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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
It's to equalise Terran's merged upgraded and Toss having reduced upgrade costs.
The latter I've never really understood why it's still in the game, especially as all Toss ground shared ups.
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On November 18 2013 09:26 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's to equalise Terran's merged upgraded and Toss having reduced upgrade costs.
The latter I've never really understood why it's still in the game, especially as all Toss ground shared ups.
Well remember when it got put in. Toss was just getting destroyed constantly in everything by random terrans. Reductions help squeeze it in since toss is spending so much more unlocking other upgrades ie Charge, blink, storm, thermal lance. Ontop of just paying 50 gas per stalker.
We'll see if terran's merged upgrades makes sense or if it gives them too much flexibility with too much potency. What it really does is close the window in the later game toss has timings before terran adds the critical viking count/ hellbats into that comp.
On November 18 2013 07:38 Wombat_NI wrote:
Upgrade cost nerf, slower moving Collosus or a nerf to photon overcharge , probs the mana cost increased or the MsC having less peak mana
HTs already make that army hideously slow. Slower collosus and protoss will never retreat from late game fights. You kinda have to sack HTs as it is moving at 1.85.
I don't think Dear playing out of his mind automatically demands another nerf -.- seems like everytime protoss players start winning they have to be nerfed down. Only one that makes sense to me is a photon overcharge nerf because the idea was kinda crappy to start. Don't think they can remove it though with genius ideas like fre- boosted medivacs.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
It made sense because Toss had to invest in sentries or potentially get raped, so it freed up some gas. Especially as PvT pretty much necessitated the higher tech AoE units.
I don't see that as the case now.
PS those suggested nerfs were an either/or, not all at once. Even with quick Collosus Toss don't really get to retreat vs stimmed bio or most Zerg stuff without recalling anyway.
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I really have 0 idea why they buffed oracle. Almost every toss just goes proxy star gate in masters now. Make two pylons so a reaper or marines that early can't un-power star gate, then make one oracle which hits faster than widow mines (unless you rush fact with some crazy early double gas in which case if toss ever doesn't go oracle opening, you are fucked so I am going to ignore this option). It's a 100% guaranteed damage to eco and then you get to scout. If you scout that terran already has turrets/more than 6 marines, you know he went a non-eco/non-tech build so you just make mothership core and go into eco toss with one oracle constantly harassing. It also allows you to just go into templar cuz oracle can be ur obs if you need to clear mines or put a cannoon on each base.
So it's a free eco damaging build that scouts for you so you know to whether go full all-in (by making 1 or 2 more oracle and void rays with 3 gate push) or transition into eco/tech route. Reaper opening is just straight up bo loss now, and terran is forced to go 14 cc first or some crazy 1-1-1 kind of tech heavy build. Both builds are risky cuz if toss ever does anything other than proxy star gate, they are so far ahead.
All the buff has done is given made the mu more of a coin-flip mu. I really would like them to describe in detail why they made this change, and how pros adapted to it during the early test-stage to these changes.
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Double photon overcharge is needed to fend off sneaky zerg tech switch and as others stated toss needs to spend a lot of mid game gas so the upgrades I don't expect to be increased in cost. Slower moving colossus, well colossus feels clunky enough to me now.
The nerf idea that suddenly popped into my head today was faster de-creeping, possibly only for overlord poops.
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On November 18 2013 12:45 Striker123 wrote:
I really have 0 idea why they buffed oracle. Almost every toss just goes proxy star gate in masters now. Make two pylons so a reaper or marines that early can't un-power star gate, then make one oracle which hits faster than widow mines (unless you rush fact with some crazy early double gas in which case if toss ever doesn't go oracle opening, you are fucked so I am going to ignore this option). It's a 100% guaranteed damage to eco and then you get to scout. If you scout that terran already has turrets/more than 6 marines, you know he went a non-eco/non-tech build so you just make mothership core and go into eco toss with one oracle constantly harassing. It also allows you to just go into templar cuz oracle can be ur obs if you need to clear mines or put a cannoon on each base.
