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On November 16 2013 01:03 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote:
im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment He plays it the wrong way thoough. If there is any way mech is going to be semiviable its going to consist of banshee/raven play. Either in form of turtle or a harass-oriented style.
On what grounds are you claiming he's playing it wrong? Because he lost? That's not evidence of failure of execution on Innovation's part. I can guarantee that if you had Avilo, lord and savior of 2 hour games playing those P players (one was Stats, iirc), he would get absolutely fucking mauled as well, banshee/raven or not.
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On November 16 2013 01:06 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 01:04 ETisME wrote:
you have to take in consideration that while bio play has been developed for Years, Mech in TvP has not been developed at all.
It's not surprising to see it not work now since there isn't a standard way to play mech in TvP.
Mech in TvZ was pretty horrible and abandoned until Mvp comes in and gives us a nice opening. Dude, there are players who play mech exclusively in all matchups... Even when you win it is a long, boring and painful experience... and we are talking about winning on NA ladder, not really the highest level of play.
Then I don't see what do you mean.
last time I checked, HTOMario is playing mech in Korea GM and what does that make him?
A better player than innovation? OR a better mech player?
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On November 16 2013 01:02 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote:
im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment Yes, he was actually playing solid, even getting ghosts, but all it takes is 1 blink in the main between the production to lose... And once you are on 4 bases it is so hard to cover ground with mech so it is bound to happen. Mech can only work in a super slow mega turtle way... no activity on the map is allowed because your units will never be back in time to stop those blink stalkers to destroy your production.
To be fair, that was like the worst map ever for mech. I mean I don't think the end result would've been different on another map, but he probably wouldn't have gotten stomped quite that hard, it was painful to watch
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On November 16 2013 01:08 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 01:03 Hider wrote:On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote:
im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment He plays it the wrong way thoough. If there is any way mech is going to be semiviable its going to consist of banshee/raven play. Either in form of turtle or a harass-oriented style. This is what Blizzard refuses to understand, nr20 into "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Banshees/Ravens" (lol) is ridiculous and cannot seriously be called "mech" when you end up with such a bizarre army with more specialized spellcasters and unidimensional "counters to counters" than mech in it. Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 01:06 Qwerty85 wrote:
Dude, there are players who play mech exclusively in all matchups... Even when you win it is a long, boring and painful experience... and we are talking about winning on NA ladder, not really the highest level of play. No mech discussion is ever complete without the "but mech is unexplored" card.
Yeh its a terrible composition if you need to mix in way too many spellcaster units --> Creates lame deathall game. I think though banshee + mech can provide okay'ish entertaining games, but yeh its never gonna be "truly viable" though.
I think the best solution simply comes down to reducing the cost of Hellions/hellbats to 75 mins while marginally reducing the HP and damage vs light. This will make them a lot better vs Immortal/stalker/Collosus etc., and it will actually make terran harass a lot more viable, which creats more actionpacked mech games than turte-mech games.
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On November 16 2013 01:04 ETisME wrote:
you have to take in consideration that while bio play has been developed for Years, Mech in TvP has not been developed at all.
It's not surprising to see it not work now since there isn't a standard way to play mech in TvP.
Mech in TvZ was pretty horrible and abandoned until Mvp comes in and gives us a nice opening.
Actually, a tons of "all mech players" that were doing decently at their respective lvl in WoL are slowly shifting away from mech. It's just insane to see how is became way worse in HotS.
I'm personally disgusted to see how, with basically 3 years and thousands of mech games, one of the few "solid" mech style in WoL, i can get demolished without a single chance to fight by a protoss who don't even need to know i'm going for mech. There is just too much stuff you have to care about that can outright kill you if you mess a little thing, and unlike WoL, you can't exploit some things or balance some aspects of the game to get a relatively safe early, an equal midgame, and a balanced / stronger lategame : with mech, atm, regardless of your experience and opponent's vs mech, you just play from behind from the start to the end, in every way
Even turtling became way worse, since the protoss can turtle harder than you with MsC, has some pressure options that are WAY harder to deal with even with defensive play, and a way stronger lategame
I do still play mech because oh god i hate so much bio but seriously.. it's just depressing and i feel i basically wasted years of my "game life" to design a strategy that can get killed by a protoss just by not being totally idiot
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On November 16 2013 01:10 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 01:03 Hider wrote:On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote:
im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment He plays it the wrong way thoough. If there is any way mech is going to be semiviable its going to consist of banshee/raven play. Either in form of turtle or a harass-oriented style. On what grounds are you claiming he's playing it wrong? Because he lost? That's not evidence of failure of execution on Innovation's part. I can guarantee that if you had Avilo, lord and savior of 2 hour games playing those P players (one was Stats, iirc), he would get absolutely fucking mauled as well, banshee/raven or not.
