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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:51 Salient wrote: So he scouts you first and you scout him last and he proxies. Yeah, that would suck for any race in any matchup. It's mostly only a problem versus map hackers. He can pull it off scouting you first or second. Though it would be pretty unlucky to happen. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:56 FirstGear wrote: He can pull it off scouting you first or second. Though it would be pretty unlucky to happen. It's not uncommon for Protoss to 9 scout on 4p maps to reactively proxy Oracles. This is what Adonminus did against Mvp or jjakji, for instance. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:49 ffadicted wrote: I heard there's this cool concept in the game called scouting, not sure if anyone else has ever heard of it. Something about reapers and scans, really not sure if anyone has ever heard of it. Teets is making me laugh, he keeps saying he doesn't know how to scout, then ppl tell him how to scout and what to look for, and he comes back with passive aggressive arguments about going back to school. Wut lol I'm loving innovation's 1 or 2 widows mines out of the factory on his way to starport, excellent way to deal with harrassment, and if harrasment doesn't come, widow mine+marine drops can be scary when catching someone off guard. I personally don't like the idea of speeding up turrets, as that puts a huge pooper on DT openings which are very fun tbh. I'd be willing to consider a oracle damage nerf now that changes went through, but would like to see how this patch plays out first, it really has only been 3 days lol I also think a lot of ppl commenting here, both T and P (outside of the TheDwf, seen some good and reasonable posts by this [I think] terran) don't really fully understand how TvP works. It's a difficult thread to navigate when looking for good and productive discussions about these changes lol. People should think and watch more pro games/streams with these changes before going full-aggro on TL Yes I understand that but some previous posters were suggesting going blind counter to Oracles and yes you are 100% right you can't just BLIND counter 1 build and expect to win you have to scout as a Terran and react appropriately........ Yes O great and wise one I have no idea how TvP Works please explain it to me your highness and pro-gamer. LOL I can't see you being happy as a protoss player having every opening shutdown by 1 Unit and any aggression shutdown by 1 single unit LOL | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:52 Faust852 wrote: Ok, Downfall is GM, but I think lot of us here are topMaster. I understand the MU I think. And About scouting, it's fun because the time you see the proxy oracle (or not), it might be too late to scout blink. It also depends on map, Like scouting the main on Belshir's Vestige with a reaper is quite hard if the protoss put his units at the right place. I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:27 TheDwf wrote: 2'44 Reaper 3'29 Reactor 4'44 Marines 1-2 finish 5'09 Marines 3-4 finish, Oracle soon in your mineral line having fun 5'34 Marines 5-6 finish 5'55 fastest first Mine if you went fact after Reaper reactor expand. → 4'10-25 EB and Turrets mandatory to defend. Just curious, if you 1rax fast expand into three rax and scout for proxies with an SCV, and build a bunker when you find the proxied stargate, how does it work out? I forget the game but I seem to recall alive on Belshire vestige scouting the stargate and stopping it despite the fact the Protoss attempted to save it with a stalker and an additional pylon. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote: I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion The problem is you are getting proxied every single fucking game, it ain't funny at all. And even when I countered it quite well, losing only a bunch of scv (because you can't avoid it) you can still lose the game because you are at an even state. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On November 15 2013 01:06 The_Darkness wrote: Just curious, if you 1rax fast expand into three rax and scout for proxies with an SCV, and build a bunker when you find the proxied stargate, how does it work out? I forget the game but I seem to recall alive on Belshire vestige scouting the stargate and stopping it despite the fact the Protoss attempted to save it with a stalker and an additional pylon. You need the protoss to put the proxy in an obvious location and being lucky to scout it fast. But yeah that's what I do but with rax expand you'll have enough marines to zone out the oracle anyway. | ||
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AidoS
