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On November 14 2013 11:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Its going to be so nuts for Homestory Cup to be happening immediately after the patch--given how much goofiness happens at HSC to begin with, I'm anticipating some truly crazy builds and strats since people will still be figuring stuff out. Should be fun.
I hope we see the return of:
![[image loading]](http://i51.tinypic.com/2dglufr.jpg)
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On November 14 2013 14:01 hansonslee wrote:
As for the TvP, I remember watching Innovation v. Trap and Ryung vs. Dear last night on GSTL. Innovation has been using widow mines to prepare for any oracles and harassment purposes (when Innovation scouted that Trap had no stargates). Ryung, on the other hand, has been using the reaper aggressively and some marines to control the map.
Terran are actively trying to figure out what to do with the meta, so give this patch some time, okay?
But people do not want to make turrets, scout with reapers or use widow mines. They want to be greedy as much as possible and its good they will be punished for it.
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On November 14 2013 13:39 weikor wrote:
whats with all the whining. The patch has been out ffor 3 days and there are so many tears in this thread I might have to start building an arc.
It took protoss MONTHS to figure out how to beat a 1 /1 /1 untill people stopped doing it. At the beginning of HOTS terran was mowing down everything with hellbats.
Just because bomber has some troubles in tvp doesnt mean the matchup is broken. EVERY player has a matchup he is weak at.
There is a reason behind all those changes - and blizzard has been doing a damn good job of balancing in HoTs, they have their reasons for this patch - and you can trust that they will nerf things if they dont like them.
>>> YOU <<< have NO idea why a .2 increase in siege tank attack speed is better than a 0.3 attack speed increase. Just the fact that blizzard finetuned that change by such a little margin has to mean they did extensive testing with it.
Dude are you for real? TvP and PvT hasn't changed much, if at all since the WOL. It's still the same Terran Bio Ball vs Protoss Deathball. What is there to figure out? The openings are different because of Oracles and Reapers, but they all converge back to once place. And as a matter of fact, Terrans can't even apply pressure now without sacrificing half their army in the early game because of Photon Overcharge. I remember every once in a while, top Terrans would do a mass Marine push to snipe off a quick Nexus. That rarely happens now. Now, Terrans rely on doom drops with Vin Diesel Ships, and they're called doom drops for a reason. If it works, the opponent is doomed. If it doesn't work, you're doomed because your whole army is potentially out of position.
If it goes to a super late game, the chances of a Terran beat a Protoss are slim to none imo. Protoss can always bank the energy for Storms and spam it down. Terran has to micro like hell to kite their Vikings, Snipe (which I still can't do), and/or EMP while Stimming and spreading their army at the same time. Why do you think a lot of top Korean Terrans are not using Ghosts as much anymore? It's because they're costly and take a long time to build, and are difficult to deal with against High Templars sometimes. Plus it slows down the spreading of units.
The more I read and think about it, the more I feel that Protoss is fundamentally flawed. But when Protoss is so IMBA like it currently is, then what's left for us Terran players? It's like how in TvZ, it went from an evenly balanced match up to a Patch Zerg phase because of the Queen Range and energy buff. I think right now, we're in a Patch Protoss phase.
On November 14 2013 14:17 Sufinsil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 14:01 hansonslee wrote:
As for the TvP, I remember watching Innovation v. Trap and Ryung vs. Dear last night on GSTL. Innovation has been using widow mines to prepare for any oracles and harassment purposes (when Innovation scouted that Trap had no stargates). Ryung, on the other hand, has been using the reaper aggressively and some marines to control the map.
Terran are actively trying to figure out what to do with the meta, so give this patch some time, okay? But people do not want to make turrets, scout with reapers or use widow mines. They want to be greedy as much as possible and its good they will be punished for it.
Why would we want to build Turrets when we don't need static anti air defense?
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1/1/1 is still viable TvP, just build bunkers at their front.
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On November 14 2013 14:28 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:
1/1/1 is still viable TvP, just build bunkers at their front.
What lol, I dont get guys like you, you randomly come into a thread where we are discussing all of these changes and the future of everything based on the changes. And you walk in and go Oh, you can 1/1/1 still.
You remind of the I like turtles kid.
