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New patch is good, more tank buff would be VERY FUCKING AWESOME PLEASE AND THANKS! but beyond that I love having 3-3 vikings vs 0-0 broods. the mech combined upgrades is legit as fuck.
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i'm going to 11/11 everygame agianst protoss Maybe I'll get back into GM this season maybe I won't hahahaha
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On November 15 2013 01:22 vthree wrote:Regarding your comment about Maru. You really think one of the best terrans in the world doesn't know about ghosts? His heavy aggression style needs him to be constantly producing marines, marauders and medivacs to keep trading with the Protoss. If he tries to transition to ghosts too early, he just gets killed I'm the transition [....]
With your comment about Maru, it seems like you don't have a deep understand either. It is a conscious decision not to use ghosts.
On November 15 2013 01:23 Chaggi wrote:
To even think that Maru if he went ghosts would've won, means you don't have any understanding of his style beyond a basic bronze level of LOL AGGRESSION.
Lol his coach, casters and multiple pros said the same thing about his ghost usage. You can even see he adjusted his play in global finals to use them. Not saying guaranteed 100% win (nothing ever is in sc2, except like me vs. jd lol), but don't look silly saying he shouldn't/couldn't have gotten ghosts, he even knows that himself (seen by his adjusted play if you watched his TvPs @ blizzcon). Feel free to call them all stupid too tbh
On November 15 2013 01:23 Chaggi wrote:
You know what it takes to prevent a Protoss from dying in the first 10 minutes of the game? a MSC with 100 energy and some sentries. That is literally it.
What's the point of making gross exagerations when trying to justify your points, it just makes you look silly. If at 10 minutes, toss has a MSC and some sentries you can't do any damage with drops and multi pronged attacks, you are bad lol And toss is bad for only having that. Let's not balance around bad players.
It's not a secret TvP has flipped roles, from where in WoL toss would defend defend defend against a multitude of terran options, and now terran has to defend defend against a multitude of early game options until they can flip the switch on the aggro in the midgame. We need to find a way to balance this and give terran more options to punish/surprise toss, I am not trying to argue with that. I'm just arguing that a lot of points here are blatant uninformed whining, and that most people have some pretty far fetched ideas on how good these proxy oracle builds are in all situations against any builds whether scouted or not. You'll have to adjust your play style, end of story. And if you want to whine and whine along side your terran buddies, that's fine we all do it (I was a big sad zealot fan back in the day of 5 toss in GomTvT), just don't pretend it's meaningful discussions where you bring valid points lol
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On November 15 2013 01:41 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:36 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD All you will ever hear from Plansix is how nothing matters because all races share the same problems and have the same difficulties, and you're too negative, and Terran had 8/16 players at Blizzcon, blablabla. Nothing constructive, just vague, soothing statements fueled by the eerie idea that Blizzard knows what they're doing.
The irony is painful.
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Do u guys think Marauder Hellbat TvP will be more viable since the combined upgrade?
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Let's focus on the positive. Blizzard finally fixed ZvT. 
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France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 02:17 ffadicted wrote:
It's not a secret TvP has flipped roles, from where in WoL toss would defend defend defend against a multitude of terran options, and now terran has to defend defend against a multitude of early game options until they can flip the switch on the aggro in the midgame. We need to find a way to balance this and give terran more options to punish/surprise toss, I am not trying to argue with that. I'm just arguing that a lot of points here are blatant uninformed whining, and that most people have some pretty far fetched ideas on how good these proxy oracle builds are in all situations against any builds whether scouted or not. You'll have to adjust your play style, end of story. And if you want to whine and whine along side your terran buddies, that's fine we all do it (I was a big sad zealot fan back in the day of 5 toss in GomTvT), just don't pretend it's meaningful discussions where you bring valid points lol
Nope, the roles have precisely not been reversed. Terran still is the one who has to damage/cripple/kill Protoss before a certain point, but has way less tools to do so in the early game, and Protoss is gaining ground in midgame as well with Prism harass or simply stronger turtle than ever. WoL TvP was also a vast majority of 1 rax FE into 3 rax Medivacs at the end, and things like 2 rax Reactor first or 1-1-1 were extinct. There were some pressure openings, even after expand (e. g. gasless 4 rax, Cloak Banshees) but they were much rarer than 1 rax FE into 3 rax. On the other hand, Protoss already had lots of timings and all-ins, with Gateway pressure (4-6g), Immortal busts, etc.
On November 15 2013 02:20 Sabu113 wrote:
The irony is painful.
Says the guy whose only purpose here is to mock posts written by Terran with cheap sarcasms, continuously grumbling about the long gone days of GomTvT like a broken record? Maybe in 2020 you will be able to read a Terran post without awaking in the night with your worst nightmare floating like a giant picture right in front of your eyes. Eventually the pain will go away.
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On November 15 2013 02:17 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:22 vthree wrote:Regarding your comment about Maru. You really think one of the best terrans in the world doesn't know about ghosts? His heavy aggression style needs him to be constantly producing marines, marauders and medivacs to keep trading with the Protoss. If he tries to transition to ghosts too early, he just gets killed I'm the transition [....]
