. Protoss scared of mech? Love it. I'm scared of having to play stupid games. I don't want to be forced to open proxy oracles or do all-ins. "Air games" in SC 2 are the worst, to play or to spectate. A step above games involving swarm hosts. It makes no sense, atm, though. Terran does nothing, yet while you're transitioning to air, because you have to and both sides only have a few air units out atm, they already have 3-2 on their air weapons? I hate these stupid "solutions." Yeah. Terran air transitions is such a nuisance in TvP right now. You can chronoboost your upgrades and you have T2 units that don't such balls like terran mech units. No one is forcing you to open proxy oracles or do all ins. Opening macro is a perfectly viable option. This is another reason TvP is annoying. Protoss just dictates the early game. Protoss all ins - you better scout or guess the right all in and defend pretty much flawlessly, or lose. Protoss expands - you better expand as well in order to not end up behind as the chances for any 1 base all in or 1 base play into expand is gonna do anything useful are very slim. I dealt with the same scenario in BW. I have no sympathy for you. Because if you're good, you know how to scout/count pylons and use a scan at an appropriate time. If you can't do that, you wouldn't be good regardless. If I wanted to be able to match 3-2 air upgrades, in the mid game... I'd need another cyber. I would be spending 1050 minerals (not including first cyber) and 900 gas, just to be on equal footing, upgrade wise. And, I would still have to upgrade my ground army? This is in no way way practical. No, I don't want to rush tempest and play air vs air, the most boring games in SC 2, sans swarm hosts, simply because Blizzard lacks creativity. So much so, creativity is now coming up with ideas on what to remove. Is that like the opposite of genius, when you don't come up with new things and can only axe things?
It is not about having sympathy. The fucking randomness that goes on in the guessing game when you realize that you are being proxied is universally bad. I don't need your sympathy, lol.
Protoss already has combined upgrades for all ground units, lol.
Before Hots, protoss had 5 upgrade paths and terran had 6.
Now terran has 4 and protoss 5, with the odd one applying to all units because it is the shield armor upgrade.
Care to explain why protoss can have combined upgrades for all ground units while terran can't have combined upgrades for mech/air units.
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On November 17 2013 06:19 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 06:12 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:01 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 05:55 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 05:44 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 05:29 ZenithM wrote:On November 17 2013 05:24 playa wrote:
It seems like if they want to buff one race, then they feel compelled to give the other races a buff, too, to appease them. I don't want "random" buffs, though. I'm also worried about terran having their widow mine nerfed and the "make up" buff. They have tried this same weapons/armor thing before, in beta, and it was deemed too strong/good. What has changed? I don't get it.
You can't plan on beating mech, as protoss, with just ground. I'm not saying it's impossible, but eventually you want to switch to air. I could see games becoming very, what's another word for gay... as protoss feels pressured to keep up with air upgrades, thus they just rush air tech as fast as possible and then it's skytoss vs skyterran.
I feel that removing upgrades, etc, should be a last resort, if even acceptable then. If you have to start removing upgrades... you should replace your balance team. That's lazy and embarrassing, and I hope they feel ashamed. Really earned their salary. Should put me on the team, so if toss is ever struggling I can be the brilliant guy that comes up with which protoss upgrade they shouldn't have to research anymore. I hate seeing this direction. Not everyone is GM, and not everyone is GM at balancing games. Please hire some new people with real ideas.
Just proxy oracle the fuck out of Terrans, you'll see, you won't have time to see much meching, if that's what you're afraid of. Protoss scared of mech? Love it. I'm scared of having to play stupid games. I don't want to be forced to open proxy oracles or do all-ins. "Air games" in SC 2 are the worst, to play or to spectate. A step above games involving swarm hosts. It makes no sense, atm, though. Terran does nothing, yet while you're transitioning to air, because you have to and both sides only have a few air units out atm, they already have 3-2 on their air weapons? I hate these stupid "solutions." Yeah. Terran air transitions is such a nuisance in TvP right now. You can chronoboost your upgrades and you have T2 units that don't such balls like terran mech units. No one is forcing you to open proxy oracles or do all ins. Opening macro is a perfectly viable option. This is another reason TvP is annoying. Protoss just dictates the early game. Protoss all ins - you better scout or guess the right all in and defend pretty much flawlessly, or lose. Protoss expands - you better expand as well in order to not end up behind as the chances for any 1 base all in or 1 base play into expand is gonna do anything useful are very slim. I dealt with the same scenario in BW. I have no sympathy for you. Because if you're good, you know how to scout/count pylons and use a scan at an appropriate time. If you can't do that, you wouldn't be good regardless. If I wanted to be able to match 3-2 air upgrades, in the mid game... I'd need another cyber. I would be spending 1050 minerals and 900 gas, just to be on equal footing, upgrade wise. And, I would still have to upgrade my ground army? This is in no way way practical. No, I don't want to rush tempest and play air vs air, the most boring games in SC 2, sans swarm hosts, simply because Blizzard lacks creativity. So much so, creativity is now coming up with ideas on what to remove. Is that like the opposite of genius, when you don't come up with new things and can only axe things? This is ridiculous. Since when did Protoss ground have no answer to ground Terran mech? Immortals? Chargelots? Archons? All units very good against Terran ground. If you have HTs for archons, you can also feedback Banshees, Ravens, Battlecruisers to soften them up. So what specifically is your issue?