Even if it really was still viable, do you think we just want to all-in every single game vs Toss? No Thanks,
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On November 14 2013 14:17 Sufinsil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 14:01 hansonslee wrote:
As for the TvP, I remember watching Innovation v. Trap and Ryung vs. Dear last night on GSTL. Innovation has been using widow mines to prepare for any oracles and harassment purposes (when Innovation scouted that Trap had no stargates). Ryung, on the other hand, has been using the reaper aggressively and some marines to control the map.
Terran are actively trying to figure out what to do with the meta, so give this patch some time, okay? But people do not want to make turrets, scout with reapers or use widow mines. They want to be greedy as much as possible and its good they will be punished for it.
This just shows your ignorance at the matchup. Read through even some of this topic by the smart posters and you can see that's not at all what Terrans are complaining about.
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On November 14 2013 14:42 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 14:28 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:
1/1/1 is still viable TvP, just build bunkers at their front. What lol, I dont get guys like you, you randomly come into a thread where we are discussing all of these changes and the future of everything based on the changes. And you walk in and go Oh, you can 1/1/1 still. You remind of the I like turtles kid. Even if it really was still viable, do you think we just want to all-in every single game vs Toss? No Thanks,
You remind me of a troll.
1/1/1 is a good build.
If you want to play passive and neglect Terrans strength (the early game) go for it, chances are you won't get far though considering how powerful Toss's mid game and late game is.
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pls delete, this was not a productive post, sry. bad Krazy...posting at 245am
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On November 14 2013 14:01 hansonslee wrote:
As for the TvP, I remember watching Innovation v. Trap and Ryung vs. Dear last night on GSTL. Innovation has been using widow mines to prepare for any oracles and harassment purposes (when Innovation scouted that Trap had no stargates). Ryung, on the other hand, has been using the reaper aggressively and some marines to control the map.
Terran are actively trying to figure out what to do with the meta, so give this patch some time, okay?
What do you mean by figuring out meta? TvP is the same for months, this patch didn't introduce anything new that protoss couldn't do before so that we need to give it time.. proxy oracle existed and was used a lot even before this latest patch, Blizzard only made them even stronger now.
And the stupidest thing is they claim they want to make them more viable in the late game. Oracle isn't battlecruiser or broodlord or carrier that you can straight up buff them to make them better in the late game. They are early game unit and that buff will mostly reflect in the early game when terran defenses are weakest.
If they really wanted late game buff they could have added speed increase upgrade at the fleet beacon or something like that.
Although I don't see why protoss couldn't simply make 1 stargate in the late game (4 bases, 8 geysers etc.) and then harass with the oracle. You could send zealots in the mineral line, snipe the turret and fly in with the oracle.
If anything, I would say we need to give more time to protoss to figure out how to use oracle better, not just buff it straight up.
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On November 14 2013 16:36 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 14:42 XXXSmOke wrote:On November 14 2013 14:28 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:
1/1/1 is still viable TvP, just build bunkers at their front. What lol, I dont get guys like you, you randomly come into a thread where we are discussing all of these changes and the future of everything based on the changes. And you walk in and go Oh, you can 1/1/1 still. You remind of the I like turtles kid. Even if it really was still viable, do you think we just want to all-in every single game vs Toss? No Thanks, You remind me of a troll. 1/1/1 is a good build. If you want to play passive and neglect Terrans strength (the early game) go for it, chances are you won't get far though considering how powerful Toss's mid game and late game is.
Terrans' early game WAS powerful, but it's not anymore... Remember? Depot before Barracks, then Barracks build time increased, no time-warp/photon overcharge, shitty immortal-range, only detection from cannons and robo... Sure has taken beating after beating. Man, 2011.. good times. I miss Puma lol
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On November 14 2013 13:39 weikor wrote:
whats with all the whining. The patch has been out ffor 3 days and there are so many tears in this thread I might have to start building an arc.
It took protoss MONTHS to figure out how to beat a 1 /1 /1 untill people stopped doing it. At the beginning of HOTS terran was mowing down everything with hellbats.
Just because bomber has some troubles in tvp doesnt mean the matchup is broken. EVERY player has a matchup he is weak at.
Protoss was dying for months to 1/1/1 until blizzard buffed immortals,nerfed rax build time etc. Figuring out would mean they found a way to beat 1/1/1 without Blizzard's help. And that would mean that 1/1/1/ was not broken at all. But it was and it was not possible to figure it out unless the patch came through.
