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don't forget the part where if a protoss is not watching their mini map and their oracle starts taking damage (from marines right under them) the increased speed will probably allow them to save it now before it dies. why should their mistakes not go unpunished? meanwhile as terran if you aren't watching the minimap and an oracle is in your mineral line that's 5 scvs dead guaranteed.
the leeway here is just getting out of hand and this applies to so many other areas of the game as well. e.g. if a HT lands a storm its guaranteed damage, if a ghost lands an emp the protoss army can just back away and regen shields.
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France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 03:16 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 03:08 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 03:01 RampancyTW wrote:
The #1 thing that's striking me is that the vast majority of complaints are pretty much unchanged due to the patch.
Proxy oracles especially are only hitting a few seconds earlier than they did before. So this isn't a patch issue (other than the fact that everybody is now going Oracle-heavy because the patch buffed Oracle). All of the problems being discussed would be problems pre-patch as well, just fewer people were doing it.
If anything, you should be grateful that the patch is highlighting these issues. If things continue to go poorly, some sort of damage nerf that makes it easier to fend off the more-mobile Oracle will probably be in the works. Net benefit for Protoss in their unit utility, net benefit for Terran in their opening flexibility. It's not only that, it's above all the fact they can circumvent Marines and even Mines so much more easily, and can thus deal way more free damage than before with less effort from the Protoss player. I don't see why Terrans should be grateful to be nerfed for the Xth time since 2 years, just in the vague hope the Blizzard team might awake one day and realize they went overboard with the nerf hammer or pressed the buff button too hard. At this point Blizzard seems fairly committed to improving variety/overall balance. Buffing Oracle speed makes stargate more viable as an opener, but it's definitely serving to unduly restrict Terran options, so it SHOULD lead to a corresponding Terran buff or Oracle nerf that equalizes things. So on-net it's a benefit for P and it should lead to a scenario that helps T as well. Sucks for T right now, but everybody wins in the end.
They didn't fix broods/infests in WoL. They didn't fix lategame TvP. They didn't fix the unfairness of early game TvP; they even managed to aggravate it. They didn't fix mech; they actually managed to make it worse at the release of HotS. So what makes you think they're going to fix this? Their intentions? It's been 2 years they lull players with their tales of a functional mech.
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TheOne26 thats not a fair assessment a fair assessment would be Storm kills units where Emps only deal so much damage LOL Especially because Terran units are squishier but its easier to land an emp than storm so its ok in that aspect LOL its the forever tale of Mobility vses damage
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On November 15 2013 03:12 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 03:06 Zarahtra wrote:On November 15 2013 03:01 RampancyTW wrote:
The #1 thing that's striking me is that the vast majority of complaints are pretty much unchanged due to the patch.
Proxy oracles especially are only hitting a few seconds earlier than they did before. So this isn't a patch issue (other than the fact that everybody is now going Oracle-heavy because the patch buffed Oracle). All of the problems being discussed would be problems pre-patch as well, just fewer people were doing it.
If anything, you should be grateful that the patch is highlighting these issues. If things continue to go poorly, some sort of damage nerf that makes it easier to fend off the more-mobile Oracle will probably be in the works. Net benefit for Protoss in their unit utility, net benefit for Terran in their opening flexibility. I don't know, I think it's just kind of a wet towel in the face of T, not only did they loose/make it a lot weaker I'd argue pretty much the only reliable harass they have early in teh game, they buffed a unit which already decides pretty much what T builds are viable. This at a time where T is doing the worst and not much reason to believe that is about to change at all without outside factors. That's sort of what I mean, though. Oracles were sort of gimmicky in the sense that they had poor longevity and either did a ton of damage or very little. The speed increase combined with a damage nerf would give them more utility for better players (due to the speed) but reduce their game-breaking capabilities, allow them to be more useful throughout the game to use their later-game spells, and ultimately open up Terran's build order flexibility because reduced damage will allow them to be pushed away by fewer units (if the interaction can be changed to 4 marines instead of 5, for example, it makes a huge difference). So unless something changes I agree that this patch makes things too volatile, but I think this patch highlighted that something needed to change. Proxy Oracles aren't really that much stronger than they were before, but since everybody is demonstrating that it's insanely difficult to deal with, some sort of intervention SHOULD happen. I'm firmly of the opinion that this patch didn't change much from a gameplay-standpoint in terms of early game Oracles, but it IS serving to highlight that the unchanged status quo needs a change.
Aye, I agree with you, I generally agree with the philosophy of the patch, to make oracles better in the later stages and to make tanks viable in TvZ again. I just don't see either change getting the desired effect. I'm unsure if tanks(in bio mech) will ever be viable with regening mutas and I think they needed to change the oracle from "it does insane amount of dmg or none" to a more middle of the road. Now I feel they kind of just changed it from "it does insane amount of dmg or maybe some", that is to say, just upped the lower limit slightly while not decreasing the upper one.