With your comment about Maru, it seems like you don't have a deep understand either. It is a conscious decision not to use ghosts.
Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:23 Chaggi wrote:
To even think that Maru if he went ghosts would've won, means you don't have any understanding of his style beyond a basic bronze level of LOL AGGRESSION. Lol his coach, casters and multiple pros said the same thing about his ghost usage. You can even see he adjusted his play in global finals to use them. Not saying guaranteed 100% win (nothing ever is in sc2, except like me vs. jd lol), but don't look silly saying he shouldn't/couldn't have gotten ghosts, he even knows that himself (seen by his adjusted play if you watched his TvPs @ blizzcon). Feel free to call them all stupid too tbh Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:23 Chaggi wrote:
You know what it takes to prevent a Protoss from dying in the first 10 minutes of the game? a MSC with 100 energy and some sentries. That is literally it.
What's the point of making gross exagerations when trying to justify your points, it just makes you look silly. If at 10 minutes, toss has a MSC and some sentries you can't do any damage with drops and multi pronged attacks, you are bad lol And toss is bad for only having that. Let's not balance around bad players. It's not a secret TvP has flipped roles, from where in WoL toss would defend defend defend against a multitude of terran options, and now terran has to defend defend against a multitude of early game options until they can flip the switch on the aggro in the midgame. We need to find a way to balance this and give terran more options to punish/surprise toss, I am not trying to argue with that. I'm just arguing that a lot of points here are blatant uninformed whining, and that most people have some pretty far fetched ideas on how good these proxy oracle builds are in all situations against any builds whether scouted or not. You'll have to adjust your play style, end of story. And if you want to whine and whine along side your terran buddies, that's fine we all do it (I was a big sad zealot fan back in the day of 5 toss in GomTvT), just don't pretend it's meaningful discussions where you bring valid points lol
Prime coach said that Maru should've used ghosts in those specific games? Casters and pros say stupid shit at the heat of the moment. Please link me your source. You really think that Maru, the youngest OSL champion, doesn't know that that ghosts are pretty good?
You're right, at 10 minutes, Protoss should have more units than that. But Terran can't do damage pre-10 minutes. No one is talking about when the medivacs come out. There is nothing that Terran can do pre-medivacs because of the MSC and Nexus Cannon whereas Protoss can have "pressure" builds that can outright kill Terran if they don't respond properly. Which is pretty damn hard because there are so many different "pressure" builds.
Just because you're talking about some blatant bias, doesn't mean our points aren't correct. I'll be the first to admit that I have bias against Protoss, but if you watch any amount of TvP, especially from the first person view of the Terran and figure out what they're thinking and why they do what they do, it's pretty easy to see that there are some big problems. Just cause WoL had similar problems in the early game with Protoss, doesn't mean Terran should now. The problem is that you're talking about these ideas being far fetched, yet you see players like TheDwf bringing actual data and actual games into the discussion. What do the Protoss in this topic do? They talk about how none of this matters, how everyone is just whining. Where's the data? Where's the games? Give us games and all ins where you see Terran putting on actual pressure pre-medivacs. Don't throw out stupid ideas like 1/1/1 when it's obvious to the players that actual play and watch the race that it doesn't work.
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On November 15 2013 02:32 Salient wrote:Let's focus on the positive. Blizzard finally fixed ZvT.
For bad players. It's a win for a-move!
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On November 15 2013 02:20 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:41 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 01:36 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD All you will ever hear from Plansix is how nothing matters because all races share the same problems and have the same difficulties, and you're too negative, and Terran had 8/16 players at Blizzcon, blablabla. Nothing constructive, just vague, soothing statements fueled by the eerie idea that Blizzard knows what they're doing. The irony is painful.
But so funny at the same time. Every single one of his posts sounds like Idra in his prime Zerg is underpowered era, which kinda never ended.
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On November 15 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 02:20 Sabu113 wrote:On November 15 2013 01:41 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 01:36 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:
[quote]
I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol
I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard.
I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol
I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD All you will ever hear from Plansix is how nothing matters because all races share the same problems and have the same difficulties, and you're too negative, and Terran had 8/16 players at Blizzcon, blablabla. Nothing constructive, just vague, soothing statements fueled by the eerie idea that Blizzard knows what they're doing. The irony is painful. But so funny at the same time. Every single one of his posts sounds like Idra in his prime Zerg is underpowered era, which kinda never ended.
Are you going to say Terran isn't struggling at the moment?
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On November 15 2013 02:17 ffadicted wrote:
It's not a secret TvP has flipped roles, from where in WoL toss would defend defend defend against a multitude of terran options, and now terran has to defend defend against a multitude of early game options until they can flip the switch on the aggro in the midgame. We need to find a way to balance this and give terran more options to punish/surprise toss, I am not trying to argue with that.
its not a reversal of roles since protoss is still stronger as the game goes on. there is no flipping of the switch when terran cannot even do any damage to the protoss before medivacs are out, meanwhile having to magically defend against the multitude of lame toss cheeses that could easily end the game. oracles almost do guaranteed damage now whether that's killing marines, scvs or simply forcing turrets+viking when terran would rather be using that $$$ to gear up for their only slim hope of winning the game: a midgame all-in with scv pull (and these dont even work any more). the fact is now protoss are both strong early and late and there is nothing terran can do about it.
