HotS Balance Update - November 11 - Page 78

On November 15 2013 22:47 Plansix wrote:

He subscribes to the Idra mindset of SC2, which damages your play more that any imbalance ever will.

On November 15 2013 22:38 Qwerty85 wrote:


So we should just accept your opinion that oracles are not better than banshees as a fact just because you say so?
Demuslim can be whiny sometimes but if you watch his stream regularly, he has very good analytical approach..


Sure banshees are better in some ways, they have more range and they can cloack. But also there are drawbacks. They come full 2 minutes later than oracle, can't directly engage the marines (can kite them but not straight up engage which gives terran more time to get the viking or turret out) and they are much slower and harder to micro than oracle which makes it easier to kill them.

Oracles come faster than banshees, they are good both against workers and terran earliest anti air units (marines), they have superior speed and acceleration and dps (while they have the energy) etc.

So I don't see how you can dismiss that oracles are better than banshees without giving your arguments on the matter instead of just saying that it doesn't make sense.

Also, we must not forget that pro players use what works not what is best on paper. Even some pros like sos and parting said they are very very good and we see them all the time in protoss matchups. We don't see banshee play nearly as much as oracle play.

Edit: and nobody sane is suggesting there is some conspiracy against terran, we just question the competence of the balance team since their reasoning behind the changes doesn't often correspond to the actual changes they make.

If you want to make an early game unit like oracle better in the late game (which is a problem according to Blizz, not the oracle in the early game), why not give it a researchable speed upgrade at a building that can be constructed in late game scenarios. Instead, they make it better without any upgrade, thus making it even better in the early game..

Is there no flaw in their logic?

On November 15 2013 22:49 TheDwf wrote:

Yet another random assumption based on nothing.

On November 15 2013 22:26 marvellosity wrote:
TheDwf sure does bitch a lot, doesn't he?

On November 15 2013 22:49 TheDwf wrote:

Yet another random assumption based on nothing.

On November 15 2013 22:49 TheDwf wrote:

Yet another random assumption based on nothing.

On November 15 2013 22:15 Big J wrote:
Nope. Like basically anytime you answer me it is again a strawman.



Never said that this was a summary of "the Terran problems at the end of WoL".
But it's a fact that in the early stages of BL/Infestor said composition very often got beaten by stimming under it (of course with viking support, don't even begin to make a list of things I may not be arguing since this is somewhat of a short comment) and same thing works pretty well this far in HotS as well (though mines and drops of course are the enabling powers behind it).
Especially since you considered WoL to be totally balanced in these early BL/Infestor stages middle-end of 2011, even after the ghostnerf (since you said so a thousand times that it was the "queen patch" that broke the matchup and it was balanced before), you should know what I'm talking about.


Don't even get what you want to tell me with that. Do you want to make a sarcastic strawmen in which I say something like "Terrans were whining because they couldn't 1a anymore and therefore said the game was broken"
Or do you imply that I'm saying that Broodlord/Infestor was 1a and now you want to show me as someone who claims that the game is broken because it doesn't work anymore?
In anycase, it is a strawmen. Since in the first case I didn't say that Terrans were 1a-ing and in the second case you won't find a comment from me saying that HotS is/was broken.

On November 15 2013 22:58 Tiaraju9 wrote:


You missed the point. You can't isolate two units and then to compare them. That's the logical flaw. Makes zero sense.

On November 15 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote:

It's a quote from Jaedong, who told EGxenocider that thinking the game is unfair and imbalanced does more damage to your play than any real imbalance. Do you not trust Jaedongs advice?

On November 15 2013 23:15 TheDwf wrote:

And your statement according to which "[I] subscribe to the Idra mindset of SC2" (whatever that means) is also a Jaedong's quote?

I see no contradiction between thinking the game is unfair on such or such point, and still looking objectively at your play to see the flaws/mistakes in it. You seem to be labouring under the delusion that because I discuss some aspects of the match-up I deem unfair, I think my play is perfect. That is not the case at all.

On November 15 2013 23:19 Big J wrote:
And I'm pretty sure we had that discussion about WoL balance/Queen patch before. When I said (something like) "Broodlord/Infestor was going to develop anyways and be broken" and you then responded with (something like) "You're downplaying the results of the queen patch; X, Y, Z got out of control and Terran strategies A,B,C didn't work anymore and therefore, Terrans couldn't deal with Zerg reliably anymore."

- if I'm wrong and you didn't say that Zerg got out of control because of the queen patch, I appologize.

On November 15 2013 23:15 TheDwf wrote:

And your statement according to which "[I] subscribe to the Idra mindset of SC2" (whatever that means) is also a Jaedong's quote?

I see no contradiction between thinking the game is unfair on such or such point, and still looking objectively at your play to see the flaws/mistakes in it. You seem to be labouring under the delusion that because I discuss some aspects of the match-up I deem unfair, I think my play is perfect. That is not the case at all.

On November 15 2013 23:34 Plansix wrote:

I can only comment on what I know from your posts on TL and make inferances based on that. EGxenocider said on inside the game that he had similar issues with thinking that portions of the game where imbalanced and unfair, and when he talked with Jaedong about it, he that seriously hurt his play.

Or to put it another way, of the top 100 golfers in the world, their scores only differ by about .2%. At some point practice and skill hit their limit and mindset becomes what wins and loses games. Since you are in GM, you might have hit that point and what is really holding you back is your focus on imbalance and the idea that the game is unfair.

On November 15 2013 23:26 TheDwf wrote:

Yes, we had a discussion about the Queen patch and the development of broods/infests, but I did not say whether or not I considered TvZ balanced before said patch.

On November 15 2013 23:34 Plansix wrote:

I can only comment on what I know from your posts on TL and make inferances based on that. EGxenocider said on inside the game that he had similar issues with thinking that portions of the game where imbalanced and unfair, and when he talked with Jaedong about it, he that seriously hurt his play.

Or to put it another way, of the top 100 golfers in the world, their scores only differ by about .2%. At some point practice and skill hit their limit and mindset becomes what wins and loses games. Since you are in GM, you might have hit that point and what is really holding you back is your focus on imbalance and the idea that the game is unfair.

On November 15 2013 23:37 TheDwf wrote:

But what exactly makes you think that something is holding me back?