Believe it or not, but not all maps are created equally and it's pretty easy to be in a defensive posture with a lot of tanks sieged up, with units/obstacles in the way. If Terran doesn't have to move much, on a map that is fairly easy to split, you need air units against anyone with a functioning keyboard.
I can understand thoughts like "I believe Terran should have a 500 mineral/500 gas" adv or w/e. A handicap for the race with an adv atm... I just have no idea how removing the need to research something is the first thing to try out. How about, I dunno, simply reducing the cost? I'm just in awe of how lazy/bad they must be at this job. I get that it must be hard, but anyone could do this.
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so I've been trying to catch a couple streams but I don't ever see any of the streamers meching much.
How is the Siege Tank buff looking? Does it make a difference in game at all?
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On November 17 2013 06:27 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 06:19 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 06:12 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:01 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 05:55 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 05:44 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 05:29 ZenithM wrote:On November 17 2013 05:24 playa wrote:
It seems like if they want to buff one race, then they feel compelled to give the other races a buff, too, to appease them. I don't want "random" buffs, though. I'm also worried about terran having their widow mine nerfed and the "make up" buff. They have tried this same weapons/armor thing before, in beta, and it was deemed too strong/good. What has changed? I don't get it.
You can't plan on beating mech, as protoss, with just ground. I'm not saying it's impossible, but eventually you want to switch to air. I could see games becoming very, what's another word for gay... as protoss feels pressured to keep up with air upgrades, thus they just rush air tech as fast as possible and then it's skytoss vs skyterran.
I feel that removing upgrades, etc, should be a last resort, if even acceptable then. If you have to start removing upgrades... you should replace your balance team. That's lazy and embarrassing, and I hope they feel ashamed. Really earned their salary. Should put me on the team, so if toss is ever struggling I can be the brilliant guy that comes up with which protoss upgrade they shouldn't have to research anymore. I hate seeing this direction. Not everyone is GM, and not everyone is GM at balancing games. Please hire some new people with real ideas.
Just proxy oracle the fuck out of Terrans, you'll see, you won't have time to see much meching, if that's what you're afraid of. Protoss scared of mech? Love it. I'm scared of having to play stupid games. I don't want to be forced to open proxy oracles or do all-ins. "Air games" in SC 2 are the worst, to play or to spectate. A step above games involving swarm hosts. It makes no sense, atm, though. Terran does nothing, yet while you're transitioning to air, because you have to and both sides only have a few air units out atm, they already have 3-2 on their air weapons? I hate these stupid "solutions." Yeah. Terran air transitions is such a nuisance in TvP right now. You can chronoboost your upgrades and you have T2 units that don't such balls like terran mech units. No one is forcing you to open proxy oracles or do all ins. Opening macro is a perfectly viable option. This is another reason TvP is annoying. Protoss just dictates the early game. Protoss all ins - you better scout or guess the right all in and defend pretty much flawlessly, or lose. Protoss expands - you better expand as well in order to not end up behind as the chances for any 1 base all in or 1 base play into expand is gonna do anything useful are very slim. I dealt with the same scenario in BW. I have no sympathy for you. Because if you're good, you know how to scout/count pylons and use a scan at an appropriate time. If you can't do that, you wouldn't be good regardless. If I wanted to be able to match 3-2 air upgrades, in the mid game... I'd need another cyber. I would be spending 1050 minerals and 900 gas, just to be on equal footing, upgrade wise. And, I would still have to upgrade my ground army? This is in no way way practical. No, I don't want to rush tempest and play air vs air, the most boring games in SC 2, sans swarm hosts, simply because Blizzard lacks creativity. So much so, creativity is now coming up with ideas on what to remove. Is that like the opposite of genius, when you don't come up with new things and can only axe things? This is ridiculous. Since when did Protoss ground have no answer to ground Terran mech? Immortals? Chargelots? Archons? All units very good against Terran ground. If you have HTs for archons, you can also feedback Banshees, Ravens, Battlecruisers to soften them up. So what specifically is your issue? Believe it or not, but not all maps are created equally and it's pretty easy to be in a defensive posture with a lot of tanks sieged up, with units/obstacles in the way. If Terran doesn't have to move much, on a map that is fairly easy to split, you need air units against anyone with a functioning keyboard. I can understand thoughts like "I believe Terran should have a 500 mineral/500 gas" adv or w/e. A handicap for the race with an adv atm... I just have no idea how removing the need to research something is the first thing to try out. How about, I dunno, simply reducing the cost? I'm just in awe of how lazy/bad they must be at this job. I get that it must be hard, but anyone could do this.
