EPTBecause tanks are trash on most maps.
HotS Balance Update - November 11 - Page 77
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
Because tanks are trash on most maps. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 15 2013 21:33 TheDwf wrote: This is how you summarize Terran problems against Zerg at the end of WoL? Never said that this was a summary of "the Terran problems at the end of WoL". But it's a fact that in the early stages of BL/Infestor said composition very often got beaten by stimming under it (of course with viking support, don't even begin to make a list of things I may not be arguing since this is somewhat of a short comment) and same thing works pretty well this far in HotS as well (though mines and drops of course are the enabling powers behind it). Especially since you considered WoL to be totally balanced in these early BL/Infestor stages middle-end of 2011, even after the ghostnerf (since you said so a thousand times that it was the "queen patch" that broke the matchup and it was balanced before), you should know what I'm talking about. Oh no, 1at doesn't work anymore, game is broken? Please. Don't even get what you want to tell me with that. Do you want to make a sarcastic strawmen in which I say something like "Terrans were whining because they couldn't 1a anymore and therefore said the game was broken" Or do you imply that I'm saying that Broodlord/Infestor was 1a and now you want to show me as someone who claims that the game is broken because it doesn't work anymore? In anycase, it is a strawmen. Since in the first case I didn't say that Terrans were 1a-ing and in the second case you won't find a comment from me saying that HotS is/was broken. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On November 15 2013 19:54 Fjodorov wrote: Kas vs Hero yesterday was a nice exhibition of how game ending oracles can be. If im not mistaken he went gasless 1rax FE into 2 more rax. So he could have been in a much worse position lol What did he die to? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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Magnifico
1958 Posts
Right now I was watching Desmuslim stream and he was making a "interesting" point about how oracles are better than banshes and why this make them imba. Like, doesn't make sense, right? But the master mind of Terran' redditors and TL users soon got the affirmative feedback from his puppets. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On November 15 2013 18:11 Big J wrote: yes. But you can say that for other playstyles as well, and man got we a lot of whining when Terrans couldn't just stim into Broodlord/Infestor anymore. And man did we get a lot of "oh, HotS is so awesome" when they finally could do it again. Tanks are not the only units that are very immobile, hard to reach a good count of, yet still can be overrun easily. At least by bio. Ah, and btw, your numbers are wrong. It's 1shot to kill a pack of zerglings. I think you should keep this 'high-level insight' for battlene forumst/twitch chats. Unless you want to raise your posts count on TL as it seems that you are already doing that. | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:26 marvellosity wrote: TheDwf sure does bitch a lot, doesn't he? Yh he's GM and most of the time 100% right and backs stuff up with actual data/games. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:14 PanzerElite wrote: Because tanks are trash on most maps. Switching into tanks is a pretty huge change, expect it to be a good while before terrans adapt. Currently they'll be doing bio mine in tournaments because it's not that much worse and they haven't found time to figure out some good tank styles. Tanks aren't cheap and are pretty damn fragile in tvz, not being sieged at the right time or having mutas pick them off can lose you games Except bomber of course, who is probably delighted. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:27 Tiaraju9 wrote: Terran players are definitely delusional. They live in a terrible world where David Kim, the laws of nature and Obama conspires against them, against the hardest and weakest of the Starcraft' races. Right now I was watching Desmuslim stream and he was making a "interesting" point about how oracles are better than banshes and why this make them imba. Like, doesn't make sense, right? But the master mind of Terran' redditors and TL users soon got the affirmative feedback from his puppets. So we should just accept your opinion that oracles are not better than banshees as a fact just because you say so? Demuslim can be whiny sometimes but if you watch his stream regularly, he has very good analytical approach.. Sure banshees are better in some ways, they have more range and they can cloack. But also there are drawbacks. They come full 2 minutes later than oracle, can't directly engage the marines (can kite them but not straight up engage which gives terran more time to get the viking or turret out) and they are much slower and harder to micro than oracle which makes it easier to kill them. Oracles come faster than banshees, they are good both against workers and terran earliest anti air units (marines), they have superior speed and acceleration and dps (while they have the energy) etc. So I don't see how you can dismiss that oracles are better than banshees without giving your arguments on the matter instead of just saying that it doesn't make sense. Also, we must not forget that pro players use what works not what is best on paper. Even some pros like sos and parting said they are very very good and we see them all the time in protoss matchups. We don't see banshee play nearly as much as oracle play. Edit: and nobody sane is suggesting there is some conspiracy against terran, we just question the competence of the balance team since their reasoning behind the changes doesn't often correspond to the actual changes they make. If you want to make an early game unit like oracle better in the late game (which is a problem according to Blizz, not the oracle in the early game), why not give it a researchable speed upgrade at a building that can be constructed in late game scenarios. Instead, they make it better without any upgrade, thus making it even better in the early game.. Is there no flaw in their logic? | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:30 PanzerElite wrote: Yh he's GM and most of the time 100% right and backs stuff up with actual data/games. "Most of the time 100% right", as much as Avilo and Idra are, I suppose... | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:15 Big J wrote: Nope. Like basically anytime you answer me it is again a strawman. Never said that this was a summary of "the Terran problems at the end of WoL". But it's a fact that in the early stages of BL/Infestor said composition very often got beaten by stimming under it (of course with viking support, don't even begin to make a list of things I may not be arguing since this is somewhat of a short comment) and same thing works pretty well this far in HotS as well (though mines and drops of course are the enabling powers behind it). Especially