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On November 16 2013 01:15 TimENT wrote:
The problem with mech TvP is:
1. Toss has complete map control with observers and mobility
2. Toss can defend every single position by zoning with blink stalkers, placing a couple immortals around, and mama core
3. Immortals and zealots absolutely murder tanks
4. Tanks are actually pretty terrible at zoning in TvP because they don't do much damage in small numbers, while a couple immortals/zealots/blink stalkers just wreck the defensive positions
5. Toss can build a ridiculous economy while Terran tries to defend 3-4 bases
6. As soon as Terran moves out, Toss blinks into the main and just wrecks the production of T
After playing BW mod, I think the main problem are the chargelots insted of speedlots.
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On November 16 2013 00:37 Wombat_NI wrote:
I come from a Protoss perspective, played since release and started dabbling with Terran for fun in WoL.
Now, in WoL I was a real PvT specialist, far and away my best matchup, TvP was my best T matchup as well, given my decent knowledge of P builds. Also used to be my favourite matchup to watch when top Koreans were involved when TvZ got silly.
Part of the issue ever since the photon overcharge came into the game, is that it is such a crutch it's ridiculous.
Look at builds like Creators old style double forge PvT in WoL. The unit numbers were so exacting, the timings mapped out to be solid. 4 sentries and no more for the optimal safety/greed trade off. Immortals timed to hold the 2 medivac push and then cut out entirely. Terrans occasionally pressured with marines to snipe sentries and to force the P into deciding to rebuild, or to continue greedily teching etc.
I don't see that kind of carefully calculated build schematic being necessary in HoTS PvT. There are still fantastic players executing things well, but the MsC is like a free pass to the periods of the game where Protoss is strong.
The only time Protoss were really struggling in the matchup was when they were taking thirds at WoL timings and having speedvacs pull them apart. When they figured out to turtle and tech harder on 2 bases before expanding their Eco even speedvacs struggle to properly damage at old timings (non-commitally)
In addition to their macro styles being safer, they still have the aggressive/cheesy options open to them. Worse still, a Terran can't circumvent and counter as effectively due to photon overcharge.
Sorry to come across as whiny, I'm a self-hating Protoss. As ever I feel the key to interesting strategy games is a risk-reward element into decisions. Decisions Blizzard seem to refuse to make Protoss players make.
Warpgate - Better than gateways in every way, why not get it? Hey we could create an interesting dynamic between the reinforcement potential of Warpgates and something like augmented production rates from gateways. Hey let's not though. Let's give Protoss no such trade off to make, and by DEFAULT enable them to have both faster macro cycles and reinforcement potential
David Kim has stated that if one unit dominates the metagame - that is, if all other builds and strategies and clearly inferior (i.e. queens & WoL infestors) - patching/nerfing that unit will become their highest priority. people would call you a crackpot if you opened vT without a mothership core. hell, you even build it for one-base all-ins just to get vision. at least Blizzard acknowledged that queen/infestors were strong. I get the distinct feeling that the mothership core isn't even up for discussion.
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I don't think the design of protoss in sc2 will ever allow mech to be viable without breaking the other 2 matchups because tanks do 100 damage a shot or something absurd. To even get to a point where biomech is viable would be pretty amazing. If we look at the past few years though, the only thing that has become clear is that blizzard wants to keep bio as the only viable style because it jives with what they consider "interesting" and "exciting" play. This talk about making mech work is merely lip-service. These developers are intelligent enough to know that a 8% damage buff to tanks is not going to fix mech.
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On November 16 2013 01:47 Fission wrote:
I don't think the design of protoss in sc2 will ever allow mech to be viable without breaking the other 2 matchups because tanks do 100 damage a shot or something absurd. To even get to a point where biomech is viable would be pretty amazing. If we look at the past few years though, the only thing that has become clear is that blizzard wants to keep bio as the only viable style because it jives with what they consider "interesting" and "exciting" play. This talk about making mech work is merely lip-service. These developers are intelligent enough to know that a 8% damage buff to tanks is not going to fix mech.
if i remember D. Browder said he hates tanks because they offer turtlefest .. well they were wrong .. broodwar did not show that .. and tvp in sc2 is bio but showed that the first 10 minutes
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On November 16 2013 02:02 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 01:47 Fission wrote:
I don't think the design of protoss in sc2 will ever allow mech to be viable without breaking the other 2 matchups because tanks do 100 damage a shot or something absurd. To even get to a point where biomech is viable would be pretty amazing. If we look at the past few years though, the only thing that has become clear is that blizzard wants to keep bio as the only viable style because it jives with what they consider "interesting" and "exciting" play. This talk about making mech work is merely lip-service. These developers are intelligent enough to know that a 8% damage buff to tanks is not going to fix mech. if i remember D. Browder said he hates tanks because they offer turtlefest .. well they were wrong .. broodwar did not show that .. and tvp in sc2 is bio but showed that the first 10 minutes
In BW the economy gave you an incentive to attack + in BW TvP Vultures were also really strong.
