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On November 13 2013 00:34 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:21 Crownlol wrote:On November 13 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Someone on Battle.net made an interesting example: Mongoose: For those of you who want a concrete example of how the siege tank change could affect things:
Speed of upgraded banelings on creep: 3.84 Range of tanks: 13 with spotting Time banelings need to move 11 distance on creep (past the 2 minimum range of the tank): 2.86 seconds Number of shots pre-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 1 Number of shots post-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 2 Thats just one example, and obviously there are millions of unit interactions more complex than that, but even so it shows at least one case where the buff will definitely be useful in helping Tank viability. Holy shit, actual analysis instead of rampant whining? Although, that's a really interesting analysis. At first glance It looks like the attack speed increase of tanks is negligible (3 vs 2.8 wtf), but in a real-world example, Blizzard has just DOUBLED tank DPS against approaching banelings. That's fucking gigantic. Nice, tanks have doubled the DPS of a sieged tanks against banes coming to kill it. But if the banes don't hit the immobile tank, 0.06 seconds later the DPS is exactly the same as pre-patch. So the only way to make use of it is to have marines stand in the space that banes travel in 0.06 seconds -__-
Or you know, they will kill something, Zerglings and Banelings 0,06 seconds before they manage to deal some damage to the Tanks or Kill Marines. What that guy posted is just one example, there are probably a lot more that will be more significant in time.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 13 2013 00:23 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 23:47 Crownlol wrote:On November 12 2013 23:24 -Celestial- wrote:
This thread...it really is amazing how much a number of Terrans on these forums balance whine. Whine when winrates are good for them, whine when winrates are even, whine when they're evenly represented at tournaments, whine when they're dominating representation at tournaments, whine when they're dominating the tournaments themselves...it never ends! And somehow its still justifiable in all circumstances to whine about other races being OP and always play the victim.
Anyway as for the patch, its ok I guess. The tank buff is nice. Problem is the fundamental problem with Terran still hasn't been addressed though...the marine needs to be nerfed and everything else rebalanced around it. THAT'S when you'll see more diverse options; when the marine isn't a cheap, low-supply, quick to build, catch-all answer to just about everything. Nerf the marine and you can buff probably the majority of the rest of the Terran arsenal; but Blizzard has never wanted to touch the marine for some strange reason. I, too, am shocked at the amount of Terran crybabies. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the Marine, and everyone knows you're right. But can you imagine the tears if they nerfed it? I still just can't get over how Stupid of a comment this is about marines. Lets Recap shall we***ALL INSTANCES WITH NO MICRO ***: 1 Oracle > 5 Marines 1 Stalker > 2 Marines 1 Zealot > 3 Marines 1 Immortal > 4 Marines Archon > Marines Colo > Marines Templar > Marines I know this is kind of a Troll Post but the Comment before was Absolutely backwards I just can't take this kind of ridiculousness ......
If you lose three marines to one zealot it is unlikely that you are good at starcraft
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I hate how people say terran just spam tier 1 units until they win. Good luck playing tvp without vikings or ghosts. Medivacs and mines sure as heck arent tier 1 too. What unit are they meant to spam other than bio? - warhounds were removed, hellbats were nerfed, the other units are gas intensive enough they cant be spammed and tend to be quite slow/immobile.
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On November 12 2013 09:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 09:39 Snusmumriken wrote:On November 12 2013 09:36 r691175002 wrote:So here are the balance numbers they dropped at Blizcon: ![[image loading]](http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7112/8m00.jpg) Who believes them? Its a selfevident truth when the ranking system is made for just this to be the case. When you take a closer look and realize that terran is dwindling from low master up to the point of extinction in gm, you realize that these numbers dont say shit. Stand back folks, the bias is strong with this one. He has developed an immunity to fact and has a strong case of conformation bias.
Dude you really need to learn some more logical fallacies, you're just a broken record. It's true, the sample size is too small to draw true balance from this, but it's still ridiculous these are the numbers that we have.
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On November 13 2013 00:37 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:34 Ghanburighan wrote:On November 13 2013 00:21 Crownlol wrote:On November 13 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Someone on Battle.net made an interesting example: Mongoose: For those of you who want a concrete example of how the siege tank change could affect things:
Speed of upgraded banelings on creep: 3.84 Range of tanks: 13 with spotting Time banelings need to move 11 distance on creep (past the 2 minimum range of the tank): 2.86 seconds Number of shots pre-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 1 Number of shots post-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 2 Thats just one example, and obviously there are millions of unit interactions more complex than that, but even so it shows at least one case where the buff will definitely be useful in helping Tank viability. Holy shit, actual analysis instead of rampant whining? Although, that's a really interesting analysis. At first glance It looks like the attack speed increase of tanks is negligible (3 vs 2.8 wtf), but in a real-world example, Blizzard has just DOUBLED tank DPS against approaching banelings. That's fucking gigantic. Nice, tanks have doubled the DPS of a sieged tanks against banes coming to kill it. But if the banes don't hit the immobile tank, 0.06 seconds later the DPS is exactly the same as pre-patch. So the only way to make use of it is to have marines stand in the space that banes travel in 0.06 seconds -__- Or you know, they will kill something Zerglings and Banelings 0,06 seconds before they manage to deal some damage to the Tanks or Kill Marines. What that guy posted is just one example, they are probably a lot more that will be more significant in time.
