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Don.681
Philippines189 Posts
A lot of people compare SC2 to basketball etc. The thing is, SC2 is more comparable to combat sports like boxing and mixed martial arts. You make your opponent quit, disable them or knock them out --not out-score them on points by doing an epic move to get that point or goal. Looking at SC2 this way will let you see how important APM is. Like most combat sports, SC2 needs both speed (APM) and technique (Accuracy, Strategy, Mind-Gaming and Execution). | ||
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
On June 07 2013 11:56 FallDownMarigold wrote: Er, I think you meant to reply to Qwyn heh. In any case... I'll chime in: I think it makes more sense to reverse that logic: He's winning against opponents better than me on a more consistent basis because his skill is better than my skill. His skill is not perfectly quantifiable, but it is certainly derived from extreme and artful mastery over fundamental aspects of the game. Qwyn very rightly highlights mechanics being one of these core components of playing the game. To return to that logic, because his mechanics among other aspects of playing the game are superior to mine, he is more skillful and thus he is able to beat better players than I am able to beat. I'm sure you'd agree with that. To the other stuff you wrote, perhaps some model could closely approximate 'skill'. But to *perfectly* describe it via math wouldn't seem possible provided an understanding of what Qwyn was saying. yes it is implied that it is not perfect. game of imperfect information means that the games aren't perfectly deterministic. since skill is an abstract concept, i think it makes much more sense to think about it inferentially, and since the only way to 'check' your hypothesis of 'who is more skilled?' is to look at win rates against a set of players, it makes much more sense to think about it he way I do. otherwise it just becomes an argument of 'well this one thing is harder for me to do, thus, SKILL!!", which is what most people end up doing. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On June 07 2013 11:29 dreamsmasher wrote: he's more skillful than you because he's winning against opponents better than you on a more consistent basis. what i'm saying is that APM is just part of a skillset (it's not a complete picture), there are probably other metrics that can be developed if people actually spent time on it. in fact APM can probably be further broken down. i'm defining skill is WHATEVER set of variables that are highly predictive of success, not just APM or EPM, this implies other metrics not yet defined, etc... my post is theoretical, i'm saying that it is silly to assume that math cannot touch or capture the essence of 'skill'. i actually don't think your post contadicts mine that much at all. there is room for subjectivity in statistics. I guess we're just looking at two different things. You're looking at skill overall, I'm just saying that mechanics, a very large component of player skill, aren't very well represented by the APM/EPM tab and that a lot of the components of a strong mechanical player aren't conveyed in the reading. Math can convey and capture the essence of skill for sure. I'm in no way saying that the readings do not convey a general set of information. I'm just saying that at the highest level mechanics are too complicated to be simply expressed with an APM reading. I think you might be saying that too, we're just circling around a common view. FPVs for all! Come on OSL, show us some screen captures for PL! | ||
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RuFF_SC2
United States203 Posts
On June 06 2013 15:18 ROOTFayth wrote: lol you sound like Ruff who realistically is just not too good Says the guy who losses at mlg to my style and tournaments. Thanks bud. | ||
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Shade_FR
France378 Posts
Maybe it's taking too much space in the UI and the APM doesn't mater much anyway... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24885 Posts
For me the importance of APM, hand cams and all that is because gaming is a spectacle that is generally viewed, unlike other sports, without the direct input of the competitors being visible. The uninitiated don't find it impressive, because they aren't seeing the actual commands and directions that the players are inputting into the game. Micro is not impressive to a non-gamer, because they don't get how the player is doing it, if that makes sense. In 'real' sports you don't have this issue, because the actions that determine outcomes are all visible and in plain sight | ||
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MagnuMizer
Denmark384 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 17 2013 11:10 Wombat_NI wrote: Shameless plug of an old thread For me the importance of APM, hand cams and all that is because gaming is a spectacle that is generally viewed, unlike other sports, without the direct input of the competitors being visible. The uninitiated don't find it impressive, because they aren't seeing the actual commands and directions that the players are inputting into the game. Micro is not impressive to a non-gamer, because they don't get how the player is doing it, if that makes sense. In 'real' sports you don't have this issue, because the actions that determine outcomes are all visible and in plain sight I find that the better you get the higher your APM. However, I don't find that the reverse is true. The higher your APM does not correlate with you yourself getting better. This is because the speed that needs to increase is not the actions on the screen, but the actions off the screen. I love the idea of seeing the player's hands and body throughout a game. The sudden jump in ingame APM during high pitch battles. I remember a Puzzle vs Sheth match on GSL where Puzzle's blink micro made his APM shoot up to 400 (or was it 800) and it was amazing because the sudden spike in actions translated to actions on the screen (perfect blinks). I am totally cool with trying to find more ways to see a players actions instead of the game's actions. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24885 Posts
