On November 15 2013 22:26 marvellosity wrote: TheDwf sure does bitch a lot, doesn't he?
He subscribes to the Idra mindset of SC2, which damages your play more that any imbalance ever will.
Yet another random assumption based on nothing.
It's a quote from Jaedong, who told EGxenocider that thinking the game is unfair and imbalanced does more damage to your play than any real imbalance. Do you not trust Jaedongs advice?
I dont give a shit if its the pope who said it. Are you some kind of authoritarian? There are plenty of progamers who complain a lot and are succesful and plenty of progamers who are always quiet as a mouse and yet succeed at nothing. None of it is relevant, most peoples goal isn't to win blizzcon but to play a fun and fair game. When protoss has 10 million earlygame options, all with low risk and high reward ratio, on top of that being impervious to all earlygame attacks with the easiest defence out of all the three races thanks to momacore AND the strongest lategame army AND the least apmintensive harassment (amove dts/zealots into minerallines)... guess what, its neither fun nor balanced.
I regret answering you already. Your posts are almost always a complete waste of space.
I truly believe there is something on going with Blizzard. They can't be possibly that blind and completely ignore the bullshit early game TvP is all about right now. Either they only watch very top Korean Terrans who are right now about to be fucked by this patch, or they only watch their 50/50 numbers (which I don't know where are they getting from btw lol).
On November 16 2013 00:16 Everlong wrote: I truly believe there is something on going with Blizzard. They can't be possibly that blind and completely ignore the bullshit early game TvP is all about right now. Either they only watch very top Korean Terrans who are right now about to be fucked by this patch, or they only watch their 50/50 numbers (which I don't know where are they getting from btw lol).
It wouldn't bother me so much if they hadn't butchered all terran early game aggression by nerfing hellbats and mines just before this patch. While the MSC still exists.
Buffing protoss early game aggression is like buffing medivacs, why would you buff the race where its already the strongest?
On November 16 2013 00:16 Everlong wrote: I truly believe there is something on going with Blizzard. They can't be possibly that blind and completely ignore the bullshit early game TvP is all about right now. Either they only watch very top Korean Terrans who are right now about to be fucked by this patch, or they only watch their 50/50 numbers (which I don't know where are they getting from btw lol).
It wouldn't bother me so much if they hadn't butchered all terran early game aggression by nerfing hellbats and mines just before this patch. While the MSC still exists.
Buffing protoss early game aggression is like buffing medivacs, why would you buff the race where its already the strongest?
Even though you have a Zerg Emblem I love you like a Terran Brother <3 hahaha It's really true they are just reinforcing Protoss. My question is to DK is iG.Jim is Son or something? Does he want to see him succeed and he was having problems against Terran and this is his way at making him succeed? hahahaha How was Jim knocked out of the tournament if someone can refresh my memory
On November 16 2013 00:32 peidongyang wrote: oh well at least dk justifies his changes...
unlike icefraud...
Milad I thought you were perma-banned? Yea Dk's Justification is pretty much a shrug of his shoulders and "ahhh what the hell it makes it more interesting to watch doesn't it?"
I come from a Protoss perspective, played since release and started dabbling with Terran for fun in WoL.
Now, in WoL I was a real PvT specialist, far and away my best matchup, TvP was my best T matchup as well, given my decent knowledge of P builds. Also used to be my favourite matchup to watch when top Koreans were involved when TvZ got silly.
Part of the issue ever since the photon overcharge came into the game, is that it is such a crutch it's ridiculous.
Look at builds like Creators old style double forge PvT in WoL. The unit numbers were so exacting, the timings mapped out to be solid. 4 sentries and no more for the optimal safety/greed trade off. Immortals timed to hold the 2 medivac push and then cut out entirely. Terrans occasionally pressured with marines to snipe sentries and to force the P into deciding to rebuild, or to continue greedily teching etc.
