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On November 15 2013 17:41 Bagi wrote:
Its a shame we really never got a good grasp of what a 50 flat damage tank could do, Blizzard nerfed them to crap when everyone was still awful and playing on steppes of war.
It has always seemed like the most logical way to buff the tank to me, but we all know how Blizzard feels about pulling back changes that they've applied to the game.
It would rip to shreds protoss and zerg players that think that they can engage tank lines head on. As it should be. Mech should be super powerful buth highly immobile. Right now mech is both pathetically weak (5 shots to kill a zealot and 2 to kill a measly zergling, really?) and immobile. Terran has basically been forced into the same playstyle for three years now and the only thing that makes it interesting to watch is the fact that it's highly active, very volatile and mines add a fun amount of randomness to it (a bit like reaver shots in BW: sometimes they kill entire worker lines but sometimes they end up being duds).
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On November 15 2013 18:07 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 17:41 Bagi wrote:
Its a shame we really never got a good grasp of what a 50 flat damage tank could do, Blizzard nerfed them to crap when everyone was still awful and playing on steppes of war.
It has always seemed like the most logical way to buff the tank to me, but we all know how Blizzard feels about pulling back changes that they've applied to the game. It would rip to shreds protoss and zerg players that think that they can engage tank lines head on. As it should be. Mech should be super powerful buth highly immobile. Right now mech is both pathetically weak (5 shots to kill a zealot and 2 to kill a measly zergling, really?) and immobile. Terran has basically been forced into the same playstyle for three years now and the only thing that makes it interesting to watch is the fact that it's highly active, very volatile and mines add a fun amount of randomness to it (a bit like reaver shots in BW: sometimes they kill entire worker lines but sometimes they end up being duds).
yes. But you can say that for other playstyles as well, and man got we a lot of whining when Terrans couldn't just stim into Broodlord/Infestor anymore. And man did we get a lot of "oh, HotS is so awesome" when they finally could do it again.
Tanks are not the only units that are very immobile, hard to reach a good count of, yet still can be overrun easily. At least by bio.
Ah, and btw, your numbers are wrong.
It's 1shot to kill a pack of zerglings.
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Technically it's 2 shots when tanks are at 0 attack upgrade and lings have +1 armor or more, otherwise 1 shot.
Which is actually not that irrelevant given that zerg armor upgrades usually come before mech upgrades.
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On November 15 2013 18:21 BobMcJohnson wrote:
Technically it's 2 shots when tanks are at 0 attack upgrade and lings have +1 armor or more, otherwise 1 shot.
Which is actually not that irrelevant given that zerg armor upgrades usually come before mech upgrades.
That's why Marine/Tank/Medivac was always played with Mech vehicle attack upgrades. It's not irrelevant. But for the most part it's for 2mins, and then it can't happen again, since tanks get +3(+2) damage.
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On November 15 2013 17:28 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 17:23 maartendq wrote:
So this patch basically means that:
2) tanks are still borderline useless (and will remain useless until they receive a straight-up damage buff, i.e. 50 damage against everything);
That i agree with, it would help with tvp alot. it would mean it would take 3 shots to kill a zelot instead of 5 which would make toss think twice b4 just trying to 1a a mech army like they do atm as it would spread out the tanks shots much better making each volley do far more splash dmg across the entire army and they would be much better against archons, instead of 10 shots it would only take 7. (these are all un-upgraded btw). Not sure if it would unbalance tvz but it wouldn't make to much of a difference in tvt, would just mean combat sheilds would be a super importaint upgrade as it would mean marines take 2 shots instead of 1. Maybe making tanks 4 supply instead of 3 to compensate for it would be alright, but yea, the devs need to start listening to the community about mech, the list of idea's of how to make mech viable is long and untested. It makes me wonder if any of the devs have even tried to play mech at a semi high level of play b4.