Yes, exactly. The overall siege DPS of tanks isn't all that different, but that defensive volley against an approaching zerg was just doubled against banelings. That's huge. Two volleys instead of one when anything with the same speed as banes approaches. If the tanks immediately got surrounded by lings before because the marines were killed - but now, the Marines are alive because there were two volleys instead of one, your tanks are now alive instead of dead. That's a massive game swing that can't be quantified in a ".2 attack speed increase" statistic.
Who knows what other interactions might be affected by this, once we start doing the math and playing things out in the real world?
My main point, of course, is to freaking play the game before crying on forums about the changes not being what you wanted. That's what the WoW forums are for.
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I think it´s pretty reasonable, that protoss players want to sell us the fact, that mech is TOTALLY viable. In the end, it means higher winrates for them, when terrans start playing strategies, that are meant to fail from the start.
I played a neat mech build back in WoL, but it was more a 2base allin. Tank/BFH/Marine allin off 2base. It worked well from time to time. But whenever it didn´t kill, I could see very well, that you can´t win with mech on equal footing against toss. And with Photon overcharge, there is no way of a successful tankbased allin against toss.
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That guy suggesting a marine nerf. Do you realize the marine is one of the only units with an actual micro capability? One of the only units in the game that has a decent skill cap? Nerf marines and you kill (even more) SC2 as an eSport.
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On November 13 2013 00:37 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:23 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 12 2013 23:47 Crownlol wrote:On November 12 2013 23:24 -Celestial- wrote:
This thread...it really is amazing how much a number of Terrans on these forums balance whine. Whine when winrates are good for them, whine when winrates are even, whine when they're evenly represented at tournaments, whine when they're dominating representation at tournaments, whine when they're dominating the tournaments themselves...it never ends! And somehow its still justifiable in all circumstances to whine about other races being OP and always play the victim.
Anyway as for the patch, its ok I guess. The tank buff is nice. Problem is the fundamental problem with Terran still hasn't been addressed though...the marine needs to be nerfed and everything else rebalanced around it. THAT'S when you'll see more diverse options; when the marine isn't a cheap, low-supply, quick to build, catch-all answer to just about everything. Nerf the marine and you can buff probably the majority of the rest of the Terran arsenal; but Blizzard has never wanted to touch the marine for some strange reason. I, too, am shocked at the amount of Terran crybabies. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the Marine, and everyone knows you're right. But can you imagine the tears if they nerfed it? I still just can't get over how Stupid of a comment this is about marines. Lets Recap shall we***ALL INSTANCES WITH NO MICRO ***: 1 Oracle > 5 Marines 1 Stalker > 2 Marines 1 Zealot > 3 Marines 1 Immortal > 4 Marines Archon > Marines Colo > Marines Templar > Marines I know this is kind of a Troll Post but the Comment before was Absolutely backwards I just can't take this kind of ridiculousness ...... If you lose three marines to one zealot it is unlikely that you are good at starcraft
I'm not going to try and say I have ever lost 3 marines to 1 zealot or even 2 marines to 1 zealot but I thought the Giant ****ALL INSTANCES WITH NO MICRO*** sign would have caught your attention..........................
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Arrrgh too much rage for a serious post. Stop beta testing, that's it. Argh.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 13 2013 00:38 FirstGear wrote:
I hate how people say terran just spam tier 1 units until they win. Good luck playing tvp without vikings or ghosts. Medivacs and mines sure as heck arent tier 1 too. What unit are they meant to spam other than bio? - warhounds were removed, hellbats were nerfed, the other units are gas intensive enough they cant be spammed and tend to be quite slow/immobile.
I think FOrGG makes hellbats work quite well, actually,
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what the fuck is wrong in david kims mind???
I'm quitting sc2 now.
mods, you can ban me, i'm not looking in this forum anymore.
User was banned for this post.
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On November 13 2013 00:43 TeeTS wrote:
I think it´s pretty reasonable, that protoss players want to sell us the fact, that mech is TOTALLY viable. In the end, it means higher winrates for them, when terrans start playing strategies, that are meant to fail from the start.
I played a neat mech build back in WoL, but it was more a 2base allin. Tank/BFH/Marine allin off 2base. It worked well from time to time. But whenever it didn´t kill, I could see very well, that you can´t win with mech on equal footing against toss.