You can save the condescending "believe it or not". Some maps favour Zergs in TvZ; would you then advocate then that Zergs need to be nerfed?
No, that's a map design issue and not a balance issue.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On November 17 2013 06:30 Lunareste wrote:
so I've been trying to catch a couple streams but I don't ever see any of the streamers meching much.
How is the Siege Tank buff looking? Does it make a difference in game at all?
Even if it did, the majority of people who stream all the time wouldn't be using it as it means they need to actually spend a lot of time practicing it to play it properly. It's a completely different style and mindset to bio and most of the popular streamers have done nothing for bio for 3 years and while bio is still the best, why would they bother playing it?
If we see mech, it'll be by Flash or especially Fantasy in Proleague or after they've had extensive practice with it.
Flash went mech a few times vs zerg even before the patch in tournament games so it's not like he can't ever get it to work, he wouldn't do it if it didn't work for him in practice.
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On November 17 2013 06:07 vidium wrote:
Every balance patch same story, they change speed of something. Better call the game Speedcraft 2.
Except that one patch where they gave +2 range to some units, don't remember which.
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On November 15 2013 19:05 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 14:30 geokilla wrote:On November 15 2013 14:24 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 15 2013 12:22 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 12:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 15 2013 08:51 Qikz wrote:On November 15 2013 06:34 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 15 2013 06:33 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:On November 14 2013 16:55 Qwerty85 wrote:On November 14 2013 16:36 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:
[quote]
You remind me of a troll.
1/1/1 is a good build.
If you want to play passive and neglect Terrans strength (the early game) go for it, chances are you won't get far though considering how powerful Toss's mid game and late game is. Did your client neglected to update the game? We are now in Hots with MSC, nexus canon, and also carry some changes from WoL (immortal buff, rax nerf, multiple bunker nerfs etc) How many 1/1/1s did you see on high level TvP recently? Siege doesn't require research anymore, 1/1/1 is still viable as long as you build bunkers. ENough with the talk of this BS either post a rep or stop saying this because its not TRUE AT ALL LOL The mothership core really doesn't do enough damage to a large amount of targets in a quick time to completely kill the 1/1/1. You don't even need to attack into their nexus, you just set up a contain. I thought the entire counter to the 1/1/1 was to FE, get a better econ, stall the push a little and then overrun them. Doing a contain off a 1-base All-in sounds like exactly what the Protoss wants you to do. Of course it is. Protoss are just saying stupid shit now. I trust TheDwf over other GM's not cause he's a Terran, but cause he provides actual game proof and not just pointless theorycraft. None of these Protoss trolls have even given any proof that this MU isn't skewed in a stupid way towards Protoss in the early game. Yeah Dwf generally posts sense, or even if it is something I may not entirely agree with it's at least backed up with builds, timings etc. Hell you don't even need to play the game at any competent level to post sense, if you're right you're right. Every man and his dog could have told you the Warhound was fucked, photon overcharge was another tool for insane blind greed, or mech will require a metric fuckton of work to make functional in TvP I honeslty don't see how Mech will ever work in TvP. It got buried in this thread, but Mass Void Rays and Phoenixes would counter Mech pretty well. If it goes long enough, Carriers. At least in theory... I've never tried it before or seen Sky Toss vs Terran Mech at a high level. Mass Void rays are actually countered pretty well by mass ravens, infact the same can be said for all protoss air since it stacks up so much and it's so slow if you HSM as they come in for an engagement, they'll find it hard to get away. This is coming from someone who had in game experience of mech from the WoL beta until I quite playing a few months back. Say "BUT FEEDBACK" all you like, but if you're waiting for them to engage into you, your tanks will kill the templar since that'll most likely be all they have on the ground or you can micro your tanks to do it so feedback isnt an issue. If you can't get them to come into you and they sit there with tempests, you just use PDD since most of the time they'll go mass tempest. If it's not mass tempest then you can just outrepair the damage.