So it's a free eco damaging build that scouts for you so you know to whether go full all-in (by making 1 or 2 more oracle and void rays with 3 gate push) or transition into eco/tech route. Reaper opening is just straight up bo loss now, and terran is forced to go 14 cc first or some crazy 1-1-1 kind of tech heavy build. Both builds are risky cuz if toss ever does anything other than proxy star gate, they are so far ahead.
All the buff has done is given made the mu more of a coin-flip mu. I really would like them to describe in detail why they made this change, and how pros adapted to it during the early test-stage to these changes.
dude what?
i beg you to play PvT it seems to me from your post that you don't and it sounds like your opponents are simply out playing you
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On November 18 2013 15:27 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 12:45 Striker123 wrote:
I really have 0 idea why they buffed oracle. Almost every toss just goes proxy star gate in masters now. Make two pylons so a reaper or marines that early can't un-power star gate, then make one oracle which hits faster than widow mines (unless you rush fact with some crazy early double gas in which case if toss ever doesn't go oracle opening, you are fucked so I am going to ignore this option). It's a 100% guaranteed damage to eco and then you get to scout. If you scout that terran already has turrets/more than 6 marines, you know he went a non-eco/non-tech build so you just make mothership core and go into eco toss with one oracle constantly harassing. It also allows you to just go into templar cuz oracle can be ur obs if you need to clear mines or put a cannoon on each base.
So it's a free eco damaging build that scouts for you so you know to whether go full all-in (by making 1 or 2 more oracle and void rays with 3 gate push) or transition into eco/tech route. Reaper opening is just straight up bo loss now, and terran is forced to go 14 cc first or some crazy 1-1-1 kind of tech heavy build. Both builds are risky cuz if toss ever does anything other than proxy star gate, they are so far ahead.
All the buff has done is given made the mu more of a coin-flip mu. I really would like them to describe in detail why they made this change, and how pros adapted to it during the early test-stage to these changes. dude what? i beg you to play PvT it seems to me from your post that you don't and it sounds like your opponents are simply out playing you
That was good, you literally said 0 things about the game or balance and just starting talking smack. What part of the post does it seem like I am simply getting outplayed when all I talk about is thought-process and build orders from both race? And how is me paying PvT going to change anything?
Learn to use logic, and learn to write constructively. None of the things I said has anything to do with skill of a terran/toss player. Clearly you are not even in masters so you don't know, but most toss do go for oracle opening now. It's simply most effective and I was saying that it is probably too effective with the speed buff. I hope that went through your head this time.
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On November 18 2013 15:38 Striker123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 15:27 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 18 2013 12:45 Striker123 wrote:
I really have 0 idea why they buffed oracle. Almost every toss just goes proxy star gate in masters now. Make two pylons so a reaper or marines that early can't un-power star gate, then make one oracle which hits faster than widow mines (unless you rush fact with some crazy early double gas in which case if toss ever doesn't go oracle opening, you are fucked so I am going to ignore this option). It's a 100% guaranteed damage to eco and then you get to scout. If you scout that terran already has turrets/more than 6 marines, you know he went a non-eco/non-tech build so you just make mothership core and go into eco toss with one oracle constantly harassing. It also allows you to just go into templar cuz oracle can be ur obs if you need to clear mines or put a cannoon on each base.
So it's a free eco damaging build that scouts for you so you know to whether go full all-in (by making 1 or 2 more oracle and void rays with 3 gate push) or transition into eco/tech route. Reaper opening is just straight up bo loss now, and terran is forced to go 14 cc first or some crazy 1-1-1 kind of tech heavy build. Both builds are risky cuz if toss ever does anything other than proxy star gate, they are so far ahead.
All the buff has done is given made the mu more of a coin-flip mu. I really would like them to describe in detail why they made this change, and how pros adapted to it during the early test-stage to these changes. dude what? i beg you to play PvT it seems to me from your post that you don't and it sounds like your opponents are simply out playing you That was good, you literally said 0 things about the game or balance and just starting talking smack. What part of the post does it seem like I am simply getting outplayed when all I talk about is thought-process and build orders from both race? And how is me paying PvT going to change anything? Learn to use logic, and learn to write constructively. None of the things I said has anything to do with skill of a terran/toss player. Clearly you are not even in masters so you don't know, but most toss do go for oracle opening now. It's simply most effective and I was saying that it is probably too effective with the speed buff. I hope that went through your head this time.
aha so i was right. it will show you the other perspective. it is very important to see the other perspective.
