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On November 16 2013 07:37 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 07:31 Hider wrote:On November 16 2013 07:24 playa wrote:On November 16 2013 05:36 Hider wrote:On November 16 2013 05:34 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW TvP, Protoss had a substantial advantage in the early game. They could more easily apply pressure and harass, they had an easier time gaining map control, and as a result they often had an easier time taking expansions. It was balanced out by Terran being able to build a truly terrifying tank based mech army that, if well-controlled, was an absolute nightmare to stop. If Terrans had the option to build a similarly powerful mech army in SC2, then Protoss advantages in map control and harass capability in the early game would, I suspect, be far less of an issue. Terran could do the same thing as protoss: They could both attack early game and defend (dependant on build orders ofc.). I really don't think there were even semi-solid Terran options against protoss that involved early game aggression. If you wanted to beat a good protoss player in BW, you had to play a methodical, turtle style, and look to win a 30+ min game. Protoss has tons of cheesing options in BW and Terran mainly has 2 rax before supply depot. In BW, you couldn't open bio but no one pissed and moaned. You were far more limited in BW, but now it's the end of the world. That's the difference, the world is ending... A player with 55% or greater win percent in t vs p, in BW, was a god. Few players have achieved such a thing. If you could turtle, have perfect defense, and play like Flash, then you were invincible. Problem is, no one else has been close to being that good, besides maybe oov. It's very disingenuous to say there were good attacking options in t vs p, for BW. There simply weren't any. They were bad gambles at best. Watch some Snipelot games. Terran very often does these early timing attacks (out of 1 base or 2 base) - With a pretty high win ratio. Give me a break. Yeah, and when all the foreign players went to SC 2, I was able to make bio work. Do me a favor sometime and look at winning percentages in t vs p for pros. It was obvious what style was the best. No one could duplicate it/had the skills to pull it off and aggressive based play has always been a low percentage move -- unless mid game, fantasy style. For anyone that thinks t vs p is harder in this game than it was in BW, just look at some winning percentages between the two games and then slap yourself until you have some sense.
Im pretty sure the stats for last pure bw proleague or osl (not sure which it was) was like 55% tvp in terrans favour, not sure what youre getting at.
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Imo TvP was hard but easier in BW because you had more control. I was around B- Level on Iccup in 2009.
In SC2 you lose to the AOE so quickly. In BW you need to have good positioning with mines and tanks and in SC2 you have to be lucky not to run in a storm from a templar who is protected by a giant death ball.
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On November 16 2013 08:25 TurboMaN wrote:
Imo TvP was hard but easier in BW because you had more control. I was around B- Level on Iccup in 2009.
In SC2 you lose to the AOE so quickly. In BW you need to have good positioning with mines and tanks and in SC2 you have to be lucky not to run in a storm from a templar who is protected by a giant death ball.
you just gotta not run where you cant see
scan is good so is 1 stimmed marine
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On November 16 2013 12:40 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 08:25 TurboMaN wrote:
Imo TvP was hard but easier in BW because you had more control. I was around B- Level on Iccup in 2009.
In SC2 you lose to the AOE so quickly. In BW you need to have good positioning with mines and tanks and in SC2 you have to be lucky not to run in a storm from a templar who is protected by a giant death ball. you just gotta not run where you cant see scan is good so is 1 stimmed marine
We are way past the era when protoss had all his templars clumped with entire army. Templars can be on the high ground, or on the left or the right flank, just waiting to storm you when you engage the protoss army and have a lot to micro...
It is just not that simple as stimming 1 marine in front of the army..
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I think blizzard is doing a great job at closing in on gameplay problems.
This patch does not really change the strength of the races but instead tries to favor different playstyles.
TvZ was really bad with the mines, now it will be less random, because a single hit killing 12 banes will be less likely or even impossible. More Tank DoT and the combined upgrades will make air transitions or tank banshee combos really good, I'm sure terrans will figure out some new builds after a while.