How can you get Ravens when you have no gas building the mech army?
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On November 17 2013 06:27 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 06:19 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 06:12 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:01 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 05:55 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 05:44 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 05:29 ZenithM wrote:On November 17 2013 05:24 playa wrote:
It seems like if they want to buff one race, then they feel compelled to give the other races a buff, too, to appease them. I don't want "random" buffs, though. I'm also worried about terran having their widow mine nerfed and the "make up" buff. They have tried this same weapons/armor thing before, in beta, and it was deemed too strong/good. What has changed? I don't get it.
You can't plan on beating mech, as protoss, with just ground. I'm not saying it's impossible, but eventually you want to switch to air. I could see games becoming very, what's another word for gay... as protoss feels pressured to keep up with air upgrades, thus they just rush air tech as fast as possible and then it's skytoss vs skyterran.
I feel that removing upgrades, etc, should be a last resort, if even acceptable then. If you have to start removing upgrades... you should replace your balance team. That's lazy and embarrassing, and I hope they feel ashamed. Really earned their salary. Should put me on the team, so if toss is ever struggling I can be the brilliant guy that comes up with which protoss upgrade they shouldn't have to research anymore. I hate seeing this direction. Not everyone is GM, and not everyone is GM at balancing games. Please hire some new people with real ideas.
Just proxy oracle the fuck out of Terrans, you'll see, you won't have time to see much meching, if that's what you're afraid of. Protoss scared of mech? Love it. I'm scared of having to play stupid games. I don't want to be forced to open proxy oracles or do all-ins. "Air games" in SC 2 are the worst, to play or to spectate. A step above games involving swarm hosts. It makes no sense, atm, though. Terran does nothing, yet while you're transitioning to air, because you have to and both sides only have a few air units out atm, they already have 3-2 on their air weapons? I hate these stupid "solutions." Yeah. Terran air transitions is such a nuisance in TvP right now. You can chronoboost your upgrades and you have T2 units that don't such balls like terran mech units. No one is forcing you to open proxy oracles or do all ins. Opening macro is a perfectly viable option. This is another reason TvP is annoying. Protoss just dictates the early game. Protoss all ins - you better scout or guess the right all in and defend pretty much flawlessly, or lose. Protoss expands - you better expand as well in order to not end up behind as the chances for any 1 base all in or 1 base play into expand is gonna do anything useful are very slim. I dealt with the same scenario in BW. I have no sympathy for you. Because if you're good, you know how to scout/count pylons and use a scan at an appropriate time. If you can't do that, you wouldn't be good regardless. If I wanted to be able to match 3-2 air upgrades, in the mid game... I'd need another cyber. I would be spending 1050 minerals and 900 gas, just to be on equal footing, upgrade wise. And, I would still have to upgrade my ground army? This is in no way way practical. No, I don't want to rush tempest and play air vs air, the most boring games in SC 2, sans swarm hosts, simply because Blizzard lacks creativity. So much so, creativity is now coming up with ideas on what to remove. Is that like the opposite of genius, when you don't come up with new things and can only axe things? This is ridiculous. Since when did Protoss ground have no answer to ground Terran mech? Immortals? Chargelots? Archons? All units very good against Terran ground. If you have HTs for archons, you can also feedback Banshees, Ravens, Battlecruisers to soften them up. So what specifically is your issue? Believe it or not, but not all maps are created equally and it's pretty easy to be in a defensive posture with a lot of tanks sieged up, with units/obstacles in the way. If Terran doesn't have to move much, on a map that is fairly easy to split, you need air units against anyone with a functioning keyboard. I can understand thoughts like "I believe Terran should have a 500 mineral/500 gas" adv or w/e. A handicap for the race with an adv atm... I just have no idea how removing the need to research something is the first thing to try out. How about, I dunno, simply reducing the cost? I'm just in awe of how lazy/bad they must be at this job. I get that it must be hard, but anyone could do this.
Stop the trolling now.
You've had combined ground upgrades for gateway and robo units since SC1.