With the way Sc2 is designed, buffing Tanks will just lead to more stale games.
Also it was David Kim who said that. 
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On November 16 2013 01:47 Fission wrote:
I don't think the design of protoss in sc2 will ever allow mech to be viable without breaking the other 2 matchups because tanks do 100 damage a shot or something absurd. To even get to a point where biomech is viable would be pretty amazing. If we look at the past few years though, the only thing that has become clear is that blizzard wants to keep bio as the only viable style because it jives with what they consider "interesting" and "exciting" play. This talk about making mech work is merely lip-service. These developers are intelligent enough to know that a 8% damage buff to tanks is not going to fix mech.
Indeed, SC2 Protoss will automatically render mech weaker than in BW, but actually they can tweaks some things to make it stronger in TvP with limited or even zero impact in other match-ups. Since they have already conceded ugly solutions such as bonus damage against niche types with +X vs bio or +X vs shields, they could use that again. Sieged Tanks could also do with a +X bonus to massive targets to help against Archons, and even Colossi; it would only affect Thors in TvT (which raises no issue), and ultras in TvZ (again no issue as sieged Tanks underperform against them anyway). This was already done with the Voidray in WoL. They could also rethink the damage distribution, i. e. increasing the damage to the main target while decreasing the splash around to maintain the same global damage value; as Protoss armies are made of a lower unit count with a bigger individual size, this would help. Etc. etc. There are solutions, they just don't want to implement them.
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On November 16 2013 02:07 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 02:02 goody153 wrote:On November 16 2013 01:47 Fission wrote:
I don't think the design of protoss in sc2 will ever allow mech to be viable without breaking the other 2 matchups because tanks do 100 damage a shot or something absurd. To even get to a point where biomech is viable would be pretty amazing. If we look at the past few years though, the only thing that has become clear is that blizzard wants to keep bio as the only viable style because it jives with what they consider "interesting" and "exciting" play. This talk about making mech work is merely lip-service. These developers are intelligent enough to know that a 8% damage buff to tanks is not going to fix mech. if i remember D. Browder said he hates tanks because they offer turtlefest .. well they were wrong .. broodwar did not show that .. and tvp in sc2 is bio but showed that the first 10 minutes In BW the economy gave you an incentive to attack + in BW TvP Vultures were also really strong. With the way Sc2 is designed, buffing Tanks will just lead to more stale games. Also it was David Kim who said that.
If anything, they should buff the battle hellion back to being viable and make it so the tranformation doesn't take a month.
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The thing is, if you buff mech too much, you aren't enhancing diversity, you're just creating another stale state, where people go mech every game instead of going bio every game. That isn't a better result.
If you're after diversity, what you should be aiming for is a state where you can actually transition. Protoss starts to have an army that counters your bio too well, with a lot of colossi and templars? Then transition into mech. Then, when the protoss starts to be too good vs mech, switch to air or to bio.
Of course, you can't really do that with terran in the current state. As a non-terran player, I always felt that that was the major problem that you were encountering: tech switching being completely suboptimal, when compared to staying on the same tech even when getting hardcountered.
Then again, I'm casually surprised that everyone sees this as a problem now, when it's been the case from the start of the game, and nobody ever cared.
On another note, I've tried the new oracle and I don't see the good of that change. It looks like they're trying to push forward a style of play that didn't need pushing forward (people were already using it), and that doesn't produce more interesting games (diversity being, as we have all recently agreed, way better).
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Sorry if this is written already, but when might this patch be released?
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On November 16 2013 02:27 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Sorry if this is written already, but when might this patch be released?
It´s active already.
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On November 16 2013 02:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 02:07 Hider wrote:On November 16 2013 02:02 goody153 wrote:On November 16 2013 01:47 Fission wrote:
I don't think the design of protoss in sc2 will ever allow mech to be viable without breaking the other 2 matchups because tanks do 100 damage a shot or something absurd. To even get to a point where biomech is viable would be pretty amazing. If we look at the past few years though, the only thing that has become clear is that blizzard wants to keep bio as the only viable style because it jives with what they consider "interesting" and "exciting" play. This talk about making mech work is merely lip-service. These developers are intelligent enough to know that a 8% damage buff to tanks is not going to fix mech. if i remember D. Browder said he hates tanks because they offer turtlefest .. well they were wrong .. broodwar did not show that .. and tvp in sc2 is bio but showed that the first 10 minutes In BW the economy gave you an incentive to attack + in BW TvP Vultures were also really strong. With the way Sc2 is designed, buffing Tanks will just lead to more stale games. Also it was David Kim who said that. If anything, they should buff the battle hellion back to being viable and make it so the tranformation doesn't take a month.