Because he moved out to aggressively. There is no reason at all to do that. The way mech is designed in Sc2 --> Its always about turtling, sacking scvs --> replacing mules --> Getting ravens (most supply efficient unit).
Further, I believe you cannot let the protoss player freely expand --> Gives him too strong econ. So some type of early midgame harass play must be incorporated (because your army simply isn't strong enough to fight that cost efficeintly in the midgame). When you get ghosts (instead of banshees) in the midgame, you make it possible for the protoss to freely expand. I believe banshee's are a superior choice as they give you map presense.
There is litteraly no incentive for a terran player to attack with mech - I expect Innovation tries it anyway as turtling is super lame and boring.
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On November 16 2013 01:04 ETisME wrote:
you have to take in consideration that while bio play has been developed for Years, Mech in TvP has not been developed at all.
It's not surprising to see it not work now since there isn't a standard way to play mech in TvP.
Mech in TvZ was pretty horrible and abandoned until Mvp comes in and gives us a nice opening.
and why do you think that is ?
mabye because terrans simply cant get it to work, becasue it is in fact SHIT ?
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At least Korean Ts are experimenting with it rather than laughing at even mentioning it.
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Northern Ireland23772 Posts
The only mech style I ever really thought was cool was the one Lucifron showed vs Stephano at WCS EU. Quite a whole ago mind, but Banshee hitssquads to snipe infestors and various other cool things in that series.
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On November 16 2013 01:13 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 01:10 Fission wrote:On November 16 2013 01:03 Hider wrote:On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote:
im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment He plays it the wrong way thoough. If there is any way mech is going to be semiviable its going to consist of banshee/raven play. Either in form of turtle or a harass-oriented style. On what grounds are you claiming he's playing it wrong? Because he lost? That's not evidence of failure of execution on Innovation's part. I can guarantee that if you had Avilo, lord and savior of 2 hour games playing those P players (one was Stats, iirc), he would get absolutely fucking mauled as well, banshee/raven or not. Because he moved out to aggressively. There is no reason at all to do that. The way mech is designed in Sc2 --> Its always about turtling, sacking scvs --> replacing mules --> Getting ravens (most supply efficient unit). There is litteraly no incentive for a terran player to attack with mech - I expect Innovation tries it anyway as turtling is super lame and boring.
Why do you believe you know better than Innovation? What are your accomplishments compared to his? Can you play mech and win against Stats?
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The problem with mech TvP is:
1. Toss has complete map control with observers and mobility
2. Toss can defend every single position by zoning with blink stalkers, placing a couple immortals around, and mama core
3. Immortals and zealots absolutely murder tanks
4. Tanks are actually pretty terrible at zoning in TvP because they don't do much damage in small numbers, while a couple immortals/zealots/blink stalkers just wreck the defensive positions
5. Toss can build a ridiculous economy while Terran tries to defend 3-4 bases
6. As soon as Terran moves out, Toss blinks into the main and just wrecks the production of T
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On November 16 2013 01:13 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 01:10 Fission wrote:On November 16 2013 01:03 Hider wrote:On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote:
im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment He plays it the wrong way thoough. If there is any way mech is going to be semiviable its going to consist of banshee/raven play. Either in form of turtle or a harass-oriented style. On what grounds are you claiming he's playing it wrong? Because he lost? That's not evidence of failure of execution on Innovation's part. I can guarantee that if you had Avilo, lord and savior of 2 hour games playing those P players (one was Stats, iirc), he would get absolutely fucking mauled as well, banshee/raven or not. Because he moved out to aggressively. There is no reason at all to do that. The way mech is designed in Sc2 --> Its always about turtling, sacking scvs --> replacing mules --> Getting ravens (most supply efficient unit). There is litteraly no incentive for a terran player to attack with mech - I expect Innovation tries it anyway as turtling is super lame and boring.
but still even if you dont attack you also cant expand more than 3 bases or even 2 cause you wont be able to defend your main and expansions.