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On November 17 2013 06:40 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 06:27 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:19 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 06:12 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:01 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 05:55 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 05:44 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 05:29 ZenithM wrote:On November 17 2013 05:24 playa wrote:
It seems like if they want to buff one race, then they feel compelled to give the other races a buff, too, to appease them. I don't want "random" buffs, though. I'm also worried about terran having their widow mine nerfed and the "make up" buff. They have tried this same weapons/armor thing before, in beta, and it was deemed too strong/good. What has changed? I don't get it.
You can't plan on beating mech, as protoss, with just ground. I'm not saying it's impossible, but eventually you want to switch to air. I could see games becoming very, what's another word for gay... as protoss feels pressured to keep up with air upgrades, thus they just rush air tech as fast as possible and then it's skytoss vs skyterran.
I feel that removing upgrades, etc, should be a last resort, if even acceptable then. If you have to start removing upgrades... you should replace your balance team. That's lazy and embarrassing, and I hope they feel ashamed. Really earned their salary. Should put me on the team, so if toss is ever struggling I can be the brilliant guy that comes up with which protoss upgrade they shouldn't have to research anymore. I hate seeing this direction. Not everyone is GM, and not everyone is GM at balancing games. Please hire some new people with real ideas.
Just proxy oracle the fuck out of Terrans, you'll see, you won't have time to see much meching, if that's what you're afraid of. Protoss scared of mech? Love it. I'm scared of having to play stupid games. I don't want to be forced to open proxy oracles or do all-ins. "Air games" in SC 2 are the worst, to play or to spectate. A step above games involving swarm hosts. It makes no sense, atm, though. Terran does nothing, yet while you're transitioning to air, because you have to and both sides only have a few air units out atm, they already have 3-2 on their air weapons? I hate these stupid "solutions." Yeah. Terran air transitions is such a nuisance in TvP right now. You can chronoboost your upgrades and you have T2 units that don't such balls like terran mech units. No one is forcing you to open proxy oracles or do all ins. Opening macro is a perfectly viable option. This is another reason TvP is annoying. Protoss just dictates the early game. Protoss all ins - you better scout or guess the right all in and defend pretty much flawlessly, or lose. Protoss expands - you better expand as well in order to not end up behind as the chances for any 1 base all in or 1 base play into expand is gonna do anything useful are very slim. I dealt with the same scenario in BW. I have no sympathy for you. Because if you're good, you know how to scout/count pylons and use a scan at an appropriate time. If you can't do that, you wouldn't be good regardless. If I wanted to be able to match 3-2 air upgrades, in the mid game... I'd need another cyber. I would be spending 1050 minerals and 900 gas, just to be on equal footing, upgrade wise. And, I would still have to upgrade my ground army? This is in no way way practical. No, I don't want to rush tempest and play air vs air, the most boring games in SC 2, sans swarm hosts, simply because Blizzard lacks creativity. So much so, creativity is now coming up with ideas on what to remove. Is that like the opposite of genius, when you don't come up with new things and can only axe things? This is ridiculous. Since when did Protoss ground have no answer to ground Terran mech? Immortals? Chargelots? Archons? All units very good against Terran ground. If you have HTs for archons, you can also feedback Banshees, Ravens, Battlecruisers to soften them up. So what specifically is your issue? Believe it or not, but not all maps are created equally and it's pretty easy to be in a defensive posture with a lot of tanks sieged up, with units/obstacles in the way. If Terran doesn't have to move much, on a map that is fairly easy to split, you need air units against anyone with a functioning keyboard. I can understand thoughts like "I believe Terran should have a 500 mineral/500 gas" adv or w/e. A handicap for the race with an adv atm... I just have no idea how removing the need to research something is the first thing to try out. How about, I dunno, simply reducing the cost? I'm just in awe of how lazy/bad they must be at this job. I get that it must be hard, but anyone could do this. Stop the trolling now. You've had combined ground upgrades for gateway and robo units since SC1.
And all of the protoss ranged units cost gas, what is your point?
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On November 16 2013 04:18 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Aside from a buff to damage vs shields (which honestly seems like a no-brainer at this point), one buff I'd like to see them consider would be to increase the speed of unsieged Tanks. Not by a ton, I'm not proposing superspeed tanks zooming around the map like zerglings or anything. But even bumping their speed very slightly by .25 or .5 (which would give them speed 2.75, the same speed of upgraded Zealots when they aren't charging, i.e. not super fast, but not incredibly slow either) would do a lot to mitigate some of the problems with going mech, namely:
-Players who are good at leapfrogging with Tanks would be able to push across the map at a somewhat faster pace, and could thus apply pressure more easily rather than being forced to turtle. Of course, players who aren't good at leapfrogging could still get easily ambushed out of position and destroyed, but I see that as a good thing because it preserves the skill challenge inherent in playing mech.
