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On November 13 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Someone on Battle.net made an interesting example: Show nested quote +Mongoose: For those of you who want a concrete example of how the siege tank change could affect things:
Speed of upgraded banelings on creep: 3.84 Range of tanks: 13 with spotting Time banelings need to move 11 distance on creep (past the 2 minimum range of the tank): 2.86 seconds Number of shots pre-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 1 Number of shots post-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 2 Thats just one example, and obviously there are millions of unit interactions more complex than that, but even so it shows at least one case where the buff will definitely be useful in helping Tank viability.
Holy shit, actual analysis instead of rampant whining?
Although, that's a really interesting analysis. At first glance It looks like the attack speed increase of tanks is negligible (3 vs 2.8 wtf), but in a real-world example, Blizzard has just DOUBLED tank DPS against approaching banelings. That's fucking gigantic.
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On November 13 2013 00:12 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 23:56 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 12 2013 23:47 Crownlol wrote:On November 12 2013 23:24 -Celestial- wrote:
This thread...it really is amazing how much a number of Terrans on these forums balance whine. Whine when winrates are good for them, whine when winrates are even, whine when they're evenly represented at tournaments, whine when they're dominating representation at tournaments, whine when they're dominating the tournaments themselves...it never ends! And somehow its still justifiable in all circumstances to whine about other races being OP and always play the victim.
Anyway as for the patch, its ok I guess. The tank buff is nice. Problem is the fundamental problem with Terran still hasn't been addressed though...the marine needs to be nerfed and everything else rebalanced around it. THAT'S when you'll see more diverse options; when the marine isn't a cheap, low-supply, quick to build, catch-all answer to just about everything. Nerf the marine and you can buff probably the majority of the rest of the Terran arsenal; but Blizzard has never wanted to touch the marine for some strange reason. I, too, am shocked at the amount of Terran crybabies. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the Marine, and everyone knows you're right. But can you imagine the tears if they nerfed it? Yes exactly why don't we just erase Terran as a race all-together? If you have problems with marine then you need to rethink your style as a protoss.... there isn't a thing Protoss has that doesn't completely walk Marines at various points of the game...... Terran crybabies are out because of the massive destruction of the race we are seeing at hand.... I will be surprised to see if we only suffer a 10% loss in win-loss ratio. Which is what I'm predicting Terran will be at 40% winrate across the board for a long time................ Edit: Lets just be honest as well EVERYTIME Terran is given something small anything at all ANYTHING it immediately gets nerfed / removed............... The Reality is Blizzard hates Terran and its mechanics along with apparently the players..... As it is, Terran is the only race that can just spam t1 units into the lategame. MMM? Still tournament viable.
The only tournament viable way to play. Fault's at blizzards because the non mirror match ups are balanced, but only if the terran plays MMMX. Terrans are FORCED to spam t1 and you are saying it like it's an option. And your example about WCS EU players getting demolished by 10 minutes pushes, is like, yeah, right, shit happens. Like some dude losing to a proxy oracle, proxy immortals or blink all in. You are saying it's overpowered there. Who is being a crybaby for fucks sake.
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Why nerf widow mine? Why not just buff the tank and leave the bio mine strategy still viable. Were they worried that tank and mine play together would be too strong had they not nerfed the mine?
Also, I thought the whole idea of making mech stronger was a notion to make it a viable strategy on a pro level. Nerfing terrans current bio based main strategy while buffing mech/tanks/air only puts that same main strategy in risk of being replaced by mech intirelyand nobody wants that. This patch seems odd to be but I don't wanna say too much until we see how this plays out.
Mech with air-support ought to become a little more interesting in TvP now though. I'm for one is sick of playing a matchup where, as someone put it in an earlier post, protoss has 9 lives and now seems to be a better time than any to seriously make an effort with Mech in TvP.
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Also, it'll be interesting to see how common Hallucinated Oracles become. Not quite as quick and sturdy as Phoenixes, but still pretty damn fast, and unlike Phoenixes they can be used to play mindgames, trick defenders out of position, and force units.
