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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:49 TheDwf wrote: Yet another random assumption based on nothing. It's a quote from Jaedong, who told EGxenocider that thinking the game is unfair and imbalanced does more damage to your play than any real imbalance. Do you not trust Jaedongs advice? | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:58 Tiaraju9 wrote: You missed the point. You can't isolate two units and then to compare them. That's the logical flaw. Makes zero sense. Can you explain the logical flaw in comparing two units that are designed mainly for harassment? Especially if he compared them in terms of harassment potential (which they are designed to do). What is illogical about it? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27199 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote: It's a quote from Jaedong, who told EGxenocider that thinking the game is unfair and imbalanced does more damage to your play than any real imbalance. Do you not trust Jaedongs advice? Depends what your goals are. If nobody complains about the broken things in the game, will they ever be changed? Yeah as you like to say the 'Idra mentality' harmed his play, but equally he's so often right. At the other end of the positivity spectrum we have Day9 who barely ever criticises core issues with the game and would focus on other interesting aspects of the game. They're both valid enough. If you want to play the game that YOU find fun, or fair complain all you want if your criteria aren't being met. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:47 Plansix wrote: He subscribes to the Idra mindset of SC2, which damages your play more that any imbalance ever will. Except unlike Idra he doesn't curse and actually uses good arguments to explain his reasoning... | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote: It's a quote from Jaedong, who told EGxenocider that thinking the game is unfair and imbalanced does more damage to your play than any real imbalance. Do you not trust Jaedongs advice? And your statement according to which "[I] subscribe to the Idra mindset of SC2" (whatever that means) is also a Jaedong's quote? I see no contradiction between thinking the game is unfair on such or such point, and still looking objectively at your play to see the flaws/mistakes in it. You seem to be labouring under the delusion that because I discuss some aspects of the match-up I deem unfair, I think my play is perfect. That is not the case at all. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote: It's a quote from Jaedong, who told EGxenocider that thinking the game is unfair and imbalanced does more damage to your play than any real imbalance. Do you not trust Jaedongs advice? I agree the thought of imbalance is more destructive than the imbalance itself. "The only thing to fear is FEAR ITSELF" Yet it doesn't take a Genius to see the insane difference in the options as well as the Gameplay now in TvP. As a Terran player I just want even a bone on a string at this point to keep me going because after the past couple days its getting demoralizing when Noob Mid masters can Proxy oracle and micro for good kills and 3 Gate all in FOllow up can make your life a living hell..... Yea I have to get better at defending this but its just annoying that People with considerable lower skill in any other circumstance would not be able to hold a candle to you LOL | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 15 2013 22:45 TheDwf wrote: Is “strawman” the new word you learnt this week? Terrans were complaining at the end of the WoL not because "they couldn't just stim into broods/infests anymore," but because nothing reliably worked against a competent opponent, from this method to Vikings/Ravens transitions, Nukes, multi-pronged drops or whatever. You're putting words in my mouth regarding the balance of WoL TvZ, which is quite ironic when you claim I use nothing but strawman (do I get points for using the word?); I even remember one of my first posts regarding patchs was to explain how the Snipe nerf would leave Terran too vulnerable to tier3 Zerg tech switches because Terran's infrastructure didn't have the flexibility of Zerg's production. from my comment before: of course with viking support, don't even begin to make a list of things I may not be arguing since this is somewhat of a short comment ... ... ... ... ... get it? And I'm pretty sure we had that discussion about WoL balance/Queen patch before. When I said (something like) "Broodlord/Infestor was going to develop anyways and be broken" and you then responded with (something like) "You're downplaying the results of the queen patch; X, Y, Z got out of control and Terran strategies A,B,C didn't work anymore and therefore, Terrans couldn't deal with Zerg reliably anymore." - if I'm wrong and you didn't say that Zerg got out of control because of the queen patch, I appologize. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:19 Big J wrote: And I'm pretty sure we had that discussion about WoL balance/Queen patch before. When I said (something like) "Broodlord/Infestor was going to develop anyways and be broken" and you then responded with (something like) "You're downplaying the results of the queen patch; X, Y, Z got out of control and Terran strategies A,B,C didn't work anymore and therefore, Terrans couldn't deal with Zerg reliably anymore." - if I'm wrong and you didn't say that Zerg got out of control because of the queen patch, I appologize. Yes, we had a discussion about the Queen patch and the development of broods/infests, but I did not say whether or not I considered TvZ balanced before said patch. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:04 Qwerty85 wrote: Can you explain the logical flaw in comparing two units that are designed mainly for harassment? Especially if he compared them in terms of harassment potential (which they are designed to do). What is illogical about it? It might be illogical to compare, say, ghosts to templar in a vacuum but I think it's safe to compare two units who have similar roles (early game harassment in this case) when one unit is seeing a lot of play recently and the other sees almost none. Which doesn't necessarily mean the matchup is imbalanced mind you. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:15 TheDwf wrote: And your statement according to which "[I] subscribe to the Idra mindset of SC2" (whatever that means) is also a Jaedong's quote? I see no contradiction between thinking the game is unfair on such or such point, and still looking objectively at your play to see the flaws/mistakes in it. You seem to be labouring under the delusion that because I discuss some aspects of the match-up I deem unfair, I think my play is perfect. That is not the case at all. I can only comment on what I know from your posts on TL and make inferances based on that. EGxenocider said on inside the game that he had similar issues with thinking that portions of the game where imbalanced and unfair, and when he talked with Jaedong about it, he that seriously hurt his play. Or to put it another way, of the top 100 golfers in the world, their scores only differ by about .2%. At some point practice and skill hit their limit and mindset becomes what wins and loses games. Since you are in GM, you might have hit that point and what is really holding you back is your focus on imbalance and the idea that the game is unfair. | ||