Faster oracles will mean that they survive longer and can actually survive casting revelation, while not buffing the early game by much.
And roach burrow speed is really great, burrow micro is always fun and now roaches might actually do decently vs forcefields now, which always were too effective early game vs zerg.
It's actually a bit ridiculous that terran's are crying so much because TvZ absolutely needed to change, but aside from that this patch is a big terran buff, with only a small protoss and a decent zerg buff.
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Freeborn have you even tried terran and if yes have you been up to a proxy oracle? It doesn't look like though...
This oracle change is absolutely ridiculous because protoss simply didn't need this, its just easier now (as if it wasn't easy enough for protoss in the early phase of the game) and it makes non-upgraded marines worthless against oracles while said oracles can easily avoid mine shots thanks to their huge acceleration/speed.
I do think the WM nerf is a good thing for TvZ, but the oracle one is just bad, and that's what terran are complaining for.
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On November 16 2013 22:37 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard is doing a great job at closing in on gameplay problems.
This patch does not really change the strength of the races but instead tries to favor different playstyles.
TvZ was really bad with the mines, now it will be less random, because a single hit killing 12 banes will be less likely or even impossible. More Tank DoT and the combined upgrades will make air transitions or tank banshee combos really good, I'm sure terrans will figure out some new builds after a while.
Faster oracles will mean that they survive longer and can actually survive casting revelation, while not buffing the early game by much.
And roach burrow speed is really great, burrow micro is always fun and now roaches might actually do decently vs forcefields now, which always were too effective early game vs zerg.
It's actually a bit ridiculous that terran's are crying so much because TvZ absolutely needed to change, but aside from that this patch is a big terran buff, with only a small protoss and a decent zerg buff.
This would be coming from a Protoss player hahahah Either that or David Kim paid you to post this to try to push the conversation the way he thought things would go LOL. I think your Roach statement is really the only thing that is accurate TBH.
This patch was a dismantle of Terran pretty much. .2 of increase of Tank shot is Negligible and actually hurts when playing against Zerg.
The whole Oracle buff was unwarranted and was probably something he thought of while on the can because let's be honest it was a crap decision.
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On November 16 2013 22:53 VieuxSinge wrote:
Freeborn have you even tried terran and if yes have you been up to a proxy oracle? It doesn't look like though...
This oracle change is absolutely ridiculous because protoss simply didn't need this, its just easier now (as if it wasn't easy enough for protoss in the early phase of the game) and it makes non-upgraded marines worthless against oracles while said oracles can easily avoid mine shots thanks to their huge acceleration/speed.
I do think the WM nerf is a good thing for TvZ, but the oracle one is just bad, and that's what terran are complaining for.
I feel mutas regen should have been nerfed to compensate but I do like having less mines in tvz
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On November 16 2013 23:06 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 22:37 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard is doing a great job at closing in on gameplay problems.
This patch does not really change the strength of the races but instead tries to favor different playstyles.
TvZ was really bad with the mines, now it will be less random, because a single hit killing 12 banes will be less likely or even impossible. More Tank DoT and the combined upgrades will make air transitions or tank banshee combos really good, I'm sure terrans will figure out some new builds after a while.
Faster oracles will mean that they survive longer and can actually survive casting revelation, while not buffing the early game by much.
And roach burrow speed is really great, burrow micro is always fun and now roaches might actually do decently vs forcefields now, which always were too effective early game vs zerg.
It's actually a bit ridiculous that terran's are crying so much because TvZ absolutely needed to change, but aside from that this patch is a big terran buff, with only a small protoss and a decent zerg buff. This would be coming from a Protoss player hahahah Either that or David Kim paid you to post this to try to push the conversation the way he thought things would go LOL. I think your Roach statement is really the only thing that is accurate TBH. This patch was a dismantle of Terran pretty much. .2 of increase of Tank shot is Negligible and actually hurts when playing against Zerg. The whole Oracle buff was unwarranted and was probably something he thought of while on the can because let's be honest it was a crap decision.