Why are you acting like Protoss players are sitting here, wringing our hands at the poor Terran's misfortune? "Gwahaha!" we say, as we drunkenly half-memorize some all-ins and win game after game against the hardworking and downtrodden Terran opponents.
We want Mech to be viable. It's more fun to play against an opponent that has multiple strategies, and it's sure as hell more fun to watch. We're not your enemies here. No one is trying to sell you on anything.
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On November 13 2013 00:44 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:38 FirstGear wrote:
I hate how people say terran just spam tier 1 units until they win. Good luck playing tvp without vikings or ghosts. Medivacs and mines sure as heck arent tier 1 too. What unit are they meant to spam other than bio? - warhounds were removed, hellbats were nerfed, the other units are gas intensive enough they cant be spammed and tend to be quite slow/immobile. I think FOrGG makes hellbats work quite well, actually,
I think FOrGG is, or was at least, on of the best mechanical players in the game. And still he has absolute 0 results. That he can own some random dudes on european ladder with mech, is nice for him. But once he hits an opponent, who actually knows how to play the game and has at least a somehow similar mechanical skillset, he gets rolled over.
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On November 13 2013 00:44 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:37 Zealously wrote:On November 13 2013 00:23 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 12 2013 23:47 Crownlol wrote:On November 12 2013 23:24 -Celestial- wrote:
This thread...it really is amazing how much a number of Terrans on these forums balance whine. Whine when winrates are good for them, whine when winrates are even, whine when they're evenly represented at tournaments, whine when they're dominating representation at tournaments, whine when they're dominating the tournaments themselves...it never ends! And somehow its still justifiable in all circumstances to whine about other races being OP and always play the victim.
Anyway as for the patch, its ok I guess. The tank buff is nice. Problem is the fundamental problem with Terran still hasn't been addressed though...the marine needs to be nerfed and everything else rebalanced around it. THAT'S when you'll see more diverse options; when the marine isn't a cheap, low-supply, quick to build, catch-all answer to just about everything. Nerf the marine and you can buff probably the majority of the rest of the Terran arsenal; but Blizzard has never wanted to touch the marine for some strange reason. I, too, am shocked at the amount of Terran crybabies. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the Marine, and everyone knows you're right. But can you imagine the tears if they nerfed it? I still just can't get over how Stupid of a comment this is about marines. Lets Recap shall we***ALL INSTANCES WITH NO MICRO ***: 1 Oracle > 5 Marines 1 Stalker > 2 Marines 1 Zealot > 3 Marines 1 Immortal > 4 Marines Archon > Marines Colo > Marines Templar > Marines I know this is kind of a Troll Post but the Comment before was Absolutely backwards I just can't take this kind of ridiculousness ...... If you lose three marines to one zealot it is unlikely that you are good at starcraft I'm not going to try and say I have ever lost 3 marines to 1 zealot or even 2 marines to 1 zealot but I thought the Giant ****ALL INSTANCES WITH NO MICRO*** sign would have caught your attention..........................
lol you just simply CAN'T justify anything by slapping a "no micro" warning on top of it. Everyone at any level in starcraft micros lol You're removing an essential part of the game to prove a silly point. I don't agree with nerfing the marine (lol), but ya, I laugh any time anyone tries to make a point by saying "no micro"
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 13 2013 00:44 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:37 Zealously wrote:On November 13 2013 00:23 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 12 2013 23:47 Crownlol wrote:On November 12 2013 23:24 -Celestial- wrote:
This thread...it really is amazing how much a number of Terrans on these forums balance whine. Whine when winrates are good for them, whine when winrates are even, whine when they're evenly represented at tournaments, whine when they're dominating representation at tournaments, whine when they're dominating the tournaments themselves...it never ends! And somehow its still justifiable in all circumstances to whine about other races being OP and always play the victim.
Anyway as for the patch, its ok I guess. The tank buff is nice. Problem is the fundamental problem with Terran still hasn't been addressed though...the marine needs to be nerfed and everything else rebalanced around it. THAT'S when you'll see more diverse options; when the marine isn't a cheap, low-supply, quick to build, catch-all answer to just about everything. Nerf the marine and you can buff probably the majority of the rest of the Terran arsenal; but Blizzard has never wanted to touch the marine for some strange reason. I, too, am shocked at the amount of Terran crybabies. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the Marine, and everyone knows you're right. But can you imagine the tears if they nerfed it? I still just can't get over how Stupid of a comment this is about marines. Lets Recap shall we***ALL INSTANCES WITH NO MICRO ***: 1 Oracle > 5 Marines 1 Stalker > 2 Marines 1 Zealot > 3 Marines 1 Immortal > 4 Marines Archon > Marines Colo > Marines Templar > Marines I know this is kind of a Troll Post but the Comment before was Absolutely backwards I just can't take this kind of ridiculousness ...... If you lose three marines to one zealot it is unlikely that you are good at starcraft I'm not going to try and say I have ever lost 3 marines to 1 zealot or even 2 marines to 1 zealot but I thought the Giant ****ALL INSTANCES WITH NO MICRO*** sign would have caught your attention..........................