Stim gets you to 45 HP, this is a massive change for TvT. I don't think suggesting a corresponding +10HP buff for Marines will get you popularity votes ^^
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instead of doing these shitty balance "fixes" they should do something to get the mmr reseted faster for people who didnt play for a decade so they dont ve to put up with playing vs gm players while their skill didnt improve at all while not playing :x losing 100% of the time aint fun
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Stim gets you to 45 HP, this is a massive change for TvT. I don't think suggesting a corresponding +10HP buff for Marines will get you popularity votes ^^
Hmm, true, it would mean players would have to make the choice of A) do i stim forward and risk having my marines 1 shotted or B) do i not stim so my marines take 2 shots but then im fighting with no stim.
we cant buff the marine, simple as that, so im not sure how it would be balanced as to make mech viable means making it stronger and we do want to keep bio viable in TvT so it doesn't turn into a pure mech fest, Bio vs mech games are super fun to watch (do i even need to remind everyone of Taeja vs innovation game 2 from early on this year). I guess it would mean players cant just go mass marine to beat mech anymore, it would force bio to go to very heavy marauder compositions.
I guess it would still be fine as we need to stop terran from relying on the marine for every single god dam mu and give/force terran to utilise more etch options
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Wait wut. I was away for a bit, see this topic, they decided a 10% decrease in cycle time was too much of a boost for mech?
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On November 15 2013 18:07 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 17:41 Bagi wrote:
Its a shame we really never got a good grasp of what a 50 flat damage tank could do, Blizzard nerfed them to crap when everyone was still awful and playing on steppes of war.
It has always seemed like the most logical way to buff the tank to me, but we all know how Blizzard feels about pulling back changes that they've applied to the game. It would rip to shreds protoss and zerg players that think that they can engage tank lines head on. As it should be. Mech should be super powerful buth highly immobile. Right now mech is both pathetically weak (5 shots to kill a zealot and 2 to kill a measly zergling, really?) and immobile. Terran has basically been forced into the same playstyle for three years now and the only thing that makes it interesting to watch is the fact that it's highly active, very volatile and mines add a fun amount of randomness to it (a bit like reaver shots in BW: sometimes they kill entire worker lines but sometimes they end up being duds).
I don't think it would make much of a difference in TvZ actually, lings are already oneshot as long as you keep up upgrading and are not really used past the early game anyway. Tanks would be more effective against hydras, that is a pretty significant change but roach/hydra relies heavily on blinding clouds to work in the first place.
Against protoss it would be huge though, full damage against both zealots and archons which are incredible damage sponges right now. Mech TvP would probably become viable in an instant.
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United Kingdom12071 Posts
On November 15 2013 14:30 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 14:24 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 15 2013 12:22 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 12:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 15 2013 08:51 Qikz wrote:On November 15 2013 06:34 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 15 2013 06:33 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:On November 14 2013 16:55 Qwerty85 wrote:On November 14 2013 16:36 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:On November 14 2013 14:42 XXXSmOke wrote:
[quote]
What lol, I dont get guys like you, you randomly come into a thread where we are discussing all of these changes and the future of everything based on the changes. And you walk in and go Oh, you can 1/1/1 still.
You remind of the I like turtles kid.
Even if it really was still viable, do you think we just want to all-in every single game vs Toss? No Thanks, You remind me of a troll. 1/1/1 is a good build. If you want to play passive and neglect Terrans strength (the early game) go for it, chances are you won't get far though considering how powerful Toss's mid game and late game is. Did your client neglected to update the game? We are now in Hots with MSC, nexus canon, and also carry some changes from WoL (immortal buff, rax nerf, multiple bunker nerfs etc) How many 1/1/1s did you see on high level TvP recently? Siege doesn't require research anymore, 1/1/1 is still viable as long as you build bunkers. ENough with the talk of this BS either post a rep or stop saying this because its not TRUE AT ALL LOL The mothership core really doesn't do enough damage to a large amount of targets in a quick time to completely kill the 1/1/1. You don't even need to attack into their nexus, you just set up a contain. I thought the entire counter to the 1/1/1 was to FE, get a better econ, stall the push a little and then overrun them. Doing a contain off a 1-base All-in sounds like exactly what the Protoss wants you to do. Of course it is. Protoss are just saying stupid shit now. I trust TheDwf over other GM's not cause he's a Terran, but cause he provides actual game proof and not just pointless theorycraft. None of these Protoss trolls have even given any proof that this MU isn't skewed in a stupid way towards Protoss in the early game. Yeah Dwf generally posts sense, or even if it is something I may not entirely agree with it's at least backed up with builds, timings etc. Hell you don't even need to play the game at any competent level to post sense, if you're right you're right. Every man and his dog could have told you the Warhound was fucked, photon overcharge was another tool for insane blind greed, or mech will require a metric fuckton of work to make functional in TvP I honeslty don't see how Mech will ever work in TvP. It got buried in this thread, but Mass Void Rays and Phoenixes would counter Mech pretty well. If it goes long enough, Carriers. At least in theory... I've never tried it before or seen Sky Toss vs Terran Mech at a high level.