-Meching players could actually reinforce when their army is outside of the base, something that has become increasingly difficult as map size has increased. This would mean that players would be more comfortable pushing out with lower tank counts, confident they can reinforce as new tanks are built, rather than turtling up to create a super army.
-In general, it would encourage players to be more active with tanks and reposition them more frequently as the situation demands. For example, meching players almost never retreat, because it typically results in losing their entire army. If tanks could get out faster once unsieged, we might see more players taking steps to keep them alive in the event that they don't win an engagement outright.
A movement speed increase to tanks is something I don't really think is necessary, they're not exactly fast at the moment but they get around well enough. The real achilles' heel when it comes to attempting tank play is the time it takes to siege and unsiege. Ever since HotS made TvZ winnable again, the key to beating Zerg has been the relentless uptempo style that widow mines permit. Yes, mines do move faster than tanks, but the real key to their mobility is that they can be set up much more quickly than a tank, particularly with drilling claws. In a game with faster mutas and blinding cloud and even abduct, the ability to have your army ready to fight at a moment's notice and also to be able to get away from the spellcasters before they ruin your day is of utmost importance. Blizzard decided that making everything super fast was the best way to make SC2 fun, and the tank has become a relic from a style that quite literally got left in the dust.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On November 17 2013 06:40 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 19:05 Qikz wrote:On November 15 2013 14:30 geokilla wrote:On November 15 2013 14:24 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 15 2013 12:22 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 12:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 15 2013 08:51 Qikz wrote:On November 15 2013 06:34 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 15 2013 06:33 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:On November 14 2013 16:55 Qwerty85 wrote:
[quote]
Did your client neglected to update the game? We are now in Hots with MSC, nexus canon, and also carry some changes from WoL (immortal buff, rax nerf, multiple bunker nerfs etc)
How many 1/1/1s did you see on high level TvP recently? Siege doesn't require research anymore, 1/1/1 is still viable as long as you build bunkers. ENough with the talk of this BS either post a rep or stop saying this because its not TRUE AT ALL LOL The mothership core really doesn't do enough damage to a large amount of targets in a quick time to completely kill the 1/1/1. You don't even need to attack into their nexus, you just set up a contain. I thought the entire counter to the 1/1/1 was to FE, get a better econ, stall the push a little and then overrun them. Doing a contain off a 1-base All-in sounds like exactly what the Protoss wants you to do. Of course it is. Protoss are just saying stupid shit now. I trust TheDwf over other GM's not cause he's a Terran, but cause he provides actual game proof and not just pointless theorycraft. None of these Protoss trolls have even given any proof that this MU isn't skewed in a stupid way towards Protoss in the early game. Yeah Dwf generally posts sense, or even if it is something I may not entirely agree with it's at least backed up with builds, timings etc. Hell you don't even need to play the game at any competent level to post sense, if you're right you're right. Every man and his dog could have told you the Warhound was fucked, photon overcharge was another tool for insane blind greed, or mech will require a metric fuckton of work to make functional in TvP I honeslty don't see how Mech will ever work in TvP. It got buried in this thread, but Mass Void Rays and Phoenixes would counter Mech pretty well. If it goes long enough, Carriers. At least in theory... I've never tried it before or seen Sky Toss vs Terran Mech at a high level. Mass Void rays are actually countered pretty well by mass ravens, infact the same can be said for all protoss air since it stacks up so much and it's so slow if you HSM as they come in for an engagement, they'll find it hard to get away. This is coming from someone who had in game experience of mech from the WoL beta until I quite playing a few months back. Say "BUT FEEDBACK" all you like, but if you're waiting for them to engage into you, your tanks will kill the templar since that'll most likely be all they have on the ground or you can micro your tanks to do it so feedback isnt an issue. If you can't get them to come into you and they sit there with tempests, you just use PDD since most of the time they'll go mass tempest. If it's not mass tempest then you can just outrepair the damage. How can you get Ravens when you have no gas building the mech army?
On 3 bases you can afford tanks and ravens. The only gas you need is for tanks and ravens, everything else is minerals. Turrets, CCs, Hellions and depot walls.