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On November 12 2013 23:47 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 23:24 -Celestial- wrote:
This thread...it really is amazing how much a number of Terrans on these forums balance whine. Whine when winrates are good for them, whine when winrates are even, whine when they're evenly represented at tournaments, whine when they're dominating representation at tournaments, whine when they're dominating the tournaments themselves...it never ends! And somehow its still justifiable in all circumstances to whine about other races being OP and always play the victim.
Anyway as for the patch, its ok I guess. The tank buff is nice. Problem is the fundamental problem with Terran still hasn't been addressed though...the marine needs to be nerfed and everything else rebalanced around it. THAT'S when you'll see more diverse options; when the marine isn't a cheap, low-supply, quick to build, catch-all answer to just about everything. Nerf the marine and you can buff probably the majority of the rest of the Terran arsenal; but Blizzard has never wanted to touch the marine for some strange reason. I, too, am shocked at the amount of Terran crybabies. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the Marine, and everyone knows you're right. But can you imagine the tears if they nerfed it?
I still just can't get over how Stupid of a comment this is about marines.
Lets Recap shall we***ALL INSTANCES WITH NO MICRO ***:
1 Oracle > 5 Marines
1 Stalker > 2 Marines
1 Zealot > 3 Marines
1 Immortal > 4 Marines
Archon > Marines
Colo > Marines
Templar > Marines
I know this is kind of a Troll Post but the Comment before was Absolutely backwards I just can't take this kind of ridiculousness ......
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On November 13 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Someone on Battle.net made an interesting example: Show nested quote +Mongoose: For those of you who want a concrete example of how the siege tank change could affect things:
Speed of upgraded banelings on creep: 3.84 Range of tanks: 13 with spotting Time banelings need to move 11 distance on creep (past the 2 minimum range of the tank): 2.86 seconds Number of shots pre-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 1 Number of shots post-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 2 Thats just one example, and obviously there are millions of unit interactions more complex than that, but even so it shows at least one case where the buff will definitely be useful in helping Tank viability.
Calculations like this would be way more interesting if tanks were already a unit that was slightly underused but still a viable unit, say similar to the immortal. A very slight buff like this to the immortal could very well make it a much more interesting unit.
However if you take the tank that is nonexistant outside TvT and give it a buff like this, it just feels like the balance team has no clue what they are doing. Make the unit viable first, then work on fine tuning it like this.
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So in the matchup that terrans have been complaining about for 6+ months they get a buff and we get a nerf. And TvZ was fine, the matchup was balanced, I understand that it's frustrating but this nerf is WAY too heavy. Terran now has 0 pressure against protoss, we have to turtle until protoss is at its strongest. Holy shit this is dumb.
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On November 13 2013 00:23 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 23:47 Crownlol wrote:On November 12 2013 23:24 -Celestial- wrote:
This thread...it really is amazing how much a number of Terrans on these forums balance whine. Whine when winrates are good for them, whine when winrates are even, whine when they're evenly represented at tournaments, whine when they're dominating representation at tournaments, whine when they're dominating the tournaments themselves...it never ends! And somehow its still justifiable in all circumstances to whine about other races being OP and always play the victim.
Anyway as for the patch, its ok I guess. The tank buff is nice. Problem is the fundamental problem with Terran still hasn't been addressed though...the marine needs to be nerfed and everything else rebalanced around it. THAT'S when you'll see more diverse options; when the marine isn't a cheap, low-supply, quick to build, catch-all answer to just about everything. Nerf the marine and you can buff probably the majority of the rest of the Terran arsenal; but Blizzard has never wanted to touch the marine for some strange reason. I, too, am shocked at the amount of Terran crybabies. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the Marine, and everyone knows you're right. But can you imagine the tears if they nerfed it? I still just can't get over how Stupid of a comment this is about marines. Lets Recap shall we***ALL INSTANCES WITH NO MICRO ***: 1 Oracle > 5 Marines 1 Stalker > 2 Marines 1 Zealot > 3 Marines 1 Immortal > 4 Marines Archon > Marines Colo > Marines Templar > Marines I know this is kind of a Troll Post but the Comment before was Absolutely backwards I just can't take this kind of ridiculousness ......
What a pointless post. Marines are the best unit in the game - accept it. Stim Marine + Marauder is absolutely ridiculously good.
