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On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV.
Or a scan... I see so many Terran play blind for so long since they will refuse to scan scout. While scanning is risky you are likely to gleam some data.
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On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting.
Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD
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On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting.
I was referring to TvP...
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Solution! Proxy Banshee against the proxy Oracle!
I do miss the banshee play in all 3 matches in WoL. Cheaper research saw it return in HotS and sometimes vs Zerg. Never see it against Protoss anymore.
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On November 15 2013 01:36 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD
All you will ever hear from Plansix is how nothing matters because all races share the same problems and have the same difficulties, and you're too negative, and Terran had 8/16 players at Blizzcon, blablabla. Nothing constructive, just vague, soothing statements fueled by the eerie idea that Blizzard knows what they're doing.
On November 15 2013 01:39 Sufinsil wrote:
Solution! Proxy Banshee against the proxy Oracle!
I do miss the banshee play in all 3 matches in WoL. Cheaper research saw it return in HotS and sometimes vs Zerg. Never see it against Protoss anymore.
Could it be that it is because F-click grants Nexus a 13 range Cannon completely negating any kind of Banshee harass for a minut, while detection is already there because it is incorporated by default in Protoss' standard build orders?
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On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting.
Yes it wont save you from 6 pool or 9 pool if you go nexus 1st like Naniwa did, but when is the last time you saw any terran aggression work before medivacs are out? I honestly don't remember a single high level game in months....
The issue is TvP matchup that basically stayed the same for terran (except for medivac boost but mid game dropping has become map dependent) while protoss gained new stuff - faster warp prism with more hp, nexus canon, msc that is good both defensive and offensive, better void rays, tempests etc.
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On November 15 2013 01:41 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:36 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD All you will ever hear from Plansix is how nothing matters because all races share the same problems and have the same difficulties, and you're too negative, and Terran had 8/16 players at Blizzcon, blablabla. Nothing constructive, just vague, soothing statements fueled by the eerie idea that Blizzard knows what they're doing.
Are you saying that if I was more positive, that it would shoot a rainbow beam of positiveness that would help defend all in's similar to how the Nexus Cannon does?!?!
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On November 15 2013 01:41 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:36 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD All you will ever hear from Plansix is how nothing matters because all races share the same problems and have the same difficulties, and you're too negative, and Terran had 8/16 players at Blizzcon, blablabla. Nothing constructive, just vague, soothing statements fueled by the eerie idea that Blizzard knows what they're doing.
It's ok Dwf, all we ever hear from you is whining about this problem and how hard your race is. We are both very consistent in our posting.
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On November 15 2013 01:43 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Yes it wont save you from 6 pool or 9 pool if you go nexus 1st like Naniwa did, but when is the last time you saw any terran aggression work before medivacs are out? I honestly don't remember a single high level game in months.... The issue is TvP matchup that basically stayed the same for terran (except for medivac boost but mid game dropping has become map dependent) while protoss gained new stuff - faster warp prism with more hp, nexus canon, msc that is good both defensive and offensive, better void rays, tempests etc.
Realistically there are some pre-10 minute pushes that Terrans do to draw out the Nexus Cannon, usually an 8 marine 1 marauder push but it's pretty easily pushed back. That's the only aggression that I can think of pre-10 minutes. The other one that we saw was Bomber vs sOs game 1 when he pushed out without medivacs and sOs did a sick double templar archive timing and lost his Nexus.
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On November 15 2013 01:43 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:41 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 01:36 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD All you will ever hear from Plansix is how nothing matters because all races share the same problems and have the same difficulties, and you're too negative, and Terran had 8/16 players at Blizzcon, blablabla. Nothing constructive, just vague, soothing statements fueled by the eerie idea that Blizzard knows what they're doing. Are you saying that if I was more positive, that it would shoot a rainbow beam of positiveness that would help defend all in's similar to how the Nexus Cannon does?!?!
Funniest Quote 2013 Right here hahahahahahaha.
I think we should have a Game Wide Day where Protoss players play Terran on Ladder and Terran Players Play Protoss on Ladder and then see who posts hahahahaha
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On November 15 2013 01:35 Sufinsil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Or a scan... I see so many Terran play blind for so long since they will refuse to scan scout. While scanning is risky you are likely to gleam some data.
Scanning is a coin flip which costs minerals. Again, not saying scanning is not good. But the reason the pros don't do it often is based on their experience and the risk vs reward. Sometimes, you will see Terrans scan after they have picked up on something (spot probe moving out to place pylon). Funny enough, you almost always see Terrans scan in TvT at an early game timing to spot cloak banshees. So it is obvious the pro Terrans aren't oppose to scan scouting. It is just that in the other match ups, it just isn't cost effective unless you are pretty sure your opponent is doing early aggression and you want to make sure. Again, risk vs reward.
