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On November 13 2013 02:07 OneSpeed wrote:
Haha this is such a sad story for Terran.
They removed new Warhound
They nerfed hellbats
They nerfed widow mines
Seems like we're facing another year of WoL where Terrans nerfed to oblivion.
well the hellbat nerf wasnt really a nerf .. just an additional cost .. and hellbat tvt was godawful .. i dont know people who actually liked it
and didnt they say that warhound has overlapping roles with marauders
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On November 13 2013 02:07 OneSpeed wrote:
Haha this is such a sad story for Terran.
They removed new Warhound
They nerfed hellbats
They nerfed widow mines
Seems like we're facing another year of WoL where Terrans nerfed to oblivion.
I remember in the days of old, when Heart of The Swarm beta was first revealed to us, the prophet Avilo foretold of the nerfs...he said every new terran feature would either be nerfed into the ground or removed from the game...BUT WE DID NOT LISTEN!!
Only Medivac Boost left to go....
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On November 13 2013 02:01 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I'm sorry guys I know it seems like I'm trolling I'm just freaking out because I literally Hate Mech If I wanted to play Mech style play I would just play protoss it has a lot of the same mechanics get the composition you need to kill your opponent and just Kill Kill. I like to play fast paced all over the map trading picking my opponent apart with better mechanics and smarter play. Well now I feel like the walls are closing in on this style and now they want slow pushes and Turtle tank comps LOL
Its stupid with this buff to tanks it hurts my TvT and with the Nerf to widow mine it hurts my TvZ and the Buff to Oracles makes holding the proxy oracle play even harder which hurts my TvP why shouldn't I be dramatic?
They don't want bio mine to be so absurdly efficient AND fast. That's the problem.
Tanks make you a little slower, but you can still very effectively harass and play quickly with bio-mine. You'll just need to meet up with tanks for a full-engage.
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On November 13 2013 02:11 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 02:07 OneSpeed wrote:
Haha this is such a sad story for Terran.
They removed new Warhound
They nerfed hellbats
They nerfed widow mines
Seems like we're facing another year of WoL where Terrans nerfed to oblivion. well the hellbat nerf wasnt really a nerf .. just an additional cost .. and hellbat tvt was godawful .. i dont know people who actually liked it and didnt they say that warhound has overlapping roles with marauders
it´s not only an additional cost, but a delay that makes the unit absolute unpractical unless you go full mech.
On November 13 2013 02:13 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 02:07 OneSpeed wrote:
Haha this is such a sad story for Terran.
They removed new Warhound
They nerfed hellbats
They nerfed widow mines
Seems like we're facing another year of WoL where Terrans nerfed to oblivion. I remember in the days of old, when Heart of The Swarm beta was first revealed to us, the prophet Avilo foretold of the nerfs...he said every new terran feature would either be nerfed into the ground or removed from the game...BUT WE DID NOT LISTEN!! Only Medivac Boost left to go....
Well Medivac boost will stay in the game. Zergs and Protoss are very fine dealing with them these days. But aside from that, we are now back to WoL Terran.  glorious days incoming.
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On November 13 2013 02:01 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Its stupid with this buff to tanks it hurts my TvT and with the Nerf to widow mine it hurts my TvZ and the Buff to Oracles makes holding the proxy oracle play even harder which hurts my TvP why shouldn't I be dramatic?
Word. If i wanted to play a stale-two-siege-lines-boring-ass-TvT i would go play BW, why bring this shit to sc2.
TvZ with nerfed widow mines would be retarded since zerg will just rofl stomp any terran with mass mutas.
TvP is already a joke so why not make it a sick joke with a flying units that shoots all your army and workers by the 5:10 minute mark.
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4713 Posts
On November 13 2013 02:07 OneSpeed wrote:
Haha this is such a sad story for Terran.
They removed new Warhound
They nerfed hellbats
They nerfed widow mines
Seems like we're facing another year of WoL where Terrans nerfed to oblivion.
Oh please, don't even bring the Warhound into this discussion. That was the epitome of bad design, cheep, fast, study and doing extremely large damage. It had no clear weakness but it had several strengths. I also overlapped in design with the marauder.
No we didn't need the Warhound, I'm a Terran and I bless the day they decided withdraw the Warhound, you should do the same.
To be honest terran doesn't need any more units, we just need all or most of all of them to be more viable.