Mass Void rays are actually countered pretty well by mass ravens, infact the same can be said for all protoss air since it stacks up so much and it's so slow if you HSM as they come in for an engagement, they'll find it hard to get away.
This is coming from someone who had in game experience of mech from the WoL beta until I quite playing a few months back. Say "BUT FEEDBACK" all you like, but if you're waiting for them to engage into you, your tanks will kill the templar since that'll most likely be all they have on the ground or you can micro your tanks to do it so feedback isnt an issue.
If you can't get them to come into you and they sit there with tempests, you just use PDD since most of the time they'll go mass tempest. If it's not mass tempest then you can just outrepair the damage.
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Kas vs Hero yesterday was a nice exhibition of how game ending oracles can be. If im not mistaken he went gasless 1rax FE into 2 more rax. So he could have been in a much worse position lol
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On November 15 2013 18:07 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 17:41 Bagi wrote:
Its a shame we really never got a good grasp of what a 50 flat damage tank could do, Blizzard nerfed them to crap when everyone was still awful and playing on steppes of war.
It has always seemed like the most logical way to buff the tank to me, but we all know how Blizzard feels about pulling back changes that they've applied to the game. It would rip to shreds protoss and zerg players that think that they can engage tank lines head on. As it should be. Mech should be super powerful buth highly immobile. Right now mech is both pathetically weak (5 shots to kill a zealot and 2 to kill a measly zergling, really?) and immobile. Terran has basically been forced into the same playstyle for three years now and the only thing that makes it interesting to watch is the fact that it's highly active, very volatile and mines add a fun amount of randomness to it (a bit like reaver shots in BW: sometimes they kill entire worker lines but sometimes they end up being duds).
The real problem isn't actually tanks, but a lot more related to the support-unit. Even today the current hellion/hellbat is a lot weaker than Vultures were in BW as they only costed 75 minerals. Further, it becomes a lot more entertaining to play and watch mech when it is the harass-support unit that is "overpowered" and not the turtle-unit.
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On November 15 2013 18:35 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:Show nested quote +
Stim gets you to 45 HP, this is a massive change for TvT. I don't think suggesting a corresponding +10HP buff for Marines will get you popularity votes ^^
Hmm, true, it would mean players would have to make the choice of A) do i stim forward and risk having my marines 1 shotted or B) do i not stim so my marines take 2 shots but then im fighting with no stim. we cant buff the marine, simple as that, so im not sure how it would be balanced as to make mech viable means making it stronger and we do want to keep bio viable in TvT so it doesn't turn into a pure mech fest, Bio vs mech games are super fun to watch (do i even need to remind everyone of Taeja vs innovation game 2 from early on this year). I guess it would mean players cant just go mass marine to beat mech anymore, it would force bio to go to very heavy marauder compositions. I guess it would still be fine as we need to stop terran from relying on the marine for every single god dam mu and give/force terran to utilise more etch options
What I am trying to say; a flat out damage buff for Siege Tanks would eliminate Bio in mid-lategame TvT because it simply dies to fast. Playing without Stim is not an option.