Again it's not really a huge issue imo, it's just a really bizzare way to balance it. But who knows, maybe they just wanted to make it very strong opening so P is kind of forced to experiment with it more and then they already have a balance patch for it planned? I atleast hope...
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On November 15 2013 02:58 NarutO wrote:
Obviously you still lose because you are not perfect, but balance is about equal effort for both parties to win, which is not true speaking of TvP.
I totally agree with this. Early game against protoss requires so much from the terran's part to *not die* while the protoss just do his own thing and is safe anyway until the 10th minute mark thanks to his MScore. This is saddening
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Protoss needs to bunker down when speedships are out. Terran can bunker down when oracles are out.
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You get frustrated when you are playing a matchup in which you cant recall last time you won a max vs max fight/ late game, and you also have to worry about dying to oracles in the first 6 min of the game, along with all the other all ins and builds. Its like TvP comes down to 2-3 minutes where I actively can make a difference to the outcome of the game. Survive to 10 min. Set up/grab the win from 10-13. From 13+ bang your head against the wall until quit.
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France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 03:19 TheOne26 wrote:
don't forget the part where if a protoss is not watching their mini map and their oracle starts taking damage (from marines right under them) the increased speed will probably allow them to save it now before it dies. why should their mistakes not go unpunished? meanwhile as terran if you aren't watching the minimap and an oracle is in your mineral line that's 5 scvs dead guaranteed.
the leeway here is just getting out of hand and this applies to so many other areas of the game as well. e.g. if a HT lands a storm its guaranteed damage, if a ghost lands an emp the protoss army can just back away and regen shields.
Yeah, the Oracle buff made them so much more forgiving. Yesterday, one Protoss flew one of his Oracles right above 6 of my Marines, still managed to escape alive; another game, the Protoss player flied one of his Oracles near 8 Marines, still survived despite hit & run from my part. Both times, the Oracle would have 100% died pre-patch (at it should from such an oversight). It's the same thing with the MSC, how many times you see a Protoss player not pay any attention to it, then get away at 5 or 10 hit points, with or without Time Warp, because the unit has so many hit points that it doesn't matter. How can one even call those units with 160 or 195 hit points "fragile" is beyond me.
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ok im going to put this out there. when do you guys think the first 'good' patch for terran will come out. one that actually improves the race properly (not some insignificant tank buff) but one that actually makes a difference.
im gonna predict there will be 2 more fail patches before the only terrans left playing are maru and innovation. then blizzard will release a patch that improves viking speed by 15% and also decrease marine damage by half, gg.
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I would honestly like to hear their reasoning on why Terran has 1 Option to win the game in TvP and how they didn't realize this before LOL
I was just thinking about this our ONLY way to win the game is to Drop try to get damage done and get ahead for the late game composition wise and catch up in upgrades.......... lol Even if you watch pro games in TvP its always the same story if terran doesn't win with the drop phase then its GG there is no coming back
To clarify i'm not talking about getting a GG out of protoss in the drop phase I mean put yourself in a winning position in the drop phase to finish protoss off in the late game...... even then protoss can come back if you mistep ever so slightly......
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On November 15 2013 03:26 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 03:19 TheOne26 wrote:
don't forget the part where if a protoss is not watching their mini map and their oracle starts taking damage (from marines right under them) the increased speed will probably allow them to save it now before it dies. why should their mistakes not go unpunished? meanwhile as terran if you aren't watching the minimap and an oracle is in your mineral line that's 5 scvs dead guaranteed.
the leeway here is just getting out of hand and this applies to so many other areas of the game as well. e.g. if a HT lands a storm its guaranteed damage, if a ghost lands an emp the protoss army can just back away and regen shields. Yeah, the Oracle buff made them so much more forgiving. Yesterday, one Protoss flew one of his Oracles right above 6 of my Marines, still managed to escape alive; another game, the Protoss player flied one of his Oracles near 8 Marines, still survived despite hit & run from my part. Both times, the Oracle would have 100% died pre-patch (at it should from such an oversight). It's the same thing with the MSC, how many times you see a Protoss player not pay any attention to it, then get away at 5 or 10 hit points, with or without Time Warp, because the unit has so many hit points that it doesn't matter. How can one even call those units with 160 or 195 hit points "fragile" is beyond me.
If you think about it, they're moving in this direction with most harrassment units, it's not an oracle thing. They did the same thing with reapers, warp prisms, medivacs and mutas. They want these units to stay alive, and I think that's a pretty good direction to head in the game.