We really need to get away from statements like "tanks doing more dps is a terran nerf", it's just...
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On November 16 2013 22:37 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard is doing a great job at closing in on gameplay problems.
This patch does not really change the strength of the races but instead tries to favor different playstyles.
TvZ was really bad with the mines, now it will be less random, because a single hit killing 12 banes will be less likely or even impossible. More Tank DoT and the combined upgrades will make air transitions or tank banshee combos really good, I'm sure terrans will figure out some new builds after a while.
Faster oracles will mean that they survive longer and can actually survive casting revelation, while not buffing the early game by much.
And roach burrow speed is really great, burrow micro is always fun and now roaches might actually do decently vs forcefields now, which always were too effective early game vs zerg.
It's actually a bit ridiculous that terran's are crying so much because TvZ absolutely needed to change, but aside from that this patch is a big terran buff, with only a small protoss and a decent zerg buff.
Yea I actually think terran is gonna be dominant in the near future, 6,66% buff on tanks attack speed is completely HUGE!
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I love how with each gameplay patch, the sky falls. Though I don't really agree with any of these changes (they seem either unnecessary or impotent), so long as the game is still actively being patched I'm okay waiting a few months and seeing what happens. That said...we need some sort of anti-Khaydarin amulet or something... the weather's been a bit too stormy lately.
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On November 16 2013 23:06 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 22:37 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard is doing a great job at closing in on gameplay problems.
This patch does not really change the strength of the races but instead tries to favor different playstyles.
TvZ was really bad with the mines, now it will be less random, because a single hit killing 12 banes will be less likely or even impossible. More Tank DoT and the combined upgrades will make air transitions or tank banshee combos really good, I'm sure terrans will figure out some new builds after a while.
Faster oracles will mean that they survive longer and can actually survive casting revelation, while not buffing the early game by much.
And roach burrow speed is really great, burrow micro is always fun and now roaches might actually do decently vs forcefields now, which always were too effective early game vs zerg.
It's actually a bit ridiculous that terran's are crying so much because TvZ absolutely needed to change, but aside from that this patch is a big terran buff, with only a small protoss and a decent zerg buff. This would be coming from a Protoss player hahahah Either that or David Kim paid you to post this to try to push the conversation the way he thought things would go LOL. I think your Roach statement is really the only thing that is accurate TBH. This patch was a dismantle of Terran pretty much. .2 of increase of Tank shot is Negligible and actually hurts when playing against Zerg. The whole Oracle buff was unwarranted and was probably something he thought of while on the can because let's be honest it was a crap decision.
1. wtf?
2. disagree. widow mines 1 shotting crawling oracles was a pathetic joke.
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On November 16 2013 23:10 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 23:06 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 16 2013 22:37 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard is doing a great job at closing in on gameplay problems.
This patch does not really change the strength of the races but instead tries to favor different playstyles.
TvZ was really bad with the mines, now it will be less random, because a single hit killing 12 banes will be less likely or even impossible. More Tank DoT and the combined upgrades will make air transitions or tank banshee combos really good, I'm sure terrans will figure out some new builds after a while.
Faster oracles will mean that they survive longer and can actually survive casting revelation, while not buffing the early game by much.
And roach burrow speed is really great, burrow micro is always fun and now roaches might actually do decently vs forcefields now, which always were too effective early game vs zerg.
It's actually a bit ridiculous that terran's are crying so much because TvZ absolutely needed to change, but aside from that this patch is a big terran buff, with only a small protoss and a decent zerg buff. This would be coming from a Protoss player hahahah Either that or David Kim paid you to post this to try to push the conversation the way he thought things would go LOL. I think your Roach statement is really the only thing that is accurate TBH. This patch was a dismantle of Terran pretty much. .2 of increase of Tank shot is Negligible and actually hurts when playing against Zerg. The whole Oracle buff was unwarranted and was probably something he thought of while on the can because let's be honest it was a crap decision. We really need to get away from statements like "tanks doing more dps is a terran nerf", it's just...