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did you even read one of the points i made? Bio does not mean it has to be straight marines. Maruaders are a fine substitute and guess what, they are great against mech doing bonus damage against armoured and all. If you are going up against a mech player, he will have hellbat/tank instead of marine tank. Now building marines with the goal in mind for a head on fight against mech is suicide. Hallbats > Marines so the only purpose marines serve in this situation is for drops to kill worker lines. Marudaers can stim as well and have more health so they can soak up those tank shots. Maruaders are armoured so they have been taking the full damage from tanks the whole time. (im ignoring the meta of tech switching to air as thats another issue here). In marine/tank vs marine tank situations. The player who seiges up first will just have a much larger advantage which imo is ok, the fastest player deserves to come out on top.
So in the end BIO is still viable, The marine will just be a lot worse in this match up and for players to play bio, they will have to build something other than the marine for once.
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I haven´t watched anything from HSCVIII, yet. How is TvZ after the mine nerf, still same ol´ 4M and how is it faring?
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On November 15 2013 20:48 Daswollvieh wrote:
I haven´t watched anything from HSCVIII, yet. How is TvZ after the mine nerf, still same ol´ 4M and how is it faring?
Same 4M from what i have seen, no tanks.
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On November 15 2013 20:48 Daswollvieh wrote:
I haven´t watched anything from HSCVIII, yet. How is TvZ after the mine nerf, still same ol´ 4M and how is it faring?
There's nothing that gives a really solid view of the change. The closest thing to a non-smackdown game was Taeja vs Scarlett g1, where Scarlett starts floating very large amounts of minerals around 12:20, and loses her fourth to a solo drop during a big fight off creep. The map positions also made it difficult to defend her bases with spines.
http://www.twitch.tv/taketvbstream/b/479661240?t=1h45m27s
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On November 15 2013 18:07 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 17:41 Bagi wrote:
Its a shame we really never got a good grasp of what a 50 flat damage tank could do, Blizzard nerfed them to crap when everyone was still awful and playing on steppes of war.
It has always seemed like the most logical way to buff the tank to me, but we all know how Blizzard feels about pulling back changes that they've applied to the game. It would rip to shreds protoss and zerg players that think that they can engage tank lines head on. As it should be. Mech should be super powerful buth highly immobile. Right now mech is both pathetically weak (5 shots to kill a zealot and 2 to kill a measly zergling, really?) and immobile. Terran has basically been forced into the same playstyle for three years now and the only thing that makes it interesting to watch is the fact that it's highly active, very volatile and mines add a fun amount of randomness to it (a bit like reaver shots in BW: sometimes they kill entire worker lines but sometimes they end up being duds).
David Kim is afraid to buff tanks and end up killing marine tank vs marine tank on TvT. Fuck this, if we want tanks to be decent, IT SHOULD be a hardcounter to marines, let TvT change into mech wars and in exchange, we can use tanks in TvZ and TvP.
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On November 15 2013 15:41 HolyArrow wrote:
Ehh... I still remember how riled up he was about the WP speed changes, and how he was making it sound like it would pretty much break PvT (with lots of theorycrafting).
This isn't to say that his criticisms of the oracle changes aren't valid, but just that that previous instance hurt his credibility a lot in my eyes.
"Lots of theorycrafting" ... I said Protoss had no right about this change because 1. they were not struggling at all and thus needed no buff, 2. it made no sense in the logic of the match-up.
Some people argued that, on the contrary, such buffs to Protoss harassement are good because it breaks the "turtle until unstoppable army" syndrom. To that I said: no, harassment will also be used as a support for deathball play, to build it in a more comfortable way, to reach it in a more advantageous position.