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worst balance patch since the release of sc2
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On November 15 2013 03:27 TheOne26 wrote:
Its all about Sniping Obs if you go Viking / Ghost vses HT / Colo its as simple as that. Mostly because Storm does more to a Terran army then EMp does against protoss army in terms of Damage. EMP has longer range than storm and FB and if you have cloak and snipe obs its really easy to get a good EMP off......
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On November 13 2013 14:51 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 14:37 NKexquisite wrote:
We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone.
More interesting? Was the bio/mine micro and splitting not interesting and fun to watch vs zerg? How could it get more fun/interesting? I find his reasoning to be poor and not quite forthcoming. Two major reasons: 1) Bio/mine can be the most amazing thing in the world to watch but people will grow tired of it if its literally the only strategy you can do. A strategy game should have room for options and strategy instead of just being a micro competition where both sides know exactly what their opponent is doing. 2) Due to how widow mines work (high supply cost, high mobility) it would be crazy for a terran to play a passive game with them and let the zerg get the ultra/infestor comp. This makes point 1 even worse, because not only is terran making the same units every game they are also forced to play a very aggressive game with them. Variety is the spice of life, basically.
I guess I wish he would have said that then, b/c that I could agree with. To say its not "interesting" is is probably not true. I think its the most interesting thing to watch. Having other options, now thats something different in my mind, so I agree with your two points.
Three things I've noticed (or haven't noticed) so far this week:
1) Mine defineitly kills less
2) Oracle is crazy-wtf-fast and elusive
3) Tank change doesn't seem noticeable at all. (Is there a comparison video or something that anyone has made?)
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France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 03:35 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 03:26 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 03:19 TheOne26 wrote:
don't forget the part where if a protoss is not watching their mini map and their oracle starts taking damage (from marines right under them) the increased speed will probably allow them to save it now before it dies. why should their mistakes not go unpunished? meanwhile as terran if you aren't watching the minimap and an oracle is in your mineral line that's 5 scvs dead guaranteed.
the leeway here is just getting out of hand and this applies to so many other areas of the game as well. e.g. if a HT lands a storm its guaranteed damage, if a ghost lands an emp the protoss army can just back away and regen shields. Yeah, the Oracle buff made them so much more forgiving. Yesterday, one Protoss flew one of his Oracles right above 6 of my Marines, still managed to escape alive; another game, the Protoss player flied one of his Oracles near 8 Marines, still survived despite hit & run from my part. Both times, the Oracle would have 100% died pre-patch (at it should from such an oversight). It's the same thing with the MSC, how many times you see a Protoss player not pay any attention to it, then get away at 5 or 10 hit points, with or without Time Warp, because the unit has so many hit points that it doesn't matter. How can one even call those units with 160 or 195 hit points "fragile" is beyond me. If you think about it, they're moving in this direction with most harrassment units, it's not an oracle thing. They did the same thing with reapers, warp prisms, medivacs and mutas. They want these units to stay alive, and I think that's a pretty good direction to head in the game.
I disagree. Making things more forgiving is not a good idea because it lowers the skill floor and allows bad/mediocre players to compensate with easier tools.
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On November 15 2013 02:20 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 01:41 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 01:36 Chaggi wrote:On November 15 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote:On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote:On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 00:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
You can't go blind Counters as some people are suggesting in TvP......... You prepare for a Stargate Oracle every game you are just going to get meta d with a Blink stalker all in whats a Turret going to do vses Stalkers? I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here outside of the TheDwf don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. Are you seriously taking the comment so literally that it makes you look like a moron? No, sorry it doesn't save you from a 6, 7, 8, 9 pool, GUESS IT'S NOT REALLY THAT BAD All you will ever hear from Plansix is how nothing matters because all races share the same problems and have the same difficulties, and you're too negative, and Terran had 8/16 players at Blizzcon, blablabla. Nothing constructive, just vague, soothing statements fueled by the eerie idea that Blizzard knows what they're doing. The irony is painful.
The nerve of some people. Until you show me half a dozen strategy section threads by Plansix, I'll continue to believe Plansix is a malicious troll (together with you, yourself), while thinking that TheDwf is one of the better authorities on strategy who actually makes this site worth reading.
TT1, care to elaborate on your comment?