Who figured out infestor-broodlord in the end of WoL? Nobody, infestors got nerfed.
And yes, it may be true that Bomber just has terrible TvP but the problem is that I can't name 1 terran that does well against top level protoss like Dear these days.
Also, protoss players started winning tournaments, they are in better shape than ever.
And then Blizzard buffs them. It makes no sense.
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On November 14 2013 16:49 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 13:39 weikor wrote:
whats with all the whining. The patch has been out ffor 3 days and there are so many tears in this thread I might have to start building an arc.
It took protoss MONTHS to figure out how to beat a 1 /1 /1 untill people stopped doing it. At the beginning of HOTS terran was mowing down everything with hellbats.
Just because bomber has some troubles in tvp doesnt mean the matchup is broken. EVERY player has a matchup he is weak at. Protoss was dying for months to 1/1/1 until blizzard buffed immortals,nerfed rax build time etc. And yes, it may be true that Bomber just has terrible TvP but the problem is that I can't name 1 terran that does well against top level protoss like Dear these days. Also, protoss players started winning tournaments, they are in better shape than ever. And then Blizzard buffs them. It makes no sense.
Exactly! Funny how many people think Protosses came up with solutions to 1/1/1 on their own, when they clearly didn't  Same could be applied to the queen patch... Back then (pre-patch) it was as if Zergs refused to build more than 3 queens for creep and defense 
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On November 14 2013 16:36 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 14:42 XXXSmOke wrote:On November 14 2013 14:28 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:
1/1/1 is still viable TvP, just build bunkers at their front. What lol, I dont get guys like you, you randomly come into a thread where we are discussing all of these changes and the future of everything based on the changes. And you walk in and go Oh, you can 1/1/1 still. You remind of the I like turtles kid. Even if it really was still viable, do you think we just want to all-in every single game vs Toss? No Thanks, You remind me of a troll. 1/1/1 is a good build. If you want to play passive and neglect Terrans strength (the early game) go for it, chances are you won't get far though considering how powerful Toss's mid game and late game is.
Did your client neglected to update the game? We are now in Hots with MSC, nexus canon, and also carry some changes from WoL (immortal buff, rax nerf, multiple bunker nerfs etc)
How many 1/1/1s did you see on high level TvP recently?
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On November 14 2013 16:36 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 14:42 XXXSmOke wrote:On November 14 2013 14:28 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:
1/1/1 is still viable TvP, just build bunkers at their front. What lol, I dont get guys like you, you randomly come into a thread where we are discussing all of these changes and the future of everything based on the changes. And you walk in and go Oh, you can 1/1/1 still. You remind of the I like turtles kid. Even if it really was still viable, do you think we just want to all-in every single game vs Toss? No Thanks, You remind me of a troll. 1/1/1 is a good build. If you want to play passive and neglect Terrans strength (the early game) go for it, chances are you won't get far though considering how powerful Toss's mid game and late game is.
Lol, early game in TvP is so P dominated it is not funny. MSC, Oracles, blink all-ins, immortal all-ins, stalkers kiting marines if they catch them mid game. And Nexus Cannon shut down any aggression from Ts at least until stim and medivacs are out. Only then can the terran even THINK about applying pressure.
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before the patch, there was a lot of untapped potential in mass reapers builds vP. Gumiho vs Avenge (GSTL all-star) showed how you could keep toss pinned back on the new maps (Yeonsu, Polar Night, Frost & Star Station). you could threaten counter-attacks vs gateway all-ins, burn the mothership core energy and force gateway units before medivacs. It was similar to how hellion/banshee builds worked vP in WoL. but now oracles just say "no" to any harass on the ground. hellions are the only terran unit that can outrun an oracle - but if you use your barracks to build a reactor, you won't have 6 marines in time for an oracle. I have exhausted every avenue of aggression vP. reaper & drop plays get hard-countered by stargate. bio pressure gets stopped by photon overcharge. early game TvP is laughably one-sided with zero room for terrans to "adapt".