Please address some of the more salient points of the thread (and my other posts) before replying with whine to a comment about whining.
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On November 13 2013 00:25 9-BiT wrote:
So in the matchup that terrans have been complaining about for 6+ months they get a buff and we get a nerf. And TvZ was fine, the matchup was balanced, I understand that it's frustrating but this nerf is WAY too heavy. Terran now has 0 pressure against protoss, we have to turtle until protoss is at its strongest. Holy shit this is dumb.
Most of the TL threads have no claimed that TvP is imba, but rather that the matchup is stale. I totally agree with the point that the matchup is stale, but winrates suggest that the matchup is balanced.
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1 Oracle > 5 Marines
1 Stalker > 2 Marines
1 Zealot > 3 Marines
1 Immortal > 4 Marines
1 Oracle is 150/150. 5 marines is just 250 minerals. And gas is worth more than minerals.
1 Stalker is 125/50. 2 marines is 100 minerals.
1 Zealot can be kited to death effortlessly by marines with even basic micro (and by the time charge is out you can get marauders with conc shells), and unlike marines zealot damage scales horribly in groups since only the frontline can attack.
1 Immortal is 250/100. 4 marines are 200 minerals.
What was your point again? That when you actually look at cost against cost, marines are still ludicrously efficient against everything except Tier 3 AOE?
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On November 13 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Also, it'll be interesting to see how common Hallucinated Oracles become. Not quite as quick and sturdy as Phoenixes, but still pretty damn fast, and unlike Phoenixes they can be used to play mindgames, trick defenders out of position, and force units.
Run some calculations for how faster you will kill your bio against chargelots, or how much better is against immortals ;p. Or how it also helps against swarmhosts or vipers. In non mirror match ups, the tank change is just to make terran safer against all ins.
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On November 13 2013 00:26 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:23 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 12 2013 23:47 Crownlol wrote:On November 12 2013 23:24 -Celestial- wrote:
This thread...it really is amazing how much a number of Terrans on these forums balance whine. Whine when winrates are good for them, whine when winrates are even, whine when they're evenly represented at tournaments, whine when they're dominating representation at tournaments, whine when they're dominating the tournaments themselves...it never ends! And somehow its still justifiable in all circumstances to whine about other races being OP and always play the victim.
Anyway as for the patch, its ok I guess. The tank buff is nice. Problem is the fundamental problem with Terran still hasn't been addressed though...the marine needs to be nerfed and everything else rebalanced around it. THAT'S when you'll see more diverse options; when the marine isn't a cheap, low-supply, quick to build, catch-all answer to just about everything. Nerf the marine and you can buff probably the majority of the rest of the Terran arsenal; but Blizzard has never wanted to touch the marine for some strange reason. I, too, am shocked at the amount of Terran crybabies. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the Marine, and everyone knows you're right. But can you imagine the tears if they nerfed it? I still just can't get over how Stupid of a comment this is about marines. Lets Recap shall we***ALL INSTANCES WITH NO MICRO ***: 1 Oracle > 5 Marines 1 Stalker > 2 Marines 1 Zealot > 3 Marines 1 Immortal > 4 Marines Archon > Marines Colo > Marines Templar > Marines I know this is kind of a Troll Post but the Comment before was Absolutely backwards I just can't take this kind of ridiculousness ...... What a pointless post. Marines are the best unit in the game - accept it. Stim Marine + Marauder is absolutely ridiculously good. Please address some of the more salient points of the thread (and my other posts) before replying with whine to a comment about whining.
I don't think theeye are that good against someone who can also micro his army.
MMM vs glingbane without micro ? Z win
MMM vs Colossus/zealot ? P win
It's always the same, you lose because the guy against you micro better. And FYI, medivacs, viking and ghost are not T1. It's like saying you make a shit ton of zealot or gling in your compo. Lol.
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On November 12 2013 08:57 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 08:54 SamirDuran wrote:
didn't DK saw what an oracle can be when it was putted in the hands of good protoss players such as sOs? You mean getting picked off or shut down almost right away in nearly every game? If the motivation behind the Oracle buff is that it is too slow and fragile for even very skilled players to consistently keep it alive, then sOs' games were a decent demonstration of that being the case. Of course, I think basing everything one one tournament is more than a little sily. But if you look around at Protoss play in general on the pro level, Oracles as a unit that remains alive and active throughout the game isn't really something we see almost ever.