Its possible that could work with this some tweaking. This way for instance Hellbats wouldn't be so useful vs long-range units that easily can kite it, as you would be able to transform the hellbat into a hellion --> catch up to the long-ranged unit --> Transform into hellbat and kill it.
But im really not sure we can do that without breaking the game. For instance it will be extremely good vs speedlings that attempt to surround hellions (it will backfire against them), and I am not sure how practical that micro really is/how efficient it is.
Therefore, I still believe it needs to cost the same amount of minerals as a Vulture. Now I expect that Blizzard chose to increase the cost to 100 minerals due to the introduction of the Mule. But the problem with that logic is that it makes the opportunity cost of turtling behind OC's, PLanetaries, turret lines too little, which means that mech is better off using excessive minerals on defensive/turtling than offensive support units --> Creates lame game.
So if we only could change one unit, I suggest we make the Hellion/hellbat cost 75 minerals while nerfing its damge vs light by 5 (roughly) and HP by 10 or so.
Balancing TvT mech vs bio
So in the case where we buff mech, its obvious that bio will be unplayable in TvT if we don't nerf mech in another way. IMO that's actually easily fixable by nerfing/redesigning one of the most flawed units in the game: The Viking!
The Viking in TvT simply serves to prevent fun stuff from happening. In BW TvT, mech was often times kinda fast-paced as dropplay was very strong. In Sc2, that's just too easily preventable due to the viking. So the Viking needs a change IMO - I suggest to make it faster (more harrasasble) while reducing its damage vs Armored.
Then the Raven also need to be 3 supply --> Makes the 200 supply mech army a little less extreme.
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On November 16 2013 02:28 Viserion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 02:27 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Sorry if this is written already, but when might this patch be released? It´s active already.
Its not live, there are still the test maps thou, Thought I heard that its suppose to be 2 weeks after wcs grand finals
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United Kingdom12042 Posts
Bio shouldn't need to be able to go toe to toe with mech. If anything bio should be bad against mech as bio has the ability to zip zoop around everywhere. Bio should not be able to run into a positioned mech army with just one round of units and win, it should be like Protoss was in BW in the fact they'd have to use their early map control to get lots of bases and then remax a few times to finally break down the mech.
It's a joke that Marauders and Marines can just stim up and kill a mech army, it's incredibly stupid.
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On November 16 2013 02:28 Hider wrote:
Balancing TvT mech vs bio
So in the case where we buff mech, its obvious that bio will be unplayable in TvT if we don't nerf mech in another way. IMO that's actually easily fixable by nerfing/redesigning one of the most flawed units in the game: The Viking!
The Viking in TvT simply serves to prevent fun stuff from happening. In BW TvT, mech was often times kinda fast-paced as dropplay was very strong. In Sc2, that's just too easily preventable due to the viking. So the Viking needs a change IMO - I suggest to make it faster (more harrasasble) while reducing its damage vs Armored.
Then the Raven also need to be 3 supply --> Makes the 200 supply mech army a little less extreme.
Well, I'd say until before that patch (the samplesize for after the patch is basically nonexistent) bio TvT was the norm. Like even on very turtly maps like Akilon, the top Terrans (Bomber, Innovation, Polt, Taeja) usually go bio.
Not to mention that I can't really see Mech ever becoming the goto TvT style on maps like Whirlwind or Alterzim.
So currently I think we shouldn't worry too much about TvT when making Mech playable, for as long as blizzard doesn't go completely overboard with anything I believe that bio(mech) will stay viable.
About the Viking, I don't quite get what you are aiming at with this proposal. Dmg reduction vs armored doesn't change anything in TvT apart from BCs getting stronger and Vikings killing Vikings slower (so that the lower Viking count isn't punished as hard I guess, when it comes to those airsuperiority battles for the extra tankrange), since Medivac, banshee and Raven are all light.
Meanwhile the extra speed for Vikings makes them even better at intercepting/following Medivacs and banshees.
woops. Medivacs are armored... :D
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Well, I'd say until before that patch (the samplesize for after the patch is basically nonexistent) bio TvT was the norm. Like even on very turtly maps like Akilon, the top Terrans (Bomber, Innovation, Polt, Taeja) usually go bio.
That's just a few selected players. Bomber, Polt and Taeja for instance have always preferred marine/tank over mech. Innovation I think goes roughly 50-50 mech and bio - He can't really seem to figure out his TvT so he is just going a bit back and fourth.