On June 17 2013 12:12 Thieving Magpie wrote: I find that the better you get the higher your APM. However, I don't find that the reverse is true. The higher your APM does not correlate with you yourself getting better. This is because the speed that needs to increase is not the actions on the screen, but the actions off the screen. I love the idea of seeing the player's hands and body throughout a game. The sudden jump in ingame APM during high pitch battles. I remember a Puzzle vs Sheth match on GSL where Puzzle's blink micro made his APM shoot up to 400 (or was it 800) and it was amazing because the sudden spike in actions translated to actions on the screen (perfect blinks). I am totally cool with trying to find more ways to see a players actions instead of the game's actions. 400apm while blinking is close to unbelievable to me, I can hit half that, if even and if I do I think I'm playing at my best. Puzzle has always been a good example of Protoss mechanical chops not scaling all that well and being visually impressive, iirc he plays at a good 270 APM, but to the observer cam and hell to many even on here he's just a 'solid' Protoss. There are totally good times to do such cuts as well, the opening 7/8 minutes of games has ample deadair that casters can sleepwalk through given how relatively stable openers have become. Speaking of observer cam, we need more FPVs. I recall at the WCS Season final one of the streams cut to Innovation's FPV for a bit, There's a lot of subtleties with mechanical efficiency, I find it fascinating. Had our annual, only real biggish SC LAN that we have last year. Literally every person hotkeys differently, and more intriguingly to me, everybody's hand position, wrist angles etc are all different. I mean that's something that a hardcore SC nerd probably finds interesting and is on their own in holding that view, but the uninitiated always find the handspeed impressive if nothing else in my experience. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
On June 06 2013 09:59 hp.Shell wrote: I remember back when BW was in proleague, almost every match the screen would switch over to ten or so seconds of each player's FPV. Before other FPVODs and snipealot, it was really spectacular to see. Little things like changing to ally/enemy colors (rather than default random ones) really left an impression on me. The better the player is, the more appreciation they will have for the cast, even if it isn't FPV. The viewer has more and more knowledge of the game. So instead of thinking "oh man that was a really great engagement" he thinks "wow, look at where he placed his second supply depot!" "check out the two-tank split!" "how can he possibly have this supply at 3minutes" etc. The casual viewer has none of this insight, so the major thing that will bring new viewers to the scene is not the APM, but how spectacular the particular game is that they see for the first time. People typically watch Boxer vs Yellow finals to get a feel for BW. There should be a standard game like that for SC2 that we can show people. What's mentioned in this about the FP pov is where you really connect people during a broadcast. Sure if you are explaining the skill in words to a person without the aid of a picture explaining APM is useful. During a broadcast however showing the players pov and showing the live shot of their hands flying on the keyboard like a piano player really gets the point across a lot better then showing APM during the broadcast. | ||
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midnight999
United States257 Posts
And APM =/= skill. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24885 Posts
There's a metric fuckton of subtlety behind that in terms of SC2 as a competitive activity, but in my anecdotal experiences it is the mechanical/speed side of things that really helps shatter the archetypal, negative images that pro gaming have among many. APM =/= skill no, but people trash the importance of high APM far too much. If I have to read another 'Oh I have low APM but I use innovative strategies' I will puke. Most of the times 'innovative strategy' means instead of copying the popular builds, you go all SC2 hipster and copy lesser known pro builds, and execute them worse than the people who came up with them, because they can't perform as many actions as quickly. For those of you who do come up with cool builds and styles on your own, or have low APM that wasn't a generalised bash btw! I find the same attitude abounds for those of us who are musicians as well. You don't need to play fast, or technically well to make great music that can speak to people. However, there are some forms of music that you can't play without some chops, and having every other Youtube video being spammed 'Speed =/= emotion' and other variants is fucking obnoxious. Just small-minded people who can't do something, and then subsequently claim it isn't something worth doing. | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On June 17 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote: 400apm while blinking is close to unbelievable to me, I can hit half that, if even and if I do I think I'm playing at my best. Puzzle has always been a good example of Protoss mechanical chops not scaling all that well and being visually impressive, iirc he plays at a good 270 APM, but to the observer cam and hell to many even on here he's just a 'solid' Protoss. There are totally good times to do such cuts as well, the opening 7/8 minutes of games has ample deadair that casters can sleepwalk through given how relatively stable openers have become. Speaking of observer cam, we need more FPVs. I recall at the WCS Season final one of the streams cut to Innovation's FPV for a bit, There's a lot of subtleties with mechanical efficiency, I find it fascinating. Had our annual, only real biggish SC LAN that we have last year. Literally every person hotkeys differently, and more intriguingly to me, everybody's hand position, wrist angles etc are all different. I mean that's something that a hardcore SC nerd probably finds interesting and is on their own in holding that view, but the uninitiated always find the handspeed impressive if nothing else in my experience. Fairly certain I recall an mlg replay of puzzle playing at 240ish eapm. That probably puts him in the 500apm realm. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24885 Posts
I think Puzzle was the fastest notable Protoss in his heyday, albeit before the Kespa influx so I'm not too sure now. Jesus I'm starting to feel like an old-hand, as I used to voraciously consume his streaming output when he was on Zenex. MLG used to keep average APM and all sorts of cool stats, not sure if they do anymore given how I just gave up on navigating their website. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 17 2013 14:22 DyEnasTy wrote: I am blown away that you actually think that 400 apm means 400 conscious actions per minute. You realize some of that is spam? It was below 400 before the fight, jumped to 400 during the fight, and dropped below 400 after the fight. The jump in speed is what made it cool. Big difference between in combat APM and macro APM. | ||
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Akusta
United States41 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24885 Posts
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
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kochanfe
Micronesia1338 Posts
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