On a strategic sense we need to actually have viable all-ins and stronger pressures outside of TvT. And the need for these is simple, currently terran is the least flexible race in the sense of weather it can play hyper aggressive/cheesy, middle ground/pressure or very greedy.
In TvZ the only great all-in we have left is the 11/11, and it pales in comparison to the number of strong and viable all-ins zerg has, the number of pressures we have is moderate to low, but its ok because zerg doesn't have many pressures either. And both can be greedy, but, this lack of choices means that more often then not terran has to play greedy.
In TvP its even worst, we have no all-in and all our pressures are easily dealt with, while protoss has several viable and damaging pressures, that can transform into all-ins, as well as several very potent all-ins, on top of their ability to play greedy.
This lack of strategic diversity is one problem.
The other problem is the lack of unit diversity, again, bio + support is the only real viable way to play outside of TvT.
If you want a truly fun game, you need to fix those two problems. And you don't fix those buy introducing stupidly OP, boring a-move units, you do it by reworking the viability of the already existing ones if they aren't showing viability, which, in our case, is the bottom line.
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On November 13 2013 02:01 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I'm sorry guys I know it seems like I'm trolling I'm just freaking out because I literally Hate Mech If I wanted to play Mech style play I would just play protoss it has a lot of the same mechanics get the composition you need to kill your opponent and just Kill Kill. I like to play fast paced all over the map trading picking my opponent apart with better mechanics and smarter play. Well now I feel like the walls are closing in on this style and now they want slow pushes and Turtle tank comps LOL
Its stupid with this buff to tanks it hurts my TvT and with the Nerf to widow mine it hurts my TvZ and the Buff to Oracles makes holding the proxy oracle play even harder which hurts my TvP why shouldn't I be dramatic?
Protoss "mech" armies don't really play anything like Terran mech. The main things in PvT when it comes to managing a Protoss army built primarily around robo tech are:
1.) Make sure Zealots are in the front and Colossi are in the back, with Immortal and Sentries in the middle and Stalkers just behind the Zealots. If you're playing defensive and holding a position set up a concave, otherwise keep your army together and make sure Stalkers don't move in front out of position.
2.) Hit good forcefields and/or timewarps to split your opponents' forces, prevent kiting, and trap them in the sweet spot where Colossi can hit them but they can't return fire. Keep guardian shield up over key units.
3.) Blink stalkers forward enough to focus down vikings and/or medivacs, but not so out of position they get shredded by bio.
4.) Dance Colossi out of viking range when they get low health. You want to be baiting Vikings into moving into Stalker range, without moving the Colossi back so far that they stop hitting the terran bio.
5.) If its late enough in the game that Templars have been added in, hit good storms, spread to avoid EMPs, and feedback medivacs and ghosts.
6.) Keep up with reinforcements via warp gate so you can maintain your buffer of gateway units and keep your colossi alive.
In other words, Protoss play is mainly about engagement management, keeping your units in the right places while you move around, occasionally pulling back Colossi, and casting spells well and effectively using abilities like blink.
This is really nothing like siege tank based Terran play, which is much more about meticulous space control, covering your vulnerabilities while sieging and unsieging, and making effective use of terrain. Understand when you can afford to simply push forward, and when you need to be leapfrogging tanks or distracting the enemy elsewhere on the map. Putting yourself in a position where you can safely send reinforcements across the map in time to make an impact without losing them along the way. The whole spellcasting/activated abilities angle that is so huge in Protoss play is basically nonexistent with Tank play, while meching Terrans have to deal with logistical challenges and questions of space control and timing that simply don't matter that much with Protoss armies.
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I like the fact that they are patching this game.. Way too little of that! But the oracle buff was SO unnecessairy.. God damnit I know everyone feels this way 
Protoss is already twice as represented in grand master and YES that ofcourse means something! No need to buff that ffs.. Terran, who btw has NO cheese in this matchup gets even stronger cheese against them T_T How good will oracle be now that you can outmicro marines? Allready one oracle can kill 5 marines on its own which is enough to win the game more or less
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On November 13 2013 02:08 Operations wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 02:04 Ghanburighan wrote:
Rule of thumb in this thread, don't respond to Plansix (the jury's out on Crownlol, but probably the same). They are just stirring up stuff. Just look at the number of times they've posted in this thread - if they had something to contribute, they would have said it already. Instead they are just flame-baiting responses and enjoying the show. plansix is a diamond protoss, any average street monkey can achieve that
Woah woah woah, I was a diamond Protoss, but that was a while ago.(stupid mortgage) My play is much more laid back now a days. And mocking people freaking out about a patch they have barely played and claiming the world is going to end. I did the same thing when the dota 2 patch came out. The discussion alway goes from the patch itself to how the world of Terran is over.