71 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote: I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 01:06 The_Darkness wrote: Just curious, if you 1rax fast expand into three rax and scout for proxies with an SCV, and build a bunker when you find the proxied stargate, how does it work out? I forget the game but I seem to recall alive on Belshire vestige scouting the stargate and stopping it despite the fact the Protoss attempted to save it with a stalker and an additional pylon. Depends where the proxy is. If Protoss proxies the Stargate on one of Bel'shir thirds and you find it right away, you can unpower it with a Bunker. If it's further than that, you can't (if only because you will most likely see where the Stargate is too late). | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
On November 15 2013 01:06 The_Darkness wrote: Just curious, if you 1rax fast expand into three rax and scout for proxies with an SCV, and build a bunker when you find the proxied stargate, how does it work out? I forget the game but I seem to recall alive on Belshire vestige scouting the stargate and stopping it despite the fact the Protoss attempted to save it with a stalker and an additional pylon. You assume you find the proxied stargate. You also assume that your 1 rax expand is going against a proxy stargate. Heaven forbid it was blink, or DTs. Where would you build the bunker? In your mineral line? At your front? If it is in the mineral line, what is preventing toss from breaking the front wall with a zealot and or stalker and or mothership core? How many marines can you get that fast? It takes 3 marines to kill MSC, I believe 5 marines to kill MSC, and 4 marines to kill a stalker if it is just sitting there taking damage. Maybe another 3 for the odd zealot. | ||
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10bulgares
352 Posts
On November 15 2013 00:25 FirstGear wrote: I'm actually really enjoying merged air and mech upgrades late game. Makes my compositions way more interesting and my transitions much smoother. Wow a post with some report from experience! On a related note, I haven't seen any report from experience from a protoss or terran or zerg that signals the new oracle as being a considerably bigger threat than the ancient. From the streams I have watched, I have seen nothing like it except in PvP, when one of them is all-in, countering with an oracle seems decidedly more powerful than before as the oracle chases the probes much more efficiently. It looked also as if the widow mine nerf does a difference in TvZ (as expected) and I have watched some good protoss ownage with burrowed roaches. Some people are trying hellbat stuff in PvT or various mech inclusions in TvZ. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote: I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion Regarding your comment about Maru. You really think one of the best terrans in the world doesn't know about ghosts? His heavy aggression style needs him to be constantly producing marines, marauders and medivacs to keep trading with the Protoss. If he tries to transition to ghosts too early, he just gets killed I'm the transition. It is like muta ling bling against 4M, all the zeros know if they get Ultras out, they will nullify the mines. But the problem is getting enough breathing room to make that transition while keeping your fourth. In Maru's case, he NEEDs to keep dropping so the Protoss just doesn't gather his AoE death ball and march across the map. With your comment about Maru, it seems like you don't have a deep understand either. It is a conscious decision not to use ghosts. It is like saying after JD loses to 4M with muta ling bling that if he only had 4-5 ultras to tank the mines! he would have won. No shit... Units (especially tier 3) don't simply appear out of thin air. You sacrifice your standing army to get them, and this allows your opponent to hit a timing. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
If the protoss race idea could be translated for the other 2 races entirely then i feel like we would have a GREAT game. Right now its just painful to play against protoss sometimes I feel like just leaving when its TvP because of the ridiculousness | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 15 2013 01:18 10bulgares wrote: Wow a post with some report from experience! On a related note, I haven't seen any report from experience from a protoss or terran or zerg that signals the new oracle as being a considerably bigger threat than the ancient. From the streams I have watched, I have seen nothing like it except in PvP, when one of them is all-in, countering with an oracle seems decidedly more powerful than before as the oracle chases the probes much more efficiently. It looked also as if the widow mine nerf does a difference in TvZ (as expected) and I have watched some good protoss ownage with burrowed roaches. Some people are trying hellbat stuff in PvT or various mech inclusions in TvZ. Well, you must have been closing your eyes half of the time you read then. As for streams, watch ForGG's one and you may even read first-hand his thoughts on it (that is to say, if you see him typing it, because he has the profanity filter). | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On November 15 2013 01:01 ffadicted wrote: I'm not saying you'll always be able to get 100% scouting every game. AT the end of the day, nobody is going to win every single game. You really are just going to lose some games to unscouted proxies where you misread your opponent, and I think that's ok... Pros still lose to unscouted 8-9 pools in PvZ because of build orders and etc etc (see nani vs. soulkey), stuff like this just happens in sc2... I think as long as scouted proxies can be properly dealt with, it's fine. I'm not 100% convinced scouted proxy oracles give no disadvantage to the toss and/or just can't be dealt with when reacting properly. There are definitely ways to answer (widow mines, more marines, turrets+WM when moving out, etc). I just don't like seeing comments that make no sense like terran can't scout anything ever and dies to anything they can't see and "that isn't fair", or terran can't be aggressive all game long against toss and just has to sit in base and wait to die, etc etc. Heavy aggression styles like Maru plays are still extremely strong against toss. I put money on Maru winning WCS S3 finals if he knew what a ghost was back then lol Things like this show either heavy bias, or just complete lack of understanding on how the matchup works. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not), but this thread is littered with ill-thought out, angry posts that mostly don't make too much sense. Very hard to have good discussion What's funny is that we think about the same about you. Your lack of understanding of the MU, especially early game makes it incredibly hard to have a discussion. Your entire argument is basically saying, well, shit happens. That sucks! You realize that while it's very possible to open up a build that has enough marines to defend a proxy oracle. Except that means not scouting (aka the thing you say that Terrans don't do? - like come on) and getting killed by any one of the many many all in's or "pressures" that can out right kill a Terran. You know what it takes to prevent a Protoss from dying in the first 10 minutes of the game? a MSC with 100 energy and some sentries. That is literally it. You can even substitute sentries to get a few more army units. The response for Protoss against any Terran aggression is exactly the same in HoTS. Whereas if you meet up against proxy oracle, in-base oracle, blink stalker, 2 base blink stalker, Tails DT drop, stalker/stalker/core pressure, stargate voidray all in, the responses for each are so fucking different that if you don't scout and respond properly, you're dead. If you over-extend in your defense, you're dead cause the Protoss is going to just expand behind it. If you can't understand that, then you don't understand why EVERY Terran is complaining about this. I doubt anyone that's frequenting this topic is like YEAH WE WANNA DEFEND EVERY ALL IN WITHOUT MAKING SHIT OR SCOUTING AND JUST A MOVE STIM. To even think that Maru if he went ghosts would've won, means you don't have any understanding of his style beyond a basic bronze level of LOL AGGRESSION. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On November 15 2013 01:22 TheDwf wrote: Well, you must have been closing your eyes half of the time you read then. As for streams, watch ForGG's one and you may even read first-hand his thoughts on it (that is to say, if you see him typing it, because he has the profanity filter). Or Bomber Or sOs Or basically every Terran on the Korean equivalent of TL This is the equivalent of someone just putting their fingers in their years and yelling lalalala | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On November 15 2013 01:10 Plansix wrote: Naniwai lost to 2 nine pools, because he hates scouting. Demuslim is know for not doing robust scouting and he gets rocked because of it. Scouting is king and information is worth the price of one to three SCV. Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 15 2013 01:28 vthree wrote: Except if you are Protoss, you can just scout with your first probe and the nexus cannon will keep you safe from everything else until 10 mins. It is funny to hear Protoss say that faster turrets would take away DT play which is fun. When the MSC pretty much kills ALL early pressure from Terran. If Blizzard wants more diverse game play, the first thing they have to look at is the nexus cannon. I agree that Protoss needs something to help with base defense in the early and mid game. But the Nexus cannon in the current state is just too big of a catch all. It also allows much faster third from Protoss with very little army so Protoss can Tech+ early third with very little risk. The nexus cannon will never save you from a 9 pool unless you can time travel. It might help against a roach all on, but they could just ignore it and run by. The world where the nexus cannon saves Protoss from everything is the same world where scans allow the Terran perfect scouting. | ||
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FroZeN.Broken
Sweden47 Posts
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