According to Bunny (on one of the recent episodes on Meta), almost everyone on EU ladder goes mech TvT.
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On November 16 2013 01:44 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 00:37 Wombat_NI wrote:
I come from a Protoss perspective, played since release and started dabbling with Terran for fun in WoL.
Now, in WoL I was a real PvT specialist, far and away my best matchup, TvP was my best T matchup as well, given my decent knowledge of P builds. Also used to be my favourite matchup to watch when top Koreans were involved when TvZ got silly.
Part of the issue ever since the photon overcharge came into the game, is that it is such a crutch it's ridiculous.
Look at builds like Creators old style double forge PvT in WoL. The unit numbers were so exacting, the timings mapped out to be solid. 4 sentries and no more for the optimal safety/greed trade off. Immortals timed to hold the 2 medivac push and then cut out entirely. Terrans occasionally pressured with marines to snipe sentries and to force the P into deciding to rebuild, or to continue greedily teching etc.
I don't see that kind of carefully calculated build schematic being necessary in HoTS PvT. There are still fantastic players executing things well, but the MsC is like a free pass to the periods of the game where Protoss is strong.
The only time Protoss were really struggling in the matchup was when they were taking thirds at WoL timings and having speedvacs pull them apart. When they figured out to turtle and tech harder on 2 bases before expanding their Eco even speedvacs struggle to properly damage at old timings (non-commitally)
In addition to their macro styles being safer, they still have the aggressive/cheesy options open to them. Worse still, a Terran can't circumvent and counter as effectively due to photon overcharge.
Sorry to come across as whiny, I'm a self-hating Protoss. As ever I feel the key to interesting strategy games is a risk-reward element into decisions. Decisions Blizzard seem to refuse to make Protoss players make.
Warpgate - Better than gateways in every way, why not get it? Hey we could create an interesting dynamic between the reinforcement potential of Warpgates and something like augmented production rates from gateways. Hey let's not though. Let's give Protoss no such trade off to make, and by DEFAULT enable them to have both faster macro cycles and reinforcement potential
David Kim has stated that if one unit dominates the metagame - that is, if all other builds and strategies and clearly inferior (i.e. queens & WoL infestors) - patching/nerfing that unit will become their highest priority. people would call you a crackpot if you opened vT without a mothership core. hell, you even build it for one-base all-ins just to get vision. at least Blizzard acknowledged that queen/infestors were strong. I get the distinct feeling that the mothership core isn't even up for discussion.
It's not. PvP is sh*t without it, and it's done wonders for PvZ and PvT. It's not going anywhere. It's an essential part of toss play, it's as much a part of the race now as researching warp gate. Minor nerfs to nexus cannon AT BEST.
The WP argument is super silly as well. It's essential upgrade, it's not meant to be cute and "give options". It's like researching stim. It's needed in every game, and that's ok.
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On November 16 2013 02:38 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 02:28 Viserion wrote:On November 16 2013 02:27 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Sorry if this is written already, but when might this patch be released? It´s active already. Its not live, there are still the test maps thou, Thought I heard that its suppose to be 2 weeks after wcs grand finals
It's live for 3 days now. Lol.
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On November 16 2013 03:30 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 02:38 SuperYo1000 wrote:On November 16 2013 02:28 Viserion wrote:On November 16 2013 02:27 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Sorry if this is written already, but when might this patch be released? It´s active already. Its not live, there are still the test maps thou, Thought I heard that its suppose to be 2 weeks after wcs grand finals It's live for 3 days now. Lol.
really? wth....then something is wrong where I'm at cuz I checked the tank this morning and still same old one
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On November 16 2013 02:22 Nebuchad wrote:
The thing is, if you buff mech too much, you aren't enhancing diversity, you're just creating another stale state, where people go mech every game instead of going bio every game. That isn't a better result.
Theoretically it depends. If, for instance, Blizzard was to make it so 4M vs Zerg every game becomes 4M + Tanks every game, the second state would likely be better as Tank-based play adds depths and creates more interesting interactions and dynamics. Despite this, you would still have "the same composition" in both states of TvZ.
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On November 16 2013 03:33 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 03:30 Faust852 wrote:On November 16 2013 02:38 SuperYo1000 wrote:On November 16 2013 02:28 Viserion wrote:On November 16 2013 02:27 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Sorry if this is written already, but when might this patch be released? It´s active already. Its not live, there are still the test maps thou, Thought I heard that its suppose to be 2 weeks after wcs grand finals It's live for 3 days now. Lol. really? wth....then something is wrong where I'm at cuz I checked the tank this morning and still same old one
It's the same old one. Maybe you didn't notice it shoots one more time every minute tho.
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EPT