I don't see that kind of carefully calculated build schematic being necessary in HoTS PvT. There are still fantastic players executing things well, but the MsC is like a free pass to the periods of the game where Protoss is strong.
The only time Protoss were really struggling in the matchup was when they were taking thirds at WoL timings and having speedvacs pull them apart. When they figured out to turtle and tech harder on 2 bases before expanding their Eco even speedvacs struggle to properly damage at old timings (non-commitally)
In addition to their macro styles being safer, they still have the aggressive/cheesy options open to them. Worse still, a Terran can't circumvent and counter as effectively due to photon overcharge.
Sorry to come across as whiny, I'm a self-hating Protoss. As ever I feel the key to interesting strategy games is a risk-reward element into decisions. Decisions Blizzard seem to refuse to make Protoss players make.
Warpgate - Better than gateways in every way, why not get it? Hey we could create an interesting dynamic between the reinforcement potential of Warpgates and something like augmented production rates from gateways. Hey let's not though. Let's give Protoss no such trade off to make, and by DEFAULT enable them to have both faster macro cycles and reinforcement potential
On November 16 2013 00:32 peidongyang wrote: oh well at least dk justifies his changes...
unlike icefraud...
Why would IceFrog justify his changes? :D
Those are two completely different games, and unlike RTS games, MOBAs are everlasting team games that are changing all the times, and will continue to be like that so that picks, strategies and trends constantly keep changing. Games like these are not the games where some small change can completely change the outcome of the games played, so he has to change a lot of things to completely shake the so called "meta", and there are too many changes for him to justify everything, in the end, there are players and teams to figure the patch out.
But it is enough about DotA 2 in this thread, we are going way off topic here.
On November 16 2013 00:37 Wombat_NI wrote: I come from a Protoss perspective, played since release and started dabbling with Terran for fun in WoL.
Now, in WoL I was a real PvT specialist, far and away my best matchup, TvP was my best T matchup as well, given my decent knowledge of P builds. Also used to be my favourite matchup to watch when top Koreans were involved when TvZ got silly.
Part of the issue ever since the photon overcharge came into the game, is that it is such a crutch it's ridiculous.
Look at builds like Creators old style double forge PvT in WoL. The unit numbers were so exacting, the timings mapped out to be solid. 4 sentries and no more for the optimal safety/greed trade off. Immortals timed to hold the 2 medivac push and then cut out entirely. Terrans occasionally pressured with marines to snipe sentries and to force the P into deciding to rebuild, or to continue greedily teching etc.
I don't see that kind of carefully calculated build schematic being necessary in HoTS PvT. There are still fantastic players executing things well, but the MsC is like a free pass to the periods of the game where Protoss is strong.
The only time Protoss were really struggling in the matchup was when they were taking thirds at WoL timings and having speedvacs pull them apart. When they figured out to turtle and tech harder on 2 bases before expanding their Eco even speedvacs struggle to properly damage at old timings (non-commitally)
In addition to their macro styles being safer, they still have the aggressive/cheesy options open to them. Worse still, a Terran can't circumvent and counter as effectively due to photon overcharge.
Sorry to come across as whiny, I'm a self-hating Protoss. As ever I feel the key to interesting strategy games is a risk-reward element into decisions. Decisions Blizzard seem to refuse to make Protoss players make.
Warpgate - Better than gateways in every way, why not get it? Hey we could create an interesting dynamic between the reinforcement potential of Warpgates and something like augmented production rates from gateways. Hey let's not though. Let's give Protoss no such trade off to make, and by DEFAULT enable them to have both faster macro cycles and reinforcement potential
**CLap Clap Clap Clap*** Admitting it is the first step
Seriously, Thank you for your contribution coming from both sides as a Protoss and Terran you atleast see what we are talking about. That we aren't just balance whining just to whine these are serious concerns that are limiting the potential of what could be an AMAZING game fun for everyone in every match up.