I get that people are frustrated with proxy oracles(and who wouldn't be), but I don't think statements like that help that much.
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Northern Ireland27467 Posts
A unit that is invariably proxied and frustrating as hell to deal with, is 'fixed' by making it even stronger in that capacity???
That's why Terrans are pissed and have a right to be. As a Protoss I refuse to do it as I have long felt it bullshit, not demanding a medal or anything mind :p
If you want to give it some more use in other ways, then for God's sake don't buff it so it's even stronger in the capacity that annoys people!
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On November 16 2013 23:24 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 23:06 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 16 2013 22:37 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard is doing a great job at closing in on gameplay problems.
This patch does not really change the strength of the races but instead tries to favor different playstyles.
TvZ was really bad with the mines, now it will be less random, because a single hit killing 12 banes will be less likely or even impossible. More Tank DoT and the combined upgrades will make air transitions or tank banshee combos really good, I'm sure terrans will figure out some new builds after a while.
Faster oracles will mean that they survive longer and can actually survive casting revelation, while not buffing the early game by much.
And roach burrow speed is really great, burrow micro is always fun and now roaches might actually do decently vs forcefields now, which always were too effective early game vs zerg.
It's actually a bit ridiculous that terran's are crying so much because TvZ absolutely needed to change, but aside from that this patch is a big terran buff, with only a small protoss and a decent zerg buff. This would be coming from a Protoss player hahahah Either that or David Kim paid you to post this to try to push the conversation the way he thought things would go LOL. I think your Roach statement is really the only thing that is accurate TBH. This patch was a dismantle of Terran pretty much. .2 of increase of Tank shot is Negligible and actually hurts when playing against Zerg. The whole Oracle buff was unwarranted and was probably something he thought of while on the can because let's be honest it was a crap decision. 1. wtf? 2. disagree. widow mines 1 shotting crawling oracles was a pathetic joke.
Are you aware that you can see burrowed mines before they start charging their attack? Just pay attention to your oracle and you'll never lose it to a widow mine.
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On November 16 2013 23:40 Wombat_NI wrote:
A unit that is invariably proxied and frustrating as hell to deal with, is 'fixed' by making it even stronger in that capacity???
That's why Terrans are pissed and have a right to be. As a Protoss I refuse to do it as I have long felt it bullshit, not demanding a medal or anything mind :p
If you want to give it some more use in other ways, then for God's sake don't buff it so it's even stronger in the capacity that annoys people!
Haha, I think the buff for oracle is so the DK can finally buff marines!!!
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On November 16 2013 23:06 Pirfiktshon wrote:
This patch was a dismantle of Terran pretty much. .2 of increase of Tank shot is Negligible and actually hurts when playing against Zerg.
This statement is as true as widow mine dmg decrease being a buff.
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On November 16 2013 23:40 Wombat_NI wrote:
A unit that is invariably proxied and frustrating as hell to deal with, is 'fixed' by making it even stronger in that capacity???
That's why Terrans are pissed and have a right to be. As a Protoss I refuse to do it as I have long felt it bullshit, not demanding a medal or anything mind :p
If you want to give it some more use in other ways, then for God's sake don't buff it so it's even stronger in the capacity that annoys people!
Amen.
Although personally I am abusing it like crazy, as a long suffering Terran player, i simply need to get my own back. Using that HerO build where you make a bunch of them and then follow up with a six gate sentry all in. Fun times.
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On November 17 2013 02:45 JonIrenicus wrote:
Oh god, David, I would be so happy to be in your place doing nothing but spilling crap and enjoying your beautiful monthly fund
But how's your pitchfork defense?
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EPT