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On November 12 2013 08:31 Faust852 wrote:
Stupid patch, fucking useless. Just delete terran from the game it would be the same.
Upgrade change ? Only affect TvT,
Tanks ? Only affect TvT,
Oracles ? YEY SO STRONK LATEGAME NOW ! IT S NOT LIKE SOS AND DUCKDEOK WON THEIR TVP WITH PROXY ORACLES.
Mines ? Lmao, 49% WR in TvZ but nerfing the unit to dead will be much better.
Fucking Blizzard and their fucking ideas.
Posts like these. Read the front page pls.
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On November 18 2013 15:53 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 15:38 Striker123 wrote:On November 18 2013 15:27 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 18 2013 12:45 Striker123 wrote:
I really have 0 idea why they buffed oracle. Almost every toss just goes proxy star gate in masters now. Make two pylons so a reaper or marines that early can't un-power star gate, then make one oracle which hits faster than widow mines (unless you rush fact with some crazy early double gas in which case if toss ever doesn't go oracle opening, you are fucked so I am going to ignore this option). It's a 100% guaranteed damage to eco and then you get to scout. If you scout that terran already has turrets/more than 6 marines, you know he went a non-eco/non-tech build so you just make mothership core and go into eco toss with one oracle constantly harassing. It also allows you to just go into templar cuz oracle can be ur obs if you need to clear mines or put a cannoon on each base.
So it's a free eco damaging build that scouts for you so you know to whether go full all-in (by making 1 or 2 more oracle and void rays with 3 gate push) or transition into eco/tech route. Reaper opening is just straight up bo loss now, and terran is forced to go 14 cc first or some crazy 1-1-1 kind of tech heavy build. Both builds are risky cuz if toss ever does anything other than proxy star gate, they are so far ahead.
All the buff has done is given made the mu more of a coin-flip mu. I really would like them to describe in detail why they made this change, and how pros adapted to it during the early test-stage to these changes. dude what? i beg you to play PvT it seems to me from your post that you don't and it sounds like your opponents are simply out playing you That was good, you literally said 0 things about the game or balance and just starting talking smack. What part of the post does it seem like I am simply getting outplayed when all I talk about is thought-process and build orders from both race? And how is me paying PvT going to change anything? Learn to use logic, and learn to write constructively. None of the things I said has anything to do with skill of a terran/toss player. Clearly you are not even in masters so you don't know, but most toss do go for oracle opening now. It's simply most effective and I was saying that it is probably too effective with the speed buff. I hope that went through your head this time. aha so i was right. it will show you the other perspective. it is very important to see the other perspective.
Lol this is getting better and better. So tell me then, if I play toss (which i have tried proxy oracle to get the feel of timing of oracle), what do I realize that I don't know right now.
Can you please state one fact in this discussion before you embarrass yourself too much?
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On November 18 2013 08:59 double1185 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 05:12 Big J wrote:On November 18 2013 05:01 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's a pretty common trend in TvZ for T to start raping Zerg when they hit 3/3.
I rarely see Zergs hitting it before a Terran player, even if they're hitting 1/1 and 2/2 first. That makes the transition to hive tech units even more difficult, it seems to be at this phase that top Zergs lose to top Ts.
Is this worth looking at, maybe unlocking 3/3 at the Infestation pit? You'd still need adrenal glands to maximise it.
Some of the issues seem to be Bio scaling so well with upgrades, in addition to invariably being ahead on ups. Zergs chief lategame weapon, techswitching isn't even as powerful. Broods popping out vs 0-0 Vikings was a possibility in the past, whereas now even panic Vikings will have ups as well.