since you considered WoL to be totally balanced in these early BL/Infestor stages middle-end of 2011, even after the ghostnerf (since you said so a thousand times that it was the "queen patch" that broke the matchup and it was balanced before), you should know what I'm talking about. Don't even get what you want to tell me with that. Do you want to make a sarcastic strawmen in which I say something like "Terrans were whining because they couldn't 1a anymore and therefore said the game was broken" Or do you imply that I'm saying that Broodlord/Infestor was 1a and now you want to show me as someone who claims that the game is broken because it doesn't work anymore? In anycase, it is a strawmen. Since in the first case I didn't say that Terrans were 1a-ing and in the second case you won't find a comment from me saying that HotS is/was broken. Is “strawman” the new word you learnt this week? Terrans were complaining at the end of the WoL not because "they couldn't just stim into broods/infests anymore," but because nothing reliably worked against a competent opponent, from this method to Vikings/Ravens transitions, Nukes, multi-pronged drops or whatever. You're putting words in my mouth regarding the balance of WoL TvZ, which is quite ironic when you claim I use nothing but strawman (do I get points for using the word?); I even remember one of my first posts regarding patchs was to explain how the Snipe nerf would leave Terran too vulnerable to tier3 Zerg tech switches because Terran's infrastructure didn't have the flexibility of Zerg's production. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:26 marvellosity wrote: TheDwf sure does bitch a lot, doesn't he? He subscribes to the Idra mindset of SC2, which damages your play more that any imbalance ever will. | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:31 iaguz wrote: Switching into tanks is a pretty huge change, expect it to be a good while before terrans adapt. Currently they'll be doing bio mine in tournaments because it's not that much worse and they haven't found time to figure out some good tank styles. Tanks aren't cheap and are pretty damn fragile in tvz, not being sieged at the right time or having mutas pick them off can lose you games Except bomber of course, who is probably delighted. All wol marine tank builds still exist, it's not like the usage of tanks would revolutionize tvz. But still marine tank armies are so bad on most of this seasons maps. Most maps are just far to open for tank armies. The game on Yeonsu by Bomber you could see soulkey who just transitioned to sc2 played vs marine tank like it was 4m sending small packs of lings in all the time. Soulkey should have massed his forces and then just overwhelmed Bomber's army. Do you think that would have worked vs DRG who's used to play vs tank armies? I personally don't think so, since DRG beat Bomber multiple times doing his 14 min marine tank max builds. O and DRG did that with ling bling muta and muta's are even better now. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:44 Ramiz1989 wrote: "Most of the time 100% right", as much as Avilo and Idra are, I suppose... When someone gets a reputation of being whiny and unreasonable, people will make a mockery out of that person even if he sometimes makes sense. Avilo plays mech on regular basis, maybe his approach to expose the flaws of mech isn't the best in rhetorical sense, but he does have some good points and certainly has much more experience with mech than 99% of the people here, including Blizzard's balance team. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:47 Plansix wrote: He subscribes to the Idra mindset of SC2, which damages your play more that any imbalance ever will. Yet another random assumption based on nothing. | ||
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Muffloe
Sweden6061 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:47 Plansix wrote: He subscribes to the Idra mindset of SC2, which damages your play more that any imbalance ever will. Haha, so spot on ! | ||
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goody153
44230 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/AcerInnovation | ||
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Magnifico
1958 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:38 Qwerty85 wrote: So we should just accept your opinion that oracles are not better than banshees as a fact just because you say so? Demuslim can be whiny sometimes but if you watch his stream regularly, he has very good analytical approach.. Sure banshees are better in some ways, they have more range and they can cloack. But also there are drawbacks. They come full 2 minutes later than oracle, can't directly engage the marines (can kite them but not straight up engage which gives terran more time to get the viking or turret out) and they are much slower and harder to micro than oracle which makes it easier to kill them. Oracles come faster than banshees, they are good both against workers and terran earliest anti air units (marines), they have superior speed and acceleration and dps (while they have the energy) etc. So I don't see how you can dismiss that oracles are better than banshees without giving your arguments on the matter instead of just saying that it doesn't make sense. Also, we must not forget that pro players use what works not what is best on paper. Even some pros like sos and parting said they are very very good and we see them all the time in protoss matchups. We don't see banshee play nearly as much as oracle play. Edit: and nobody sane is suggesting there is some conspiracy against terran, we just question the competence of the balance team since their reasoning behind the changes doesn't often correspond to the actual changes they make. If you want to make an early game unit like oracle better in the late game (which is a problem according to Blizz, not the oracle in the early game), why not give it a researchable speed upgrade at a building that can be constructed in late game scenarios. Instead, they make it better without any upgrade, thus making it even better in the early game.. Is there no flaw in their logic? You missed the point. You can't isolate two units and then to compare them. That's the logical flaw. Makes zero sense. | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:47 Plansix wrote: He subscribes to the Idra mindset of SC2, which damages your play more that any imbalance ever will. I think you mean "I subscribe", all you've posted in the balance thread was unconstructive complaining about Terran. And provoking Terran users with rubbish just like in this quote. At least TheDwf uses games to support his arguments when it comes to balance talk. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:58 Tiaraju9 wrote: You missed the point. You can't isolate two units and then to compare them. That's the logical flaw. Makes zero sense. Indeed, there is not much point with a comparison in a vacuum. Still, something tells me that some things were missing in your recap of DeMusliM's arguments... | ||
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