People seriously overestimate the gas cost of mech in SC2. Yes, compared to bio you actually use your three base gas income, but you've got more than enough gas to go ravens and tanks. I never built thors when I played since I personally think they suck against toss air as well as toss ground since they only shoot one target at a time.
Also ravens are a unit you slowly mass up throughout the game, I always got a starport with a techlab for a medivac and after that I just added on ravens as the game went since they're almost always useful against toss. Toss armies blob up if they're a-moving as they often do into mech and since the stuff moves relatively slowly if it's anywhere near the front against ground you hunter seeker or PDD vs mass stalkers and against air you just use PDD.
Much like Valks in the Fantasy build into Vessels in BW, they're the kind of units that have their uses without you ever needing to have them in trouble. Keep them behind your army and only move forward when you know they can't engage them with feedback (so as they rush you) and target fire the templar. Using Ravens like suicide units is like watching zergs waste infestors.
This is entirely my personal findings from my playing of mech in SC2 since the release of the WoL beta so whether or not people find my findings accurate or not I don't really care, that's how I found it. You can have 2 armories pumping double ups, one starport and 2-3 techlab factories on 3 base income easily.
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On November 17 2013 06:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 06:40 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 06:27 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:19 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 06:12 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:01 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 05:55 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 05:44 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 05:29 ZenithM wrote:On November 17 2013 05:24 playa wrote:
It seems like if they want to buff one race, then they feel compelled to give the other races a buff, too, to appease them. I don't want "random" buffs, though. I'm also worried about terran having their widow mine nerfed and the "make up" buff. They have tried this same weapons/armor thing before, in beta, and it was deemed too strong/good. What has changed? I don't get it.
You can't plan on beating mech, as protoss, with just ground. I'm not saying it's impossible, but eventually you want to switch to air. I could see games becoming very, what's another word for gay... as protoss feels pressured to keep up with air upgrades, thus they just rush air tech as fast as possible and then it's skytoss vs skyterran.
I feel that removing upgrades, etc, should be a last resort, if even acceptable then. If you have to start removing upgrades... you should replace your balance team. That's lazy and embarrassing, and I hope they feel ashamed. Really earned their salary. Should put me on the team, so if toss is ever struggling I can be the brilliant guy that comes up with which protoss upgrade they shouldn't have to research anymore. I hate seeing this direction. Not everyone is GM, and not everyone is GM at balancing games. Please hire some new people with real ideas.
Just proxy oracle the fuck out of Terrans, you'll see, you won't have time to see much meching, if that's what you're afraid of. Protoss scared of mech? Love it. I'm scared of having to play stupid games. I don't want to be forced to open proxy oracles or do all-ins. "Air games" in SC 2 are the worst, to play or to spectate. A step above games involving swarm hosts. It makes no sense, atm, though. Terran does nothing, yet while you're transitioning to air, because you have to and both sides only have a few air units out atm, they already have 3-2 on their air weapons? I hate these stupid "solutions." Yeah. Terran air transitions is such a nuisance in TvP right now. You can chronoboost your upgrades and you have T2 units that don't such balls like terran mech units. No one is forcing you to open proxy oracles or do all ins. Opening macro is a perfectly viable option. This is another reason TvP is annoying. Protoss just dictates the early game. Protoss all ins - you better scout or guess the right all in and defend pretty much flawlessly, or lose. Protoss expands - you better expand as well in order to not end up behind as the chances for any 1 base all in or 1 base play into expand is gonna do anything useful are very slim. I dealt with the same scenario in BW. I have no sympathy for you. Because if you're good, you know how to scout/count pylons and use a scan at an appropriate time. If you can't do that, you wouldn't be good regardless. If I wanted to be able to match 3-2 air upgrades, in the mid game... I'd need another cyber. I would be spending 1050 minerals and 900 gas, just to be on equal footing, upgrade wise. And, I would still have to upgrade my ground army? This is in no way way practical. No, I don't want to rush tempest and play air vs air, the most boring games in SC 2, sans swarm hosts, simply because Blizzard lacks creativity. So much so, creativity is now coming up with ideas on what to remove. Is that like the opposite of genius, when you don't come up with new things and can only axe things? This is ridiculous. Since when did Protoss ground have no answer to ground Terran mech? Immortals? Chargelots? Archons? All units very good against Terran ground. If you have HTs for archons, you can also feedback Banshees, Ravens, Battlecruisers to soften them up. So what specifically is your issue? Believe it or not, but not all maps are created equally and it's pretty easy to be in a defensive posture with a lot of tanks sieged up, with units/obstacles in the way. If Terran doesn't have to move much, on a map that is fairly easy to split, you need air units against anyone with a functioning keyboard. I can understand thoughts like "I believe Terran should have a 500 mineral/500 gas" adv or w/e. A handicap for the race with an adv atm... I just have no idea how removing the need to research something is the first thing to try out. How about, I dunno, simply reducing the cost? I'm just in awe of how lazy/bad they must be at this job. I get that it must be hard, but anyone could do this. Stop the trolling now. You've had combined ground upgrades for gateway and robo units since SC1. And all of the protoss ranged units cost gas, what is your point?