This is not to say TvZ is broken, but I just noticed that Zergs seem to hang pretty damn well and then die when 3-3 hits and theyre teching to hive so often, more food for thought than anything else. yeah, because some Pro-Zergs still haven't gotten the message to stay on Lair, 2-2, get 100000000000 mutalisks, defend and deny the 4th or 5th base of Terran and wait till he leaves at 35mins due to starving. Hive before 25mins is gambling at Korean prolevel, because they will attack you and then you lack hive+infestation pit+upgrade money+ultralisk den money in defence and expansion denying. It's simply inferior and unnecessary to do and no need to patch anything there. thats so not true, if u follow a lot of ZvT most of the game Z stay in 2-2 get slaughter rite after T hit 3-3, and there are ppl screaming why not get hive and 3-3. The thing is 3-3 for T is so easy to get, especially when they have nothing to do with gas except for upgrades and its really fast. Z been good w/ muta but now T know that they just get 1 or 2 Thor the problem solve, I can see that Z gonna have a tough time for some months before a new patch or maybe a new way to play this. Z always playing a catching-up game in ZvT. Btw, making Z get 3-3 after infestation may sound fine in term of catching up in upgrade but having 3-3 before hive is just not Z anymore
People screaming is hardly an argument for doing it.
People underestimate the cost of those things. 3-3+hive+infestation pit alone costs you 750/750 and will still hit after 3-3 for Terran unless you skip MLB-play. Those zergs that die to 3-3 timings of Terran often die because they invested into those things but do not gain anything from it. It's greedy play if you do it and can't hold in the process.
You don't need those upgrades against an eternal Terran push.
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On November 18 2013 16:11 Striker123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 15:53 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 18 2013 15:38 Striker123 wrote:On November 18 2013 15:27 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 18 2013 12:45 Striker123 wrote:
I really have 0 idea why they buffed oracle. Almost every toss just goes proxy star gate in masters now. Make two pylons so a reaper or marines that early can't un-power star gate, then make one oracle which hits faster than widow mines (unless you rush fact with some crazy early double gas in which case if toss ever doesn't go oracle opening, you are fucked so I am going to ignore this option). It's a 100% guaranteed damage to eco and then you get to scout. If you scout that terran already has turrets/more than 6 marines, you know he went a non-eco/non-tech build so you just make mothership core and go into eco toss with one oracle constantly harassing. It also allows you to just go into templar cuz oracle can be ur obs if you need to clear mines or put a cannoon on each base.
So it's a free eco damaging build that scouts for you so you know to whether go full all-in (by making 1 or 2 more oracle and void rays with 3 gate push) or transition into eco/tech route. Reaper opening is just straight up bo loss now, and terran is forced to go 14 cc first or some crazy 1-1-1 kind of tech heavy build. Both builds are risky cuz if toss ever does anything other than proxy star gate, they are so far ahead.
All the buff has done is given made the mu more of a coin-flip mu. I really would like them to describe in detail why they made this change, and how pros adapted to it during the early test-stage to these changes. dude what? i beg you to play PvT it seems to me from your post that you don't and it sounds like your opponents are simply out playing you That was good, you literally said 0 things about the game or balance and just starting talking smack. What part of the post does it seem like I am simply getting outplayed when all I talk about is thought-process and build orders from both race? And how is me paying PvT going to change anything? Learn to use logic, and learn to write constructively. None of the things I said has anything to do with skill of a terran/toss player. Clearly you are not even in masters so you don't know, but most toss do go for oracle opening now. It's simply most effective and I was saying that it is probably too effective with the speed buff. I hope that went through your head this time. aha so i was right. it will show you the other perspective. it is very important to see the other perspective. Lol this is getting better and better. So tell me then, if I play toss (which i have tried proxy oracle to get the feel of timing of oracle), what do I realize that I don't know right now. Can you please state one fact in this discussion before you embarrass yourself too much?
