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Firkraag8
Sweden1006 Posts
On November 14 2013 23:45 10bulgares wrote: Did you really face a problem with the new oracle? What was the problem with zergs? The problem with zergs was they had issues reactively getting up spores vs whatever a protoss could do to them (DT's/Air) that usually hits before you had evos up normally. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Its actually better if they waste some energy on Mules / Workers so you can continue to get your marine count up lol | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:20 Existor wrote: They can spot for proxies, they are fast and can regenerate. It's way better than overlords to check proxies. Why? Reactor-marines aren't more marines? Plus you can make 2 widow mines at time if switch addon for factory 2'44 Reaper 3'29 Reactor 4'44 Marines 1-2 finish 5'09 Marines 3-4 finish, Oracle soon in your mineral line having fun 5'34 Marines 5-6 finish 5'55 fastest first Mine if you went fact after Reaper reactor expand. → 4'10-25 EB and Turrets mandatory to defend. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote: 2'44 Reaper 3'29 Reactor 4'44 Marines 1-2 finish 5'09 Marines 3-4 finish, Oracle soon in your mineral line having fun 5'34 Marines 5-6 finish 5'55 fastest first Mine if you went fact after Reaper reactor expand. → 4'10-25 EB and Turrets mandatory to defend. Thank You DWF I couldn't remember the WM timing because to be honest I don't normally go WMs in the match up seeing how fast Oracles are now they have to be sitting on the Widow mine or Pass through close to the center of the range in order for the WM to even go off.... IE not a good defense seeing how it does High Damage to light units you already have to have it Burrowed before a Oracle attacks seeing how oracles will already be in your base its not a good defense AT ALL............. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
90 percent of the time there will be only 1 assimilator. Chrono will be used on the nexus constantly. He will make (and maybe cancel a zealot) and expand around 22 supply while making an MSC and stalker. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:30 Pirfiktshon wrote: Thank You DWF I couldn't remember the WM timing because to be honest I don't normally go WMs in the match up seeing how fast Oracles are now they have to be sitting on the Widow mine or Pass through close to the center of the range in order for the WM to even go off.... IE not a good defense seeing how it does High Damage to light units you already have to have it Burrowed before a Oracle attacks seeing how oracles will already be in your base its not a good defense AT ALL............. Yes, the new Oracles can enter the radius of the Mine at some angles and still not get shot, just like lings, because they move out of the radius before the Mine even fires. This is how ridiculous the unit now is. It's impossible to defend without Turrets if Protoss pays any attention to the ground. Before the patch, you could stall with a Bunker but the new Oracle flies around so easily you will still sustain too many casualties anyway. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:33 Salient wrote: SCV scouting is pretty good. You can do it. 1 gas, 2? How many pylons in base? How many probes on gas? How much gas has been mined? Is warpgate tech started right away? How is he using chrono? 90 percent of the time there will be only 1 assimilator. He will make (and maybe cancel a zealot) and expand around 22 supply while making an MSC and stalker. thank you very much. We terran players are too dumb to realize that by ourselfs. Also counting pylons is really hard, might go back to elemetary school for that. | ||
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:20 Existor wrote: They can spot for proxies, they are fast and can regenerate. It's way better than overlords to check proxies. Why? Reactor-marines aren't more marines? Plus you can make 2 widow mines at time if switch addon for factory It is mathematically impossible to get enough marines to defend a reasonably quick proxy oracle going reaper -> reactor -> lots of marines with the standard 12 rax 12 gas timing. (It takes 6 marines to beat an oracle) Proof http://sc2planner.com/?v=hots#PaaaoCafaafaoDaoBaoBaiHaiHoCoFaoCaaoIaaffiY (a non optimised proxy oracle build) http://sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoFoDaacaoCloEfaoQajiZjiZjiZ (typical reaper reactor opening) Incidentally going reaper -> reactor -> factory for mines as you suggest is also too slow More Proof http://sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoFoDaacaoCloEfaoQaoIjiZjiZiHjiZ (reaper reactor opening rushing mines) Experimenting with the timings it looks like terran is actually extremely restricted in terms of openings to deal with the fastest proxy oracles | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:33 Salient wrote: SCV scouting is pretty good. You can do it. 1 gas, 2? How many pylons in base? How many probes on gas? How much gas has been mined? Is warpgate tech started right away? How is he using chrono? 90 percent of the time there will be only 1 assimilator. He will make (and maybe cancel a zealot) and expand around 22 supply while making an MSC and stalker. Off topic. The main issue is that you can scout the proxy Oracle, defend it without any direct damage and still be only even because you had to invest so much in EB + Turrets that his delayed Nexus doesn't even matter. Can you imagine Terran opening proxy Cloak Banshee every game and still being even despite a perfect defence from Protoss? How ridiculous would it be? All those low-risk attempts at accidentally winning the game into not being behind anyway are so grotesque from a conceptual point of view. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:35 TeeTS wrote: thank you very much. We terran players are too dumb to realize that by ourselfs. Also counting pylons is really hard, might go back to elemetary school for that. It seems so. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:33 Salient wrote: SCV scouting is pretty good. You can do it. 1 gas, 2? How many pylons in base? How many probes on gas? How much gas has been mined? Is warpgate tech started right away? How is he using chrono? 90 percent of the time there will be only 1 assimilator. Chrono will be used on the nexus constantly. He will make (and maybe cancel a zealot) and expand around 22 supply while making an MSC and stalker. This and Like many other Condescending quotes are coming from Protoss players......... Zergs seem to be more sympathetic.... Again I would totally be ok with this If they would remove E-Bay Requirement for Turrets. Just need a Barax for turrets woudl fix this | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
Since I was looking at timings, I figured Id check scouting out too. I used alterzim stronghold. If you scv scout with the scv that completes the supply depot and scout the enemy last, you will be able to check both gases at just after 4.30. Thats too slow to reactively build an engineering bay and missile turret for the quickest oracle (takes a minute to build the turret, oracle out at 5.05-5.10ish). | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:45 Faust852 wrote: I don't understand why people try to argue that the reaper opening is safe against proxy oracle, it is not, if the P do a normal proxy oracle build, you won't have enough marine, if he decides to kill your marines you have lost the game because a second one in coming and he can make a 3 gate transition that will kill you anyway. It is with a quick EB and Turrets. You have to park your Marines in your Bunker or in the radius of one of your Turrets. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote: You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here, both T and P (outside of the TheDwf, seen some good and reasonable posts by this [I think] terran) don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:47 TheDwf wrote: It is with a quick EB and Turrets. You have to park your Marines in your Bunker or in the radius of one of your Turrets. Yeah but still the protoss will not be late because of the commitment, and you can't put a pressure after that opening. :/ | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:47 FirstGear wrote: Since I was looking at timings, I figured Id check scouting out too. I used alterzim stronghold. If you scv scout with the scv that completes the supply depot and scout the enemy last, you will be able to check both gases at just after 4.30. Thats too slow to reactively build an engineering bay and missile turret for the quickest oracle (takes a minute to build the turret, oracle out at 5.05-5.10ish). So he scouts you first and you scout him last and he proxies. Yeah, that would suck for any race in any matchup. It's mostly only a problem versus map hackers. | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:43 Pirfiktshon wrote: This and Like many other Condescending quotes are coming from Protoss players......... Zergs seem to be more sympathetic.... Again I would totally be ok with this If they would remove E-Bay Requirement for Turrets. Just need a Barax for turrets woudl fix this ^ This. Zergs have don't need an Ebay for spores, the same threat of DTs + air didn't go away for terrans. Why not allow turrets to be made after rax? And no, this does NOT mean cannons should do the same. Unnecessary rant: + Show Spoiler + EDIT: @ Salient, So what if protoss has 2 gas and a stalker? What if you can't scout his entire main base? Do you automaticcaly assume that the last pylon is in his base? Do you send your reaper+ scv to scout the ENTIRE map looking for the proxy stargate? What if it isn't a proxy stargate, but a proxy twilight. Then a 4gate blink all in hits faster because you don't need robo for observers. What if protoss hid a Dark Shrine instead? Just seeing 2 gas is not enough to confirm anything, because it still could be warpgate + stalker + MSC + expand. (Note: It is actually impossible to reliably scout protoss because they can deny repears and scvs with stalkers from their main, and you would need to have the entire map revelead to ALWAYS find the proxy pylon.) Heck, what if you by some luck of RNG you actually find the proxy. He goes ahead anyways because his oracle is already 1/2 done and you only have 3-5 marines vs an oracle, a stalker, and maybe a mothershipcore (check my timings, I think I may be slightly off there). I suppose you could just build A widowmine and put it... somewhere... assuming you can get a factory after reaper in time for the oracle. Maybe if you built 2 bunkers.. to protect the 1 marine you now have. You know what would be nice... If Terrans were able to build 150 minerals worth of AA at once from the barracks like another unit we all know and love | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote: I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:51 Salient wrote: So he scouts you first and you scout him last and he proxies. Yeah, that would suck for any race in any matchup. It's mostly only a problem versus map hackers. He doesn't even need to proxy his oracle tbh. | ||
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