And to be fair, I am not the only one mocking the whiners. And we are all pointing out that the tank is pretty dope.
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Horrible patch for T. I dont know are they out of ideas or what, but this doesnt do shit than just screws up TvZ and gives oracle more usage to play in a "cheesy" manner. Great blizz.
I have no idea how the mech upgrades gonna play out, but mostly its just gonna effect tvt and make mech lil bit stronger and allow air transitions.
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On November 13 2013 02:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 02:01 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I'm sorry guys I know it seems like I'm trolling I'm just freaking out because I literally Hate Mech If I wanted to play Mech style play I would just play protoss it has a lot of the same mechanics get the composition you need to kill your opponent and just Kill Kill. I like to play fast paced all over the map trading picking my opponent apart with better mechanics and smarter play. Well now I feel like the walls are closing in on this style and now they want slow pushes and Turtle tank comps LOL
Its stupid with this buff to tanks it hurts my TvT and with the Nerf to widow mine it hurts my TvZ and the Buff to Oracles makes holding the proxy oracle play even harder which hurts my TvP why shouldn't I be dramatic? Protoss "mech" armies don't really play anything like Terran mech. The main things in PvT when it comes to managing a Protoss army built primarily around robo tech are: 1.) Make sure Zealots are in the front and Colossi are in the back, with Immortal and Sentries in the middle and Stalkers just behind the Zealots. If you're playing defensive and holding a position set up a concave, otherwise keep your army together and make sure Stalkers don't move in front out of position. 2.) Hit good forcefields and/or timewarps to split your opponents' forces, prevent kiting, and trap them in the sweet spot where Colossi can hit them but they can't return fire. Keep guardian shield up over key units. 3.) Blink stalkers forward enough to focus down vikings and/or medivacs, but not so out of position they get shredded by bio. 4.) Dance Colossi out of viking range when they get low health. You want to be baiting Vikings into moving into Stalker range, without moving the Colossi back so far that they stop hitting the terran bio. 5.) If its late enough in the game that Templars have been added in, hit good storms, spread to avoid EMPs, and feedback medivacs and ghosts. 6.) Keep up with reinforcements via warp gate so you can maintain your buffer of gateway units and keep your colossi alive. In other words, Protoss play is mainly about engagement management, keeping your units in the right places while you move around, occasionally pulling back Colossi, and casting spells well and effectively using abilities like blink. This is really nothing like siege tank based Terran play, which is much more about meticulous space control, covering your vulnerabilities while sieging and unsieging, and making effective use of terrain. Understand when you can afford to simply push forward, and when you need to be leapfrogging tanks or distracting the enemy elsewhere on the map. Putting yourself in a position where you can safely send reinforcements across the map in time to make an impact without losing them along the way. The whole spellcasting/activated abilities angle that is so huge in Protoss play is basically nonexistent with Tank play, while meching Terrans have to deal with logistical challenges and questions of space control and timing that simply don't matter that much with Protoss armies.
Yea and? I get that engagements are different but both are essentially trying to stall to get the composition they need I didn't mention how to take engagements with either................................. The idea of both of them as far as composition and style as far as the way they get there stays the same............... You stay safe in the early game macro up get the units and the unit count you need and push out. How you push out might be different and DEFINITELY at different speeds which makes Terran Mech weaker and also the fact that they don't have a MSC to PO main bases when they get dropped or Transport their entire army back to the main base is a HUGE factor and will play into the game in higher leagues.............
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People don't seem to understand how much the siege tank attack speed buff snowballs once the tank count gets high enough.
Edit: btw its not like marines or turrets cant stop oracles lol, its just a speed boost, sure it might get to the base a LITTLE bit faster but by then you should probably have like 10 marines unless you're MKP level of greedy
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Terran nerfing will never end..
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On November 13 2013 02:27 DinosaurPoop wrote:
People don't seem to understand how much the siege tank attack speed buff snowballs once the tank count gets high enough.