yeah go see the parts i bolded from the quotes i made of your post
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On November 18 2013 16:15 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 16:11 Striker123 wrote:On November 18 2013 15:53 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 18 2013 15:38 Striker123 wrote:On November 18 2013 15:27 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 18 2013 12:45 Striker123 wrote:
I really have 0 idea why they buffed oracle. Almost every toss just goes proxy star gate in masters now. Make two pylons so a reaper or marines that early can't un-power star gate, then make one oracle which hits faster than widow mines (unless you rush fact with some crazy early double gas in which case if toss ever doesn't go oracle opening, you are fucked so I am going to ignore this option). It's a 100% guaranteed damage to eco and then you get to scout. If you scout that terran already has turrets/more than 6 marines, you know he went a non-eco/non-tech build so you just make mothership core and go into eco toss with one oracle constantly harassing. It also allows you to just go into templar cuz oracle can be ur obs if you need to clear mines or put a cannoon on each base.
So it's a free eco damaging build that scouts for you so you know to whether go full all-in (by making 1 or 2 more oracle and void rays with 3 gate push) or transition into eco/tech route. Reaper opening is just straight up bo loss now, and terran is forced to go 14 cc first or some crazy 1-1-1 kind of tech heavy build. Both builds are risky cuz if toss ever does anything other than proxy star gate, they are so far ahead.
All the buff has done is given made the mu more of a coin-flip mu. I really would like them to describe in detail why they made this change, and how pros adapted to it during the early test-stage to these changes. dude what? i beg you to play PvT it seems to me from your post that you don't and it sounds like your opponents are simply out playing you That was good, you literally said 0 things about the game or balance and just starting talking smack. What part of the post does it seem like I am simply getting outplayed when all I talk about is thought-process and build orders from both race? And how is me paying PvT going to change anything? Learn to use logic, and learn to write constructively. None of the things I said has anything to do with skill of a terran/toss player. Clearly you are not even in masters so you don't know, but most toss do go for oracle opening now. It's simply most effective and I was saying that it is probably too effective with the speed buff. I hope that went through your head this time. aha so i was right. it will show you the other perspective. it is very important to see the other perspective. Lol this is getting better and better. So tell me then, if I play toss (which i have tried proxy oracle to get the feel of timing of oracle), what do I realize that I don't know right now. Can you please state one fact in this discussion before you embarrass yourself too much? yeah go see the parts i bolded from the quotes i made of your post
Do you know the definition of the word 'fact'? LOL am I talking to a grade 2 or is this first time talking to a person who uses logic? You bolded my statement on what difference would it make if I were to play toss. I have 0 idea what you mean by that you bolding my statement is a fact, but I have already said I did try oracle proxy as toss to get a feel for when oracle timing hits terran's base.
Now you try and tell me what I am missing here. Go on, use your intelligence to tell me what part of my statement that is clearly false and why. There is nothing about skill or anything there that is false. Every toss would agree with me on the thought-process of what would happen once oracle scouts terran's base.
I am waiting kid, please surprise me.
User was warned for this post
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On November 18 2013 16:20 Striker123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 16:15 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 18 2013 16:11 Striker123 wrote:On November 18 2013 15:53 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 18 2013 15:38 Striker123 wrote:On November 18 2013 15:27 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 18 2013 12:45 Striker123 wrote:
I really have 0 idea why they buffed oracle. Almost every toss just goes proxy star gate in masters now. Make two pylons so a reaper or marines that early can't un-power star gate, then make one oracle which hits faster than widow mines (unless you rush fact with some crazy early double gas in which case if toss ever doesn't go oracle opening, you are fucked so I am going to ignore this option). It's a 100% guaranteed damage to eco and then you get to scout. If you scout that terran already has turrets/more than 6 marines, you know he went a non-eco/non-tech build so you just make mothership core and go into eco toss with one oracle constantly harassing. It also allows you to just go into templar cuz oracle can be ur obs if you need to clear mines or put a cannoon on each base.
So it's a free eco damaging build that scouts for you so you know to whether go full all-in (by making 1 or 2 more oracle and void rays with 3 gate push) or transition into eco/tech route. Reaper opening is just straight up bo loss now, and terran is forced to go 14 cc first or some crazy 1-1-1 kind of tech heavy build. Both builds are risky cuz if toss ever does anything other than proxy star gate, they are so far ahead.