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On November 15 2013 03:44 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 03:35 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 03:26 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 03:19 TheOne26 wrote:
don't forget the part where if a protoss is not watching their mini map and their oracle starts taking damage (from marines right under them) the increased speed will probably allow them to save it now before it dies. why should their mistakes not go unpunished? meanwhile as terran if you aren't watching the minimap and an oracle is in your mineral line that's 5 scvs dead guaranteed.
the leeway here is just getting out of hand and this applies to so many other areas of the game as well. e.g. if a HT lands a storm its guaranteed damage, if a ghost lands an emp the protoss army can just back away and regen shields. Yeah, the Oracle buff made them so much more forgiving. Yesterday, one Protoss flew one of his Oracles right above 6 of my Marines, still managed to escape alive; another game, the Protoss player flied one of his Oracles near 8 Marines, still survived despite hit & run from my part. Both times, the Oracle would have 100% died pre-patch (at it should from such an oversight). It's the same thing with the MSC, how many times you see a Protoss player not pay any attention to it, then get away at 5 or 10 hit points, with or without Time Warp, because the unit has so many hit points that it doesn't matter. How can one even call those units with 160 or 195 hit points "fragile" is beyond me. If you think about it, they're moving in this direction with most harrassment units, it's not an oracle thing. They did the same thing with reapers, warp prisms, medivacs and mutas. They want these units to stay alive, and I think that's a pretty good direction to head in the game. I disagree. Making things more forgiving is not a good idea because it lowers the skill floor and allows bad/mediocre players to compensate with easier tools.
???
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On November 15 2013 03:36 TT1 wrote:
worst balance patch since the release of sc2
I agree oracles need to be faster.
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On November 15 2013 03:44 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 03:35 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 03:26 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 03:19 TheOne26 wrote:
don't forget the part where if a protoss is not watching their mini map and their oracle starts taking damage (from marines right under them) the increased speed will probably allow them to save it now before it dies. why should their mistakes not go unpunished? meanwhile as terran if you aren't watching the minimap and an oracle is in your mineral line that's 5 scvs dead guaranteed.
the leeway here is just getting out of hand and this applies to so many other areas of the game as well. e.g. if a HT lands a storm its guaranteed damage, if a ghost lands an emp the protoss army can just back away and regen shields. Yeah, the Oracle buff made them so much more forgiving. Yesterday, one Protoss flew one of his Oracles right above 6 of my Marines, still managed to escape alive; another game, the Protoss player flied one of his Oracles near 8 Marines, still survived despite hit & run from my part. Both times, the Oracle would have 100% died pre-patch (at it should from such an oversight). It's the same thing with the MSC, how many times you see a Protoss player not pay any attention to it, then get away at 5 or 10 hit points, with or without Time Warp, because the unit has so many hit points that it doesn't matter. How can one even call those units with 160 or 195 hit points "fragile" is beyond me. If you think about it, they're moving in this direction with most harrassment units, it's not an oracle thing. They did the same thing with reapers, warp prisms, medivacs and mutas. They want these units to stay alive, and I think that's a pretty good direction to head in the game. I disagree. Making things more forgiving is not a good idea because it lowers the skill floor and allows bad/mediocre players to compensate with easier tools.
Isn't that the Protoss race....... Sorry everyone was thinking I had to say it LOL I agree though it makes the skill ceiling easier to reach for everyone..... and raises the skill floor closer to the skill ceiling 
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France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 03:46 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 03:44 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 03:35 ffadicted wrote:On November 15 2013 03:26 TheDwf wrote:On November 15 2013 03:19 TheOne26 wrote:
don't forget the part where if a protoss is not watching their mini map and their oracle starts taking damage (from marines right under them) the increased speed will probably allow them to save it now before it dies. why should their mistakes not go unpunished? meanwhile as terran if you aren't watching the minimap and an oracle is in your mineral line that's 5 scvs dead guaranteed.
the leeway here is just getting out of hand and this applies to so many other areas of the game as well. e.g. if a HT lands a storm its guaranteed damage, if a ghost lands an emp the protoss army can just back away and regen shields. Yeah, the Oracle buff made them so much more forgiving. Yesterday, one Protoss flew one of his Oracles right above 6 of my Marines, still managed to escape alive; another game, the Protoss player flied one of his Oracles near 8 Marines, still survived despite hit & run from my part. Both times, the Oracle would have 100% died pre-patch (at it should from such an oversight). It's the same thing with the MSC, how many times you see a Protoss player not pay any attention to it, then get away at 5 or 10 hit points, with or without Time Warp, because the unit has so many hit points that it doesn't matter. How can one even call those units with 160 or 195 hit points "fragile" is beyond me. If you think about it, they're moving in this direction with most harrassment units, it's not an oracle thing. They did the same thing with reapers, warp prisms, medivacs and mutas. They want these units to stay alive, and I think that's a pretty good direction to head in the game. I disagree. Making things more forgiving is not a good idea because it lowers the skill floor and allows bad/mediocre players to compensate with easier tools. ???
What is your question?
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EPT