Proof? Watch for instance Last vs CranK, Fruitland, GSTL from yesterday. No Prism there from memory, but CranK harassed the third the whole game with Zealots raids. What happened? Last had no initiative and was forced to defend while being slowly crippled. Meanwhile, CranK was building his unbeatable Colossus/Storm/Tempest army. No need to tell you what happened afterwards. Dear vs Maru, Frost, Season 3 Finals? Same pattern. Dear does harass with Zealots raids, Storm drops, etc. Meanwhile, he builds his Colossus/Storm army and naturally steamrolls Maru as soon as he's ready. First vs FanTaSy, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S? Same thing. Prism attacks buy time and cripple Terran, Protoss reinforces/completes the deathball, Protoss stomps Terran. Every single top Templar player (e. g. PartinG, sOs, Trap, etc.) uses Prism precisely because of that: it's such a powerful tool to disturb Terran in his play (because of the massive difference in attention/multitask required to execute and defend Zealots raids) while Protoss keeps developing towards his dream army.
If my credibility went to ashes in your eyes, maybe you will trust the blue posters of your own race?
+ Show Spoiler +On August 19 2013 08:36 TL Strategy wrote:
Colossus builds have been quite prevalent throughout HotS. Despite this, players like Trap, Parting, Flying and sOs have been going for templar first play with great success. The HotS changes impacted this playstyle greatly thanks to the added defensive capabilities of the mothership core, the power of faster warp prisms, and a cheaper dark shrine.
(...)
The main advantage of not rushing colossus tech is that robotics build time is freed up, allowing for an investment in a fast observer network and warp prisms. These two tools are extremely valuable in defending a well timed third base, harassing, and keeping map control. The ability to stress an opponent’s multitasking and force mistakes is very powerful and it’s very rewarding to beat an opponent while forcing and punishing mistake after mistake: gateway-heavy styles suit this kind of play much better than colossi.
(...)
Assuming you are playing against a medivac timing, rally the warp prism across the map. Warp in four zealots with it and drop them in his main slightly after seeing him move out, when his army is about one third of the way across the map. This move is essential, as it buys time for your storm and +2 armor to complete and for the extra gates to kick in.
(...)
At this point it’s vital to buy as much time as possible for your econ and second tech to kick in: remain active with your harassment. It's important to replace the warp prism if you lost it earlier on.
(...)
That said, the warp prisms really help with keeping the Terran back, so it’s possible to push across the map once storm and a key upgrade (like +2 or +3 armor) is done, especially if you are ahead after defending a timing or harassing him.
Ups. Looks exactly like what I was saying.
Just think about it: does it make any sense that a race which is unbreakable by early game and has a much superior last game can also gain ground in the midgame?
So yes. As long as TvP is Protoss-favored, as long as Protoss has the deathball, I will be against buffs to Protoss harass, especially buffs purposefully designed so you cannot catch anymore said harassment tools (like the Viking unable to chase a Prism, and now the Oracle uncatchable by pretty much anything) while they are made more forgiving for Protoss.
On November 15 2013 18:11 Big J wrote:
yes. But you can say that for other playstyles as well, and man got we a lot of whining when Terrans couldn't just stim into Broodlord/Infestor anymore. And man did we get a lot of "oh, HotS is so awesome" when they finally could do it again.
This is how you summarize Terran problems against Zerg at the end of WoL? Oh no, 1at doesn't work anymore, game is broken? Please.
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On November 15 2013 21:33 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:41 HolyArrow wrote:
Ehh... I still remember how riled up he was about the WP speed changes, and how he was making it sound like it would pretty much break PvT (with lots of theorycrafting).