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On November 16 2013 01:15 Wombat_NI wrote:
The only mech style I ever really thought was cool was the one Lucifron showed vs Stephano at WCS EU. Quite a whole ago mind, but Banshee hitssquads to snipe infestors and various other cool things in that series.
happy's mech is pretty awesome too
and as a mvp fan, all his mech play is just amazing. he always has some clutch thor timing against muta
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On November 16 2013 01:15 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 01:13 Hider wrote:On November 16 2013 01:10 Fission wrote:On November 16 2013 01:03 Hider wrote:On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote:
im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment He plays it the wrong way thoough. If there is any way mech is going to be semiviable its going to consist of banshee/raven play. Either in form of turtle or a harass-oriented style. On what grounds are you claiming he's playing it wrong? Because he lost? That's not evidence of failure of execution on Innovation's part. I can guarantee that if you had Avilo, lord and savior of 2 hour games playing those P players (one was Stats, iirc), he would get absolutely fucking mauled as well, banshee/raven or not. Because he moved out to aggressively. There is no reason at all to do that. The way mech is designed in Sc2 --> Its always about turtling, sacking scvs --> replacing mules --> Getting ravens (most supply efficient unit). There is litteraly no incentive for a terran player to attack with mech - I expect Innovation tries it anyway as turtling is super lame and boring. Why do you believe you know better than Innovation? What are your accomplishments compared to his? Can you play mech and win against Stats?
Yeh I probably have more experience with mech vs protoss than Innovation does. Also if you watch the game it is clear that Innovation was just experimenting. Like ghosts in one game, not the other one. Making attacks with a poor risk/reward (exposing him self unnecsaarily to counterattacks).
Clearly, he doesn't have a great knowledge of mech vs protoss. Give him 50-100 more tvp mech games and he can put of a much better showing. (not that its truly viable though).
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On November 16 2013 01:16 Topin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 01:13 Hider wrote:On November 16 2013 01:10 Fission wrote:On November 16 2013 01:03 Hider wrote:On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote:
im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment He plays it the wrong way thoough. If there is any way mech is going to be semiviable its going to consist of banshee/raven play. Either in form of turtle or a harass-oriented style. On what grounds are you claiming he's playing it wrong? Because he lost? That's not evidence of failure of execution on Innovation's part. I can guarantee that if you had Avilo, lord and savior of 2 hour games playing those P players (one was Stats, iirc), he would get absolutely fucking mauled as well, banshee/raven or not. Because he moved out to aggressively. There is no reason at all to do that. The way mech is designed in Sc2 --> Its always about turtling, sacking scvs --> replacing mules --> Getting ravens (most supply efficient unit). There is litteraly no incentive for a terran player to attack with mech - I expect Innovation tries it anyway as turtling is super lame and boring. but still even if you dont attack you also cant expand more than 3 bases or even 2 cause you wont be able to defend your main and expansions.
Very map dependant. I believe you can if you do it right. But it definitely invovlves a solid build, lots of practice and sensor towers. And as I argued above, mech needs to put some type of pressure in the early game --> Forces protoss to invest in statci defense --> Makes it harder for protoss to get super fast econ. Terran simply can't get behind with mech in the midgame (this way you simply lose to multipronged attacks + army trading by protoss).
Obviously that is the cheesy/gimmicky part of playing mech, since its just a matter before protoss figures out how to minimize damage from harass units and learns to get ahead. But nevertheless, my point is that the mech we sawy today from Innovation had lots lots lots of room for improvement.
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Lets look at the facts.
1) Bio in BW is Mech in Sc2 - just not viable. - even the game everyone refers to as the state sc2 should be in - has the exact same problem
2) You dont NEED mech to work for the game to be good, even if it is a plus.