You keep saying this but you really don't understand anything. The oracle forces terran to turtle, and wait until protoss is at its strongest to move out on the map. I don't give a fuck how much damage it does, it is the impact on the terran's play.
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On November 13 2013 00:21 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Someone on Battle.net made an interesting example: Mongoose: For those of you who want a concrete example of how the siege tank change could affect things:
Speed of upgraded banelings on creep: 3.84 Range of tanks: 13 with spotting Time banelings need to move 11 distance on creep (past the 2 minimum range of the tank): 2.86 seconds Number of shots pre-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 1 Number of shots post-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 2 Thats just one example, and obviously there are millions of unit interactions more complex than that, but even so it shows at least one case where the buff will definitely be useful in helping Tank viability. Holy shit, actual analysis instead of rampant whining? Although, that's a really interesting analysis. At first glance It looks like the attack speed increase of tanks is negligible (3 vs 2.8 wtf), but in a real-world example, Blizzard has just DOUBLED tank DPS against approaching banelings. That's fucking gigantic.
Exactly lol And banelings on creep are pretty damn fast... It likely works like this in most cases.
It's just like upgrades. Anybody looking in on an upgrade would be like "oh, +1 attack, that's just 1 extra damage, that doesn't mean that much" until they go +1 zealot against lings and see what MASSIVE difference it makes. (exageration but you get my point)
Problem is people here are never willing to look beyond the simple facts and do analysis. They just like to have excuses to cry and complain. Fact is Blizzard does A LOT of checking and testing to see what impact changes will actually have, while all forum posters just sit in their chair without playing and/or watching a single high level game with the changes spittin' crap they can't back up at things they don't understand.
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On November 13 2013 00:21 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Someone on Battle.net made an interesting example: Mongoose: For those of you who want a concrete example of how the siege tank change could affect things:
Speed of upgraded banelings on creep: 3.84 Range of tanks: 13 with spotting Time banelings need to move 11 distance on creep (past the 2 minimum range of the tank): 2.86 seconds Number of shots pre-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 1 Number of shots post-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 2 Thats just one example, and obviously there are millions of unit interactions more complex than that, but even so it shows at least one case where the buff will definitely be useful in helping Tank viability. Holy shit, actual analysis instead of rampant whining? Although, that's a really interesting analysis. At first glance It looks like the attack speed increase of tanks is negligible (3 vs 2.8 wtf), but in a real-world example, Blizzard has just DOUBLED tank DPS against approaching banelings. That's fucking gigantic.
Nice, tanks have doubled the DPS of a sieged tanks against banes coming to kill it. But if the banes don't hit the immobile tank, 0.06 seconds later the DPS is exactly the same as pre-patch. So the only way to make use of it is to have marines stand in the space that banes travel in 0.060.2 seconds -__-
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On November 13 2013 00:21 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Someone on Battle.net made an interesting example: Mongoose: For those of you who want a concrete example of how the siege tank change could affect things:
Speed of upgraded banelings on creep: 3.84 Range of tanks: 13 with spotting Time banelings need to move 11 distance on creep (past the 2 minimum range of the tank): 2.86 seconds Number of shots pre-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 1 Number of shots post-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 2 Thats just one example, and obviously there are millions of unit interactions more complex than that, but even so it shows at least one case where the buff will definitely be useful in helping Tank viability. Holy shit, actual analysis instead of rampant whining? Although, that's a really interesting analysis. At first glance It looks like the attack speed increase of tanks is negligible (3 vs 2.8 wtf), but in a real-world example, Blizzard has just DOUBLED tank DPS against approaching banelings. That's fucking gigantic.
That´s in a situation of 1 tank vs 1 baneling. In situations with groups of tanks and groups of banelings then the faster attack speed will help the tanks, but it won´t be a double increase.
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Nerf the Marine? So many lolz here.