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On November 15 2013 02:39 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 02:20 Sabu113 wrote:On November 15 2013 01:41 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 01:36 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:
[quote]
Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD All you will ever hear from Plansix is how nothing matters because all races share the same problems and have the same difficulties, and you're too negative, and Terran had 8/16 players at Blizzcon, blablabla. Nothing constructive, just vague, soothing statements fueled by the eerie idea that Blizzard knows what they're doing. The irony is painful. But so funny at the same time. Every single one of his posts sounds like Idra in his prime Zerg is underpowered era, which kinda never ended. Are you going to say Terran isn't struggling at the moment?
In the last 72 hours, sure. The patch is new. In the past months, not so much.
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so now that the patch has been live for a few days, does anyone actually have any high-ish level replays to share? Too much theory craft here.
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On November 15 2013 02:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 02:39 NarutO wrote:On November 15 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 02:20 Sabu113 wrote:On November 15 2013 01:41 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 01:36 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:
[quote]
I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc).
I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol
Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD All you will ever hear from Plansix is how nothing matters because all races share the same problems and have the same difficulties, and you're too negative, and Terran had 8/16 players at Blizzcon, blablabla. Nothing constructive, just vague, soothing statements fueled by the eerie idea that Blizzard knows what they're doing. The irony is painful. But so funny at the same time. Every single one of his posts sounds like Idra in his prime Zerg is underpowered era, which kinda never ended. Are you going to say Terran isn't struggling at the moment? In the last 72 hours, sure. The patch is new. In the past months, not so much.
So you have not seen the fact that Protoss has a stupid amount of pressure or all in builds pre-10 minutes and Terran has had virtually none which means that the early game belongs completely with Protoss, leaving the window to stop a Protoss deathball from forming even smaller?
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haven't really seen proxy oracle at all.
i keep on hearing this proxy oracle opening since hots is released but it is still as rare as a 10 pool opening in zvt
What happened to the proxy void ray gate way all in in pvt that everyone complained about?
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On November 15 2013 02:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 02:39 NarutO wrote:On November 15 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 02:20 Sabu113 wrote:On November 15 2013 01:41 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 01:36 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:
[quote]
I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc).
I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol
Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD All you will ever hear from Plansix is how nothing matters because all races share the same problems and have the same difficulties, and you're too negative, and Terran had 8/16 players at Blizzcon, blablabla. Nothing constructive, just vague, soothing statements fueled by the eerie idea that Blizzard knows what they're doing. The irony is painful. But so funny at the same time. Every single one of his posts sounds like Idra in his prime Zerg is underpowered era, which kinda never ended. Are you going to say Terran isn't struggling at the moment? In the last 72 hours, sure. The patch is new. In the past months, not so much.
Maybe you were not around the last few months
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On November 15 2013 02:45 wUndertUnge wrote:
so now that the patch has been live for a few days, does anyone actually have any high-ish level replays to share? Too much theory craft here.
A lot of what's seen is from 2 facts
1) Terran has had trouble with early game since HoTS came out because the MSC is really really good at early game defense.
2) The "buffs" that Terran got, mech weapons and tank firing rate change does nothing for the Terran in the MU (maybe there's blue flame/hellions being added, but that's not even the reason why hellions were very very used in TvP), especially in the late game.
The Protoss defenders seem to ignore these 2 facts and are going with the "it's fine, adapt" mindset.
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On November 15 2013 02:46 ETisME wrote:
haven't really seen proxy oracle at all.
i keep on hearing this proxy oracle opening since hots is released but it is still as rare as a 10 pool opening in zvt
What happened to the proxy void ray gate way all in in pvt that everyone complained about?
I'm not using it. Everybody is expecting it. Maybe in a couple of weeks.
Other Protoss players like myself might be thinking the same thing.
(Hallu Oracles are good though. Hahaha!) 
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On November 15 2013 02:45 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 02:44 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 02:39 NarutO wrote:On November 15 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 02:20 Sabu113 wrote:On November 15 2013 01:41 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 01:36 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD All you will ever hear from Plansix is how nothing matters because all races share the same problems and have the same difficulties, and you're too negative, and Terran had 8/16 players at Blizzcon, blablabla. Nothing constructive, just vague, soothing statements fueled by the eerie idea that Blizzard knows what they're doing. The irony is painful. But so funny at the same time. Every single one of his posts sounds like Idra in his prime Zerg is underpowered era, which kinda never ended. Are you going to say Terran isn't struggling at the moment? In the last 72 hours, sure. The patch is new. In the past months, not so much. So you have not seen the fact that Protoss has a stupid amount of pressure or all in builds pre-10 minutes and Terran has had virtually none which means that the early game belongs completely with Protoss, leaving the window to stop a Protoss deathball from forming even smaller?
Nope. I've seen good terrans win and good Protoss win. Most games of SC2 don't end that quickly anyways, regardless of race.
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