On November 16 2013 00:40 Faust852 wrote: Innovation playing mech in TvP, doesn't work at all :/
It's really painful to watch. How easily the Protoss trashes him with simple Blink Stalkers + Immortals dual-pronged attacks. Not even Zealots, not even Stargate units.
well its the idea that from the beginning the VERY beginning that Protoss was made so that Mech would never be able to play against it..........
Edit: I bought the game the Day it came out in 2010 and was BW player so ofcourse I was opening with 1 Fact expand and tried using tanks..... I was IN diamond then but soon realized that Immortals and blink stalker Rape you no matter what you do .... its just the reality of how the race was created....
On November 16 2013 00:40 Faust852 wrote: Innovation playing mech in TvP, doesn't work at all :/
It's really painful to watch. How easily the Protoss trashes him with simple Blink Stalkers + Immortals dual-pronged attacks. Not even Zealots, not even Stargate units.
Yeah, that is what you get when you play versus Protoss decent enought to know how to exploit the biggest mech issues.
im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment
On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote: im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment
Yes, he was actually playing solid, even getting ghosts, but all it takes is 1 blink in the main between the production to lose... And once you are on 4 bases it is so hard to cover ground with mech so it is bound to happen.
Mech can only work in a super slow mega turtle way... no activity on the map is allowed because your units will never be back in time to stop those blink stalkers to destroy your production.
On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote: im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment
On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote: im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment
He plays it the wrong way thoough. If there is any way mech is going to be semiviable its going to consist of banshee/raven play. Either in form of turtle or a harass-oriented style.
or they only watch their 50/50 numbers (which I don't know where are they getting from btw lol)
That's quite obvious though. The way the ladder works, it will always be very close to 50-50 since you get matched up against similarly skilled players. That statistic will only drop below 50% if terran is much stronger vs zerg than vs protoss. Atm. the stats kinda give the impression that at the ladder terran is equally underpowered against both races.
The "underpowerness" arises from the fact that terran is hugely underrepsented in the higher leagues, which means that the master league terran players are relatively superior to the protoss/zerg master league players.
Source: Sc2ranks.
Further, you can also add some type of survivor-ship bias as terran in WOL was the most played race back then. But after having been nerfed multiple times, the "weakest"/most gimmicky terran players stopped playing terran/switched race, which means that the terran players left are stronger than their protoss/zerg-counter parts.
I fear that Blizzard had a statistican develop the MMR balance thing, but never told David Kim how to interpret the statistics, which means that David Kim is using flawed numbers to balance the game.
you have to take in consideration that while bio play has been developed for Years, Mech in TvP has not been developed at all. It's not surprising to see it not work now since there isn't a standard way to play mech in TvP. Mech in TvZ was pretty horrible and abandoned until Mvp comes in and gives us a nice opening.
On November 16 2013 01:04 ETisME wrote: you have to take in consideration that while bio play has been developed for Years, Mech in TvP has not been developed at all. It's not surprising to see it not work now since there isn't a standard way to play mech in TvP. Mech in TvZ was pretty horrible and abandoned until Mvp comes in and gives us a nice opening.
Dude, there are players who play mech exclusively in all matchups... Even when you win it is a long, boring and painful experience... and we are talking about winning on NA ladder, not really the highest level of play.
On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote: im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment
He plays it the wrong way thoough. If there is any way mech is going to be semiviable its going to consist of banshee/raven play. Either in form of turtle or a harass-oriented style.
This is what Blizzard refuses to understand, nr20 into "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Banshees/Ravens" (lol) is ridiculous and cannot seriously be called "mech" when you end up with such a bizarre army with more specialized spellcasters and unidimensional "counters to counters" than mech in it.
On November 16 2013 01:06 Qwerty85 wrote: Dude, there are players who play mech exclusively in all matchups... Even when you win it is a long, boring and painful experience... and we are talking about winning on NA ladder, not really the highest level of play.
No mech discussion is ever complete without the "but mech is unexplored" card.
EPT