Well why the fuck would you not micro bio? It's like saying banshees are OP because they can kill an infinite amount of zealots. But that doesn't happen because there are ways to prevent it from happening. Rolling 100 banelings into Mineski's also murders you, so you don't. Lets not apply some unrealistic condition that makes terran look worse in a discussion - it won't help anyone.
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That Oracle is so stupid from the TvP perspective. Terran literally can't touch Toss until stim or medivacs are out, while Toss has so many little all-ins/attacks that T has to worry about...I think the Oracle change would be fine if that damn planetary nexus didn't come until the ~8 minute mark
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 13 2013 00:46 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:44 Zealously wrote:On November 13 2013 00:38 FirstGear wrote:
I hate how people say terran just spam tier 1 units until they win. Good luck playing tvp without vikings or ghosts. Medivacs and mines sure as heck arent tier 1 too. What unit are they meant to spam other than bio? - warhounds were removed, hellbats were nerfed, the other units are gas intensive enough they cant be spammed and tend to be quite slow/immobile. I think FOrGG makes hellbats work quite well, actually, I think FOrGG is, or was at least, on of the best mechanical players in the game. And still he has absolute 0 results. That he can own some random dudes on european ladder with mech, is nice for him. But once he hits an opponent, who actually knows how to play the game and has at least a somehow similar mechanical skillset, he gets rolled over.
I believe it was against Mana in some kind of tournament setting.
Edit: not sure. Will check
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Yeah well, then you would be asking for nerfs to immortals, buffs to siege tanks to go back to full damage, or whatever is needed. The speed change does absolutely nothing for mech on TvP aside holding all ins while you are playing bio, which it already does.
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On November 13 2013 00:48 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:46 TeeTS wrote:On November 13 2013 00:44 Zealously wrote:On November 13 2013 00:38 FirstGear wrote:
I hate how people say terran just spam tier 1 units until they win. Good luck playing tvp without vikings or ghosts. Medivacs and mines sure as heck arent tier 1 too. What unit are they meant to spam other than bio? - warhounds were removed, hellbats were nerfed, the other units are gas intensive enough they cant be spammed and tend to be quite slow/immobile. I think FOrGG makes hellbats work quite well, actually, I think FOrGG is, or was at least, on of the best mechanical players in the game. And still he has absolute 0 results. That he can own some random dudes on european ladder with mech, is nice for him. But once he hits an opponent, who actually knows how to play the game and has at least a somehow similar mechanical skillset, he gets rolled over. I believe it was against Mana in some kind of tournament setting. Edit: not sure. Will check
Nothing against Mana, since I really like his personality, but in some games, he is like the epitome of bad decision making in SC2.
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On November 13 2013 00:37 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:23 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 12 2013 23:47 Crownlol wrote:On November 12 2013 23:24 -Celestial- wrote:
This thread...it really is amazing how much a number of Terrans on these forums balance whine. Whine when winrates are good for them, whine when winrates are even, whine when they're evenly represented at tournaments, whine when they're dominating representation at tournaments, whine when they're dominating the tournaments themselves...it never ends! And somehow its still justifiable in all circumstances to whine about other races being OP and always play the victim.
Anyway as for the patch, its ok I guess. The tank buff is nice. Problem is the fundamental problem with Terran still hasn't been addressed though...the marine needs to be nerfed and everything else rebalanced around it. THAT'S when you'll see more diverse options; when the marine isn't a cheap, low-supply, quick to build, catch-all answer to just about everything. Nerf the marine and you can buff probably the majority of the rest of the Terran arsenal; but Blizzard has never wanted to touch the marine for some strange reason. I, too, am shocked at the amount of Terran crybabies. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the Marine, and everyone knows you're right. But can you imagine the tears if they nerfed it? I still just can't get over how Stupid of a comment this is about marines. Lets Recap shall we***ALL INSTANCES WITH NO MICRO ***: 1 Oracle > 5 Marines 1 Stalker > 2 Marines 1 Zealot > 3 Marines 1 Immortal > 4 Marines Archon > Marines Colo > Marines Templar > Marines I know this is kind of a Troll Post but the Comment before was Absolutely backwards I just can't take this kind of ridiculousness ...... If you lose three marines to one zealot it is unlikely that you are good at starcraft
I lose 3 marines to 1 Zealot... I'm Platinum/Diamond. My micro is terrible when it matters  Can't kill 1 Zealot with 2 Marines
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EPT