3) protoss is pidgeonholed exactly the same way as terran is - skytoss or even robotoss is non existant because of the marine.
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On November 16 2013 01:12 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 01:08 TheDwf wrote:On November 16 2013 01:03 Hider wrote:On November 16 2013 00:57 Topin wrote:
im watching Innovation go mech vs toss ... too soon to tell but it looks mech dont have a chance, toss is just to mobile (blink/prism). Stats hit to places at the same time and Inno cant defend both places without dieing T_T
need more time but it doesnt look well for the moment He plays it the wrong way thoough. If there is any way mech is going to be semiviable its going to consist of banshee/raven play. Either in form of turtle or a harass-oriented style. This is what Blizzard refuses to understand, nr20 into "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Banshees/Ravens" (lol) is ridiculous and cannot seriously be called "mech" when you end up with such a bizarre army with more specialized spellcasters and unidimensional "counters to counters" than mech in it. On November 16 2013 01:06 Qwerty85 wrote:
Dude, there are players who play mech exclusively in all matchups... Even when you win it is a long, boring and painful experience... and we are talking about winning on NA ladder, not really the highest level of play. No mech discussion is ever complete without the "but mech is unexplored" card. Yeh its a terrible composition if you need to mix in way too many spellcaster units --> Creates lame deathall game. I think though banshee + mech can provide okay'ish entertaining games, but yeh its never gonna be "truly viable" though. I think the best solution simply comes down to reducing the cost of Hellions/hellbats to 75 mins while marginally reducing the HP and damage vs light. This will make them a lot better vs Immortal/stalker/Collosus etc., and it will actually make terran harass a lot more viable, which creats more actionpacked mech games than turte-mech games.
The core problem of mech in TvP is that Tanks simply don't deal enough damage. This whole mournful assembly of units (Ghosts, Thors, Ravens, Banshees) has to be at the Tank's bedside because the unit is ill and weak. If mech is to be made viable in TvP, it needs to be viable with a simple trinity of units. It needs to be viable without Ghosts, without Ravens (at least during midgame); something straightforward like Hellions-Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings, for instance (e. g. the way it is in TvT).
On November 16 2013 01:25 weikor wrote:
Lets look at the facts.
1) Bio in BW is Mech in Sc2 - just not viable. - even the game everyone refers to as the state sc2 should be in - has the exact same problem
2) You dont NEED mech to work for the game to be good, even if it is a plus.
3) protoss is pidgeonholed exactly the same way as terran is - skytoss or even robotoss is non existant because of the marine.
1. SC2 is the successor. Why could it not aim at doing better than its predecessor, especially if mech isn't made viable to have variety for the sake of variety (having this goal is a huge mistake), but because it can be interesting to watch and play?
2. When only one composition is viable in match-up (e. g. bio in TvP, 4M in TvZ), people complain the game is "stale".
3. Neither the Robotics nor the Stargate tech trees were designed as autonomous, unlike the Factory tech. Never noticed how no one asks "sky Terran" to be viable? Mech is more than "fact units," it's a unique playstyle with distinctive features (e. g. read this).
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On November 16 2013 01:15 TimENT wrote:
The problem with mech TvP is:
1. Toss has complete map control with observers and mobility
2. Toss can defend every single position by zoning with blink stalkers, placing a couple immortals around, and mama core
3. Immortals and zealots absolutely murder tanks
4. Tanks are actually pretty terrible at zoning in TvP because they don't do much damage in small numbers, while a couple immortals/zealots/blink stalkers just wreck the defensive positions
5. Toss can build a ridiculous economy while Terran tries to defend 3-4 bases
6. As soon as Terran moves out, Toss blinks into the main and just wrecks the production of T
You forget the best part, you win a battle with much and then 3 secs later he's re warped in half his army and crushes the small glimpse of hope you had
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Toss can defend every single position by zoning with blink stalkers, placing a couple immortals around, and mama core
Yeh and don't forget warp tech. A strong protoss palyer shouldn't take direct damage from terran harass. Indirect damage such as forcing units to be in defensive positions --> allow terrans to take expands more easily + protoss should invest into static defense can is benefical for the terran player though, and something he should take advantage of.