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On November 15 2013 01:45 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:43 Qwerty85 wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Yes it wont save you from 6 pool or 9 pool if you go nexus 1st like Naniwa did, but when is the last time you saw any terran aggression work before medivacs are out? I honestly don't remember a single high level game in months.... The issue is TvP matchup that basically stayed the same for terran (except for medivac boost but mid game dropping has become map dependent) while protoss gained new stuff - faster warp prism with more hp, nexus canon, msc that is good both defensive and offensive, better void rays, tempests etc. Realistically there are some pre-10 minute pushes that Terrans do to draw out the Nexus Cannon, usually an 8 marine 1 marauder push but it's pretty easily pushed back. That's the only aggression that I can think of pre-10 minutes. The other one that we saw was Bomber vs sOs game 1 when he pushed out without medivacs and sOs did a sick double templar archive timing and lost his Nexus.
Thats true but If Protoss goes the 1-2 Sentries you DON"T GET AWAY WITH THOSE UNITS unless he messes up.....
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On November 15 2013 01:45 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:35 Sufinsil wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Or a scan... I see so many Terran play blind for so long since they will refuse to scan scout. While scanning is risky you are likely to gleam some data. Scanning is a coin flip which costs minerals. Again, not saying scanning is not good. But the reason the pros don't do it often is based on their experience and the risk vs reward. Sometimes, you will see Terrans scan after they have picked up on something (spot probe moving out to place pylon). Funny enough, you almost always see Terrans scan in TvT at an early game timing to spot cloak banshees. So it is obvious the pro Terrans aren't oppose to scan scouting. It is just that in the other match ups, it just isn't cost effective unless you are pretty sure your opponent is doing early aggression and you want to make sure. Again, risk vs reward.
You should not even bother trying to explain to Protoss players why scanning is so unreliable. All feedback you will ever get is how you're a greedy bastard addicted to MULEs.
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On November 15 2013 01:47 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:45 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:43 Qwerty85 wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Yes it wont save you from 6 pool or 9 pool if you go nexus 1st like Naniwa did, but when is the last time you saw any terran aggression work before medivacs are out? I honestly don't remember a single high level game in months.... The issue is TvP matchup that basically stayed the same for terran (except for medivac boost but mid game dropping has become map dependent) while protoss gained new stuff - faster warp prism with more hp, nexus canon, msc that is good both defensive and offensive, better void rays, tempests etc. Realistically there are some pre-10 minute pushes that Terrans do to draw out the Nexus Cannon, usually an 8 marine 1 marauder push but it's pretty easily pushed back. That's the only aggression that I can think of pre-10 minutes. The other one that we saw was Bomber vs sOs game 1 when he pushed out without medivacs and sOs did a sick double templar archive timing and lost his Nexus. Thats true but If Protoss goes the 1-2 Sentries you DON"T GET AWAY WITH THOSE UNITS unless he messes up.....
I actually think it's a bit more sentries are needed but maybe more actual army units. The thing is, that push should never do damage if you have a MSC sitting in position.
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On November 15 2013 01:45 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:43 Qwerty85 wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Yes it wont save you from 6 pool or 9 pool if you go nexus 1st like Naniwa did, but when is the last time you saw any terran aggression work before medivacs are out? I honestly don't remember a single high level game in months.... The issue is TvP matchup that basically stayed the same for terran (except for medivac boost but mid game dropping has become map dependent) while protoss gained new stuff - faster warp prism with more hp, nexus canon, msc that is good both defensive and offensive, better void rays, tempests etc. Realistically there are some pre-10 minute pushes that Terrans do to draw out the Nexus Cannon, usually an 8 marine 1 marauder push but it's pretty easily pushed back. That's the only aggression that I can think of pre-10 minutes. The other one that we saw was Bomber vs sOs game 1 when he pushed out without medivacs and sOs did a sick double templar archive timing and lost his Nexus.
Yeah, and the 8 marine 1 marauder push pretty much just dies if the Protoss has 2 sentries and land good force fields. And the game is pretty much a death animation from that point on with only a slight chance to comeback. Again, the core issue is risk and reward. Forcing out the nexus cannon might give the Terrans a 5% advantage in game where if it is countered they are at 25% disadvantage.