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I'm sorry I don't mean to be taking my rage out in ridiculous ways especially against protoss players that have their own crap to deal with when playing the game. This is just EXTREMELY frustrating because if you think about it Oracles are already a Unit that can end the game if you don't scout it soon enough...... That costs 150/150 with a C + A -Move yet Protoss gets a buff for their HOTS unit but we get Nerfed Hellbats and Now Nerfed Mines and a Removal of Warhound.
Terran is going to have to go 2 Rax Before FE just to stay safe against a 5:05 Proxied oracle now with the new speed / Acceleration buff.....
1 Rax Reaper into Reactor will only allow your 4th marine to come out at like 5:11 or something like that so the game is going to go lopsided hardcore in Protoss favor from here. Its not your fault and I apologize for being so crazy but just put yourself in a terrans shoe for once and realize the crazy nerfs that have happened since HOTS and how it feels like everything we get eventually gets nerfed one way or another.......
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On November 13 2013 00:12 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 23:56 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 12 2013 23:47 Crownlol wrote:On November 12 2013 23:24 -Celestial- wrote:
This thread...it really is amazing how much a number of Terrans on these forums balance whine. Whine when winrates are good for them, whine when winrates are even, whine when they're evenly represented at tournaments, whine when they're dominating representation at tournaments, whine when they're dominating the tournaments themselves...it never ends! And somehow its still justifiable in all circumstances to whine about other races being OP and always play the victim.
Anyway as for the patch, its ok I guess. The tank buff is nice. Problem is the fundamental problem with Terran still hasn't been addressed though...the marine needs to be nerfed and everything else rebalanced around it. THAT'S when you'll see more diverse options; when the marine isn't a cheap, low-supply, quick to build, catch-all answer to just about everything. Nerf the marine and you can buff probably the majority of the rest of the Terran arsenal; but Blizzard has never wanted to touch the marine for some strange reason. I, too, am shocked at the amount of Terran crybabies. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the Marine, and everyone knows you're right. But can you imagine the tears if they nerfed it? Yes exactly why don't we just erase Terran as a race all-together? If you have problems with marine then you need to rethink your style as a protoss.... there isn't a thing Protoss has that doesn't completely walk Marines at various points of the game...... Terran crybabies are out because of the massive destruction of the race we are seeing at hand.... I will be surprised to see if we only suffer a 10% loss in win-loss ratio. Which is what I'm predicting Terran will be at 40% winrate across the board for a long time................ Edit: Lets just be honest as well EVERYTIME Terran is given something small anything at all ANYTHING it immediately gets nerfed / removed............... The Reality is Blizzard hates Terran and its mechanics along with apparently the players..... As it is, Terran is the only race that can just spam t1 units into the lategame. MMM? Still tournament viable.
How on earth is marine marauder medivac tier 1. Tier 1 marines are slow and weak without upgrades or healing support... Besides protoss can use zealot warpins just fine lategame. Same with zerglings.
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On November 13 2013 00:34 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 00:21 Crownlol wrote:On November 13 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Someone on Battle.net made an interesting example: Mongoose: For those of you who want a concrete example of how the siege tank change could affect things:
Speed of upgraded banelings on creep: 3.84 Range of tanks: 13 with spotting Time banelings need to move 11 distance on creep (past the 2 minimum range of the tank): 2.86 seconds Number of shots pre-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 1 Number of shots post-patch tank can fire on approaching banelings: 2 Thats just one example, and obviously there are millions of unit interactions more complex than that, but even so it shows at least one case where the buff will definitely be useful in helping Tank viability. Holy shit, actual analysis instead of rampant whining? Although, that's a really interesting analysis. At first glance It looks like the attack speed increase of tanks is negligible (3 vs 2.8 wtf), but in a real-world example, Blizzard has just DOUBLED tank DPS against approaching banelings. That's fucking gigantic. Nice, tanks have doubled the DPS of a sieged tanks against banes coming to kill it. But if the banes don't hit the immobile tank, 0.06 seconds later the DPS is exactly the same as pre-patch. So the only way to make use of it is to have marines stand in the space that banes travel in 0.06 seconds -__-
They've doubled the DPS of banelings directed towards the tanks. Which is the same direction as your Marines. All you have to do is back your Marines up into tank fire, and you now have double the siege damage you used to have during that baneling push. Which was the main problem against ling bling right? Getting 1a'd by that wave?
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EPT