This isn't to say that his criticisms of the oracle changes aren't valid, but just that that previous instance hurt his credibility a lot in my eyes. "Lots of theorycrafting" ... I said Protoss had no right about this change because 1. they were not struggling at all and thus needed no buff, 2. it made no sense in the logic of the match-up. Some people argued that, on the contrary, such buffs to Protoss harassement are good because it breaks the "turtle until unstoppable army" syndrom. To that I said: no, harassment will also be used as a support for deathball play, to build it in a more comfortable way, to reach it in a more advantageous position. Proof? Watch for instance Last vs CranK, Fruitland, GSTL from yesterday. No Prism there from memory, but CranK harassed the third the whole game with Zealots raids. What happened? Last had no initiative and was forced to defend while being slowly crippled. Meanwhile, CranK was building his unbeatable Colossus/Storm/Tempest army. No need to tell you what happened afterwards. Dear vs Maru, Frost, Season 3 Finals? Same pattern. Dear does harass with Zealots raids, Storm drops, etc. Meanwhile, he builds his Colossus/Storm army and naturally steamrolls Maru as soon as he's ready. First vs FanTaSy, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S? Same thing. Prism attacks buy time and cripple Terran, Protoss reinforces/completes the deathball, Protoss stomps Terran. Every single top Templar player (e. g. PartinG, sOs, Trap, etc.) uses Prism precisely because of that: it's such a powerful tool to disturb Terran in his play (because of the massive difference in attention/multitask required to execute and defend Zealots raids) while Protoss keeps developing towards his dream army. If my credibility went to ashes in your eyes, maybe you will trust the blue posters of your own race? + Show Spoiler +On August 19 2013 08:36 TL Strategy wrote:
Colossus builds have been quite prevalent throughout HotS. Despite this, players like Trap, Parting, Flying and sOs have been going for templar first play with great success. The HotS changes impacted this playstyle greatly thanks to the added defensive capabilities of the mothership core, the power of faster warp prisms, and a cheaper dark shrine.
(...)
The main advantage of not rushing colossus tech is that robotics build time is freed up, allowing for an investment in a fast observer network and warp prisms. These two tools are extremely valuable in defending a well timed third base, harassing, and keeping map control. The ability to stress an opponent’s multitasking and force mistakes is very powerful and it’s very rewarding to beat an opponent while forcing and punishing mistake after mistake: gateway-heavy styles suit this kind of play much better than colossi.
(...)
Assuming you are playing against a medivac timing, rally the warp prism across the map. Warp in four zealots with it and drop them in his main slightly after seeing him move out, when his army is about one third of the way across the map. This move is essential, as it buys time for your storm and +2 armor to complete and for the extra gates to kick in.
(...)
At this point it’s vital to buy as much time as possible for your econ and second tech to kick in: remain active with your harassment. It's important to replace the warp prism if you lost it earlier on.
(...)
That said, the warp prisms really help with keeping the Terran back, so it’s possible to push across the map once storm and a key upgrade (like +2 or +3 armor) is done, especially if you are ahead after defending a timing or harassing him. Ups. Looks exactly like what I was saying. Just think about it: does it make any sense that a race which is unbreakable by early game and has a much superior last game can also gain ground in the midgame? So yes. As long as TvP is Protoss-favored, as long as Protoss has the deathball, I will be against buffs to Protoss harass, especially buffs purposefully designed so you cannot catch anymore said harassment tools (like the Viking unable to chase a Prism, and now the Oracle uncatchable by pretty much anything) while they are made more forgiving for Protoss. Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:11 Big J wrote:
yes. But you can say that for other playstyles as well, and man got we a lot of whining when Terrans couldn't just stim into Broodlord/Infestor anymore. And man did we get a lot of "oh, HotS is so awesome" when they finally could do it again. This is how you summarize Terran problems against Zerg at the end of WoL? Oh no, 1at doesn't work anymore, game is broken? Please.
Your analyze on PVT and the way P use the warprism is pretty exact and I couldn't say better.
DK thinks in buffing toss they would play more agressive and wont wait death ball.
Absolutely wrong.
All the buff the gave to protoss let them do hard allins or end games harassement.
Terran needs to micro his drops and has to micro in 3 different places in same time, protoss just warp zealots and use the fact terrans has to take care of his base to attack storm and kill the main terran army.
That s ridiculous.
Oracle buff, warp prism buff and even the DT buff... Dt buff was like to easy the late game... The lower cost of the dark shrine just let protoss do hard allins.
regarding the tanks they suck too much and you cannot reinforce your army as we did with widow mines and bio.
And the buff is too ridiculous to become tanks viable.
Anyway progammers prefer to use one or two thors cause widow mines are usefull against glings banelings AND mutas, tanks not.
And anyway Vipers are the real pb of a return of the mech play in TvZ
I am not talking about mech in TVP....... Never been effective
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