All the buff has done is given made the mu more of a coin-flip mu. I really would like them to describe in detail why they made this change, and how pros adapted to it during the early test-stage to these changes. dude what? i beg you to play PvT it seems to me from your post that you don't and it sounds like your opponents are simply out playing you That was good, you literally said 0 things about the game or balance and just starting talking smack. What part of the post does it seem like I am simply getting outplayed when all I talk about is thought-process and build orders from both race? And how is me paying PvT going to change anything? Learn to use logic, and learn to write constructively. None of the things I said has anything to do with skill of a terran/toss player. Clearly you are not even in masters so you don't know, but most toss do go for oracle opening now. It's simply most effective and I was saying that it is probably too effective with the speed buff. I hope that went through your head this time. aha so i was right. it will show you the other perspective. it is very important to see the other perspective. Lol this is getting better and better. So tell me then, if I play toss (which i have tried proxy oracle to get the feel of timing of oracle), what do I realize that I don't know right now. Can you please state one fact in this discussion before you embarrass yourself too much? yeah go see the parts i bolded from the quotes i made of your post Do you know the definition of the word 'fact'? LOL am I talking to a grade 2 or is this first time talking to a person who uses logic? You bolded my statement on what difference would it make if I were to play toss. I have 0 idea what you mean by that you bolding my statement is a fact, but I have already said I did try oracle proxy as toss to get a feel for when oracle timing hits terran's base. Now you try and tell me what I am missing here. Go on, use your intelligence to tell me what part of my statement that is clearly false and why. There is nothing about skill or anything there that is false. Every toss would agree with me on the thought-process of what would happen once oracle scouts terran's base. I am waiting kid, please surprise me.
no look at the quote of the original post
User was warned for this post
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On November 18 2013 16:26 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 16:20 Striker123 wrote:On November 18 2013 16:15 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 18 2013 16:11 Striker123 wrote:On November 18 2013 15:53 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 18 2013 15:38 Striker123 wrote:On November 18 2013 15:27 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 18 2013 12:45 Striker123 wrote:
I really have 0 idea why they buffed oracle. Almost every toss just goes proxy star gate in masters now. Make two pylons so a reaper or marines that early can't un-power star gate, then make one oracle which hits faster than widow mines (unless you rush fact with some crazy early double gas in which case if toss ever doesn't go oracle opening, you are fucked so I am going to ignore this option). It's a 100% guaranteed damage to eco and then you get to scout. If you scout that terran already has turrets/more than 6 marines, you know he went a non-eco/non-tech build so you just make mothership core and go into eco toss with one oracle constantly harassing. It also allows you to just go into templar cuz oracle can be ur obs if you need to clear mines or put a cannoon on each base.
So it's a free eco damaging build that scouts for you so you know to whether go full all-in (by making 1 or 2 more oracle and void rays with 3 gate push) or transition into eco/tech route. Reaper opening is just straight up bo loss now, and terran is forced to go 14 cc first or some crazy 1-1-1 kind of tech heavy build. Both builds are risky cuz if toss ever does anything other than proxy star gate, they are so far ahead.