Edit: btw its not like marines or turrets cant stop oracles lol, its just a speed boost, sure it might get to the base a LITTLE bit faster but by then you should probably have like 10 marines unless you're MKP level of greedy
See how many marines you can get out with a normal 1 Rax Reactor Reaper Expand which is supposedly safer way to expand with a proxy oracle hitting your base at 5:08-5:10 then come back and talk.
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Even a non proxied oracle is going to be insanely hard to deal with. I can see it being very hard to deal with in PvP too without phoenix or blink (mind you blink won't be enough to kill the oracle).
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On November 13 2013 02:27 DinosaurPoop wrote:
People don't seem to understand how much the siege tank attack speed buff snowballs once the tank count gets high enough.
Edit: btw its not like marines or turrets cant stop oracles lol, its just a speed boost, sure it might get to the base a LITTLE bit faster but by then you should probably have like 10 marines unless you're MKP level of greedy
Explain me WHY please, no one has given me a proper explaination about it. For me there are absolutly no snowball effect, If you have 20 tanks, it will only have the same DPS of 21 tanks ? That's it.
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On November 13 2013 02:27 DinosaurPoop wrote:
People don't seem to understand how much the siege tank attack speed buff snowballs once the tank count gets high enough.
Edit: btw its not like marines or turrets cant stop oracles lol, its just a speed boost, sure it might get to the base a LITTLE bit faster but by then you should probably have like 10 marines unless you're MKP level of greedy
Not to mention it moves faster between the bases, is literally IMPOSSIBLE to kill as long as the Protoss player is not going AFK.
With the speed the Oracle have ATM it should literally be impossible to not pick 5-6 SCV/Marines combined. Marines spawning, SCVs at Gases, etc.
Combine this with Terran having to make Turrets that adds nothing for the mid/late game aswell. Meanwhile all of this is going on, you are defending against the Ferrari-Oracles you also have to figure out what is going on at Protoss base. Is it transfering to an all in? Is he making 4 Oracles and Gateways? Is he playing greedy? 2x Forges? Colossus? Templars?
The problem with Oracles in their current state is:
Protoss best scenario:
Terran slipped on a Marine production or went for any other build that Reactored Marines -
You straight up instantly win.
Protoss Worst Scenario:
The Oracle does not end up killing a single unit and you transform into a standard macro game since there is NO way for Terran to pressure with enough units to fight Nexus Cannon without leaving the base exposed to the Oracles.
Consider for a moment for this feels for me as a Terran player. It leaves me with almost only a single build to play every game and as long as my opponent does not make the biggest mistakes ever it is impossible for me to win the game before I have atleast 2 medivacs on the field. Meanwhile my opponent have almost an infinitive arsenal of builds too do and all of the have the capacity to win the game for him.
First of all it makes it stale and boring for me to play.
Secondly I feel that it is unfair that my race cannot win during the first 10 minutes, but can die at any second.
The patch did not solve any of this problems with TvP being extremly stale and the Oracle Buff just feel like some kind of prostrating act against me.
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On November 13 2013 02:34 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 02:27 DinosaurPoop wrote:
People don't seem to understand how much the siege tank attack speed buff snowballs once the tank count gets high enough.
Edit: btw its not like marines or turrets cant stop oracles lol, its just a speed boost, sure it might get to the base a LITTLE bit faster but by then you should probably have like 10 marines unless you're MKP level of greedy See how many marines you can get out with a normal 1 Rax Reactor Reaper Expand which is supposedly safer way to expand with a proxy oracle hitting your base at 5:08-5:10 then come back and talk.
ofc you wont hold with a 1 rax reactor reaper expand go gasless if you want to hold proxy oracle
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On November 13 2013 02:38 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 02:27 DinosaurPoop wrote:
People don't seem to understand how much the siege tank attack speed buff snowballs once the tank count gets high enough.
Edit: btw its not like marines or turrets cant stop oracles lol, its just a speed boost, sure it might get to the base a LITTLE bit faster but by then you should probably have like 10 marines unless you're MKP level of greedy Explain me WHY please, no one has given me a proper explaination about it. For me there are absolutly no snowball effect, If you have 20 tanks, it will only have the same DPS of 21 tanks ? That's it.
Because the tanks fire faster, so all the tanks get a second shot sooner. Someone did that math and the attack speed boots equals a second volley against charging banelings, which is twice as much damage as before. But you have to see them at work to get a feel for the change.
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