Why no love for the Zealot?
All air/mech units except the hellion cost gas.
If you can exclude a unit then so can I !
I won't go into a discussion with you Plansix. You are just a spamming troll.
Next week you will have 13000 posts.
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On November 17 2013 06:46 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 06:43 Plansix wrote:On November 17 2013 06:40 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 06:27 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:19 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 06:12 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 06:01 one-one-one wrote:On November 17 2013 05:55 playa wrote:On November 17 2013 05:44 plogamer wrote:On November 17 2013 05:29 ZenithM wrote:
[quote]
Just proxy oracle the fuck out of Terrans, you'll see, you won't have time to see much meching, if that's what you're afraid of. Protoss scared of mech? Love it. I'm scared of having to play stupid games. I don't want to be forced to open proxy oracles or do all-ins. "Air games" in SC 2 are the worst, to play or to spectate. A step above games involving swarm hosts. It makes no sense, atm, though. Terran does nothing, yet while you're transitioning to air, because you have to and both sides only have a few air units out atm, they already have 3-2 on their air weapons? I hate these stupid "solutions." Yeah. Terran air transitions is such a nuisance in TvP right now. You can chronoboost your upgrades and you have T2 units that don't such balls like terran mech units. No one is forcing you to open proxy oracles or do all ins. Opening macro is a perfectly viable option. This is another reason TvP is annoying. Protoss just dictates the early game. Protoss all ins - you better scout or guess the right all in and defend pretty much flawlessly, or lose. Protoss expands - you better expand as well in order to not end up behind as the chances for any 1 base all in or 1 base play into expand is gonna do anything useful are very slim. I dealt with the same scenario in BW. I have no sympathy for you. Because if you're good, you know how to scout/count pylons and use a scan at an appropriate time. If you can't do that, you wouldn't be good regardless. If I wanted to be able to match 3-2 air upgrades, in the mid game... I'd need another cyber. I would be spending 1050 minerals and 900 gas, just to be on equal footing, upgrade wise. And, I would still have to upgrade my ground army? This is in no way way practical. No, I don't want to rush tempest and play air vs air, the most boring games in SC 2, sans swarm hosts, simply because Blizzard lacks creativity. So much so, creativity is now coming up with ideas on what to remove. Is that like the opposite of genius, when you don't come up with new things and can only axe things? This is ridiculous. Since when did Protoss ground have no answer to ground Terran mech? Immortals? Chargelots? Archons? All units very good against Terran ground. If you have HTs for archons, you can also feedback Banshees, Ravens, Battlecruisers to soften them up. So what specifically is your issue? Believe it or not, but not all maps are created equally and it's pretty easy to be in a defensive posture with a lot of tanks sieged up, with units/obstacles in the way. If Terran doesn't have to move much, on a map that is fairly easy to split, you need air units against anyone with a functioning keyboard. I can understand thoughts like "I believe Terran should have a 500 mineral/500 gas" adv or w/e. A handicap for the race with an adv atm... I just have no idea how removing the need to research something is the first thing to try out. How about, I dunno, simply reducing the cost? I'm just in awe of how lazy/bad they must be at this job. I get that it must be hard, but anyone could do this. Stop the trolling now. You've had combined ground upgrades for gateway and robo units since SC1. And all of the protoss ranged units cost gas, what is your point? Why no love for the Zealot? All air/mech units except the hellion cost gas. If you can exclude a unit then so can I ! I won't go into a discussion with you Plansix. You are just a spamming troll. Next week you will have 13000 posts.
The zealot is a ranged unit? When did this happen? The point is the that every race has its ups and downs. The terran have the best ranged unit in the game for the low low cost of 50 minerals.
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1) They should make the tank do 70 damage against armored units like in broodwar.
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EPT