All the buff has done is given made the mu more of a coin-flip mu. I really would like them to describe in detail why they made this change, and how pros adapted to it during the early test-stage to these changes. dude what? i beg you to play PvT it seems to me from your post that you don't and it sounds like your opponents are simply out playing you That was good, you literally said 0 things about the game or balance and just starting talking smack. What part of the post does it seem like I am simply getting outplayed when all I talk about is thought-process and build orders from both race? And how is me paying PvT going to change anything? Learn to use logic, and learn to write constructively. None of the things I said has anything to do with skill of a terran/toss player. Clearly you are not even in masters so you don't know, but most toss do go for oracle opening now. It's simply most effective and I was saying that it is probably too effective with the speed buff. I hope that went through your head this time. aha so i was right. it will show you the other perspective. it is very important to see the other perspective. Lol this is getting better and better. So tell me then, if I play toss (which i have tried proxy oracle to get the feel of timing of oracle), what do I realize that I don't know right now. Can you please state one fact in this discussion before you embarrass yourself too much? yeah go see the parts i bolded from the quotes i made of your post Do you know the definition of the word 'fact'? LOL am I talking to a grade 2 or is this first time talking to a person who uses logic? You bolded my statement on what difference would it make if I were to play toss. I have 0 idea what you mean by that you bolding my statement is a fact, but I have already said I did try oracle proxy as toss to get a feel for when oracle timing hits terran's base. Now you try and tell me what I am missing here. Go on, use your intelligence to tell me what part of my statement that is clearly false and why. There is nothing about skill or anything there that is false. Every toss would agree with me on the thought-process of what would happen once oracle scouts terran's base. I am waiting kid, please surprise me. no look at the quote of the original post
LOL, bolding isn't stating a 'fact', please go find a dictionary before you reply anymore. You think you can at least be on the same page if you want to have a proper argument? Tell me, how any of the things you bolded is false or why you think its false, with facts please like numbers/build orders/timings. Fyi, this is how a discussion/argument is done, I hope you are learning a lot today.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 18 2013 12:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
It made sense because Toss had to invest in sentries or potentially get raped, so it freed up some gas. Especially as PvT pretty much necessitated the higher tech AoE units.
I don't see that as the case now.
PS those suggested nerfs were an either/or, not all at once. Even with quick Collosus Toss don't really get to retreat vs stimmed bio or most Zerg stuff without recalling anyway.
Yeah I get it. I just am generally hesitant about most nerfs since I think it's all a bit precarious.
What i'd want would be outright redesigns but if I go on too much Rabiator will ping in :p
Actually while we're talking about repealing old buffs. Why did we reduce Infestor damage again? I hate chain fungal etc etc but I always get the feeling zerg needs some sort of reliable sort of damage against the bioball. (Kinda like how Collosi are great because there's some guaranteed set of damage you're always doing while storms sometimes end up looking a bit impotent from stimmed dancing.)
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The good thing seems to be that terrans can still win games after the patch. Maybe we can stop the "Terran is doomed and D.Kim hates us all" and take the discussion into more reasonable levels.
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On November 18 2013 18:26 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 12:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
It made sense because Toss had to invest in sentries or potentially get raped, so it freed up some gas. Especially as PvT pretty much necessitated the higher tech AoE units.
I don't see that as the case now.
PS those suggested nerfs were an either/or, not all at once. Even with quick Collosus Toss don't really get to retreat vs stimmed bio or most Zerg stuff without recalling anyway. Yeah I get it. I just am generally hesitant about most nerfs since I think it's all a bit precarious. What i'd want would be outright redesigns but if I go on too much Rabiator will ping in :p Actually while we're talking about repealing old buffs. Why did we reduce Infestor damage again? I hate chain fungal etc etc but I always get the feeling zerg needs some sort of reliable sort of damage against the bioball. (Kinda like how Collosi are great because there's some guaranteed set of damage you're always doing while storms sometimes end up looking a bit impotent from stimmed dancing.)
Everyone hated infestors because it was the best unit against everything: best damage dealers, best drop-defense, best harass, best anti-air. Zergs didn't need to make decisions, they just had to get infestors up. There were 20 or more of them in each zerg army. Its even worse now that it has more range (fungals out of vision range, so you cannot do anything about them) although it's a skill-shot which does help in micro-versus-micro gameplay. Now infestors are still utilized in zerg armies, but they aren't the best thing ever.
Colossi might be great if you're a low APM protoss, but if you think about it, gameplay and spectating wise the HT is a much better unit. Both the damage dealer and the defender can micro to increase or decrease the damage. And that raises the skill ceiling, allowing better players to distinguish themselves. With colossus, you either have vikings or you do not (although vikings v anti-air is a battle of micro, often it boils down to whether you have enough vikings to just go in and snipe, or you have enough anti-air so it doesn't matter), and defensive micro can do very little. If the colossus were slower (not that I think this is the important P nerf we should be discussing at the moment), there would be more depth to army movement, which would once again raise the skill ceiling.
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Was that supposed to be a joke?
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EPT