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Rgiht now protoss players are quite predictable (hello oracle) but its gonna get ugly when things go back to normal and P start choosing from the 50 chapter long book of builds. The threat of the oracle and proxy/hiding ability of buildings is very damaging in itself. TvZ will stay the same, im pretty sure of it. Maybe it will be common with a later third and a bit more aggression from terran, perhaps more banshee openings aswell, but I cant see anyone playing bio/tank/mine like blizzard intended.
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On November 14 2013 14:17 Sufinsil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 14:01 hansonslee wrote:
As for the TvP, I remember watching Innovation v. Trap and Ryung vs. Dear last night on GSTL. Innovation has been using widow mines to prepare for any oracles and harassment purposes (when Innovation scouted that Trap had no stargates). Ryung, on the other hand, has been using the reaper aggressively and some marines to control the map.
Terran are actively trying to figure out what to do with the meta, so give this patch some time, okay? But people do not want to make turrets, scout with reapers or use widow mines. They want to be greedy as much as possible and its good they will be punished for it.
make turrets and widow mines, when a blink allin hits you and you are just dead, because you don´t have the army needed to defend. To get an actual scout of the tech with a reaper requires quite some luck. In more cases, the reaper gets intercepted by MSC and a stalker and dies.
If oracle would be the only viable opening in the matchup, I wouldn´t see a problem. But if you invest in heavily defending it and it doesn´t come, you are either dying right the second to another allin or you are very far behind, because you did nothing to stop protoss from playing greedy.
That a protoss player is accusing terrans for greedy play is quite a joke in itself.
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On November 14 2013 18:54 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 14:17 Sufinsil wrote:On November 14 2013 14:01 hansonslee wrote:
As for the TvP, I remember watching Innovation v. Trap and Ryung vs. Dear last night on GSTL. Innovation has been using widow mines to prepare for any oracles and harassment purposes (when Innovation scouted that Trap had no stargates). Ryung, on the other hand, has been using the reaper aggressively and some marines to control the map.
Terran are actively trying to figure out what to do with the meta, so give this patch some time, okay? But people do not want to make turrets, scout with reapers or use widow mines. They want to be greedy as much as possible and its good they will be punished for it. make turrets and widow mines, when a blink allin hits you and you are just dead, because you don´t have the army needed to defend. To get an actual scout of the tech with a reaper requires quite some luck. In more cases, the reaper gets intercepted by MSC and a stalker and dies.
I remember every zerg ever making this argument and I'm pretty sure that you were amongst those who said things amontgst the lines of "just sac an overlord you greedy bastards".
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On November 14 2013 19:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 18:54 TeeTS wrote:On November 14 2013 14:17 Sufinsil wrote:On November 14 2013 14:01 hansonslee wrote:
As for the TvP, I remember watching Innovation v. Trap and Ryung vs. Dear last night on GSTL. Innovation has been using widow mines to prepare for any oracles and harassment purposes (when Innovation scouted that Trap had no stargates). Ryung, on the other hand, has been using the reaper aggressively and some marines to control the map.
Terran are actively trying to figure out what to do with the meta, so give this patch some time, okay? But people do not want to make turrets, scout with reapers or use widow mines. They want to be greedy as much as possible and its good they will be punished for it. make turrets and widow mines, when a blink allin hits you and you are just dead, because you don´t have the army needed to defend. To get an actual scout of the tech with a reaper requires quite some luck. In more cases, the reaper gets intercepted by MSC and a stalker and dies. I remember every zerg ever making this argument and I'm pretty sure that you were amongst those who said things amontgst the lines of "just sac an overlord you greedy bastards".
oh if i had overlords to get a secure fullbase scout for the cost of 100 or at max 200 minerals, I would use them for sure!
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On November 14 2013 16:49 Qwerty85 wrote:
Also, protoss players started winning tournaments, they are in better shape than ever.
And then Blizzard buffs them. It makes no sense.
This is just funny. Are you saying that because Protoss won the most recent big tournaments it doesn't deserve tweaks? Changes to the oracle make sense but I think it didn't get the correct ones. I think it still needs another patch where Blizz exchanges some of its hp for shield, I'd even chip in the speed. I don't think the speed increase does very much except now it can run away from mutas. A little more sight range would be a lot better because the speed doesn't help a lot if you fly in range of vikings, abduct or feedback. It's all range 9, oracle got a sight range of 10 and its now crossing that distance quicker than before, so I'm not sure it truly helps.
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EPT