Immortals and zealots absolutely murder tanks
Yeh in midgame you absolutely can't attack with mech. Evenutaly though a 170 army supply consisting of Hellbats/Ravens/Tanks can beat the protoss army quite consistently. To get there though, you need to turtle very heavily behind buildings.
Tanks are actually pretty terrible at zoning in TvP because they don't do much damage in small numbers, while a couple immortals/zealots/blink stalkers just wreck the defensive positions
Yes you can't have tanks out in the open.
Toss can build a ridiculous economy while Terran tries to defend 3-4 bases
Maybe, but I don't believe that mech vs protoss midgame is anywhere close to being figured out by anone yet. It simply is possible that terrans harass-threat is strong to limit the protoss economical advantage.
As soon as Terran moves out, Toss blinks into the main and just wrecks the production of T
Yeh T can't move out in the midgame/early lategame... Position your self with defensive planetaries etc, sensor towers, turret rings etc... You know a really lame style.
The core problem of mech in TvP is that Tanks simply don't deal enough damage. This whole mournful assembly of units (Ghosts, Thors, Ravens, Banshees) has to be at the Tank's bedside because the unit is ill and weak. If mech is to be made viable in TvP, it needs to be viable with a simple trinity of units. It needs to be viable without Ghosts, without Ravens (at least during midgame); something straightforward like Hellions-Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings, for instance (e. g. the way it is in TvT).
I think effective DPS (taking into account smartfire) from Siege Tanks in BW is similar to that of the Tank in Sc2. IMO the major difference for terran is simply that the Vulture is incredibly more powerfull than the Hellion/hellbat.
That ofc. doesn't mean that mech shouldn't receive further buffs;
- Tanks can't be further buffed a bit (its a bit more expensive than BW counterpart)
- Immortals hardened shield should be replaced with something else (its terrible design)
- Warpgate nerf/rdesign
- Change to Mass Blink Stalker
But if I had to point out one thing that made Mech viable in BW and not in Sc2, it would be the mobile support unit.
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On November 16 2013 00:37 Wombat_NI wrote:
I come from a Protoss perspective, played since release and started dabbling with Terran for fun in WoL.
Now, in WoL I was a real PvT specialist, far and away my best matchup, TvP was my best T matchup as well, given my decent knowledge of P builds. Also used to be my favourite matchup to watch when top Koreans were involved when TvZ got silly.
Part of the issue ever since the photon overcharge came into the game, is that it is such a crutch it's ridiculous.
Look at builds like Creators old style double forge PvT in WoL. The unit numbers were so exacting, the timings mapped out to be solid. 4 sentries and no more for the optimal safety/greed trade off. Immortals timed to hold the 2 medivac push and then cut out entirely. Terrans occasionally pressured with marines to snipe sentries and to force the P into deciding to rebuild, or to continue greedily teching etc.
I don't see that kind of carefully calculated build schematic being necessary in HoTS PvT. There are still fantastic players executing things well, but the MsC is like a free pass to the periods of the game where Protoss is strong.
The only time Protoss were really struggling in the matchup was when they were taking thirds at WoL timings and having speedvacs pull them apart. When they figured out to turtle and tech harder on 2 bases before expanding their Eco even speedvacs struggle to properly damage at old timings (non-commitally)
In addition to their macro styles being safer, they still have the aggressive/cheesy options open to them. Worse still, a Terran can't circumvent and counter as effectively due to photon overcharge.
Sorry to come across as whiny, I'm a self-hating Protoss. As ever I feel the key to interesting strategy games is a risk-reward element into decisions. Decisions Blizzard seem to refuse to make Protoss players make.
Warpgate - Better than gateways in every way, why not get it? Hey we could create an interesting dynamic between the reinforcement potential of Warpgates and something like augmented production rates from gateways. Hey let's not though. Let's give Protoss no such trade off to make, and by DEFAULT enable them to have both faster macro cycles and reinforcement potential
 .. finally someone mentioning something about the possible mixture of warpgates and gateways .. as another dynamic for variety .. like how complicated zerg larvae worked in BW ... but you know you shouldn't get your hopes high .. blizzard serves the casuals so that wont happen ..
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EPT