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On November 15 2013 01:51 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:45 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:43 Qwerty85 wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Yes it wont save you from 6 pool or 9 pool if you go nexus 1st like Naniwa did, but when is the last time you saw any terran aggression work before medivacs are out? I honestly don't remember a single high level game in months.... The issue is TvP matchup that basically stayed the same for terran (except for medivac boost but mid game dropping has become map dependent) while protoss gained new stuff - faster warp prism with more hp, nexus canon, msc that is good both defensive and offensive, better void rays, tempests etc. Realistically there are some pre-10 minute pushes that Terrans do to draw out the Nexus Cannon, usually an 8 marine 1 marauder push but it's pretty easily pushed back. That's the only aggression that I can think of pre-10 minutes. The other one that we saw was Bomber vs sOs game 1 when he pushed out without medivacs and sOs did a sick double templar archive timing and lost his Nexus. Yeah, and the 8 marine 1 marauder push pretty much just dies if the Protoss has 2 sentries and land good force fields. And the game is pretty much a death animation from that point on with only a slight chance to comeback. Again, the core issue is risk and reward. Forcing out the nexus cannon might give the Terrans a 5% advantage in game where if it is countered they are at 25% disadvantage.
It's okay. We have MULES
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On November 15 2013 01:45 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:43 Qwerty85 wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Yes it wont save you from 6 pool or 9 pool if you go nexus 1st like Naniwa did, but when is the last time you saw any terran aggression work before medivacs are out? I honestly don't remember a single high level game in months.... The issue is TvP matchup that basically stayed the same for terran (except for medivac boost but mid game dropping has become map dependent) while protoss gained new stuff - faster warp prism with more hp, nexus canon, msc that is good both defensive and offensive, better void rays, tempests etc. Realistically there are some pre-10 minute pushes that Terrans do to draw out the Nexus Cannon, usually an 8 marine 1 marauder push but it's pretty easily pushed back. That's the only aggression that I can think of pre-10 minutes. The other one that we saw was Bomber vs sOs game 1 when he pushed out without medivacs and sOs did a sick double templar archive timing and lost his Nexus.
I just dont consider forcing nexus canon for the risk of losing all your bio a good pressure build. That sort of play with small bio packs worked fine in WoL but it gets shut down in Hots all the time.
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Well, after the frustration about this clusterfuck settled down, I think we just have to live with it. David Kim did not do anything when TvZ winrates dropped to around 30% after the Queen patch. Do you really think he will do something here, even IF our worst predictions come true? We had terrible terrible terran performances over 10 months before the start of HotS, caused by a bad patch and with no further interception by Blizzard. The same might happen here again. If that´s the case, just wait till LotV and the funny game starts again.
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On November 15 2013 01:59 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:45 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:43 Qwerty85 wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Yes it wont save you from 6 pool or 9 pool if you go nexus 1st like Naniwa did, but when is the last time you saw any terran aggression work before medivacs are out? I honestly don't remember a single high level game in months.... The issue is TvP matchup that basically stayed the same for terran (except for medivac boost but mid game dropping has become map dependent) while protoss gained new stuff - faster warp prism with more hp, nexus canon, msc that is good both defensive and offensive, better void rays, tempests etc. Realistically there are some pre-10 minute pushes that Terrans do to draw out the Nexus Cannon, usually an 8 marine 1 marauder push but it's pretty easily pushed back. That's the only aggression that I can think of pre-10 minutes. The other one that we saw was Bomber vs sOs game 1 when he pushed out without medivacs and sOs did a sick double templar archive timing and lost his Nexus. I just dont consider forcing nexus canon for the risk of losing all your bio a good pressure build. That sort of play with small bio packs worked fine in WoL but it gets shut down in Hots all the time.
Ironically, the remaining pressure builds (1-1-1 after or before expand) were further weakened with this patch. They had already some vulnerabilities to an Oracle countering because your Marines and Mines are used for pressure, thus leaving the base defenceless for some time, but now it's going to be even worse with the increased Stargate play.
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On November 15 2013 02:01 TeeTS wrote:
Well, after the frustration about this clusterfuck settled down, I think we just have to live with it. David Kim did not do anything when TvZ winrates dropped to around 30% after the Queen patch. Do you really think he will do something here, even IF our worst predictions come true? We had terrible terrible terran performances over 10 months before the start of HotS, caused by a bad patch and with no further interception by Blizzard. The same might happen here again. If that´s the case, just wait till LotV and the funny game starts again.
my previous answer would've been to all in more
but since I can't all in
I don't know, be positive and shit I guess.
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EPT