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RaZorwire
Sweden718 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:15 TheDwf wrote: I see no contradiction between thinking the game is unfair on such or such point, and still looking objectively at your play to see the flaws/mistakes in it. You seem to be labouring under the delusion that because I discuss some aspects of the match-up I deem unfair, I think my play is perfect. That is not the case at all. Really wish more people would keep this in mind. Complaining about balance CAN be detrimental to your play, but trying to improve and find solutions on how to overcome problems with your play and at the same time having opinions on balance are not mutually exclusive. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:34 Plansix wrote: I can only comment on what I know from your posts on TL and make inferances based on that. EGxenocider said on inside the game that he had similar issues with thinking that portions of the game where imbalanced and unfair, and when he talked with Jaedong about it, he that seriously hurt his play. Or to put it another way, of the top 100 golfers in the world, their scores only differ by about .2%. At some point practice and skill hit their limit and mindset becomes what wins and loses games. Since you are in GM, you might have hit that point and what is really holding you back is your focus on imbalance and the idea that the game is unfair. But what exactly makes you think that something is holding me back? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:26 TheDwf wrote: Yes, we had a discussion about the Queen patch and the development of broods/infests, but I did not say whether or not I considered TvZ balanced before said patch. If it wasn't somewhat balanced, the patch could not have broken it. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:34 Plansix wrote: I can only comment on what I know from your posts on TL and make inferances based on that. EGxenocider said on inside the game that he had similar issues with thinking that portions of the game where imbalanced and unfair, and when he talked with Jaedong about it, he that seriously hurt his play. Or to put it another way, of the top 100 golfers in the world, their scores only differ by about .2%. At some point practice and skill hit their limit and mindset becomes what wins and loses games. Since you are in GM, you might have hit that point and what is really holding you back is your focus on imbalance and the idea that the game is unfair. LOL he went from being your Posting Enemy to making an attempt to be your coach hahahaha Yea mindset has a HUGE effect on your gameplay there is no doubt about that. This is a discussion on how the new change had no legitimate reason behind it and actually aggravated the issues at hand and offered no real recompense in return..... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:37 TheDwf wrote: But what exactly makes you think that something is holding me back? The amount of time you spend complaining about balance. I can't know for sure, but it seems to be the focus of the vast majority of your posts in any given thread. I can can only assume that it has a similar level of focus in the way you play and think about the game. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:40 Big J wrote: If it wasn't somewhat balanced, the patch could not have broken it. Things are more complicated. You can go from "who knows" to "one side clearly has the advantage now," just like you can go from "one side has the advantage" to "this side has even more advantage now". A match-up can appear balanced at a time, but contain potential imbalances when further developments occur. Inversely, it can appear broken at the beginning, then even out. | ||
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Fowowski
Poland6 Posts
Basing on this: http://sc2planner.com/?v=hots#PaaaoCafaafaoDaoBaoBaiHaiHoCoFaoCaaoIaaffiY When I scout after first rax and see 2x gas full saturation, no MSC - how can I know that this is a proxy Oracle not 4 gate blink all-in stalker with delayed MSC? Would it be wise to delay my Orbital Command to get 1 extra rax earlier and then make OC during 2nd rax? | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:46 Fowowski wrote: TvP Basing on this: http://sc2planner.com/?v=hots#PaaaoCafaafaoDaoBaoBaiHaiHoCoFaoCaaoIaaffiY When I scout after first rax and see 2x gas full saturation, no MSC - how can I know that this is a proxy Oracle not 4 gate blink all-in stalker with delayed MSC? Would it be wise to delay my Orbital Command to get 1 extra rax earlier and then make OC during 2nd rax? Please post this in the Terran HOTS Help me Thread  | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:40 Pirfiktshon wrote: LOL he went from being your Posting Enemy to making an attempt to be your coach hahahaha Yea mindset has a HUGE effect on your gameplay there is no doubt about that. This is a discussion on how the new change had no legitimate reason behind it and actually aggravated the issues at hand and offered no real recompense in return..... Hey, I will be the first to admit that Dwf is way better at SC2 than I will ever be. I may make snarky comments about people whining about balance because I find it funny, but I do respect peoples skill at the game. I just think he spends a lot of time focused on imbalance. And focusing on something a lot can put you in a bad mindset, regardless if the discussion is balanced or not. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:42 Plansix wrote: The amount of time you spend complaining about balance. I can't know for sure, but it seems to be the focus of the vast majority of your posts in any given thread. I can can only assume that it has a similar level of focus in the way you play and think about the game. That's like saying LaLuSh opened this thread because he sucks at Banshee micro. You assume too much. You don't know me, you don't know if I'm improving at the game or not, you don't even know my commitment to SC2, so you cannot claim that I discuss all those things because I have hit a plateau or something. You make those assumptions because the way I think contrasts with your philosophy of relativism and "positivism" at all costs, and for you someone who criticizes things like that is necessarily someone sour in some way. But I'm sorry, reality is more than black and white. | ||
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